Guild Wars 2

Hello,

I’ve never really played offhand axe, so thought the upcoming warrior changes could be a good opportunity to give it a try. I’d therefore like to propose the following build to your scrutiny, so that offhand axe users can help me towards more efficient variations.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQRAsX3ejMdUGaVImdwJagqgC9iHANg6foxzhUbAA-TpBFwAMOIAIOCAOeAAy3foaZAAnAAA

Basically, I gave myself two weapon constraints: I want an offhand axe (that’s the main theme), and I don’t want a longbow (although I acknowledge its current superiority in Conquest, I’ve played it too much already).

I therefore decided to go for a roaming build, with high mobility and high burst damage:

• The first set is sword/axe. The sword is traited with Leg Specialist, so that #2 also immobilizes opponents. This allows easy combos such as #2+#3 and #2+#5. The axe gets a Sigil of Air, because it’s bound to trigger once with #5, however low the critical chance appears.
• The second set is axe/shield. Usual combos are #4+F1, possibly setup with #3, and Bull’s Charge+F1. I use a Sigil of Intelligence to get a critical hit for the evisceration, as well as a Sigil of Hydromancy to keep a confused target close to me.
• As a roamer, I need mobility and ability to engage/disengage quickly. This is done thanks to Dogged March, sword #2, Bull’s Charge and the 25% speed brought by the Runes of the Traveler (more on this below). I also have the 33% speed from the Signet of Rage and the Balanced Stance, and the stability and condition immunity from my stances.
• As a burster, I need might. With this setup, I think that the best way to get it is with shield #5 coupled with Mighty Defenses. This choice however fills the first slot of the Discipline line, and I have usage for the other two, so cannot take the Warrior Sprint. This is why I use the Runes of the Traveler, getting less damage potential, but aside of the speed increase, a bit more sustain.
• I use Destruction of the Empowered to increase the damage, although I believe that Sharpened Axes could possibly become a contender for the slot after the feature patch (I tried it, and it gives you full adrenaline bars very fast with the current setup – actually too fast to use it before the 7s CD is over!).

The options I’m considering:

• Trading Bull’s Charge for the Signet of Stamina would be like exchanging control and mobility for vigor and condition cleansing. This is situational, and so far am doing well enough to not take the signet, but that could change, all the more the build is rather weak against conditions.

Thanks in advance for your comments.

I guess it can ‘work’, the question is if it works better then other weapons. For instance, sword/axe has no defense, whereas GS does (and might arguably provide more burst when the new burst skill hits). Better mobility on GS, too.

As a roamer, you may want to avoid situations with multiple enemies, so there is little benefit in use aoe skill like axe whirlwind. without a bow, you will miss a source of condi cleanse and you may be kited to death by certain classes. Axe #5 can be easily interrupted as well. You can compensate the condi cleanse with flurry but you have to stay in close melee and hit one targetto make cleansing ire to proc. In this respect sword+axe is a good choice for off-hand axe. You may also try new brawler recovery trait which fits in your built too.
As secondary weapon, I would try GS for additional mobility/aoe damage in wvw roaming. For spvp roaming axe+shield is worth to try out.but you need control to setup eviscerate and hope it will not miss or you will loose all adrenaline

Hello Cygnus and Tamtam,

First, thank you for taking the time to review the build and comment on it.

You make an interesting point about the nature of offhand axe (small scale offsensive battle weapon) not being particularly consistent with the purpose I intend to wield it for (roaming). As a result, the build may indeed be fundamentally flawed: probably working, but nothing spectacular, and less efficient than other builds, such as GS-based builds. I’ll have to think more about it.

In particular, I have some (more or less unconscious) bias against the greatsword in PvP. This has less to do with the weapon itself, which offers mobility, bursts and one evade, than with my skills, currently not good enough to make it work in duels. I agree that it should be a weapon of choice in a roaming perspective.

I primarily considered Axe #5 not for its damage, but for its ability to refill adrenaline in a fast way, especially if traited with Sharpened Axes. In terms of usage, it’s true that it’s optimized if activated against 2+ opponents – but that also includes adds, so possibly not too useless in some 1v1. The skill can indeed be interrupted, and that I forgot, although I happen to interrupt it when I’m faced with it (especially when I run condition builds with Distracting Strikes).

I like the suggestion of Brawler’s Recovery. Since the build is weak against conditions, this could be very nice. The loss of Burst Mastery would not hurt too much: the 7% damage is negligible when compared to the whole inflicted damage, and the 1-bar adrenaline refund can be offset by Axe #5, traited or not.

As for the eviscerate combos, I suppose I’ll have to test when the patch is out. So far, I usually prepare an evisceration with soft control (Chilled from the Sigil of Hydromancy, cripple/immobilize from Sword #2 or Axe #3) and/or hard control (stun from shield #4 or knockdown from Bull’s Charge). In a pure burst axe/shield+rifle build, I have successfully used fear as well.

Cheers.

Honestly, I do think this build needs Burst Mastery rather then Brawler’s Recovery.

You will want to use sword burst into Axe burst. Thus you need as much instant adrenaline as you can get.

Using sword burst>axe 5 then eviscerate leaves too much time for your opponent to get out of the immobilize and dodge the Evis, which is where most of your damage will come from.

I honestly think Axe offhand is close to becoming useful, but i don’t see that in PvP roaming. WvW, maybe, but still obviously worse then GS in my opinion.

Hello,

Cygnus.6903:

Honestly, I do think this build needs Burst Mastery rather then Brawler’s Recovery.

You will want to use sword burst into Axe burst. Thus you need as much instant adrenaline as you can get.

The rotation you suggest seems very strong, yet difficult to achieve – I’ll have to look into it. So far, I only use the sword burst to cleanse conditions or root the opponent for sword #3. I usually activate axe #5 after sword #2 (traited with Leg Specialist).

I actually have some expectation about Brawler’s Recovery. So far, Cleansing Ire is a great trait, because it helps manage conditions and adrenaline – but it’s still a 20 points investment in Defense. I somehow wonder if, using Brawler’s Recovery, one could not do without this investment, yet still remain competitive.

Cygnus.6903:

Using sword burst>axe 5 then eviscerate leaves too much time for your opponent to get out of the immobilize and dodge the Evis, which is where most of your damage will come from.

I happen to hold a different opinion, there. The build uses berserker gear, so has pretty good damage, despite the choice of runes. As of my current testing I’ve had many skills performing quite well – evisceration of course (7k+), but also Final Thrust (5k) and Whirling Axe (between 3k to 6k). All these figures depend on target’s armor, protection, vulnerability or might stacks – I’ve just provided them for the sake of comparison.

Cygnus.6903:

I honestly think Axe offhand is close to becoming useful, but i don’t see that in PvP roaming. WvW, maybe, but still obviously worse then GS in my opinion.

The gameplay is similar to one of a thief, except you have less mobility and are more tanky. I’ve been called “noob” many times in hotjoins, either because of won duels (people hate losing to an offhand axe user) or because I could disengage very fast (people hate when you escape rather than die, even when outnumbered).

Regards.

I’m very interested in trying sword/axe myself. How do you think it compares to greatsword? These setups are similar and both have pros/cons.

Greatswords cons are that hundred blades is immobile (I think the burst skill will be immobile too?), and rush is more of a gap closer than anything else but its cooldown is 20s where savage leap is 8s. Overall, the mobility is the identical. There is also no skill on the greatsword itself to land hundred blades.

Sword/axe’s cons are that sword #1 and the burst skill are condition based but the rest of the skills are power based. IMO whirling axe will be better than hundred blades for pvp because it’s mobile and doesn’t necessarily need any cc or immobilize to land.

Would rampager stats be a better choice for sword/axe, taking precise strikes and rending strikes to help with the condi aspect? The fury from axe #4 should also get you to 100% critical chance which should be similar damage to berserker gear. Whirling axe doesn’t do high burst damage like backstab so having every hit crit should be better scaling than having some hits crit high. Same idea for flurry.

Dual wield agility might be an option as well.

(Talking pvp/wvw here not pve)

Just a friendly reminder: axe 5 deals less damage than axe auto, and even with the damage boost, it’ll probably be equal.

Hello,

@Zefrost: Unfortunately, I’m not very familiar with the GS on a competitive level, so am probably biased against it. Comparing it with Sword/Axe, I happen to share your views. In details though, here’s what I think:

• Both have no block nor hard control, but compensate with good mobility, cripples and bursts. In that perspective, I agree with you that they broadly serve the same purpose, and must be complemented in a similar fashion.
• The GS autoattack does better damage than the Sword’s one, but is slightly slower. It also puts vulnerability, while the Sword third attack cripples. I value cripple very much, much more than vulnerability, not only because it disrupts the opponent’s rhythm, but also because it somehow helps to get keep the target around so that our continuation successfully lands. As a matter of fact, I find this so important in a burst build, that I have even invested into Leg Specialist.
• The mobility for both weapons is high, yet different in nature. GS #5 is nice as it lets you inflict good damage as well, and GS #3 has one evade, so of excellent use in an active defense. Yet, again, I prefer the Sword’s leap: it’s short (8s), it cripples (a close followed by a cripple/immobilize is an excellent setup for Sword #3, Axe #5 or Axe #1), it’s a leap (so working with field combos), and it’s a leap (again), meaning you can jump over obstacles or holes, very useful in kiting – something both GS #3 and GS #5 cannot do, which is a shame in PvP maps where terrain offers lots of positioning opportunities.
• GS #4 cripples, and it’s a ranged skill. This is good and bad: it’s good because you can still fight when the opponent kites you, and it’s bad because your other skills are melee-based, so you still need to close in after using it. Sword #2 does both in one skill, thus allowing for direct continuations.
• Now, for the bursts, both have some good ones: GS #2 is huge, but as you’ve said it requires that the opponent be rooted – if some hits miss, then it becomes no better than any other medium damage skill. To me, the investment to have it work is too much of a hassle, when Sword/Axe have either Sword #3 (instant damage if you hit) or Axe #5 (you can follow the opponent, especially if you cripple him before). The new Arcing Slice could however change this aspect (to be tested).

So far, this is why I prefer sword/axe over the greatsword. Now, there are still two areas that matter in the analysis:

• Offhand Axe lets you gain fury with Axe #4 (still doing decent damage), and lets you hit 15 times with Axe #5 – meaning you can refill lots of adrenaline with it, especially if you trait Sharpened Axes. This was the primary purpose of the build, and I even ended up not traiting the axe, because the adrenaline refill was too fast for the 7s burst CD.
• The GS can give might on critical hit, while the setup sword/axe requires other build commitments. This is a very strong point in favor of the GS, especially if you do not get might in another way.

Regarding the gear, I have considered Rampager, but not retained it. The PvP rune unfortunately favors condition damage (643) over power (328), taking here a different path than in WvW where both stats are equal, and the build uses an Axe/Shield as second weapon set, i.e. a pure physical damage setup. I feel the loss would be too important, all the more that there’s not a lot of options to stack might to compensate for the low power. One could consider using a Longbow instead of Axe/Shield to make it work, but then would be missing some control and block, something I’m not ready to play without.

@Oxtred: Agreed, the Axe auto-attack chain does more damage than #5 (or, as you say, maybe an equivalent amount in the revised version), but I think that the damage of Axe #5 is actually secondary to the adrenaline building (to put it another way, it’s a very pleasant side effect).

Regards.

About the issue with might stacking. You could possibly use the Short Temper trait with sword/axe because it works wonders with multi hit attacks (flurry & whirling axe). This is only effective against guardians, but is also useful against warriors, engineers and some elementalists.

However, you’re taking destruction of the empowered which synergizes well with short temper in that regard. That grants adrenaline as well which should compensate the loss on not taking sharpened axes. IMO you could drop leg specialist for short temper.

This would give you might on weapon swap, might when blocked, might when you block and might when you use signet of rage. You could possible use a might rune as well because signet of rage gives swiftness which is better than 25% movement speed from travelers.

Just something to think about.

Hello,

Thanks for your suggestions. Short Temper also gives Reckless Dodges, so it’s certainly a nice idea to try out – to see whether the lack of Leg Specialist still allows for successful continuations (I think yes). As for swiftness over the 25%, I’ve always have mixed feelings about it, because there are many classes that can remove it – making you back to the usual dolyak pace – again, to be tested. Anyway, I’ll be looking forward to playing with the 9/9 feature patch!

Cheers.

Hi.

I’ve been running a sw/axe and GS build in every mode for a few months now. I think there’s something about offhand axe that you are under-utilizing, particularly where trait points are concerned.

Since you’re using a multihit attack that can hit up to five opponents, you really want to pump that precision. Getting more crits out of your attack means shorter fights, and makes the on-crit abilities proc more often. I’d actually recommend the Arms tree over Discipline simply for that reason. Well, that and two others: Rending Strikes and Precise Strikes. With higher precision and multihit attacks, you get that many more chances to add Vulnerability and Bleeding. With axe and sword alone I’ve gotten up to 10 stacks on a single target in one rotation. This will also charge your innate sword bleeds and your Final Thrust. If you know the rotation, you can sneak that in almost instantly. I trust you do

Also, the Reckless Dodge trait works nicely with Whirlwind since you can dodge while channeling, adding two AOE 3k+ punches to your rotation.

You have sigil of Air, which is single target, but your OH axe is an AOE weapon. Why not go for Fire?

My only other contention is Axe / Shield. You’re running mighty defense for essentially one skill, and you’re counting on your opponent to wail on you for that bonus. For me, that’s too many variables. I’d also recommend a GS (since I recommended Arms tree anyway) and go for Forceful GS and Attack of Opportunity. Between CI and your auto attacks, you’ll be gaining a decent amount of adrenaline anyway.

Hello,

Daniel Warren.4968:

I’ve been running a sw/axe and GS build in every mode for a few months now. I think there’s something about offhand axe that you are under-utilizing, particularly where trait points are concerned.

First, thank you for your insight, it’s very much appreciated.

Daniel Warren.4968:

Since you’re using a multihit attack that can hit up to five opponents, you really want to pump that precision. Getting more crits out of your attack means shorter fights, and makes the on-crit abilities proc more often. I’d actually recommend the Arms tree over Discipline simply for that reason. Well, that and two others: Rending Strikes and Precise Strikes. With higher precision and multihit attacks, you get that many more chances to add Vulnerability and Bleeding.

That is a very good point, given that axe #5 can hit up to 15 times, and both Rending Strikes and Precise Strikes have no cool down.

Daniel Warren.4968:

With axe and sword alone I’ve gotten up to 10 stacks on a single target in one rotation. This will also charge your innate sword bleeds and your Final Thrust. If you know the rotation, you can sneak that in almost instantly. I trust you do

Previously, as I had Leg Specialist in my build, simply doing sword#2 was a fine setup for either axe #5 or sword #3. As of now, I’ve been using the sword burst to get an immobilize, then unsheathe right away before doing axe #5 and sword #3. If you had something else in mind, please share!

Daniel Warren.4968:

Also, the Reckless Dodge trait works nicely with Whirlwind since you can dodge while channeling, adding two AOE 3k+ punches to your rotation.

Indeed! I hadn’t thought of that.

Daniel Warren.4968:

You have sigil of Air, which is single target, but your OH axe is an AOE weapon. Why not go for Fire?

This comes from my initial misunderstanding of the nature of offhand axe. I decided for a high damage roaming build, so basically something where I’d rather avoid outnumbered fights – but, as many have pointed out, axe #5 shines when you have many opponents, be it a player with his adds, or many players.

Daniel Warren.4968:

My only other contention is Axe / Shield. You’re running mighty defense for essentially one skill, and you’re counting on your opponent to wail on you for that bonus. For me, that’s too many variables.

Honestly, I do not find it satisfying as well. Zefrost suggested that I try Short Temper, but that’d also be counting on the opponent. Still, I think this is not bad at all, since you get two sources of might stacking – but the investment sure is painful.

Daniel Warren.4968:

I’d also recommend a GS (since I recommended Arms tree anyway) and go for Forceful GS and Attack of Opportunity. Between CI and your auto attacks, you’ll be gaining a decent amount of adrenaline anyway.

Both Cygnus and TamTam also suggested I consider the greatsword. Following your post, here’s what I tried (about 10 hotjoin games).

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNAsXRjMdUGaVImdwJiAmgCZnPBWuGBBgyn4zB-TpBBwAVOCASOBAcOEAAeAA12focZAA

At first, I was simply lost, because fights were suddenly much faster! Also, I’m used to builds with lots of control and blocks, and it took me some time to use the GS evade as a defensive skill.

Eventually though, I think I’ve come to like it. The gameplay is new to me on the warrior, in that I play it as lots of hit-and-runs. The opponent can dodge easily when I close in, but I can do with that, because this means they’re one dodge off. The mobility is insane, the damage is splendid, but the build is weak to conditions and quite fragile, so I need to pick my opponents. I’ll certainly experiment more, especially with the coming feature patch.

Cheers.

as a long time axe/axe user i’d really reccomend that you pick up Reckless Dodge , little known fact, but you can dodge roll while channelling your axe#5, its a lethal combo of high damage while avoiding damage. (atleast in my glassy build, the whirl does over 10k damage every time and the 2 dodge rolls will deal atleast 5k+ (usually around 7k))

Hello,

Liewec.2896:

as a long time axe/axe user i’d really reccomend that you pick up Reckless Dodge , little known fact, but you can dodge roll while channelling your axe#5, its a lethal combo of high damage while avoiding damage. (atleast in my glassy build, the whirl does over 10k damage every time and the 2 dodge rolls will deal atleast 5k+ (usually around 7k))

It’s funny, Daniel Warren made the same remark. I was completely unaware of this synergy, it’s pretty cool! Thanks for sharing.

May I ask what you complement your axe/axe with?

Regards.

The sneaking final thrust:

While im not sure if this is a bug in the animation or not, immediately after whirling axes ends, if you had dodge rolled while channeling, there is a brief animation where your character appears to roll in place. I think its trying to catch up on the animations it missed while performing the whirl. As soon as the axe whirl ends, you can queue final thrust, and the roll will replace your characters channeling motion for the thrust. On screen, it looks like this.

Whirl, roll, thrust. No wind-up. Since youre already in your opponents face with the whirl, you should be in range for the thrust.

Give it a try! It seems to work every time for me, but I never really bothered to ask if anyone saw things the way I did.

Daniel Warren.4968:

The sneaking final thrust:

While im not sure if this is a bug in the animation or not, immediately after whirling axes ends, if you had dodge rolled while channeling, there is a brief animation where your character appears to roll in place. I think its trying to catch up on the animations it missed while performing the whirl. As soon as the axe whirl ends, you can queue final thrust, and the roll will replace your characters channeling motion for the thrust. On screen, it looks like this.

Whirl, roll, thrust. No wind-up. Since youre already in your opponents face with the whirl, you should be in range for the thrust.

Give it a try! It seems to work every time for me, but I never really bothered to ask if anyone saw things the way I did.

Inb4 this gets fixed.

Something else, take sigil of rage on axe offhand.

If it weren’t for that 30sec cooldown it’d be a beast of a sigil for that weapon set. Maybe paired with Last Chance / Dual Wield Agility?

Daniel Warren.4968:

If it weren’t for that 30sec cooldown it’d be a beast of a sigil for that weapon set. Maybe paired with Last Chance / Dual Wield Agility?

That’s overkill, and you need those traitpoints elsewhere. And I find the sigil of rage improving the axe offhand burst by a lot.

I was running this for giggles in PvP yesterday;

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQRApX8ejMdUGaVIGewJagjgC9I0BpgpAQ9Xk6NBA-TpBCwAAeAAYOBAaOCAB3f4yBBIcZAA

Honestly, I was surprised by the outcome. Mace and sword mainhand just provide so much control. If only Axe-offhand did real damage. While being this glass, I rarely broke 10k, even on glass targets, with a full Whirling Axe.

Reflects are incredible, though. This build does a fine job of closing the gap, building adrenaline, then unleashing a dangerous combo. The beauty of it is that both Mace or Sword burst can set up your hard hitting attacks (Axe 5 and Sword 3).

Survivability comes from utilities, and Signet Of Stamina is just amazing for that. Traited, so SoR provides ~85% uptime on swiftness.

Honestly, I would try to make this work better if Axe-offhand wasn’t so mediocre.

Hello,

@Daniel Warren: thanks for your explanation. I couldn’t play these last days, but I’ll be trying the combination tonight. I suspect the timing may not be that easy to get, though! As for Last Chance or Dual Wield Agility, I hadn’t thought of it. If one invests as much as 25 points in Arms, then I think it’s worth experimenting.

@Cygnus: nice build, I really like how you balance control and burst in your weapons set. I’ll be sure to try it as well. I somehow wonder about Heightened Focus, though: since you use your burst skill to prepare for your real burst, you lose the bonus precision at the moment it matters the most. Have you considered building around Unsuspecting Foe, leveraging the two stuns?

Cygnus.6903:

Honestly, I would try to make this work better if Axe-offhand wasn’t so mediocre.

The original point of the thread was to use offhand axe because it soon gets better

Cheers.

Elegie.3620:

@Cygnus: nice build, I really like how you balance control and burst in your weapons set. I’ll be sure to try it as well. I somehow wonder about Heightened Focus, though: since you use your burst skill to prepare for your real burst, you lose the bonus precision at the moment it matters the most. Have you considered building around Unsuspecting Foe, leveraging the two stuns?

The original point of the thread was to use offhand axe because it soon gets better

Cheers.

I have thought of Unsuspecting Foe, though that trait always requires set-up. HF also boosts DPS when you are not using the combo.

And I don’t think 17% more damage will get the OH from mediocre to usable.

17% doesn’t sound like a lot until you factor in Rending Strikes, the mobility and the AOE. Whirling is most useful when you’re hitting a group, preferably as they’re trying to pick up a downed ally.