Guild Wars 2

So I’ve swapped from playing zerker warrior to condi warriors and I’ve really started taking a liking to playing condi. I recently got into an argument w/ some people about warriors who play condi in PvE and I had to ask.

Which do you prefer and why. (Heavy details and explanation would be very helpful.)

The reason I’m asking this is because I thought this game was more “play what you want” then “play whats the best”. I understand for situations for global bosses and such that condi isn’t really great, but what about playing in dungeons?

Ramp up time.

People overwriting your conditions.

Immunities / condition cleanses.

No benefit from all buffs.

Not to mention warriors just aren’t that good at stacking conditions in general. Bleed is the only condition that gets up to a very high amount and warriors can get, like, 6-7 stacks tops. By comparison, a condition-specced grenade engineer can get to 25 stacks solo and he STILL can’t beat out his zerk counterpart in raw damage.

And yeah, while we’re all free to run whatever we want, some people like to be efficient rather than to roleplay. Moreover, if we all just ran what we wanted and didn’t care about objective efficiency, there wouldn’t be much to talk about at all, it’d just be “check out my build I like the way my gun looks when i shoot it” followed by “cool bro, i like my hammer skin too”.

Why the heck do people even bother asking what’s better if their concern is “play what you want”?

If you stretch that “play what you want” definition so far, no game will ever satisfy you (I want mount in GW2!!).

You can run any build and complete all contents. Some builds are more efficient, some builds are not. Obviously, the most optimum and the most efficient builds are the best. The definition isn’t up to debate, but utility vs damage can alter the set-up slightly into deciding which is the best.

TL;DR

No condi unless maybe you’re soloing Lupicus on a Necro or something niche like that.

xallever.1874:

Why the heck do people even bother asking what’s better if their concern is “play what you want”?

Expanding one’s horizon thanks to the friendly community, so as to not remain near-sighted and possibly “find out what you really want to play”?

xallever.1874:

You can run any build and complete all contents. Some builds are more efficient, some builds are not. Obviously, the most optimum and the most efficient builds are the best. The definition isn’t up to debate, but utility vs damage can alter the set-up slightly into deciding which is the best.

Efficiency relates to how well a player can leverage the potential of a build in a given situation – it’s not equal to the potential of the build itself, considered independently of the situation or the skill of the player.

As you have pointed out, it is an important criteria to having fun. No one loves dying again and again, or if one is skilled enough to not die, hitting the same mob for ages. Yet, the search for full efficiency can, in my experience, significantly hinder other sources of fun, like sharing a good moment with friends who make mistakes. YMMV.

Condition builds work for most PvE content, but in some circumstances, already cited in the thread, they unfortunately do not (foes immune to conditions, conditions caps already reached…). That should not prevent anyone from experimenting, and adjusting when unfavorable conditions are met.

Regards.

Nobody is stopping him from playing condi if he really wants to?

Going to play devils advocate here. If there are no other condition built classes in your party its going to be ok. If there are then its not going to be ok. When I say ok I mean it will work, I am not going to debate about how well it will work.

Condis are mainly a PVP thing for a warrior.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Not to mention warriors just aren’t that good at stacking conditions in general. Bleed is the only condition that gets up to a very high amount and warriors can get, like, 6-7 stacks tops. .

This is very disgustingly false. 6-7 stacks tops is extremely wrong and not even close.

I can hit 25 stack with my warrior and keep it constant 20+

Warlord.9074:

Going to play devils advocate here. If there are no other condition built classes in your party its going to be ok. If there are then its not going to be ok. When I say ok I mean it will work, I am not going to debate about how well it will work.

Condis are mainly a PVP thing for a warrior.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Not to mention warriors just aren’t that good at stacking conditions in general. Bleed is the only condition that gets up to a very high amount and warriors can get, like, 6-7 stacks tops. .

This is very disgustingly false. 6-7 stacks tops is extremely wrong and not even close.

Precise Strikes is 33% chance to bleed for 3s. At roughly 50% crit chance this is equivalent to about half a tick of bleed per hit. Sword chain is 2 stacks of 8s bleed and the chain completes in 2.5s, which is about 6.4 stacks on average. So yeah, 6-7 stacks.

Next question please.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deep_Cuts
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Koi_Cake
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Riposte
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pin_Down
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flurry

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Warlord.9074:

Going to play devils advocate here. If there are no other condition built classes in your party its going to be ok. If there are then its not going to be ok. When I say ok I mean it will work, I am not going to debate about how well it will work.

Condis are mainly a PVP thing for a warrior.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Not to mention warriors just aren’t that good at stacking conditions in general. Bleed is the only condition that gets up to a very high amount and warriors can get, like, 6-7 stacks tops. .

This is very disgustingly false. 6-7 stacks tops is extremely wrong and not even close.

Precise Strikes is 33% chance to bleed for 3s. At roughly 50% crit chance this is equivalent to about half a tick of bleed per hit. Sword chain is 2 stacks of 8s bleed and the chain completes in 2.5s, which is about 6.4 stacks on average. So yeah, 6-7 stacks.

Next question please.

Guanglai Kangyi You have no idea what you are talking about. Remember my DWA thread is no good thread? Turns out DWA is pretty good with swords. Much better than Axes. As you can stack bleeds faster. And with 105% bleeding duration without food I never saw bleeds stack so fast….
DPS Test 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEy4KhdGC5o
DPS Test 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6kEmuQQpWY

Just don’t dodge before 10 seconds or you won’t get extra bleed.

Wethospu.6437:

Just don’t dodge before 10 seconds or you won’t get extra bleed.

shadup wetsupoo go hang out with Guanglai Kangyi and debate with each other over which pretend differences are more pretend than the other.

The only truth, is the absolute truth, of the warlordverse.

Wethospu.6437:

Just don’t dodge before 10 seconds or you won’t get extra bleed.

You can’t assume it’s ten seconds until you’ve counted the frames, it might be less.

You click your buttons Warlord? You can ramp those condis up 10% faster if you use keys.

edit: done some calculations, may be more like 7% due to afterpress, but it’s definitely better

xxHellBladexx.9163:

The reason I’m asking this is because I thought this game was more “play what you want” then “play whats the best”.

The problem is when delusional people believe that playing whatever bad build they dreamed up is the exact same as playing the most optimal build.

A few months ago I did Arah 1-3 on my condition damage full Rabid warrior and nobody in my guild group even noticed. Why? Because in a high dps organized group where everyone knows what they are doing, having one character play a medium dps build can blend into the background and be tough to notice.

However, in a disorganized group with people who have bad builds and aren’t playing well, having a low dps party member who isn’t contributing a great deal is a big problem.

As far as dungeons go, ironically, the harder the dungeon the better condition damage is. In Ascalonian Catacombs the bosses die so quickly that you would barely have time to get any conditions applied to them before they are dead. In Arah, where the bosses have significantly more health and take longer to kill condition damage can actually ramp up and be a bit more useful. But you should note, even the most maxed out condition damage build is outclassed by direct damage in terms of potential.

Warlord.9074:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Warlord.9074:

Going to play devils advocate here. If there are no other condition built classes in your party its going to be ok. If there are then its not going to be ok. When I say ok I mean it will work, I am not going to debate about how well it will work.

Condis are mainly a PVP thing for a warrior.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Not to mention warriors just aren’t that good at stacking conditions in general. Bleed is the only condition that gets up to a very high amount and warriors can get, like, 6-7 stacks tops. .

This is very disgustingly false. 6-7 stacks tops is extremely wrong and not even close.

Precise Strikes is 33% chance to bleed for 3s. At roughly 50% crit chance this is equivalent to about half a tick of bleed per hit. Sword chain is 2 stacks of 8s bleed and the chain completes in 2.5s, which is about 6.4 stacks on average. So yeah, 6-7 stacks.

Next question please.

Guanglai Kangyi You have no idea what you are talking about. Remember my DWA thread is no good thread? Turns out DWA is pretty good with swords. Much better than Axes. As you can stack bleeds faster. And with 105% bleeding duration without food I never saw bleeds stack so fast….
DPS Test 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEy4KhdGC5o
DPS Test 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6kEmuQQpWY

Cap is 100% bleed duration, no? Or has that changed in recent weeks? (not Necro with scepter trait)

cap is at 100… you could have 150 and vs targets with 0 its 100 vs targets with -50 its still 100. And this build won’t work if there is a necro or some other condi user in the party. Because as a condi warrior you need to own the bleeding stack pool or you are not contributing DPS.

xxHellBladexx.9163:

Which do you prefer and why. (Heavy details and explanation would be very helpful.)

There are many reasons I prefer to stay away from condi damage, but one of the biggest reasons is the scaling. Direct damage scales so much better than condi damage. Condi damage scales with condition damage at a rate of 5%, but compare that to something like axes, which scale with power at a rate of approx 27.3% (approx since anet likes their integers) and you can see where you are getting the most bang for your buck.

A second important reason I stay away from condi damage is the sustainability. With the exception of rifle auto attack, the cd of the abilities is much longer than the actual dot. But since most of us have at least 5 in Arms, offhand sword is the other exception. Even doubling the duration of condition damage only nets you 2 more abilites to work with, one of which is a water ability, over all weapons including water. This means that the rest of the damage you are doing is direct damage while you wait for your cd to reset.

In the case of rifle auto, assuming the auto attack is once per second (?) and that ALL you are doing is auto attacking, your expected stack size will be just 6, or 7.75 in the case of 5 in Arms. And even then, the direct damage hit when applying the dot did more damage than total damage that the dot did over time. Additionally, this average stacks size can only decrease, thus lowering your dps, if you break your auto attack chain for whatever reason. (This only holds true for condi damage that has not had the duration extended past the 5 in Arms.)

I think the only plausible case of an over all damage increase in the form of a dot is in the case of offhand sword. But even then, some analysis must be done to verify that your dot is doing more damage than, say, offhand mace, which should be used to stack invuln.

oilstorm.1748:

xxHellBladexx.9163:

Which do you prefer and why. (Heavy details and explanation would be very helpful.)

There are many reasons I prefer to stay away from condi damage, but one of the biggest reasons is the scaling. Direct damage scales so much better than condi damage. Condi damage scales with condition damage at a rate of 5%, but compare that to something like axes, which scale with power at a rate of approx 27.3% (approx since anet likes to their integers) and you can see where you are getting the most bang for your buck.

A second important reason I stay away from condi damage is the sustainability. With the exception of rifle auto attack, the cd of the abilities is much longer than the actual dot. But since most of us have at least 5 in Arms, offhand sword is the other exception. Even doubling the duration of condition damage only nets you 2 more abilites to work with, one of which is a water ability, over all weapons including water. This means that the rest of the damage you are doing is direct damage while you wait for your cd to reset.

In the case of rifle auto, assuming the auto attack is once per second (?) and that ALL you are doing is auto attacking, your expected stack size will be just 6, or 7.75 in the case of 5 in Arms. And even then, the direct damage hit when applying the dot did more damage than total damage that the dot did over time. Additionally, this average stacks size can only decrease, thus lowering your dps, if you break your auto attack chain for whatever reason. (This only holds true for condi damage that has not had the duration extended past the 5 in Arms.)

I think the only plausible case of an over all damage increase in the form of a dot is in the case of offhand sword. But even then, some analysis must be done to verify that your dot is doing more damage than, say, offhand mace, which should be used to stack invuln.

Did you just make up those percentages?

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

oilstorm.1748:

xxHellBladexx.9163:

Which do you prefer and why. (Heavy details and explanation would be very helpful.)

There are many reasons I prefer to stay away from condi damage, but one of the biggest reasons is the scaling. Direct damage scales so much better than condi damage. Condi damage scales with condition damage at a rate of 5%, but compare that to something like axes, which scale with power at a rate of approx 27.3% (approx since anet likes to their integers) and you can see where you are getting the most bang for your buck.

A second important reason I stay away from condi damage is the sustainability. With the exception of rifle auto attack, the cd of the abilities is much longer than the actual dot. But since most of us have at least 5 in Arms, offhand sword is the other exception. Even doubling the duration of condition damage only nets you 2 more abilites to work with, one of which is a water ability, over all weapons including water. This means that the rest of the damage you are doing is direct damage while you wait for your cd to reset.

In the case of rifle auto, assuming the auto attack is once per second (?) and that ALL you are doing is auto attacking, your expected stack size will be just 6, or 7.75 in the case of 5 in Arms. And even then, the direct damage hit when applying the dot did more damage than total damage that the dot did over time. Additionally, this average stacks size can only decrease, thus lowering your dps, if you break your auto attack chain for whatever reason. (This only holds true for condi damage that has not had the duration extended past the 5 in Arms.)

I think the only plausible case of an over all damage increase in the form of a dot is in the case of offhand sword. But even then, some analysis must be done to verify that your dot is doing more damage than, say, offhand mace, which should be used to stack invuln.

Did you just make up those percentages?

Nope. One of them is even on the wiki page. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Damage

oilstorm.1748:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

oilstorm.1748:

xxHellBladexx.9163:

Which do you prefer and why. (Heavy details and explanation would be very helpful.)

There are many reasons I prefer to stay away from condi damage, but one of the biggest reasons is the scaling. Direct damage scales so much better than condi damage. Condi damage scales with condition damage at a rate of 5%, but compare that to something like axes, which scale with power at a rate of approx 27.3% (approx since anet likes to their integers) and you can see where you are getting the most bang for your buck.

A second important reason I stay away from condi damage is the sustainability. With the exception of rifle auto attack, the cd of the abilities is much longer than the actual dot. But since most of us have at least 5 in Arms, offhand sword is the other exception. Even doubling the duration of condition damage only nets you 2 more abilites to work with, one of which is a water ability, over all weapons including water. This means that the rest of the damage you are doing is direct damage while you wait for your cd to reset.

In the case of rifle auto, assuming the auto attack is once per second (?) and that ALL you are doing is auto attacking, your expected stack size will be just 6, or 7.75 in the case of 5 in Arms. And even then, the direct damage hit when applying the dot did more damage than total damage that the dot did over time. Additionally, this average stacks size can only decrease, thus lowering your dps, if you break your auto attack chain for whatever reason. (This only holds true for condi damage that has not had the duration extended past the 5 in Arms.)

I think the only plausible case of an over all damage increase in the form of a dot is in the case of offhand sword. But even then, some analysis must be done to verify that your dot is doing more damage than, say, offhand mace, which should be used to stack invuln.

Did you just make up those percentages?

Nope. One of them is even on the wiki page. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Damage

That’s not how percentages work. And you realize you’re pretty much also admitting you made up the second number.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

That’s not how percentages work. And you realize you’re pretty much also admitting you made up the second number.

First off please drop the attitude. I totally understand wanting people to prove their claims, especially in this game where it appears that no one can, but realize that I am getting sick of talking to people that have no basis for their pride. Talk reasonably to me and I’ll respond reasonably to you. Ignore this request and I’ll ignore you.

And yes, this is how percentages work. If you want we can take it out of percentage form and put it in a ratio. A percentage is defined as part over the whole. We are taking 1/20th of your total condition damage and converting it to actual damage. In other words you are getting 1 unit of damage per 20 units of condition damage. The same argument holds true for the power scalar I quoted earlier.

I’m talking kitten because you make no sense. If you had something for me to work with I would have addressed that first. Except you threw out a bunch of random lines like “condition damage scales with condition damage at a rate of 5%” and “axes scale with power at a rate of 27%” or whatever. Throwing a dictionary definition of what a percentage is at me doesn’t make it any clearer in context or out.

You need to go back and look at your own quote and realize that it just looks like every other wannabe theorycrafter on this forum trying to look smart.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I’m talking kitten because you make no sense.

Welp, fair enough.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Precise Strikes is 33% chance to bleed for 3s. At roughly 50% crit chance this is equivalent to about half a tick of bleed per hit. Sword chain is 2 stacks of 8s bleed and the chain completes in 2.5s, which is about 6.4 stacks on average. So yeah, 6-7 stacks.

Next question please.

http://youtu.be/42YD0QBlQ0o

Bit more than 6-7 stacks.

spoj.9672:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Precise Strikes is 33% chance to bleed for 3s. At roughly 50% crit chance this is equivalent to about half a tick of bleed per hit. Sword chain is 2 stacks of 8s bleed and the chain completes in 2.5s, which is about 6.4 stacks on average. So yeah, 6-7 stacks.

Next question please.

http://youtu.be/42YD0QBlQ0o

Bit more than 6-7 stacks.

he’s talking about without any +condi duration buffs

wads.5730:

spoj.9672:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Precise Strikes is 33% chance to bleed for 3s. At roughly 50% crit chance this is equivalent to about half a tick of bleed per hit. Sword chain is 2 stacks of 8s bleed and the chain completes in 2.5s, which is about 6.4 stacks on average. So yeah, 6-7 stacks.

Next question please.

http://youtu.be/42YD0QBlQ0o

Bit more than 6-7 stacks.

he’s talking about without any +condi duration buffs

Whats worst? Not reading the thread? Or not knowing what your talking about. Even without any condi buffs, deep cuts alone you can stack more than that. Don’t try and defend him. And all he is refering too is a trait bleed on crit? Swords apply bleeding on hit and bow 5? flurry? sword block?

Both you and guang are either the smartest people on these forum or the dumbest people and its hard to tell which half the time. And your boths math is terrible.

The thread is clearly about condi war, and condi war can maintain 20+ stacks without food as I’ve showed in my vids and others also.

I read the same thing in NIKEs post 6-7 stacks thats maybe true with a GS and just procing that trait precise strikes with the 30% baseline duration from 6 points in str. But thats not at all what we are talking about here. LOL maybe if you got a lucky roll of dice and proced it a bunch of times while channeling 100 blades. Otherwise have no idea how you come to those conclusions.

Why do you always capitalize NIKE’s name? Is it like a YAHWEH thing?

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Why do you always capitalize NIKE’s name? Is it like a YAHWEH thing?

I don’t believe in either one of them so…maybe thats why.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Why do you always capitalize NIKE’s name? Is it like a YAHWEH thing?

There is no other way to properly emote his jealousy.

Warlord.9074

I don’t envy people I dislike.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Exhibit A.

Tree.3916:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Why do you always capitalize NIKE’s name? Is it like a YAHWEH thing?

There is no other way to properly emote his jealousy.

I don’t envy people I dislike.

Warlord.9074:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Why do you always capitalize NIKE’s name? Is it like a YAHWEH thing?

I don’t believe in either one of them so…maybe thats why.

Wow, edgy. Let me tell you about our Savior Jesus Christ.

Well as a warrior you can be a very nice torment stacker, having both low cooldown heals for the runes, the sword F1 for vast sigil triggers and Sword 4 stacking 5, if combined with the easy 100% bleed duration and pretty much perma burning on the target, with the average 2.4k cond damage a proper build has (that is, solo, not even counting for might from the group).
You can probably dish out around 4.7k dps with just condis counting average 7 bleed stacks to be overwritten and fall off by other people.

Compared to a zerker builds average 6k dps (assuming banners and co), you would deal enough damage to carry yourself.

(with the build being something akin to this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNAscTjMdU5Z3HGewJaghgyUAcuBChnPdSMEHBA-TRCBABHcgAc+UA8i+gp3fAgjAgPq/ApSQwU+p9DAgUAwMNC-e)

I like how this thread has derailed into a mess of props insulting each other just like most theorycraft threads.

I don’t think a pure condo build is optimal, but what about a hybrid build?

Conditions are definitely viable as you can get pretty reasonable DPS. However conditions are situational so you really need to know what you are doing and have a backup set for encounters where conditions are useless (and parties with other condi users).

Or you can use direct damage, have one armor set and don’t worry about immunities.

Conditions can be pretty fun really. It is situational if you are running in a group with others that already stack a lot of bleeds. But in groups where they don’t you will be the king in bleed stacking, I can just auto attack and hold 12-14 stacks with food and deep wounds. Most of my dungeon groups tend to consist of Guards, Eles, other Warriors, and occasional Ranger. So I tend to hold the bar on most of the bleeds in my groups.

I do however carry around a berserker set with any weapon of choice and a full knights set if needed as well if there are too many other conditioners. I tend to run a healing shout S/S build more often then any of the others. Its pretty fun overall and it does help out despite what some people might think.

Conditions seem to support a healing hybrid build better then a power one and since so many people play a self serving berserker build the healing helps out and keeps them fighting longer with less downed time. But you know if you already have these bases covered you still can fall back on your berserker gear and change traits.

I like changing it up, no change leads to stagnation after all and eventually you either will grow too bored to play any longer or reroll. Warrior really offers a lot of viable builds and weapon setups for pve depending on what roll you want to perform and your group setup.