Guild Wars 2

I have been thinking of a way to make banners easier to use therefore more viable.

Reasons why banners are a pain:
-picking them up to place them down again for them to even be usefull to a mobile fight
-certain area of effectiveness
-weak skills on some of them(1-5)
-no way to recall or move your banner without physically having to run up press F and continue

What im mainly bringing up here is the lack of mobility or feeling anchored to the banner area, after all if you chose a banner on one of your utliliys, to make best use of your spec now is to hold on to and move n drop your banner in the right spots to get the full effect or it becomes a complete waste compared to other warrior skills, especially with banner healing specs.

SO, my idea here goes along with skills that have 2 effects if hit once or twice, for example the gaurdian staff 2 healing orb, if press twice it pops n heals aoe.

For example: A banner is summoned, the normal happens, it blasts and starts give off its effects. What if pressed again an AoE maker shows up and that banner can be replaced or recalled 1 time no matter the distance to a more effective area in combat, doing dmg but no blast(only if it is picked up and num5 is used) until the cool down is reset and can be summoned again

I think this can also bring the trait “Powerful Banners” some more light and also give banner war’s more fluidity in the play style.

I’ve played a banner healing spec for 6-7 months and conquered in wvw when i was on SoS and understand the insane healing and sustainability it pumps out but i also understand why ppl dont choose to use it. My spec is still great but something is missing compared to the other amazing builds I’ve found, mostly of what i just mentioned.

(OnS) Kratos Reborn

Some interesting ideas, I think, but personally I think that’s supposed to be part of the compromise with banners; you plant the banner where you intend to fight and sacrifice a degree of your own potential combat output in exchange for group-wide benefits.

I’ve always felt they were designed for defensive situations or at least situations where a zerg has decided “this is where the fight’s going to be”. One of my warriors is a banner-support spec and I run with her fairly frequently in WvW (though not for a while now, I admit). With a fairly organised group (and really, any zerg should be doing this anyway) you can easily transport the banners from one fight to another by just picking them up and carrying them.

Whenever I run with my guild, for example, they know the rule if any of us bring banners – between fights, if there’s a banner lying around, pick it up and carry it to the next fight. As there’s actually very little CD for banners, there can be almost no downtime between their effects being active.

I think it might be a little too easy (and potentially too powerful) if the warrior can do all of that themselves. More importantly, I think it might drift away from one of things I like about banners today – they encourage player cooperation. The warrior brings the banners, the least other members of the group can do is help them carry the bloody things.

Still, I find it a very interesting and well thought up idea.

This is a copy-paste from another banner revamp thread, one in which back-mounted banners were suggested, but I think my suggestions are valid here also. Banners don’t need much work to jump from sub-par to competitive, my first (#1) suggestion alone would likely do this.

Ultrajoe.8674:

While back-banners are a popular idea, I think that takes the ease-of-use of banners too far the other way. They currently occupy a nearly-unique niche in the diverse moveset that the game offers. They’re indestructible, potent and have a high uptime, but currently they’re almost unusable because of how difficult they are to manage. The issue, however, is that that clunky management system is also what keeps banners balanced.

Any change to banners needs to keep all three major game modes in mind, and avoid buffing banners into must-have territory. To this end, my suggestion is a four-part addition to banner functionality.

1: Banners can be retrieved while moving, or the action is instant.

This change is a very simple one, conceptually. Currently, warriors or their allies must pause for a considerable period to retrieve a banner. This makes picking one up on the retreat, while trying to catch up to allies or in the middle of a fight a serious disadvantage. Hell, just dropping a banner preemptively is a pain, the anticipation factor is negated largely by the animation to pick it up! With this change, many issues with banner functionality are immediately solved. Nobody minds picking up a banner as they move on or give chase when they don’t have to self-CC to do so. As banners are currently a supportive bundle, I do not think this change is too powerful; to return to offensive actions, their bearer must still drop the banner.

2: #5 is no longer a blast finisher, and can be cast while moving. Now, Banner #5 has an effect on the banner itself. When placed with #5, the banner receives a small but persistent buff to its effective radius, removed when the banner is retrieved once more.

This change addresses the fact that, for the most part, it is usually more practical to drop a banner using your weapon swap rather than placing it manually. The blast finisher is quite nice, but roots the player for time they could better spend in most other situations. Now, for a moderate cast time, the player can plant their banner more deliberately for greater coverage, or drop it unceremoniously in a pinch. I also think it is important to remove the blast finisher from this skill, given change #1, which would make chaining finishers too strong even with no other alteration.

3: Banners have a burst skill (for warriors only, of course). When holding a banner, a warrior’s F1 skill becomes a 900 range ground target (120 radius). After a short cast time and animation (quite obvious, given the huge banner they are holding), the warrior hurls their banner at high-speed into the ground at the target location, bleeding (or tormenting, maybe) foes nearby, and triggering a blast finisher. This unequips the banner from the Warrior.

This is the big change, but the one which safely (I think) increases the appeal of banners without elevating them into stupidity. Now, only their parent class has access to this new ability, but one which makes banners more mobile, more threatening and More Active. Any player with eyes can avoid or dodge such an obvious cast, but in a team situation (which the banner is for!) the humble banner becomes an active, fun and offensive tool in the warrior’s kitten nal that can also trigger combo fields more precisely.

With all three changes:
– Banners are easier to move but remain distinct from an aura centered on the warrior.
– Others will not be disadvantaged by picking up your banner, allowing better team utilization.
– It still requires effort to move and place your banners, and rewards thoughtful placement of your banners both directly (through a larger radius) and indirectly (place it right the first time, and it won’t need much moving afterwards).
– Warriors are not denied their class feature when bearing one of their classes signature utility types.
– Warriors don’t feel carrying and replanting their banner is a chore.

I also do not think these changes favor any sector of the game over others, resulting in an overpowered move. All aspects of play have the main problems with banners addressed, without destroying their core functionality.

And hey, who doesn’t want banner-javelins, am I right?

The reason I quote this here is that I believe my third suggestion might be relevant to the OP. Why re-summon a banner for damage when we already have an under-used class mechanic to combine it with? While we’re at it, give Rampage a burst skill for god’s sake.

I’ve made a dozen banner suggestion threads. No word from ANet, and no indication of any upcoming changes.

Either they think banners are fine, or they dont care that they’re not.

Banners could be solved with a very easy option.

1. Reduce the cooldown from base substantially and reduce the cast time to next to nothing or nothing at all (i.e. base to 30s cooldown, banner lasts 20 seconds). Leave Battle Standard unchanged.
2. The kit/banner ‘pick it up animation’ needs to be factored into the boon abilities for total time to activate. This is not necessarily for the attack on the banners. However, the Charge activation should be much shorter given its limitation on distance covered as well.
3. Adjust Powerful Banners trait to be +all stats (a minor version of Celestial, say +60) to you and your group while wielding a banner.
4. (optional) only player/party members are allowed to pick up/use the abilities of the Banner. Or like Ele conjure weapons, put the Banner in the Warrior’s hands immediately and one on the ground.
5. (optional) make them more visually appealing, give them auras/particle effects based on the type of banner. i.e. have Battle Standard arrive with a burst of a lightning bolt and a crack of thunder.

I still astonished how Anet allow Thieves to drop an entire Shadow Refuge (and dark field), but not fix or rework these banners :/

JETWING.2759:

I still astonished how Anet allow Thieves to drop an entire Shadow Refuge (and dark field), but not fix or rework these banners :/

How is that similar/relevant in the slightest?

Banners and SR are two completely different things.

Maesk.8753:

JETWING.2759:

I still astonished how Anet allow Thieves to drop an entire Shadow Refuge (and dark field), but not fix or rework these banners :/

How is that similar/relevant in the slightest?

Banners and SR are two completely different things.

Yeah thats apples and oranges.
But if you want to be outraged… take note of the fact that they’re nerfing longbow, a weapon that’s perfectly balanced and no one was complaining about, and yet the bugged longbow traits, and bugged combustive shot range, has never been looked at.
/sigh

Or even just look how hilariously bad Powerful Banners is. 200ish damage if you summon a banner on top of an enemy…… So if I summon 4 banners on to my target, I may deal the same damage as a single auto-attack hit…. um, WHAT?

Banners are fine. Compared to ranger spirits they are indestructible, mobile, and give extra skills. They can be placed on the run. They are reliable. They have good duration. They buff a group. They are fit for purpose with no trait support at all. If they’re not worth a slot in SPvP because warriors don’t need to specialize to defend points … well it’s a non-issue, in my opinion.

JETWING.2759:

I still astonished how Anet allow Thieves to drop an entire Shadow Refuge (and dark field), but not fix or rework these banners :/

i don’t see how Shadow refuge has anything to do with banners.

I play a banner regen war in PvP and I think banners are awesome. Maybe this is more for WvW, since banners are extremely god like in PvE as well.

Stooperdale.3560:

Banners are fine. Compared to ranger spirits they are indestructible, mobile, and give extra skills. They can be placed on the run. They are reliable. They have good duration. They buff a group. They are fit for purpose with no trait support at all. If they’re not worth a slot in SPvP because warriors don’t need to specialize to defend points … well it’s a non-issue, in my opinion.

First off, they’re NOT very mobile. That’s the issue. Once you place them, you have to waste like 5 seconds in the middle of a fight, to get to them and pick them up. The auto-run-pickup glitch has reared it’s ugly head again, so sometimes trying to grab them gets you stuck running straight for a second or two, with no way to stop. Then you have to spend another second to either slam the banner to put it down, or quick-drop-swap it… which bugs your weapon swap out now too.

The “extra skills” they get are barred behind the above mentioned issue of wasting time getting the banner in combat. Thus, these extra skills dont have any real use. Plus, they’re rather weak and not worth casting for the most part.

The part of banners that makes them worth using, is the passive effect in PvE they see tons of use, because enemy mobs dont move. In PvP, enemies can easily force you to fight away from your banners passive, and it’s completely impractical to try and grab them to bring with you. Thats why you rarely seem them.

In WvW, a similar issue occurs, carrying the banner with you all day makes you a glorified buffbot. You could just roll SHOUTS instead, and end up better off.

Warriors are not asking for banners to be made overpowered, we’d just like to see banners be brought up to the same level of usefulness as an existing set of abilities we ALREADY HAVE.

Maesk.8753:

JETWING.2759:

I still astonished how Anet allow Thieves to drop an entire Shadow Refuge (and dark field), but not fix or rework these banners :/

How is that similar/relevant in the slightest?

Banners and SR are two completely different things.

Are two AoE offensive and defensive support of two non mystical classes, but one them (skills) looks mystical, granting stealth, mass blind, mass life steal, etc…

No doubt that one single SR are most better that all banners together, and with too lower CD

Banner lacks rework in effect and all active skills.
Previous suggestions was rejected But i have news:

- All banners could have their AoE increased to 900 w/o trait, and 1200 w/ trait.
- All banners could lasts 60s and starts 20s CD (Battle Standard could be 30) after vanisher.
- All active skills need have their cast time reduced in 50%.
- Skills #2, #3 and #4 need follow the range effect of respective banner (will only be affected by conjurer traits)
Banner of Tactics: Could be moved to healing skill slot replacing Mending. This banner now could grant heal over time (1000 hp per pulse) instead previous boost status (heal power and boon duration).
Banner of Strength: Could also increase condition duration (now could grant 170 power, 170 cond dmg, and 15% cond duration).
Banner of Defense: Could also increase heal power (now could grant 170 toughness, 170 vitality, and 170 healing power).
Banner of Discipline: Could also increase boon duration (now could grant 170 precision, 15% crit dmg, and 15% boon duration).
Battle Standard: Revive could affect both downed and defeated allies.
Banner of <banner name> (skill that summon the banner): After summon the banner, a new skill could be allowed in this icon slot, Go to Banner.
Go to Banner: This skill is available after summon, plant or drop a banner. Make the Warrior (only the warrior that summoned the banner) to blink to banner and pick up. If some other player already is wielding the banner, the skill will fail/miss.
The range could be the same of banner (900 w/o trait for all banners), and CD could be 10s. When the banner ends or vanisher, this skill change back to summon banner that starts CD.
Banner #1 (stab): Could deal additional effect according with banner:
- Strength: Inflict vulnerability (1 stacks for 10s).
- Defense: Inflict weakness (1 stack for 10s).
- Discipline: Inflict blind (1 stack for 10s).
- Tactics: Inflict confusion (1 stack for 10s).
- Battle: Inflict torment (1 stack for 10s).
Banner #2:
- Strength: inspire allies granting Might (3 stacks for 5s). CD = 10s.
- Defense: inspire allies granting Protection (1 stack for 5s). CD = 10s.
- Discipline: inspire allies granting Fury (1 stack for 5s). CD = 10s.
- Tactics: inspire allies granting Regeneration (1 stack for 5s). CD = 10s.
- Battle: inspire allies granting Stability (1 stack for 5s). CD = 10s.
Banner #3:
- All Banners: Inspire allies granting Swiftness and Vigor for 10s. CD = 15s.
Banner #4:
- Strength: Could also knockdown for 2s. CD = 15.
- Defense: Could also knockback in 250. CD = 15.
- Discipline: Could also blowout in 450. CD = 15.
- Tactics: Could also daze for. CD = 15. CD = 15.
- Battle: Could also stun for 2s. CD = 15. CD = 15.
Banner #5:
- All banners: Could be affected by powerful banner.

Are few changes that could make banners more attractive without make them OP.

The buffs banners grant are already good enough. In fact the buffs these banners grant are extremely good, except for banner of tactics, but well the 2nd skill of that banner can work aswell.
What we don’t need are toolkitbanners or blinks for warriors. I’m sorry but as Utrajoe already stated, banners are quite strong but are somewhat kept in balance by their unpleasant handling. Maybe a secondary skill with something like a 30 sec cooldown, starting once the banner was planted that brings the banner back into the hand of the warrior could work, but in return some of the banner utilities would have to go in return.

Agony.3542:

The buffs banners grant are already good enough. In fact the buffs these banners grant are extremely good, except for banner of tactics, but well the 2nd skill of that banner can work aswell.
What we don’t need are toolkitbanners or blinks for warriors. I’m sorry but as Utrajoe already stated, banners are quite strong but are somewhat kept in balance by their unpleasant handling. Maybe a secondary skill with something like a 30 sec cooldown, starting once the banner was planted that brings the banner back into the hand of the warrior could work, but in return some of the banner utilities would have to go in return.

BTW banner of Tactics is one of the most powerfull banners, +healing +boon duration is HUGE and the num2 on it is kick kitten especially with its synergy to banner regen specs.
Also, all this talk about how banners are SO POWERFULL is a load of kitten, alot of warriors have powefull skills that they can walk around with them and keep whenever they like, i dont see the difference if i invested my traits and a utlility in a banner and had a easyer time keeping it around me. I always go back to pick that banner up and move to the next area but that puts me out of position and not with the group witch can not fly in teir 1 wvw open feild combat.

Alot of good ideas here, hope Anet picks some of them up.

Agony.3542:

The buffs banners grant are already good enough. In fact the buffs these banners grant are extremely good, except for banner of tactics, but well the 2nd skill of that banner can work aswell.
What we don’t need are toolkitbanners or blinks for warriors. I’m sorry but as Utrajoe already stated, banners are quite strong but are somewhat kept in balance by their unpleasant handling. Maybe a secondary skill with something like a 30 sec cooldown, starting once the banner was planted that brings the banner back into the hand of the warrior could work, but in return some of the banner utilities would have to go in return.

Ok

Then… Good luck with banners

“First off, they’re NOT very mobile. That’s the issue”

Yeah get used it to it. Traps, turrets, smoke, spirits, fields, etc, are not particularly mobile either. Rangers have two entirely static utility lines with traps and spirits that need traits to make them worthwhile. You’ve a point that all utilities should be balanced, but to honest some classes have whole utility lines that are entirely dysfunctional and banners are just about fit for purpose (even if perceived as weak).

Hmm last time i played my warrior, banners were very powerful groupbuffs and a nice blastfinisher for mightstacking, did they change anything?

I run 2-3 banners constantly, and I’m just not seeing the problem…

I’ll take semi-mobile via hand-carry and INDESTRUCTABLE over every other version of spawn/tool out there. Ranger spirits, Guardian spirit weapons, Engineer turrets, Necro minions… Yeah. It ain’t broke. Don’t try to fix it.

…I fact, I’d really rather Devs didn’t look into banners at all – it can only get worse, considering the performance of the alternatives.

A unique buff that can not get REMOVED BY ANY SKILL, that WILL BOOST USEFUL STATS BY A LARGE AMOUNT and a potential permanent uptime with a large aoe needs to be buffed even more? I’m sorry but do you want warriors to become buff bots? like running around spamming your 7-9 so you can have all your banners at your position, because that is what will happen in wvw you buff banners in that way.

I’m actually with a rework of the picked up banner skills, these skills mostly suck and have often times little to no use at all. Sure tactic banner 2 is really good, but that thing is probably the most you will get out of the banner. The healing power of this skill scales horribly and in larger zergs the +boon duration might not reach the ones you “want it to reach”, where as everyone will profit from the +power and +cond damage of BoS or +toughness +vit of BoD.
In Dungeons Banner of Tactics is complete garbage. Healing ways are a complete waste of time, you may not die, but in the time your run finishes 1 path other groups will already have finished 6x that amount.

Making banners a part of the warriors class mechanic, like an equipable f2 skill, that lets you replant the banner with a decent, but not too high cd can work to counteract the clunkyness of banners, but that would in return limit the amount of banners a warrior can take in his utility slots to 1.

Also stop trying to make every skill good in every part of the game. Most of the skills have their respective field to be used. Take some of the mesmer manipulations for example. Illusion of life is garbage in Dungeons, since it wont rez players completely unlike skills like Signet of Undead but can be very valuable in pvp, since it can prevent stomps if used correctly.

Agony i disagree with about everything u just said.
I think were talking about 2 different reality’s on the the capabilities and true/good play styles for warrior.

btw if your running 3 banners for your utlitys your probably a scrub cause your a one trick pony, even with banner regen youll get stomped on. Only thing i agree with is the powerfull aoe buffs that cant be removed. Id rather see these get nerfed for better ease of use for banners and in turn more fun.

To the people complaining that banners are much better than their static utilities, and thus do not need work; Someone missing a hand does not need to stop hoping for a prosthetic just because other people in the world have lost their legs.

Banners are clunky right now in a way that conflicts with their purpose and, I would dare say, the hopes that the designers had for them. Asking for something simple like a means to retrieve them without stunning yourself for a second is not overkill. Hell, the core of my earlier suggestions all revolve around a simple fix; make the animation to pick up a banner the same as the one for improved supply pickups. That’s not OP, that’s not intensive coding, and it’s not an insult to you just because your spirits or traps or things aren’t that great. It’s just fixing a problem that exists.

Just because it’s just a smaller problem than yours doesn’t make it it invalid.

Banners just need to be added to the Warriors back, even if it means reduced effectiveness or reduced active time, I don’t care. If they are placed on the Warrior’s back when used it will allow warriors to be so much more support. As of right now I only use Banners in dungeon, after I’ve called them I never pick them up, I’d rather just wait for them to come off CD before using again.

Funkmachine how about reading what I actually wrote?

I did not say I would run with 3 banners, I just said what will happen if you start to let people move their banners with little to no effort at all. Stuff like that will get exploited to the max.

Also Banner of Tactics IS crap in Dungeons and Healing ways do suck there.

A burst skill that ground casts the banner to a new position sounds like a good start to me. Also, whoever said Powerful Banners is only hitting for 200- that’s really low. I’ve hit around 1k with it before.

Agony, when i wrote this thread i’m talking about T1/GvG combat NOT PVE. I dont care at all about your pve glass specs and views on how long a dungeon should take.

and about the 3 banners i wasnt aiming that at you, was something i read above.

banner of tactics+regen healing and healing power=Immortality

The devs said that banners are suppose to be the “Here is where I stand!” skills.

runeblade.7514:

The devs said that banners are suppose to be the “Here is where I stand!” skills.

Until someone runs off with it.

I like banners but don’t use them because they are a hassle to make sure they are near me or not ran off with other people that so often happens. I used to pick them up when looting(thankfully aoe loot fixed that.) This is pretty much the issue with banners that people have as those buffs are nice.

Pressing the summon banner skill to get your banner right next to you is a good idea but I would like to be able to get it near me more than once during a fight. Some of those zerg fights, especially if we open field, can cover a pretty big space.

To make it so you can’t just slot all 3 banner and keep them with you all the time, it can be set so that you can only recall 1 banner, first one you have skill slotted and if you have the other 2 out, they just stay where they are. I think the elite should just recall to you anytime you want it to recall to you, it is on a short duration with a long cool down.

Excalibur.9748:

I play a banner regen war in PvP and I think banners are awesome. Maybe this is more for WvW, since banners are extremely god like in PvE as well.

You will get /gkick from any serious WvW guild with your “awesome banners”. Just sayin.

Hey rednik, OnS supports banner regen specs. I guess thats why u get rocked by me. Keep following, its the best thing a follower can do.

If you cant make a spec that works that’s on you and it’ll be your downfall.

PS.(you dont need alot of banner spec war’s, 1 for every 15ppl is amazing and probably to confusing for you.)

Such fun post you make here.

Improve their range from 600 to 900, so I can grab it without stopping.

Making them off hand weapons could be interesting as well.

runeblade.7514:

The devs said that banners are suppose to be the “Here is where I stand!” skills.

And ranged classes say “And way over there is where I’ll kill you from!”

Dand.8231:

runeblade.7514:

The devs said that banners are suppose to be the “Here is where I stand!” skills.

And ranged classes say “And way over there is where I’ll kill you from!”

good for team bunker. problem is they dont stack

Funkmachine.9815:

Agony, when i wrote this thread i’m talking about T1/GvG combat NOT PVE. I dont care at all about your pve glass specs and views on how long a dungeon should take.

and about the 3 banners i wasnt aiming that at you, was something i read above.

banner of tactics+regen healing and healing power=Immortality

Then how about that:
I don’t care at all about your uber wvw specs and how much more uber you want to make them.
Banners are completely fine in pve, no need to fix something that is not broken.

Rednik.3809:

You will get /gkick from any serious WvW guild with your “awesome banners”. Just sayin.

I would /gkick myself from a super leet wvw guild who didn’t want to have a crit banner at the very least. oO