Guild Wars 2

From what I’ve been reading, most people have seemed to say that while headbutt certainly needed a nerf (among other things), the Shield Bash change is just garbage.

In bringing more visibility to this one item in particular, I’d like people to give their unbiased opinions, in case ANet cares to look or take a second thought in the event an overwhelming majority of people think it’s just not a good direction. Warrior needed nerfs, but this just makes it clunky.

I think the tournament/high level player base and general lack of warriors within speaks for itself.

It’s stupid easy to dodge so much of warriors CC right now.

Thoughts?

That’s exactly the issue.

I think for some time, Anet’s design concept for warriors has been highly telegraphed high damage skills. The telegraph is what gave counterplay, and the trick to succeeding was setup skills and defense baiting.

The problem is, our setup skills have been degraded over the years, with the proliferation of stun breaks and other defenses (evades, etc), as well as the reduced value of immobilize, after HoT was released. Our damage relative to other classes also doesn’t seem to warrant the high telegraphs anymore.

This was offset somewhat for warrior by skills that were overtuned like Headbutt and Arc Divider, because they were easier to land than normal for warrior skills that do that much damage.

Those skills were rightly nerfed (AD should have been done differently), but the nerf to Shield Bash took a reasonably balanced setup skill and made it much easier to dodge.

In other words, it made it so a setup skill needs its own setup, which isn’t great, because there are limits to the number of skills we can bring to bare (I.e. we’re bit on an initiative system, we generally need our stances, etc).

I feel like it leveled the playing field for Warriors who do not run meta. Now there is a opening to push back against.

The only problem is that it came through a nerf.

Those tells made sense back before HoT because everyone had 2 dodges and maybe 1 stun break to burn through before you mashed someone’s head in.

Thankfully, you had 3 stuns, Shield Bash, Bull’s Charge, and Skullcrack. 1 dodge usually gets burned on weapon skills, so a warrior would eventually reach a situation where damage could be landed through one of these setup skills.

But now with HoT, stun breaks are everywhere with low cd’s. Why? Because they added more CC everywhere. The thing is, Warrior can’t actually slot more stuns without giving up their stances (usually you only get 1 free utility since Endure Pain and Zerker Stance are typically mandatory). So defenses increase, but offense (for warrior) didn’t.

Thus making it difficult to land setup skills. If Warrior had more natural defenses in their weapon skills/traits, then you could run all the cc’s you’d ever want and actually land them (burn through limited defenses with raw output), except against Daredevil of course which is up to him to screw up his dodges.

Also ignore Throw Bolas. It’s worse than Kick. Kick has the benefit of 12 second cd (9 if traited lol), so you can use it to bait stun breaks (even outrage), but because it’s a knockback it’s hard to follow up with damage. But throw bolas? Wonky projectile, and a 4 second immobolize that can get purged super easily (if you’re power)? You’re better off with just taking longbow, at least you get guaranteed CI procs.

Buffing Bolas to be either AoE, Pulses Immob like ranger root, or gives a pull would make it easier to land setup skills even without shield bash.

all warriors skills are like underwater,1 sec on anything literaly.in meantime,mesmer gona oneshot you from invis in 0,5 sec.
just small comparison:

war shield >Bash your foe with your shield and stun them.

mesmer>Block incoming attacks for a short duration. If this skill fully channels, summon a phantasm that slows enemies and grants alacrity to allies. If an attack is blocked, Deja Vu is usable for a short time.

war>Block attacks.

mesmer>Launch a wave of temporal energy that damages and stops enemies it passes through and buffs allies. The wave then returns to you. Touching the returning wave reduces the recharge of this skill.

oh and try to guess which one was nerfed….

Its widely agreed that it was uncalled for

Shield Bash was also a smart way to interrupt key moves, now it’s just another stun to open bursts.

I hope they’ll make a change to make it istant cast while in Shield Stance, to open new way to fight.

This is why i have multiple classes. I was a naive MMO player when i started playing GW2 and felt that i could simply play one class all the time.

However ANET’s method of heavy handed nerfing (and making stuff OP) forced me to try different classes and so now im back to playing my DH in wvw and finding im liking it better than my War even tho i have more hours on my War.

I have already adapted to the headbutt changes. It was hardly as bad as was suggested and is still a very deadly skill. Shiled bash a bit harder.

Kiroshima.8497:

Those tells made sense back before HoT because everyone had 2 dodges and maybe 1 stun break to burn through before you mashed someone’s head in.

Thankfully, you had 3 stuns, Shield Bash, Bull’s Charge, and Skullcrack. 1 dodge usually gets burned on weapon skills, so a warrior would eventually reach a situation where damage could be landed through one of these setup skills.

But now with HoT, stun breaks are everywhere with low cd’s. Why? Because they added more CC everywhere. The thing is, Warrior can’t actually slot more stuns without giving up their stances (usually you only get 1 free utility since Endure Pain and Zerker Stance are typically mandatory). So defenses increase, but offense (for warrior) didn’t.

Thus making it difficult to land setup skills. If Warrior had more natural defenses in their weapon skills/traits, then you could run all the cc’s you’d ever want and actually land them (burn through limited defenses with raw output), except against Daredevil of course which is up to him to screw up his dodges.

Also ignore Throw Bolas. It’s worse than Kick. Kick has the benefit of 12 second cd (9 if traited lol), so you can use it to bait stun breaks (even outrage), but because it’s a knockback it’s hard to follow up with damage. But throw bolas? Wonky projectile, and a 4 second immobolize that can get purged super easily (if you’re power)? You’re better off with just taking longbow, at least you get guaranteed CI procs.

Buffing Bolas to be either AoE, Pulses Immob like ranger root, or gives a pull would make it easier to land setup skills even without shield bash.

.

Endure pain is not mandatory. I find zerker stance more a requirement, There other ways to avoid direct damge then relying on 4 seconds of invuln every 60. I dropped it a long time ago and feel I am better off for it . Indeed I see endure as more a liability given you can do something better with that utility slot.

babazhook.6805:

Kiroshima.8497:

Those tells made sense back before HoT because everyone had 2 dodges and maybe 1 stun break to burn through before you mashed someone’s head in.

Thankfully, you had 3 stuns, Shield Bash, Bull’s Charge, and Skullcrack. 1 dodge usually gets burned on weapon skills, so a warrior would eventually reach a situation where damage could be landed through one of these setup skills.

But now with HoT, stun breaks are everywhere with low cd’s. Why? Because they added more CC everywhere. The thing is, Warrior can’t actually slot more stuns without giving up their stances (usually you only get 1 free utility since Endure Pain and Zerker Stance are typically mandatory). So defenses increase, but offense (for warrior) didn’t.

Thus making it difficult to land setup skills. If Warrior had more natural defenses in their weapon skills/traits, then you could run all the cc’s you’d ever want and actually land them (burn through limited defenses with raw output), except against Daredevil of course which is up to him to screw up his dodges.

Also ignore Throw Bolas. It’s worse than Kick. Kick has the benefit of 12 second cd (9 if traited lol), so you can use it to bait stun breaks (even outrage), but because it’s a knockback it’s hard to follow up with damage. But throw bolas? Wonky projectile, and a 4 second immobolize that can get purged super easily (if you’re power)? You’re better off with just taking longbow, at least you get guaranteed CI procs.

Buffing Bolas to be either AoE, Pulses Immob like ranger root, or gives a pull would make it easier to land setup skills even without shield bash.

.

Endure pain is not mandatory. I find zerker stance more a requirement, There other ways to avoid direct damge then relying on 4 seconds of invuln every 60. I dropped it a long time ago and feel I am better off for it . Indeed I see endure as more a liability given you can do something better with that utility slot.

So youve never been jumped by a thief while already fighting ? I think Berserk stance / outrage / endure pain are a must.

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

Kiroshima.8497:

Those tells made sense back before HoT because everyone had 2 dodges and maybe 1 stun break to burn through before you mashed someone’s head in.

Thankfully, you had 3 stuns, Shield Bash, Bull’s Charge, and Skullcrack. 1 dodge usually gets burned on weapon skills, so a warrior would eventually reach a situation where damage could be landed through one of these setup skills.

But now with HoT, stun breaks are everywhere with low cd’s. Why? Because they added more CC everywhere. The thing is, Warrior can’t actually slot more stuns without giving up their stances (usually you only get 1 free utility since Endure Pain and Zerker Stance are typically mandatory). So defenses increase, but offense (for warrior) didn’t.

Thus making it difficult to land setup skills. If Warrior had more natural defenses in their weapon skills/traits, then you could run all the cc’s you’d ever want and actually land them (burn through limited defenses with raw output), except against Daredevil of course which is up to him to screw up his dodges.

Also ignore Throw Bolas. It’s worse than Kick. Kick has the benefit of 12 second cd (9 if traited lol), so you can use it to bait stun breaks (even outrage), but because it’s a knockback it’s hard to follow up with damage. But throw bolas? Wonky projectile, and a 4 second immobolize that can get purged super easily (if you’re power)? You’re better off with just taking longbow, at least you get guaranteed CI procs.

Buffing Bolas to be either AoE, Pulses Immob like ranger root, or gives a pull would make it easier to land setup skills even without shield bash.

.

Endure pain is not mandatory. I find zerker stance more a requirement, There other ways to avoid direct damge then relying on 4 seconds of invuln every 60. I dropped it a long time ago and feel I am better off for it . Indeed I see endure as more a liability given you can do something better with that utility slot.

So youve never been jumped by a thief while already fighting ? I think Berserk stance / outrage / endure pain are a must.

I have dodges and blocks and CC all of which can counter the thief along with much more health then he has and better armor so no , I do not find myself being jumped by a thief whereby a 4 second invuln on a 60 second cooldown is all I have that can save me.

Endure pain is not a must, proof being I do not take it and do fine.

babazhook.6805:

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

Kiroshima.8497:

Those tells made sense back before HoT because everyone had 2 dodges and maybe 1 stun break to burn through before you mashed someone’s head in.

Thankfully, you had 3 stuns, Shield Bash, Bull’s Charge, and Skullcrack. 1 dodge usually gets burned on weapon skills, so a warrior would eventually reach a situation where damage could be landed through one of these setup skills.

But now with HoT, stun breaks are everywhere with low cd’s. Why? Because they added more CC everywhere. The thing is, Warrior can’t actually slot more stuns without giving up their stances (usually you only get 1 free utility since Endure Pain and Zerker Stance are typically mandatory). So defenses increase, but offense (for warrior) didn’t.

Thus making it difficult to land setup skills. If Warrior had more natural defenses in their weapon skills/traits, then you could run all the cc’s you’d ever want and actually land them (burn through limited defenses with raw output), except against Daredevil of course which is up to him to screw up his dodges.

Also ignore Throw Bolas. It’s worse than Kick. Kick has the benefit of 12 second cd (9 if traited lol), so you can use it to bait stun breaks (even outrage), but because it’s a knockback it’s hard to follow up with damage. But throw bolas? Wonky projectile, and a 4 second immobolize that can get purged super easily (if you’re power)? You’re better off with just taking longbow, at least you get guaranteed CI procs.

Buffing Bolas to be either AoE, Pulses Immob like ranger root, or gives a pull would make it easier to land setup skills even without shield bash.

.

Endure pain is not mandatory. I find zerker stance more a requirement, There other ways to avoid direct damge then relying on 4 seconds of invuln every 60. I dropped it a long time ago and feel I am better off for it . Indeed I see endure as more a liability given you can do something better with that utility slot.

So youve never been jumped by a thief while already fighting ? I think Berserk stance / outrage / endure pain are a must.

I have dodges and blocks and CC all of which can counter the thief along with much more health then he has and better armor so no , I do not find myself being jumped by a thief whereby a 4 second invuln on a 60 second cooldown is all I have that can save me.

Endure pain is not a must, proof being I do not take it and do fine.

Being in a fight is situational where you can be out of dodges and then jumped with no block left for e.g,.Its a must for being viable in a team comp.,theres dozens of situations to name where ep is a killer.

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

Kiroshima.8497:

Those tells made sense back before HoT because everyone had 2 dodges and maybe 1 stun break to burn through before you mashed someone’s head in.

Thankfully, you had 3 stuns, Shield Bash, Bull’s Charge, and Skullcrack. 1 dodge usually gets burned on weapon skills, so a warrior would eventually reach a situation where damage could be landed through one of these setup skills.

But now with HoT, stun breaks are everywhere with low cd’s. Why? Because they added more CC everywhere. The thing is, Warrior can’t actually slot more stuns without giving up their stances (usually you only get 1 free utility since Endure Pain and Zerker Stance are typically mandatory). So defenses increase, but offense (for warrior) didn’t.

Thus making it difficult to land setup skills. If Warrior had more natural defenses in their weapon skills/traits, then you could run all the cc’s you’d ever want and actually land them (burn through limited defenses with raw output), except against Daredevil of course which is up to him to screw up his dodges.

Also ignore Throw Bolas. It’s worse than Kick. Kick has the benefit of 12 second cd (9 if traited lol), so you can use it to bait stun breaks (even outrage), but because it’s a knockback it’s hard to follow up with damage. But throw bolas? Wonky projectile, and a 4 second immobolize that can get purged super easily (if you’re power)? You’re better off with just taking longbow, at least you get guaranteed CI procs.

Buffing Bolas to be either AoE, Pulses Immob like ranger root, or gives a pull would make it easier to land setup skills even without shield bash.

.

Endure pain is not mandatory. I find zerker stance more a requirement, There other ways to avoid direct damge then relying on 4 seconds of invuln every 60. I dropped it a long time ago and feel I am better off for it . Indeed I see endure as more a liability given you can do something better with that utility slot.

So youve never been jumped by a thief while already fighting ? I think Berserk stance / outrage / endure pain are a must.

I have dodges and blocks and CC all of which can counter the thief along with much more health then he has and better armor so no , I do not find myself being jumped by a thief whereby a 4 second invuln on a 60 second cooldown is all I have that can save me.

Endure pain is not a must, proof being I do not take it and do fine.

Being in a fight is situational where you can be out of dodges and then jumped with no block left for e.g,.Its a must for being viable in a team comp.,theres dozens of situations to name where ep is a killer.

To each their own. You might find it a requirement. I do not and prefer other Utilities that are more usable and have better uptime. 95 percent of the time it does nothing for you as it on cooldown. . I look at it this way. if I can stay alive on my warrior for 56 seconds out of 60 without using EP why of a sudden is that last 4 seconds going to suddenly do me in wherein it becomes mandatory i take it?

While I do not currently use it, something like KICK against a thief can be used 5 times in the span of time it takes EP to come off cooldown. A block or dodge is generally enough against Thief burst which they generally can not sustain for 4 seconds long attacks in any case. It certainly more useful in larger scale group fights but it still only 4 seconds every 60 whereas other utilities can be doing more to help you for those other 56 seconds.

Zerker stance is another matter entirely given it provides pulsing resistance that can reach a peak of near 30 seconds resistance along with all that adrenaline on that same 60 second cooldown.

The reason why Endure Pain is good is because it scales infinitely with the number of enemy attacks, while other abilities do not. Unless you ALWAYS get 1v1s, Endure Pain is always a good option to negate any power damage for 4 seconds. It can’t be blocked, corrupted, interrupted, anything. Whether you get jumped by 1 thief or 10 thieves, it performs just as well. Also a stun break if you really need rousing resilience or free stab and might from Eternal Champion. Additionally, it’s basically a healing skill on its own, since Warrior works off of regen, it’s 4 seconds of uninterrupted healing, a lot of classes would kill for uninterruptable healing. Assuming full marauders, you get 1528, not bad for a utility skill, and with 3 stacks of Adrenal Health, it goes up to 3508. If you’re really good at timing, you can chain that into the auto Endure Pain for another 4 seconds, bringing you up to 3056/7016. All while allowing you to go full offense when being focused by 1-infinite number of power builds. Honestly Endure Pain is probably one of the better designed skills on Warrior, long cooldown, large impact, good synergy with traits, and fits thematically with an unstoppable juggernaut.

Taking CC utilities that are not named Wild Blow is pointless since they either have long cds for their effect (bull’s charge and stomp), are Throw Bolas bad (like scorp wire and spectral grasp), or aren’t terrible but just doesn’t setup much (like Kick). Kick isn’t the worst skill, a 9 second cooldown when traited that breaks immob is hilarious but it doesn’t really enable much since it has 300 range and is kinda slow. Also, Wild Blow does the exact same thing, but also gives Adrenaline (even on whiff), cleanses Blind and Weakness (got a thief spamming blind? give them the falcon punch), and does huge damage and is a guaranteed crit.

But Wild Blow and Headbutt are super overloaded for their cooldown so it isn’t fair to compare them to Physicals =P

I stated that Endure pain works better at large scale but that does not mean it mandatory. Further to that I have found that at that large scale where there many combatants on the enemy side the number of times it has in fact saved me from death are rather few in the great scheme of things.

This generally because it not needed to save you if your side is winning and if your side losing it generally just delays the inevitable just as being jumped by 10 thieves would delay the inevitable.

For the past days I have been playing inside a zerg with my warrior and there only one time that stood at where Endure pain would have saved him that when his shield blocks were down, he was focused by 5 + and was seperated from the group. He tried to get back to the group and would have had he EP . These few occasions where it does this IMHO do not make it mandatory. Further to that if you really wanted to help the group , banner play would do more for the same then giving yourself EP.

On the other hand there other utilities I can slot in there that are much more usable and accessible that come into play far more then 4 seconds out of 60. For my own power build I favor more signet use as even acting passively they provide benefits. On my condition build I like the rage skills as they can magnify the number of conditions applied, something endure pain does not do.

To your point on healing. I have given links to my power build wherein I have ample starting Vitality (26k plus) and armor. This means I am not as reliant on uninterrupted heals when compared to warriors using more zerker like builds.

I used to trait EP on this same warrior and no longer do for those reasons.

I mean as long as you’re using like mace/shield it’s fine, since I run Axe/Torch/Longbow for all the King of Fire procs i definitely have to take Endure Pain and Shattering Blow to have any defenses at all xD.

Kiroshima.8497:

I mean as long as you’re using like mace/shield it’s fine, since I run Axe/Torch/Longbow for all the King of Fire procs i definitely have to take Endure Pain and Shattering Blow to have any defenses at all xD.

I tend not to use mace/shield although I carry all weapons with me outside the LB and switch off with varying combo’s. I prefer sw/shield one hand for my own build and with the other can go everything from GS to axe/mace. (this Power)

On my condition build, I put my warrior in settlers armor and when used in conjunction with those rage skills and over 3.8k armor do not really need EP my heals so high. It weaker to conditions but EP is of no use there.

My main uses axe/axe and either longbow or rifle on weapon swap, so I tend to run endure pain and scrapper runes as a reasonable substitute for a shield. Sometimes, I will swap other skills in for endure pain if I feel the matchup/situation needs it.

Whether you want Endure Pain or not is certainly predicated on the build and what you do with it but it not mandatory. Just as example, signet of Fury is not used by many, but my own build generates 480 precision off that thing along with 90 extra adrenaline in that 60 second period it takes endure pain to come off cooldown. I think that pretty decent given it as much precision as can be generated off a full set of Zerker armor with weapons thrown in along with twice the adrenaline that Zerker stance provides.

Sheild bash is still pretty good in small scale punch ups but don’t expect to land it in 1v1s all of the time. Using it at point blank range helps to land it more reliably too.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Sheild bash is still pretty good in small scale punch ups but don’t expect to land it in 1v1s all of the time. Using it at point blank range helps to land it more reliably too.

Pretty much this and in line with a number of other skills acorss all classes. Get in tight and the success rate goes up.

babazhook.6805:

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

Kiroshima.8497:

Those tells made sense back before HoT because everyone had 2 dodges and maybe 1 stun break to burn through before you mashed someone’s head in.

Thankfully, you had 3 stuns, Shield Bash, Bull’s Charge, and Skullcrack. 1 dodge usually gets burned on weapon skills, so a warrior would eventually reach a situation where damage could be landed through one of these setup skills.

But now with HoT, stun breaks are everywhere with low cd’s. Why? Because they added more CC everywhere. The thing is, Warrior can’t actually slot more stuns without giving up their stances (usually you only get 1 free utility since Endure Pain and Zerker Stance are typically mandatory). So defenses increase, but offense (for warrior) didn’t.

Thus making it difficult to land setup skills. If Warrior had more natural defenses in their weapon skills/traits, then you could run all the cc’s you’d ever want and actually land them (burn through limited defenses with raw output), except against Daredevil of course which is up to him to screw up his dodges.

Also ignore Throw Bolas. It’s worse than Kick. Kick has the benefit of 12 second cd (9 if traited lol), so you can use it to bait stun breaks (even outrage), but because it’s a knockback it’s hard to follow up with damage. But throw bolas? Wonky projectile, and a 4 second immobolize that can get purged super easily (if you’re power)? You’re better off with just taking longbow, at least you get guaranteed CI procs.

Buffing Bolas to be either AoE, Pulses Immob like ranger root, or gives a pull would make it easier to land setup skills even without shield bash.

.

Endure pain is not mandatory. I find zerker stance more a requirement, There other ways to avoid direct damge then relying on 4 seconds of invuln every 60. I dropped it a long time ago and feel I am better off for it . Indeed I see endure as more a liability given you can do something better with that utility slot.

So youve never been jumped by a thief while already fighting ? I think Berserk stance / outrage / endure pain are a must.

I have dodges and blocks and CC all of which can counter the thief along with much more health then he has and better armor so no , I do not find myself being jumped by a thief whereby a 4 second invuln on a 60 second cooldown is all I have that can save me.

Endure pain is not a must, proof being I do not take it and do fine.

lol you have no way to dodge, block or CC a thief who decide to gank you with steal while you are already in combat

lighter.2708:

babazhook.6805:

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

Kiroshima.8497:

Those tells made sense back before HoT because everyone had 2 dodges and maybe 1 stun break to burn through before you mashed someone’s head in.

Thankfully, you had 3 stuns, Shield Bash, Bull’s Charge, and Skullcrack. 1 dodge usually gets burned on weapon skills, so a warrior would eventually reach a situation where damage could be landed through one of these setup skills.

But now with HoT, stun breaks are everywhere with low cd’s. Why? Because they added more CC everywhere. The thing is, Warrior can’t actually slot more stuns without giving up their stances (usually you only get 1 free utility since Endure Pain and Zerker Stance are typically mandatory). So defenses increase, but offense (for warrior) didn’t.

Thus making it difficult to land setup skills. If Warrior had more natural defenses in their weapon skills/traits, then you could run all the cc’s you’d ever want and actually land them (burn through limited defenses with raw output), except against Daredevil of course which is up to him to screw up his dodges.

Also ignore Throw Bolas. It’s worse than Kick. Kick has the benefit of 12 second cd (9 if traited lol), so you can use it to bait stun breaks (even outrage), but because it’s a knockback it’s hard to follow up with damage. But throw bolas? Wonky projectile, and a 4 second immobolize that can get purged super easily (if you’re power)? You’re better off with just taking longbow, at least you get guaranteed CI procs.

Buffing Bolas to be either AoE, Pulses Immob like ranger root, or gives a pull would make it easier to land setup skills even without shield bash.

.

Endure pain is not mandatory. I find zerker stance more a requirement, There other ways to avoid direct damge then relying on 4 seconds of invuln every 60. I dropped it a long time ago and feel I am better off for it . Indeed I see endure as more a liability given you can do something better with that utility slot.

So youve never been jumped by a thief while already fighting ? I think Berserk stance / outrage / endure pain are a must.

I have dodges and blocks and CC all of which can counter the thief along with much more health then he has and better armor so no , I do not find myself being jumped by a thief whereby a 4 second invuln on a 60 second cooldown is all I have that can save me.

Endure pain is not a must, proof being I do not take it and do fine.

lol you have no way to dodge, block or CC a thief who decide to gank you with steal while you are already in combat

LOL if I am ganked while in combat and have EP I still have to REACT meaning he has already hit me . LOL if the EP already on cooldown because of combat it is not doing me any good just as would be the case if I already used up my shield blocks and dodges. LOL shield is on a 20 second cooldown compared to 60 meaning I can use it three times for every one time that I get EP . LOL the one time in 50 where I am ganked in Combat where that EP just MIGHT be off cooldown and available to use wherein it might save me from being downed is not worth it compared to other things I can be using with that slot LOL. LOL in game terms I am 3 times more likely to have a shield block available then th EP block and that is plenty enough for me. LOL

babazhook.6805:

lighter.2708:

babazhook.6805:

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

Kiroshima.8497:

Those tells made sense back before HoT because everyone had 2 dodges and maybe 1 stun break to burn through before you mashed someone’s head in.

Thankfully, you had 3 stuns, Shield Bash, Bull’s Charge, and Skullcrack. 1 dodge usually gets burned on weapon skills, so a warrior would eventually reach a situation where damage could be landed through one of these setup skills.

But now with HoT, stun breaks are everywhere with low cd’s. Why? Because they added more CC everywhere. The thing is, Warrior can’t actually slot more stuns without giving up their stances (usually you only get 1 free utility since Endure Pain and Zerker Stance are typically mandatory). So defenses increase, but offense (for warrior) didn’t.

Thus making it difficult to land setup skills. If Warrior had more natural defenses in their weapon skills/traits, then you could run all the cc’s you’d ever want and actually land them (burn through limited defenses with raw output), except against Daredevil of course which is up to him to screw up his dodges.

Also ignore Throw Bolas. It’s worse than Kick. Kick has the benefit of 12 second cd (9 if traited lol), so you can use it to bait stun breaks (even outrage), but because it’s a knockback it’s hard to follow up with damage. But throw bolas? Wonky projectile, and a 4 second immobolize that can get purged super easily (if you’re power)? You’re better off with just taking longbow, at least you get guaranteed CI procs.

Buffing Bolas to be either AoE, Pulses Immob like ranger root, or gives a pull would make it easier to land setup skills even without shield bash.

.

Endure pain is not mandatory. I find zerker stance more a requirement, There other ways to avoid direct damge then relying on 4 seconds of invuln every 60. I dropped it a long time ago and feel I am better off for it . Indeed I see endure as more a liability given you can do something better with that utility slot.

So youve never been jumped by a thief while already fighting ? I think Berserk stance / outrage / endure pain are a must.

I have dodges and blocks and CC all of which can counter the thief along with much more health then he has and better armor so no , I do not find myself being jumped by a thief whereby a 4 second invuln on a 60 second cooldown is all I have that can save me.

Endure pain is not a must, proof being I do not take it and do fine.

lol you have no way to dodge, block or CC a thief who decide to gank you with steal while you are already in combat

LOL if I am ganked while in combat and have EP I still have to REACT meaning he has already hit me . LOL if the EP already on cooldown because of combat it is not doing me any good just as would be the case if I already used up my shield blocks and dodges. LOL shield is on a 20 second cooldown compared to 60 meaning I can use it three times for every one time that I get EP . LOL the one time in 50 where I am ganked in Combat where that EP just MIGHT be off cooldown and available to use wherein it might save me from being downed is not worth it compared to other things I can be using with that slot LOL. LOL in game terms I am 3 times more likely to have a shield block available then th EP block and that is plenty enough for me. LOL

clearly you dont play thief

lighter.2708:

babazhook.6805:

lighter.2708:

babazhook.6805:

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

Kiroshima.8497:

Those tells made sense back before HoT because everyone had 2 dodges and maybe 1 stun break to burn through before you mashed someone’s head in.

Thankfully, you had 3 stuns, Shield Bash, Bull’s Charge, and Skullcrack. 1 dodge usually gets burned on weapon skills, so a warrior would eventually reach a situation where damage could be landed through one of these setup skills.

But now with HoT, stun breaks are everywhere with low cd’s. Why? Because they added more CC everywhere. The thing is, Warrior can’t actually slot more stuns without giving up their stances (usually you only get 1 free utility since Endure Pain and Zerker Stance are typically mandatory). So defenses increase, but offense (for warrior) didn’t.

Thus making it difficult to land setup skills. If Warrior had more natural defenses in their weapon skills/traits, then you could run all the cc’s you’d ever want and actually land them (burn through limited defenses with raw output), except against Daredevil of course which is up to him to screw up his dodges.

Also ignore Throw Bolas. It’s worse than Kick. Kick has the benefit of 12 second cd (9 if traited lol), so you can use it to bait stun breaks (even outrage), but because it’s a knockback it’s hard to follow up with damage. But throw bolas? Wonky projectile, and a 4 second immobolize that can get purged super easily (if you’re power)? You’re better off with just taking longbow, at least you get guaranteed CI procs.

Buffing Bolas to be either AoE, Pulses Immob like ranger root, or gives a pull would make it easier to land setup skills even without shield bash.

.

Endure pain is not mandatory. I find zerker stance more a requirement, There other ways to avoid direct damge then relying on 4 seconds of invuln every 60. I dropped it a long time ago and feel I am better off for it . Indeed I see endure as more a liability given you can do something better with that utility slot.

So youve never been jumped by a thief while already fighting ? I think Berserk stance / outrage / endure pain are a must.

I have dodges and blocks and CC all of which can counter the thief along with much more health then he has and better armor so no , I do not find myself being jumped by a thief whereby a 4 second invuln on a 60 second cooldown is all I have that can save me.

Endure pain is not a must, proof being I do not take it and do fine.

lol you have no way to dodge, block or CC a thief who decide to gank you with steal while you are already in combat

LOL if I am ganked while in combat and have EP I still have to REACT meaning he has already hit me . LOL if the EP already on cooldown because of combat it is not doing me any good just as would be the case if I already used up my shield blocks and dodges. LOL shield is on a 20 second cooldown compared to 60 meaning I can use it three times for every one time that I get EP . LOL the one time in 50 where I am ganked in Combat where that EP just MIGHT be off cooldown and available to use wherein it might save me from being downed is not worth it compared to other things I can be using with that slot LOL. LOL in game terms I am 3 times more likely to have a shield block available then th EP block and that is plenty enough for me. LOL

clearly you dont play thief

Clearly yo do not know what you are talking about. I now have five of them, one reason why I can probably fight them on my warrior without having to rely on EP on a 60 second cooldown.

EP is not mandatory. Far from it.

lighter.2708:

babazhook.6805:

lighter.2708:

babazhook.6805:

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

Kiroshima.8497:

Those tells made sense back before HoT because everyone had 2 dodges and maybe 1 stun break to burn through before you mashed someone’s head in.

Thankfully, you had 3 stuns, Shield Bash, Bull’s Charge, and Skullcrack. 1 dodge usually gets burned on weapon skills, so a warrior would eventually reach a situation where damage could be landed through one of these setup skills.

But now with HoT, stun breaks are everywhere with low cd’s. Why? Because they added more CC everywhere. The thing is, Warrior can’t actually slot more stuns without giving up their stances (usually you only get 1 free utility since Endure Pain and Zerker Stance are typically mandatory). So defenses increase, but offense (for warrior) didn’t.

Thus making it difficult to land setup skills. If Warrior had more natural defenses in their weapon skills/traits, then you could run all the cc’s you’d ever want and actually land them (burn through limited defenses with raw output), except against Daredevil of course which is up to him to screw up his dodges.

Also ignore Throw Bolas. It’s worse than Kick. Kick has the benefit of 12 second cd (9 if traited lol), so you can use it to bait stun breaks (even outrage), but because it’s a knockback it’s hard to follow up with damage. But throw bolas? Wonky projectile, and a 4 second immobolize that can get purged super easily (if you’re power)? You’re better off with just taking longbow, at least you get guaranteed CI procs.

Buffing Bolas to be either AoE, Pulses Immob like ranger root, or gives a pull would make it easier to land setup skills even without shield bash.

.

Endure pain is not mandatory. I find zerker stance more a requirement, There other ways to avoid direct damge then relying on 4 seconds of invuln every 60. I dropped it a long time ago and feel I am better off for it . Indeed I see endure as more a liability given you can do something better with that utility slot.

So youve never been jumped by a thief while already fighting ? I think Berserk stance / outrage / endure pain are a must.

I have dodges and blocks and CC all of which can counter the thief along with much more health then he has and better armor so no , I do not find myself being jumped by a thief whereby a 4 second invuln on a 60 second cooldown is all I have that can save me.

Endure pain is not a must, proof being I do not take it and do fine.

lol you have no way to dodge, block or CC a thief who decide to gank you with steal while you are already in combat

LOL if I am ganked while in combat and have EP I still have to REACT meaning he has already hit me . LOL if the EP already on cooldown because of combat it is not doing me any good just as would be the case if I already used up my shield blocks and dodges. LOL shield is on a 20 second cooldown compared to 60 meaning I can use it three times for every one time that I get EP . LOL the one time in 50 where I am ganked in Combat where that EP just MIGHT be off cooldown and available to use wherein it might save me from being downed is not worth it compared to other things I can be using with that slot LOL. LOL in game terms I am 3 times more likely to have a shield block available then th EP block and that is plenty enough for me. LOL

clearly you dont play thief

on the contrary, thats how we know how to beat a thief “easier” is becauser we have played them, me for that matter 3 years… we know when and what to do but ofc there will always be a better player then us

I take EP because having 8 seconds of invuln over the course of the fight as an already hard hitting class is not only incredibly strong in 1v1’s, but is the only real choice for a utility in something like a 1vX. 60 Seconds is irrelevant in the course of a fight if you aren’t garbage at actually downing people. 4 seconds of invuln gets rid of a mesmer burst, thieves opening, guardian zoning, and effectively allows you to hard counter in my opinion the situations that are actually scary as a warrior even with adrenal heals going (large power bursts). With cleansing Ire, weapon swap removal, berserker stance, and good blocks, condi application is fighting against adrenal health and so many other things. If you are fighting decent high damage people who will patiently try to open on you, EP wins out. If you’re fighting garbos, sure, take whatever you want.

Back on topic, SHIELD BASH getting nerfed is really horrible vs Thief spam evade. Getting close is hard enough but with that telegraph, anybody with half a brain will dodge any setup we have. Having a quicker animation could at least get you some good timings as a thief or other class comes out of a roll. It’s so sluggish now that even baiting dodges is inconsistent.

I modified my main to include a healthy amount of quickness, I ended up dropping the skill bar Endure Pain ( I still have it traited) and I replaced it with Beserk. One of my weapons also has Sigil of Rage and I have Heightened Focus traited as well.

I dropped my Beloved Axe/Axe, I cannot stomach the 50% speed bug any longer, last night I was really getting frustrated and loosing way too many fights, without the speed boost I cannot chase anyone down, or do any serious body hugging.

So I picked up sword and shield to supplement my rifle. I now have much better mobility and two immobilizes. I am sitting around 30% boon duration and the quickness uptime is making Shield Bash feel pretty good along with the rifle.

When one is talking about “evade spam” as it relates to the thief it worth noting there are two types of evades that happen for quite different reasons.

There is the Dodge evade generally used to evade combat and reaction to a tell from an attacker tht gives the thief the time to react and evade the incoming blow. For these the longer activation time on Shield bash makes that attack easier to avoid.

There is then the evades that happen through the animation of a given weapon skill that has built in evade and in particular Vault and Deathblossom. The longer activation time on headbutt and shield bash in fact makes it easier to get a stun to connect. While you might will eat a given attack , if you launch shield bash right after the thief starts his next vault or DB, the odds of that connecting go up.

Actually there is a third, Staff 3 which has no animation to commit to (the thief just jumps back while evading) and costs less initiative (4, very cheap) than vault. This skill is much more annoying to deal with against Staff Master thieves since it purges immob and refunds endurance. If they are Staff Acrobatics, the evades even feed into initiative (1 extra every 3 seconds, lose some damage but much more sustain/dodge feedback loop).

But as you say the Vault and Deathblossom thieves are much more predictable and there’s parts of the skills that don’t have evade frames. Mace 3 is the easiest way to interrupt these skills but shield bash is definitely doable. I wouldn’t risk Headbutt since it does so much damage and if you miss you’ll miss the extra adrenaline.

Staff #3 is used more of a defensive evade like flanking strike more then anything

Yeah Staff 3 is one I tend just to ignore when facing it as you will have little success reacting to it in time and getting your own counter to connect at the added range that it leaves the thief at. That all said this just another of the reasons I do not think EP required in a warrior build, specifically one using x/shield.

As a thief when I face EP i can afford a 4 second wait. if I got the warrior in the position where he has to use EP to extend a fight I can get him there again and can easily avoid combat those 4 seconds even as my own INI rebuilds. Thief is designed to break off an reset so it not something they suddenly can not do because INVULN running. When I am on a warrior , I much prefer something that will directly affect that thief such as another interrupt source or something that has provided me benefits all along that do not put me into the position where invuln needed. On my condition warrior, as example I have rage skills traited each applying burns and each acting as further interrupts wherein I can chain several in a row. One misses, another hits and can be available again to me 15 seconds later.

When I am on my thief it THOSE types of warriors that give me the most issues as they are much better at keeping the pressure on. They just have more stuff Io have to dodge. Good theives do not waste opening burst on someone with shield block up or in his 4 seconds of EP running.

Contray to the claims of some, thieves do not have infinite dodges and the more I can force him into using within a short period of time, the better position I am in. If he always using evades and dodges to avoid stuff incoming , i got more then my 4 seconds every 60 of taking no damage.

Back to the shield bash itself as it pertains to vault and DB. In essence in works better against the “bad thieves” that spam vault and DB then those that mix it up

babazhook.6805:

Yeah Staff 3 is one I tend just to ignore when facing it as you will have little success reacting to it in time and getting your own counter to connect at the added range that it leaves the thief at. That all said this just another of the reasons I do not think EP required in a warrior build, specifically one using x/shield.

As a thief when I face EP i can afford a 4 second wait. if I got the warrior in the position where he has to use EP to extend a fight I can get him there again and can easily avoid combat those 4 seconds even as my own INI rebuilds. Thief is designed to break off an reset so it not something they suddenly can not do because INVULN running. When I am on a warrior , I much prefer something that will directly affect that thief such as another interrupt source or something that has provided me benefits all along that do not put me into the position where invuln needed. On my condition warrior, as example I have rage skills traited each applying burns and each acting as further interrupts wherein I can chain several in a row. One misses, another hits and can be available again to me 15 seconds later.

When I am on my thief it THOSE types of warriors that give me the most issues as they are much better at keeping the pressure on. They just have more stuff Io have to dodge. Good theives do not waste opening burst on someone with shield block up or in his 4 seconds of EP running.

Contray to the claims of some, thieves do not have infinite dodges and the more I can force him into using within a short period of time, the better position I am in. If he always using evades and dodges to avoid stuff incoming , i got more then my 4 seconds every 60 of taking no damage.

Back to the shield bash itself as it pertains to vault and DB. In essence in works better against the “bad thieves” that spam vault and DB then those that mix it up

Your openly admitting the thief has the ability to reset the fight at any point.

Without endure pain preventing power damage, you give up a tool to reset a fight. Against good players, especially in a WvW setting, not running endure pain is gimping yourself against so many good roamers and the ever increasing numbers of people you’ll actually be fighting.

You mention you “can get them there again”. As a thief, a class that gets two/three shotted, giving the guy with tons of armor and regen more opportunities to slap you around is good for them.

You miss your cc, it takes a single dodge, and then a follow up attack from the thief(typically a huge amount of damage in a small amount of time). Your not prolonging anything, you’re providing more follow up from a class that has insane gap close and reactive play potential. They’re not spending significant time/resources dodging you, they’re spending half a second and then comfortably applying damage with insane vigor/endurance going off.

I’ve played a good amount of thief, and you have more than enough dodges to kitten on warrior CC, no matter how much is slotted. I’m ok with mixing up slots, but EP is simply stronger across so many scenarios when played intelligently.

I played EP on my warriors for the first few years and have not regretted dropping it. My ability to make a kill went UP and the amount of added survival it gives not all that noticeable. If he going to burst me at 56 seconds, he can burst me at 60 seconds instead.

It very much the reason many warriors will drop armor and vitality to get more power or precision. If you can conistently put out more damage you can often win a fight before you have to go defensive.

Something like Signet of Might , as example will consistently put out more damage. On a Condition build rage skills will consistently put out more damage. Those other utilities allow for more “slap them around” opportunities because they directly "slap them around’.

Again I spend most of my time on thief and i know which warriors I have most trouble with. it is not the ones that throw up EP . You mentioned having troubles landing a shield bash on a thief. In so doing you have acknowledged the importance of getting that CC on. In the case of my condition warrior just as example, I have more ways of getting that CC on then just one shield bash. The thief will not and can not avoid them all .

I would point out, just as example , that shattering blow has the same cast time as the old shield bash. If you could get the old shield bash to land on thief before nerf, how is it you can not get Shattering blow to land and against that “flimsy thief” is it not better to apply damage and conditions even as you give yourself boons when you use a utility rather then delay a burst by another 4 seconds?

(trust me on this , as a thief I hate the knockback skills of Ranger LB just as I do those that a warrior might have)

sneakytails.5629:

I modified my main to include a healthy amount of quickness, I ended up dropping the skill bar Endure Pain ( I still have it traited) and I replaced it with Beserk. One of my weapons also has Sigil of Rage and I have Heightened Focus traited as well.

I dropped my Beloved Axe/Axe, I cannot stomach the 50% speed bug any longer, last night I was really getting frustrated and loosing way too many fights, without the speed boost I cannot chase anyone down, or do any serious body hugging.

So I picked up sword and shield to supplement my rifle. I now have much better mobility and two immobilizes. I am sitting around 30% boon duration and the quickness uptime is making Shield Bash feel pretty good along with the rifle.

I am pretty happy with how the Sword is performing with Quickness and my medium amount of Boon Duration. I am finding Final Thrust under quickness to be so much more reliable for my burst than Eviscerate (which could not be effected by quickness) can be in certain match-ups, especially Thieves. Now that I dropped my Axes and Axe Mastery I was able to trait Berserkers Power for even more damage.

Of course the Shield made this all possible by being able to drop Endure Pain off the skill bar and slot Frenzy for the quickness boost.

Its a incredibly strong pivot point, dual wielding anything feels incredibly weak by comparison.

sneakytails.5629:

sneakytails.5629:

I modified my main to include a healthy amount of quickness, I ended up dropping the skill bar Endure Pain ( I still have it traited) and I replaced it with Beserk. One of my weapons also has Sigil of Rage and I have Heightened Focus traited as well.

I dropped my Beloved Axe/Axe, I cannot stomach the 50% speed bug any longer, last night I was really getting frustrated and loosing way too many fights, without the speed boost I cannot chase anyone down, or do any serious body hugging.

So I picked up sword and shield to supplement my rifle. I now have much better mobility and two immobilizes. I am sitting around 30% boon duration and the quickness uptime is making Shield Bash feel pretty good along with the rifle.

I am pretty happy with how the Sword is performing with Quickness and my medium amount of Boon Duration. I am finding Final Thrust under quickness to be so much more reliable for my burst than Eviscerate (which could not be effected by quickness) can be in certain match-ups, especially Thieves. Now that I dropped my Axes and Axe Mastery I was able to trait Berserkers Power for even more damage.

Of course the Shield made this all possible by being able to drop Endure Pain off the skill bar and slot Frenzy for the quickness boost.

Its a incredibly strong pivot point, dual wielding anything feels incredibly weak by comparison.

I have been using Sword/shield as my main set for sometime now very much for the reasons listed. In essence you get the equivalent of two BURST type attacks in one set given FT hits so hard. Added to that the burst off the sword set in Berserk mode is at range and can hit many a thief as they disengage.

Boon duration is very important here. I started around where you are now and have boosted that upwards continously. The thief only exposes hmself to attacks for short periods of time and you have to get as many hits in as possible duing that time.

Savage leap is great for closing as well and this one of the reasons I went away from Discipline and into Arms for Blademaster. I too traited up all that quickness but found what I get on this bursts in zerker mode tends to work well enough for my own style. I am not sayng that more quickness via heightened focus not a good way to go but that for what I wanted to do with my own build arms traitline was more suitable.

As to Frenzy it a very good choice. They removed the “take more damage” while in Frenzy mode sometime back and you can use this to do a lot of work for you in the damage department.

babazhook.6805:

lighter.2708:

babazhook.6805:

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

Kiroshima.8497:

Those tells made sense back before HoT because everyone had 2 dodges and maybe 1 stun break to burn through before you mashed someone’s head in.

Thankfully, you had 3 stuns, Shield Bash, Bull’s Charge, and Skullcrack. 1 dodge usually gets burned on weapon skills, so a warrior would eventually reach a situation where damage could be landed through one of these setup skills.

But now with HoT, stun breaks are everywhere with low cd’s. Why? Because they added more CC everywhere. The thing is, Warrior can’t actually slot more stuns without giving up their stances (usually you only get 1 free utility since Endure Pain and Zerker Stance are typically mandatory). So defenses increase, but offense (for warrior) didn’t.

Thus making it difficult to land setup skills. If Warrior had more natural defenses in their weapon skills/traits, then you could run all the cc’s you’d ever want and actually land them (burn through limited defenses with raw output), except against Daredevil of course which is up to him to screw up his dodges.

Also ignore Throw Bolas. It’s worse than Kick. Kick has the benefit of 12 second cd (9 if traited lol), so you can use it to bait stun breaks (even outrage), but because it’s a knockback it’s hard to follow up with damage. But throw bolas? Wonky projectile, and a 4 second immobolize that can get purged super easily (if you’re power)? You’re better off with just taking longbow, at least you get guaranteed CI procs.

Buffing Bolas to be either AoE, Pulses Immob like ranger root, or gives a pull would make it easier to land setup skills even without shield bash.

.

Endure pain is not mandatory. I find zerker stance more a requirement, There other ways to avoid direct damge then relying on 4 seconds of invuln every 60. I dropped it a long time ago and feel I am better off for it . Indeed I see endure as more a liability given you can do something better with that utility slot.

So youve never been jumped by a thief while already fighting ? I think Berserk stance / outrage / endure pain are a must.

I have dodges and blocks and CC all of which can counter the thief along with much more health then he has and better armor so no , I do not find myself being jumped by a thief whereby a 4 second invuln on a 60 second cooldown is all I have that can save me.

Endure pain is not a must, proof being I do not take it and do fine.

lol you have no way to dodge, block or CC a thief who decide to gank you with steal while you are already in combat

LOL if I am ganked while in combat and have EP I still have to REACT meaning he has already hit me . LOL if the EP already on cooldown because of combat it is not doing me any good just as would be the case if I already used up my shield blocks and dodges. LOL shield is on a 20 second cooldown compared to 60 meaning I can use it three times for every one time that I get EP . LOL the one time in 50 where I am ganked in Combat where that EP just MIGHT be off cooldown and available to use wherein it might save me from being downed is not worth it compared to other things I can be using with that slot LOL. LOL in game terms I am 3 times more likely to have a shield block available then th EP block and that is plenty enough for me. LOL

Ok hero,how would you react to this backstab ? Your ninja reflexes wont be fast enough,trust me.Here iwas on thief offc,did not see the guy coming..I think you can understand i was dead in one hit.Now if id been on warri i had the chance to pop ep which might have been able for me to outlive it,no way to counter cc,no way to dodge what u wont see coming either.

not been that hard in like ages but my thief has 2500 for this reason.

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

lighter.2708:

babazhook.6805:

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

Kiroshima.8497:

Those tells made sense back before HoT because everyone had 2 dodges and maybe 1 stun break to burn through before you mashed someone’s head in.

Thankfully, you had 3 stuns, Shield Bash, Bull’s Charge, and Skullcrack. 1 dodge usually gets burned on weapon skills, so a warrior would eventually reach a situation where damage could be landed through one of these setup skills.

But now with HoT, stun breaks are everywhere with low cd’s. Why? Because they added more CC everywhere. The thing is, Warrior can’t actually slot more stuns without giving up their stances (usually you only get 1 free utility since Endure Pain and Zerker Stance are typically mandatory). So defenses increase, but offense (for warrior) didn’t.

Thus making it difficult to land setup skills. If Warrior had more natural defenses in their weapon skills/traits, then you could run all the cc’s you’d ever want and actually land them (burn through limited defenses with raw output), except against Daredevil of course which is up to him to screw up his dodges.

Also ignore Throw Bolas. It’s worse than Kick. Kick has the benefit of 12 second cd (9 if traited lol), so you can use it to bait stun breaks (even outrage), but because it’s a knockback it’s hard to follow up with damage. But throw bolas? Wonky projectile, and a 4 second immobolize that can get purged super easily (if you’re power)? You’re better off with just taking longbow, at least you get guaranteed CI procs.

Buffing Bolas to be either AoE, Pulses Immob like ranger root, or gives a pull would make it easier to land setup skills even without shield bash.

.

Endure pain is not mandatory. I find zerker stance more a requirement, There other ways to avoid direct damge then relying on 4 seconds of invuln every 60. I dropped it a long time ago and feel I am better off for it . Indeed I see endure as more a liability given you can do something better with that utility slot.

So youve never been jumped by a thief while already fighting ? I think Berserk stance / outrage / endure pain are a must.

I have dodges and blocks and CC all of which can counter the thief along with much more health then he has and better armor so no , I do not find myself being jumped by a thief whereby a 4 second invuln on a 60 second cooldown is all I have that can save me.

Endure pain is not a must, proof being I do not take it and do fine.

lol you have no way to dodge, block or CC a thief who decide to gank you with steal while you are already in combat

LOL if I am ganked while in combat and have EP I still have to REACT meaning he has already hit me . LOL if the EP already on cooldown because of combat it is not doing me any good just as would be the case if I already used up my shield blocks and dodges. LOL shield is on a 20 second cooldown compared to 60 meaning I can use it three times for every one time that I get EP . LOL the one time in 50 where I am ganked in Combat where that EP just MIGHT be off cooldown and available to use wherein it might save me from being downed is not worth it compared to other things I can be using with that slot LOL. LOL in game terms I am 3 times more likely to have a shield block available then th EP block and that is plenty enough for me. LOL

Ok hero,how would you react to this backstab ? Your ninja reflexes wont be fast enough,trust me.Here iwas on thief offc,did not see the guy coming..I think you can understand i was dead in one hit.Now if id been on warri i had the chance to pop ep which might have been able for me to outlive it,no way to counter cc,no way to dodge what u wont see coming either.

A thief is not restricted to one burst attack every 60 seconds. if EP running on a warrior it relatively easy to wait until it runs down. Only a stupid warrior would throw up EP “just in case a thief” in the area and only a stupid thief would use a backstab burst against a person with EP running. In other words in the scenario outlined all your EP would have done was stave off the followup damage from double strike and the AA chain. I can do this with dodge or a shield or rely on defy pain out of traits wherein I am not using a utility slot.

When I am on thief waiting to set up a burst It rather easy to tell when EP running. If he throws it up during, you just pull back stealth again and repeat. You can stay in stealth for as long as that EP running.

Finally, I am hardly an elite player, but I have spent thousands of hours on all manner of thief builds. I know the mechanics as to how they work and on my warrior I used to trait endure pain. I know endure pain is not as big a deal to a thief as is being suggested and I know when I dropped it on my warrior there no noticeable difference in ability to survive. A GOOD thief could kill me when I used it and a good thief can kill me when I do not use it.

Its not just incase a thief,like i said earlier i can name Dozens of other situations, where this one just happend 2 days ago which i thought i’d share,since it can happen when youre already fighting aswell where ep can change the outcome of that situation.But keep holding on to “I will dodge and i will counter cc”,sure it will do good vs players above pve level.

Caedmon.6798:

Its not just incase a thief,like i said earlier i can name Dozens of other situations, where this one just happend 2 days ago which i thought i’d share,since it can happen when youre already fighting aswell where ep can change the outcome of that situation.But keep holding on to “I will dodge and i will counter cc”,sure it will do good vs players above pve level.

Whatever . It always come down to this cop out response. The players YOU meet are always good and the ones those that do not agree with you meet are always bad. I have had many thousands of encounters in game and no, it defies logic that each I face a scrub from PVE while YOu run into the experts. Keep telling yourself that.

There are other utilities that can “change the outcome of the situation” available to a warrior and I have found those others can do this more then Endure Pain.

As example as a previous poster suggested. Throw on frenzy for 10 plus seconds of quickness. In that time the thief (or plug in class here) unloading his burst you respond with Frenzy and load your own on. Your damage output spikes and can down him quickly.

As example Signet of might against a DH. He throws up his chain of blocks when in trouble, use the might active to make your attacks unblockable. You hav changed the outcome of the fight.

I do not need endure pain to “change the outcome of a situation”.

babazhook.6805:

Caedmon.6798:

Its not just incase a thief,like i said earlier i can name Dozens of other situations, where this one just happend 2 days ago which i thought i’d share,since it can happen when youre already fighting aswell where ep can change the outcome of that situation.But keep holding on to “I will dodge and i will counter cc”,sure it will do good vs players above pve level.

Whatever . It always come down to this cop out response. The players YOU meet are always good and the ones those that do not agree with you meet are always bad. I have had many thousands of encounters in game and no, it defies logic that each I face a scrub from PVE while YOu run into the experts. Keep telling yourself that.

There are other utilities that can “change the outcome of the situation” available to a warrior and I have found those others can do this more then Endure Pain.

As example as a previous poster suggested. Throw on frenzy for 10 plus seconds of quickness. In that time the thief (or plug in class here) unloading his burst you respond with Frenzy and load your own on. Your damage output spikes and can down him quickly.

As example Signet of might against a DH. He throws up his chain of blocks when in trouble, use the might active to make your attacks unblockable. You hav changed the outcome of the fight.

I do not need endure pain to “change the outcome of a situation”.

All of that because i said endure pain is a must ( in this Teambased,ganking,blobfest game ) and youre too kitten stubborn to realize that ? Offc you dont need ep to change the outcome of a situation,youre a kittening untouchable god with ninja reflexes, i think thats pretty obvious now.

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

Caedmon.6798:

Its not just incase a thief,like i said earlier i can name Dozens of other situations, where this one just happend 2 days ago which i thought i’d share,since it can happen when youre already fighting aswell where ep can change the outcome of that situation.But keep holding on to “I will dodge and i will counter cc”,sure it will do good vs players above pve level.

Whatever . It always come down to this cop out response. The players YOU meet are always good and the ones those that do not agree with you meet are always bad. I have had many thousands of encounters in game and no, it defies logic that each I face a scrub from PVE while YOu run into the experts. Keep telling yourself that.

There are other utilities that can “change the outcome of the situation” available to a warrior and I have found those others can do this more then Endure Pain.

As example as a previous poster suggested. Throw on frenzy for 10 plus seconds of quickness. In that time the thief (or plug in class here) unloading his burst you respond with Frenzy and load your own on. Your damage output spikes and can down him quickly.

As example Signet of might against a DH. He throws up his chain of blocks when in trouble, use the might active to make your attacks unblockable. You hav changed the outcome of the fight.

I do not need endure pain to “change the outcome of a situation”.

All of that because i said endure pain is a must ( in this Teambased,ganking,blobfest game ) and youre too kitten stubborn to realize that ? Offc you dont need ep to change the outcome of a situation,youre a kittening untouchable god with ninja reflexes, i think thats pretty obvious now.

What ARE you on about?

1> I am an older person, as I have mentioned before. I hardly have “godlike” reflexes. Trust me on this reflexes are one of the first things to go.

2>I main a thief which means I really on the reflexes I do have to a great degree in order to survive. They hardly need to be godlike. This topic started regarding the changes to the Shield bash activation time. Prior to these changes I could evade a number of those bashes at .5 seconds. It now easier to do at .75 , again hardly Godlike. The OP would not have made the post if we were talking about “godlike” reflexes.

3>In reaction to an attack , it takes a person JUST as long to strike the key or button bound to his shield block or dodge as it does to strike the key or button that is bound to his Endure pain.

4>If you are initiating EP before that attack then it may , or may not have prevented damage. If you hit that key before an incoming attack, then it is about buying time. Poorer players might continue to attack just as some do with ranged weapons when a reflect thrown up. Better players will not waste resources attacking.

Claiming it prevented XXX damage is like me claiming by putting the roof up on my convertible I have prevented it from getting wet from the rain when it never rained.

What are you trying to explain for kittensake ? You talk gibberish just so you can post a response. Claiming endure pain preventing damage is a lie because youre unable to realize every fight is different and its all Situational ? Stop being so kitten stubborn and looking for ways to explain how you dont need it in Your opinion,which is still wrong.Now youre saying you dont have good reflexes thus making your previous posts about counter cc and dodging completely invalid.Just stop it,honestly its getting sad.Youre wrong and you will never admit it cus youre too kitten stubborn,end of story.

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

Caedmon.6798:

Its not just incase a thief,like i said earlier i can name Dozens of other situations, where this one just happend 2 days ago which i thought i’d share,since it can happen when youre already fighting aswell where ep can change the outcome of that situation.But keep holding on to “I will dodge and i will counter cc”,sure it will do good vs players above pve level.

Whatever . It always come down to this cop out response. The players YOU meet are always good and the ones those that do not agree with you meet are always bad. I have had many thousands of encounters in game and no, it defies logic that each I face a scrub from PVE while YOu run into the experts. Keep telling yourself that.

There are other utilities that can “change the outcome of the situation” available to a warrior and I have found those others can do this more then Endure Pain.

As example as a previous poster suggested. Throw on frenzy for 10 plus seconds of quickness. In that time the thief (or plug in class here) unloading his burst you respond with Frenzy and load your own on. Your damage output spikes and can down him quickly.

As example Signet of might against a DH. He throws up his chain of blocks when in trouble, use the might active to make your attacks unblockable. You hav changed the outcome of the fight.

I do not need endure pain to “change the outcome of a situation”.

All of that because i said endure pain is a must ( in this Teambased,ganking,blobfest game ) and youre too kitten stubborn to realize that ? Offc you dont need ep to change the outcome of a situation,youre a kittening untouchable god with ninja reflexes, i think thats pretty obvious now.

What ARE you on about?

1> I am an older person, as I have mentioned before. I hardly have “godlike” reflexes. Trust me on this reflexes are one of the first things to go.

2>I main a thief which means I really on the reflexes I do have to a great degree in order to survive. They hardly need to be godlike. This topic started regarding the changes to the Shield bash activation time. Prior to these changes I could evade a number of those bashes at .5 seconds. It now easier to do at .75 , again hardly Godlike. The OP would not have made the post if we were talking about “godlike” reflexes.

3>In reaction to an attack , it takes a person JUST as long to strike the key or button bound to his shield block or dodge as it does to strike the key or button that is bound to his Endure pain.

4>If you are initiating EP before that attack then it may , or may not have prevented damage. If you hit that key before an incoming attack, then it is about buying time. Poorer players might continue to attack just as some do with ranged weapons when a reflect thrown up. Better players will not waste resources attacking.

Claiming it prevented XXX damage is like me claiming by putting the roof up on my convertible I have prevented it from getting wet from the rain when it never rained.

Im playing since 2012,what are you trying to explain ? Stop being so kitten stubborn and looking for ways to explain how you dont need it in Your opinion,which is still wrong.

Good lords, you are the one being stubborn. I have suggested that a given utility NOT mandatory and given options and reasons as to why and it is YOU that are saying that it must be your way. I have not stated EP a useless skill or might not be desired in specific builds. Your position is the definition of stubborn. Look the word up and stop projecting your shortcomings on others.

You can not do without it. I get it. That you can not seem to survive without the skill does not mean that others can not and is not my problem.

as to reflexes learn to read. I sid my reflexes are not God like which translates to YOU DO NOT NEED Godlike reflexes to avoid damage. It makes nothing I said “invalid”. It does the exact opposite as a matter of fact.

babazhook.6805:

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

Caedmon.6798:

Its not just incase a thief,like i said earlier i can name Dozens of other situations, where this one just happend 2 days ago which i thought i’d share,since it can happen when youre already fighting aswell where ep can change the outcome of that situation.But keep holding on to “I will dodge and i will counter cc”,sure it will do good vs players above pve level.

Whatever . It always come down to this cop out response. The players YOU meet are always good and the ones those that do not agree with you meet are always bad. I have had many thousands of encounters in game and no, it defies logic that each I face a scrub from PVE while YOu run into the experts. Keep telling yourself that.

There are other utilities that can “change the outcome of the situation” available to a warrior and I have found those others can do this more then Endure Pain.

As example as a previous poster suggested. Throw on frenzy for 10 plus seconds of quickness. In that time the thief (or plug in class here) unloading his burst you respond with Frenzy and load your own on. Your damage output spikes and can down him quickly.

As example Signet of might against a DH. He throws up his chain of blocks when in trouble, use the might active to make your attacks unblockable. You hav changed the outcome of the fight.

I do not need endure pain to “change the outcome of a situation”.

All of that because i said endure pain is a must ( in this Teambased,ganking,blobfest game ) and youre too kitten stubborn to realize that ? Offc you dont need ep to change the outcome of a situation,youre a kittening untouchable god with ninja reflexes, i think thats pretty obvious now.

What ARE you on about?

1> I am an older person, as I have mentioned before. I hardly have “godlike” reflexes. Trust me on this reflexes are one of the first things to go.

2>I main a thief which means I really on the reflexes I do have to a great degree in order to survive. They hardly need to be godlike. This topic started regarding the changes to the Shield bash activation time. Prior to these changes I could evade a number of those bashes at .5 seconds. It now easier to do at .75 , again hardly Godlike. The OP would not have made the post if we were talking about “godlike” reflexes.

3>In reaction to an attack , it takes a person JUST as long to strike the key or button bound to his shield block or dodge as it does to strike the key or button that is bound to his Endure pain.

4>If you are initiating EP before that attack then it may , or may not have prevented damage. If you hit that key before an incoming attack, then it is about buying time. Poorer players might continue to attack just as some do with ranged weapons when a reflect thrown up. Better players will not waste resources attacking.

Claiming it prevented XXX damage is like me claiming by putting the roof up on my convertible I have prevented it from getting wet from the rain when it never rained.

Im playing since 2012,what are you trying to explain ? Stop being so kitten stubborn and looking for ways to explain how you dont need it in Your opinion,which is still wrong.

Good lords, you are the one being stubborn. I have suggested that a given utility NOT mandatory and given options and reasons as to why and it is YOU that are saying that it must be your way. I have not stated EP a useless skill or might not be desired in specific builds. Your position is the definition of stubborn. Look the word up and stop projecting your shortcomings on others.

You can not do without it. I get it. that not my problem.

You have viable and you have optimal.Running with endure pain is optimal.Get it kid ?

Now im the one thats stubborn ? For kittensake let me show you in a duel how you need endure pain alright ?

Someone else already explained in depth how endure pain is a must have.if you think otherwise,so kittening be it.But im telling you,youre wrong and youre too kittening stubborn to realize that fact.

Bla..bla..Ill start responding again when you can make sense,but i doubt it will happen.Otherwise hit me up ingame and we will duel later on.

Babazhook is entitled to his opinion; if you have fun running without endure pain, good for you.

I personally take outnumbered fights super often so there’s 0 choice for me, it’s just too good. And honestly, When running full zerk/marauder power build, I really can’t think of a reason not to in normal fights, especially running eternal champion for all them juicy stabs. WvW on high tier servers are filled with big groups, tons of midfight +1’s over and over, and 25 blood lust stack thieves roaming in groups of two who actually know how to play their class.

Endure Pain for me is almost a means of saying I respect the intelligence of who I might go against. Or I respect the combined pressure of 3 people vs me where I can tank infinite power pressure for 4 seconds and kill someone who over commits and win a fight I never would without it.

Power Builds tend to indicate a person knows how to play their class because in the current meta, it’s quite a bit harder to make them work. Endure Pain for me is beating that scholar rune mesmer who knows his stuff, the patient thief who wants to reopen after proccing my traited EP from stealth, that occasional power Rev I wildly underestimate etc.

That’s all i’m gonna say on EP; because what everyone CAN agree on is that the balance team made a large misstep on shield bash and it should be changed back.

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

Caedmon.6798:

babazhook.6805:

Caedmon.6798:

Its not just incase a thief,like i said earlier i can name Dozens of other situations, where this one just happend 2 days ago which i thought i’d share,since it can happen when youre already fighting aswell where ep can change the outcome of that situation.But keep holding on to “I will dodge and i will counter cc”,sure it will do good vs players above pve level.

Whatever . It always come down to this cop out response. The players YOU meet are always good and the ones those that do not agree with you meet are always bad. I have had many thousands of encounters in game and no, it defies logic that each I face a scrub from PVE while YOu run into the experts. Keep telling yourself that.

There are other utilities that can “change the outcome of the situation” available to a warrior and I have found those others can do this more then Endure Pain.

As example as a previous poster suggested. Throw on frenzy for 10 plus seconds of quickness. In that time the thief (or plug in class here) unloading his burst you respond with Frenzy and load your own on. Your damage output spikes and can down him quickly.

As example Signet of might against a DH. He throws up his chain of blocks when in trouble, use the might active to make your attacks unblockable. You hav changed the outcome of the fight.

I do not need endure pain to “change the outcome of a situation”.

All of that because i said endure pain is a must ( in this Teambased,ganking,blobfest game ) and youre too kitten stubborn to realize that ? Offc you dont need ep to change the outcome of a situation,youre a kittening untouchable god with ninja reflexes, i think thats pretty obvious now.

What ARE you on about?

1> I am an older person, as I have mentioned before. I hardly have “godlike” reflexes. Trust me on this reflexes are one of the first things to go.

2>I main a thief which means I really on the reflexes I do have to a great degree in order to survive. They hardly need to be godlike. This topic started regarding the changes to the Shield bash activation time. Prior to these changes I could evade a number of those bashes at .5 seconds. It now easier to do at .75 , again hardly Godlike. The OP would not have made the post if we were talking about “godlike” reflexes.

3>In reaction to an attack , it takes a person JUST as long to strike the key or button bound to his shield block or dodge as it does to strike the key or button that is bound to his Endure pain.

4>If you are initiating EP before that attack then it may , or may not have prevented damage. If you hit that key before an incoming attack, then it is about buying time. Poorer players might continue to attack just as some do with ranged weapons when a reflect thrown up. Better players will not waste resources attacking.

Claiming it prevented XXX damage is like me claiming by putting the roof up on my convertible I have prevented it from getting wet from the rain when it never rained.

Im playing since 2012,what are you trying to explain ? Stop being so kitten stubborn and looking for ways to explain how you dont need it in Your opinion,which is still wrong.

Good lords, you are the one being stubborn. I have suggested that a given utility NOT mandatory and given options and reasons as to why and it is YOU that are saying that it must be your way. I have not stated EP a useless skill or might not be desired in specific builds. Your position is the definition of stubborn. Look the word up and stop projecting your shortcomings on others.

You can not do without it. I get it. that not my problem.

You have viable and you have optimal.Running with endure pain is optimal.Get it kid ?

Now im the one thats stubborn ? For kittensake let me show you in a duel how you need endure pain alright ?

Someone else already explained in depth how endure pain is a must have.if you think otherwise,so kittening be it.But im telling you,youre wrong and youre too kittening stubborn to realize that fact.

Bla..bla..Ill start responding again when you can make sense,but i doubt it will happen.Otherwise hit me up ingame and we will duel later on.

Now it gets down to “put up your dukes , I am right” ?

First as you well know WvW is not about duels. I can retrait to maximize my chances at winning a duel based upon how the enemy traited and that same build will be a handicap in WvW at large. I do not duel. It demonstrates little as far as how well a build works in WvW. I play on HOD and am on most nights defending my own borderland more often then not. If you want , you are free to roam the Bordelands as you will be bound to run into me under real WvW scenarios and not “duels”

Secondly, I am not seeking your approval nor do I need your approval in order to arrive at an opinion. I have thousands of hours of gameplay in WvW and know what works for me and what does not. I understand that you can not function without EP, that does not mean I can not.

One more time as this seems to have eluded you. For the first year plus, I used EP. I then wanted to change up my build and in order to make the build work as I wanted to I had to drop either EP or Zerker stance. Given my build based on boon durations the choice was easy as EP offers no boons. EP offers nothing other than that 4 seconds of taking no damage. It does not increase your damage or quikness or crit rate . I dropped EP and adapted my gameplay style and do not notice a marked difference in my ability to be both viable AND optimal. This is all the evidence I need that I do not think it mandatory. I do not have to run it by you are anyone else first.

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