Guild Wars 2

As you may already know all of our heals have seen a pretty legitimate boost, especially the previously underpowered Healing Signet which has likely made its way into many builds.

It provides approximately 400 hp/s which is pretty amazing as a standalone heal. However, this synergizes really well with our other sources of healing, namely shout heals. Every 20 seconds, you will see an approximate 10,400 K healing value which does not include Dogged March and Adrenal Health and a 3rd additional shout heal. Combine this with other sources of damage mitigation such as Endure Pain, Defy Pain, Shield Blocking, that is a lot of damage mitigation/sustainability.

I’ve already seen alot of shout builds used in PvE, it is actually fairly strong as a 1v1 build in PvP because it can now match the sustainability of other classes like Rangers, Guardians, Eles, etc, in tPvP play and of course shout builds have already been used extensively in WvW.

Going a shout build doesn’t necessarily mean you are a bunker although you do less damage then a more glass cannon-ish build. It can still be pretty strong if you invest in the 20% damage under 50% health, destruction of the empowered, etc. Just a more sustainable warrior with decent damage.

Conditions, of course, still a problem (in general) but at least the sustainability and survivability is there a little bit more (though bursting can still eat through a Warrior’s HP).

Good thing about shout builds is that it is flexible and works with pretty much any weapon set. I could see hammer/LB being a more potent point holder but even for mobility-based builds, shouts are pretty nice to have and gives you more condition removal.

Thoughts?

killahmayne.9518:

Every 20 seconds, you will see an approximate 10,400 K healing value which does not include Dogged March and Adrenal Health and a 3rd additional shout heal.
…
Thoughts?

10.4k Healing per Shouts?

Can you please share your build? I’ve used a shout build before, mixed with Superior Rune of the Soldier, so I could remove conditions for each shout used. Now I changed to a Banner Build but I still miss my Shout build and I’m looking after to improve it.

Imho, I’d say because of the scaling on healing signet, all other but bunker builds got much stronger.

killahmayne.9518:

Going a shout build doesn’t necessarily mean you are a bunker although you do less damage then a more glass cannon-ish build. It can still be pretty strong if you invest in the 20% damage under 50% health, destruction of the empowered, etc. Just a more sustainable warrior with decent damage.

Conditions, of course, still a problem (in general) but at least the sustainability and survivability is there a little bit more (though bursting can still eat through a Warrior’s HP).

In terms of DPS shout builds can fit any style of play. My warrior for example has 3k attack, 28k hp and 3.2k armor but with the shout build I’ve been using for him (no pts in strength mind you) he can push upwards of 3.5k+ attack and have over 40% crit chance. So shouts only improve offensive warrior gameplay as a whole. As for conditions with soldier runes shout builds laugh at condition builds. Assuming you don’t use all your shouts at once, you can consistently rotate your shout cooldowns, which if you have shake it off on your bar means you can take out 4 conditions at a time every 20 seconds, and that’s not counting dogged march or cleansing ire. Also this particular build isn’t new, it’s been around even before I started playing (October 2012.)

I actually have been running a shout-heal, Hammer/Longbow build for quite some time. With Cleric’s setup, running For Great Justice and Shake it Off with reduced cooldowns, I get about 4000 extra healing every 20 seconds (roughly 2k per shout). I also run soldier runes, as any shout user would, so I remove 3 conditions with that as well, plus having another stun breaker in addition to my Balanced Stance. I have been running with Mending, and I think with the cooldown reduction I may continue to do so in order to counter condition heavy opponents. Thanks to the immobilize and blind on longbow, plus the F1 to strip conditions off myself, combined with hammer AoE cripple and AoE stun, I’ve been bunkering with relative success despite the lack of mobility. Vigor on stance helps as well.

Matter of fact here’s a video I made last week. I only use shouts since they work for how I want to play, and I’ve yet to find a build yet that is a hard counter to it. Skip to 10:12 to see the 1v1 I was able to record of a p/d thief. Loads of conditions poofed immediately and my dps was nothing to laugh at either.

Setun.4368:

Matter of fact here’s a video I made last week. I only use shouts since they work for how I want to play, and I’ve yet to find a build yet that is a hard counter to it. Skip to 10:12 to see the 1v1 I was able to record of a p/d thief. Loads of conditions poofed immediately and my dps was nothing to laugh at either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm2mHt0y3EI

Nice compilation and skills! Share your builds please!

Banner healing still better.

Dimittri.3245:

Nice compilation and skills! Share your builds please!

Thank you! I have my build on my 1st warrior wvw video, but here it is:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIMQNApeRncOk8YzDSBxEZAB9QDxir4UQJSPKD0INA-jEzAoLQ8FEuDgABQigIEgZvioxWZLiGruGT7mINcQVxwyAUNGA-w

I also use main hand axe from time to time (it has zerker stats with the quickness proc sigil) as well.

I don’t know how you got 10k healing power, but do tell!

Daecollo.9578:

I don’t know how you got 10k healing power, but do tell!

Think he meant 10k healing over 20 seconds via shout heals / signet regen, not healing power broseph.

I’ve never liked shout builds because you lose the utility your… Utility slots provide for fgj, sio, and either omm or fear me. If you chose omm that’s terrible utility(not saying 10 vuln is bad, just not utilitarian), but if you used fear me then your shout healing takes quite a huge dip. Additionally to make the most of a shot build you also need to use soldier runes, taking away yet another customization option. Just a thing you need to consider before going for a shout build!

Jzaku.9765:

I’ve never liked shout builds because you lose the utility your… Utility slots provide for fgj, sio, and either omm or fear me. If you chose omm that’s terrible utility(not saying 10 vuln is bad, just not utilitarian), but if you used fear me then your shout healing takes quite a huge dip. Additionally to make the most of a shot build you also need to use soldier runes, taking away yet another customization option. Just a thing you need to consider before going for a shout build!

All the shouts have great utility both solo and in group situations. OOM is great for the added vulnerability, but also because it can’t be blocked in anyway. Also it’s on a 20 sec cooldown (as opposed to Fear Me’s 40 sec) so the healing received from shouts adds up over time faster with it. Also you don’t have to go soldier’s runes, but if you want to maximize condition removal, then it is the smart way to go.

Not saying shouts are the end all / be all build, but it is a reliable build that can get results.

Setun.4368:

All the shouts have great utility both solo and in group situations. OOM is great for the added vulnerability, but also because it can’t be blocked in anyway. Also it’s on a 20 sec cooldown (as opposed to Fear Me’s 40 sec) so the healing received from shouts adds up over time faster with it. Also you don’t have to go soldier’s runes, but if you want to maximize condition removal, then it is the smart way to go.

Not saying shouts are the end all / be all build, but it is a reliable build that can get results.

Op was talking about PvP though! It really is quite painful to give up things like stability, endure pain, berserker’s stance etc to run a shout build in PvP. I didn’t say that shout build is bad though, however I’m quite curious as to it suddenly becoming regarded as “better than it was” because there were no changes to it(?)

Why do you have to give up stability? Run FGJ, Shake it Off, and Balanced Stance. Traited for Vigor, it’s about as useful as an actual heal, gives you stability AND swiftness in addition to it, acts as a stunbreaker, and is on a 40 second cooldown, which isn’t bad. Plus, with the investment into shout-heals, you actually get more out of it thanks to that +30% boon uptime.

This gives you a means of getting reasonable damage bonuses (FGJ), condition removal, backup heals, and stability for point control or stomping, in addition to an extra 4-5k healing when you need it, which is also spread to nearby party members (which, imo, is the biggest benefit). Banner regen is nice, but is TOTALLY negated by poison, which is pretty common, and doesn’t help you when burst is as popular as it is. If you’ve got protection (ala guardian) and better vigor uptime, regen can be sweet, but without those key factors warrior is likely better off with the shout heals.

Do I recommend taking shout healing over endure pain if you’re specc’d for melee DPS, though? Absolutely not. If you’re going for straight burst, stances are where it’s at. Higher vigor uptime, equivalent adrenaline gain, invulnerability windows (usually via Endure Pain and Shield Stance), and short-term condi super-reduction are more of what a burst class needs than super-low healing and minor damage bonuses that really just aren’t needed compared to the modicum of staying power they get.

Jzaku.9765:

I’m quite curious as to it suddenly becoming regarded as “better than it was” because there were no changes to it(?)

This is a really good point. I’m not on one side or the other when it comes to shout builds, but there weren’t any changes to them; unless you count the increase to base healing and improved scaling on Healing Signet and Healing Surge. I guess being able to say up longer combined with better scaling on those two heals provides more incentive to run healing shouts because you get more opportunities to use them, and cleric gear has better synergy with the build through the actual heal. Seems to me like warriors got stronger, and shouts just came along for the ride, but the same can be said for any other tool we have. I think it’s a good support option, but I’m a selfish player.

I also agree that shout builds lack the individual utility of many of our other skills. FGJ is one-dimensional. SiO isn’t as bad if you aren’t using it in a stun breaking role because it allows you to free up the shout to act as a heal/condi removal, but in a stun breaking role, I don’t think you want to be spamming the thing, so it loses utility. OMM is another one-dimensional shout. The heals are nice, but when compared to our other options for healing, there are definitely more efficient choices for individual survivability. As far as group survivability, they are obviously very strong.

Why shouts? Just slap a banner in there with 2 banner traits and you are good to go with equal sustain while still having your utility stuff open for signet of stamina and balanced stance or something. In large scale zerg fights, just pop 3 banners and everyone gets loads of regen to boot, while you blast finish the crap outta combo fields.

healing banners > healing shouts.

DargorV.8571:

Banner healing still better.

I don’t see how.

With 0 HP, regen ticks for 130 HPS.

If you are traited with Shouts Heal, then you are most likely also taking the 20% CD reduction, and possibly running 3 shouts. With the 3 fastest shouts, that’s 20s, 20s, and 25s CDs. With 0 HP and averaging the cooldowns, that’s 1192 * 3 = 3576 healing every 21.66s = 165 HPS. Plus it stacks with regen if you are getting regen from other sources/teammates.

The scaling as HP increases stays about the same as well, and at 1500 HP, shouts still result in more HPS.

This however assumes you are going a full shout build. Without the traits, or less than 3 shouts, you’ll see lesser returns. But shouts have other advantages as well, since they are instant cast, and can remove condis with soldier runes. If anything, banners and shouts are equivalent, but imo, shouts are superior.

Tried out a shout version of my CC build. The inability to take the traits I need for shouts and maintain -5sec on weapon swap kills it for me. Sticking with Melandru runes and Berserker Stance for now.

naphack.9346:

Why shouts? Just slap a banner in there with 2 banner traits and you are good to go with equal sustain while still having your utility stuff open for signet of stamina and balanced stance or something. In large scale zerg fights, just pop 3 banners and everyone gets loads of regen to boot, while you blast finish the crap outta combo fields.

healing banners > healing shouts.

If you are going into WvW, or doing PvE content, then yes, go banners. I actually agree with this point. You should be running at least one banner anyways, so why not make it provide regen in the process?

However, sPvP is an entirely different matter. Popular builds are heavy in either burst damage, or condition damage, both of which hard counter regen when it isn’t covered by protection (which doesn’t even help against the later): Burst, by negating the heal-over-time component provided by regen, and conditions by the application of poison, which totally negates regen. In order to counter these, you need burst healing, which is exactly what shout-heals provide. 4-5k healing may not sound like much, but when it saves a party member, or helps you live through that burst where regen would’ve failed you, you’ll be happy you brought it instead of a banner.

Bear on the job.6273:

DargorV.8571:

Banner healing still better.

I don’t see how.

With 0 HP, regen ticks for 130 HPS.

If you are traited with Shouts Heal, then you are most likely also taking the 20% CD reduction, and possibly running 3 shouts. With the 3 fastest shouts, that’s 20s, 20s, and 25s CDs. With 0 HP and averaging the cooldowns, that’s 1192 * 3 = 3576 healing every 21.66s = 165 HPS. Plus it stacks with regen if you are getting regen from other sources/teammates.

The scaling as HP increases stays about the same as well, and at 1500 HP, shouts still result in more HPS.

This however assumes you are going a full shout build. Without the traits, or less than 3 shouts, you’ll see lesser returns. But shouts have other advantages as well, since they are instant cast, and can remove condis with soldier runes. If anything, banners and shouts are equivalent, but imo, shouts are superior.

You devote 3 utility slots for your 165 hp/s, while a banner build devotes 1 utility for 150 hp/s and is free to slap in more banners or go for something else. ALso a lower cd on warbanner means more rezz.

killahmayne.9518:

It provides approximately 400 hp/s which is pretty amazing as a standalone heal. However, this synergizes really well with our other sources of healing, namely shout heals.

I don’t think you know what synergize means. Healing signet has 0 synergy with shout heals. None.

DargorV.8571:

Banner healing still better.

No, banner healing is distinctly worse because regen doesn’t stack intensity. I guess if you’re solo and you never get hit by a snare/root/chill.

In fact, banner traited for regen can actually hurt overall healing if you aren’t wearing healing power gear and there are people with healing power and regen. In a zerg this possibility increases a lot.

Healing signet scales terrible with healing power, tha only thing that scales a bit better is adrenal health, regen is another one that scales a bit better, but healing signet nope.

Fenrir.5493:

Healing signet scales terrible with healing power, tha only thing that scales a bit better is adrenal health, regen is another one that scales a bit better, but healing signet nope.

To find how a heal scales, you divide its coefficient by how often you receive healing from that source.
Stage 3 Healing Surge: 1.5/30 =.05
Healing Signet: .05
Adrenal Health: .15/3 =.05
They all scale the same.

Veritas.6071:

Fenrir.5493:

Healing signet scales terrible with healing power, tha only thing that scales a bit better is adrenal health, regen is another one that scales a bit better, but healing signet nope.

To find how a heal scales, you divide its coefficient by how often you receive healing from that source.
Stage 3 Healing Surge: 1.5/30 =.05
Healing Signet: .05
Adrenal Health: .15/3 =.05
They all scale the same.

Scaling refers to how much the heal improves relative to its base value. Something that heals for 9000 with a coefficient of 1 scales far worse than something that heals for 200 with a coefficient of 1. Healing surge and healing signet are big heals, so those coefficients give them poor scaling relative to adrenal health which is a small heal.

This is different than power, which scales properly across the board.

if u use shout healing build.. with the trait Shrug it Off.. doesnt that also count as a shout.. so having 4 shouts will be better then the banners?

Yaki.9563:

Veritas.6071:

Fenrir.5493:

Healing signet scales terrible with healing power, tha only thing that scales a bit better is adrenal health, regen is another one that scales a bit better, but healing signet nope.

To find how a heal scales, you divide its coefficient by how often you receive healing from that source.
Stage 3 Healing Surge: 1.5/30 =.05
Healing Signet: .05
Adrenal Health: .15/3 =.05
They all scale the same.

Scaling refers to how much the heal improves relative to its base value. Something that heals for 9000 with a coefficient of 1 scales far worse than something that heals for 200 with a coefficient of 1. Healing surge and healing signet are big heals, so those coefficients give them poor scaling relative to adrenal health which is a small heal.

This is different than power, which scales properly across the board.

I understand that argument, but damage in this game is always:

Health – Damage + Healing = Live or Die

What is important is that your healing can outpace the incoming damage. For achieving that, the addition of healing power functions the same in both Healing Signet and Adrenal Health.

Sure, you can say, “Oh, well 1000 healing power will increase my healing per second by 1.38% with Adrenal Health and 1.27% with Healing Signet.” But, as stated before, the formula for death is just Health – Damage + Healing = Whatever… So your goal is to simply increase your Healing/Second in hopes of outpacing damage. By what percentage you are increasing your healing isn’t of great relevance unless you are using it to gain perspective on exactly what you are gaining or losing. An example would be, “Do I run this clerics or soldiers? Hmmm okay, well I gain 3% healing per second but I lose 10% damage… doesn’t sound like a good deal.” And even those values should be taken with a grain of salt.

An example of poor scaling would be toughness:
+100 gives +4.5% mitigation or .045% mitigation per point on average
+500 gives +19.04% mitigation or .038% mitigation per point on average
+900 gives +29.74% mitigation or .033% mitigation per point on average

^^^This is an example of poor scaling. Each point of toughness provides less mitigation than the last.

Assuming a .05 coefficient
+100 gives 5 health per second or .05 health per second per 1 point
+500 gives 25 health per second or .05 health per second per 1 point
+900 45 health per second or .05 health per second per 1 point

^^^Healing power, like power, scales linearly. 1 point gives the same thing, every single time.

BALA.1520:

if u use shout healing build.. with the trait Shrug it Off.. doesnt that also count as a shout.. so having 4 shouts will be better then the banners?

I think if you set it on traits won’t work as an active shout, it will only do what it is designed to do, not stacking effects.

Shout builds have been the meta in WvW zerg fights for months now. Warriors were already one of the top 3 ZERG classes in WvW and this just made them stronger.

Veritas.6071:

An example of poor scaling would be toughness:
+100 gives +4.5% mitigation or .045% mitigation per point on average
+500 gives +19.04% mitigation or .038% mitigation per point on average
+900 gives +29.74% mitigation or .033% mitigation per point on average

^^^This is an example of poor scaling. Each point of toughness provides less mitigation than the last.

You are making a common mistake in failing to recognize that each percent of damage reduction or increase is not the same. As an extreme example, if you went from 99% damage reduction to 100% damage reduction that would an enormous difference (a boss could hit you for 1000000000000000000000000000000 damage but you would take 0) while going from 0% to 1% damage reduction is negligible.

Each percentage point of damage reduction is worth more than the previous one. And just the opposite, each percentage point of damage increase is worth less than the previous one.

Toughness does have some slight scaling issues, but it’s not because the percent reduction appears to diminish (it should, to retain linear damage reduction) but because it is added to armor meaning it already starts out worth less per point than it should be. Either power should be added to weapon damage or toughness should not be added to armor (and armor would reduce damage separately).

Yaki.9563:

Veritas.6071:

An example of poor scaling would be toughness:
+100 gives +4.5% mitigation or .045% mitigation per point on average
+500 gives +19.04% mitigation or .038% mitigation per point on average
+900 gives +29.74% mitigation or .033% mitigation per point on average

^^^This is an example of poor scaling. Each point of toughness provides less mitigation than the last.

You are making a common mistake in failing to recognize that each percent of damage reduction or increase is not the same. As an extreme example, if you went from 99% damage reduction to 100% damage reduction that would an enormous difference (a boss could hit you for 1000000000000000000000000000000 damage but you would take 0) while going from 0% to 1% damage reduction is negligible.

Each percentage point of damage reduction is worth more than the previous one. And just the opposite, each percentage point of damage increase is worth less than the previous one.

Toughness does have some slight scaling issues, but it’s not because the percent reduction appears to diminish (it should, to retain linear damage reduction) but because it is added to armor meaning it already starts out worth less per point than it should be. Either power should be added to weapon damage or toughness should not be added to armor (and armor would reduce damage separately).

I’m not exactly sure what you are saying, but here is an easy to see example:

100 total damage/ 2 armor = 50 damage received

Now, to half our damage, we must double armor.

100/4 = 25

And it stays true,

100/8 = 12.5
100/16=6.25
100/32=3.125
100/64=1.5625

So, our first added 2 armor reduced damage by 50%, in this case, 25 damage. The next 4 armor only stopped 12.5 damage, again 50% but only 12.5 damage. Double the investment, half as much damage stopped. The first 2 points of armor reduced damage by 25% each. The next four reduced damage by 12.5% each. And as we see above, it continues to decrease damage by 50% but 50% of the previous number gets progressively smaller.

But does the math stay true in another example? Let’s look.

1000000/2 = 500000

1000000/4 = 250000
50% decrease; 250000 more damage mitigated

1000000/8 = 125000
Another 50% decrease; only 125000 more damage mitigated

And a more applicable example:
212700/2127 armor= 100
212700/4254 armor= 50
212700/8508 armor= 25

Yep, as we see here, the more toughness you add, the less effective the next point becomes.

And we’ve successfully hijacked the thread. I don’t have anything else left to say. If you want more clarification, feel free to PM me.

You gotta view it in context:
To take 50% less damage, you need 50% reduction.
To take another 50% less damage, you need an additional 25% reduction, aka 75% total.
For another 50% less damage, you need an additional 12.5% reduction, aka 87.5% total.

Etc.
The further you climb up the numbers, the lower the absolute percentage increase has to be to achieve similar results.
Damage taken is always Damage x (1-reduction). The closer the reduction comes to 100%, the more efficient an increase by an absolute number will be. And to counteract this, Anet made toughness stack the way, it does.

Of course, if you calculate in absolute numbers, it goes like this:
50% reduction is 5000 of 10000 damage
25% additional reduction is only 2500 damage, which is less.

But as it’s additional reduction, it’s 2500 of the 5000 remaining damage, which is 50% more reduction. Those 25 points of reduction percentage were worth as much as the initial 50. q.e.d.

As you still won’t believe me, let’s talk in ehp(effective hp).

10000 hitpoints, 0% reduction: opponents need to deal 10000 raw damage to kill you.
50% reduction added to it, opponents need to deal 20000 raw damage to kill you.
25% reduction added to it, opponents need to deal 40000 raw damage to kill you.
12.5% reduction added to it, opponents need to deal 80000 raw damage to kill you.

It doesn’t matter, how little the additional reduction becomes, I can continue this as much as I want, with each added reduction of (1-prev.reduction)/2, the opponent needs to put in twice the effort to kill me.