Guild Wars 2

This has been nagging at the back of my mind for a while now, ever since the changes to the trait system. The tactics line used to have two traits for improving banner skills: the first reduced cooldowns and increased range, while the second gave regeneration. When the traits were switched to the new specialization system in preparation for HoT, the regen was moved to the middle of the Discipline line while the cooldown and range buff was cut entirely.

What I want to know is, what’s the explanation for that trait being cut? Most other skill types (at least as far as I’m aware) got their various buffs rolled into single traits, like shouts did. I really didn’t get the impression banners were in any particular need of a nerf, and the cooldown on warbanner is nigh unbearable without the reduction.

As it is, I really don’t see many people running banners (granted, I’ve been PvPing much more than anything else lately, so that’s likely a part of it), and taking them up again myself doesn’t seem too appealing as they are now, particularly given the tiny radius makes them a bit irritating to work with in any situation people aren’t stacking up in.

Thoughts? Answers?

If I remember correctly, this issue was brought up on the livestream preview to the trait overhaul before it actually came into game.

Their answer was something along the lines of they didn’t want it possible for one Warrior to maintain 100% Banner uptime, and they wanted to increase the neccessity of people picking up the Banners and carrying them from one conflict to the next, rather than them being left behind and the Warrior simply recasting them at the new combat location.

I don’t remember them mentioning anything about the range increase trait going missing though, though I’m aware it has, aswell as the old Powerful Banners trait that made Banners do damage when summoned. I’am disappointed these two didn’t get rolled into the currently existed Banner regeneration trait, it’s not like the damage was large but it was a nice bonus to encourage active combat banner placement.

I suppose it’ll never happen if they wanted to encourage carrying banners between conflicts rather than just recasting, but would have been nice if they wanted to keep the no 100% up-time thing if they at least halved the time a banner persists in exchange for halving the recharge. I feel they’d be a bit more usable in PvP at least, then.

I was wondering where the heck that trait went. Banners really don’t feel like they’re worth using half the time without that trait.

I used banner because I do not want to have Warhorn in a fight in WvW. It is mainly used for speed boost and the precision bonus. Nerfing it because they are nitpicking on how it should be used is absurd. No one wants to pick up a banner because banner skills does next to nothing for damage, protection, mobility, survival, condition mitigation, etc.

Actually, people underestimate the power of some of the Banner skills.

Skill 5 is a blast finisher, and you can never have too many of those. If everybody in a party would remember to use it, that’s enough Blast Finishers to stack 15 Might on one-skill before you even get started, rather than letting the poor Ele faff about weapon swapping constantly and trying to aim his Blast Finishers correctly.

Discipline Banner Skill 2 offers 50% Fury up-time alone (so if two people in a team remember to pick it up and cast it, that’s your 100% fury up-time for everyone right there).

Also the Heal on Tactics Banner 2 scales rather well with healing power compared to most non self-heal skills, and does make a difference if people remember to pick it up and use it (often see the benefit of this at Fire Shaman Elemental boss in Fractals). You are usually looking at a 1k+ heal even before adding Healing Power (not forgetting the Banner itself will be giving you extra Healing Power), which is enough to make a difference, especially if everybody grabs the Banner for a second and uses it.

Obviously, the Skill #3 Swiftness on all Banners speaks for itself in usefulness.

So yeah, the rest of the Banner skills are a bit meh but these four are pretty nice and it’d be nice if more people would educate themselves on them and use them from time-to-time; On occassion I’ve seen people complain about lack of Fury up-time in a fight in some PuGs and the Discipline Banner is right there!

But, that doesn’t change the fact that Banners could do with a little more love to encourage more active play and to be frank, noticible play value, such as giving them a reduced CD and reintroducing some of the old Banner traits somehow.

That clears it up a bit. Ah well, I still can’t say I’m happy with the explanation, but I do appreciate the feedback. Thanks guys.

If the radius nerf on Soothing Mist was any indication, I suspect the Banner radius nerf comes from a design desire to force players into tighter groups. I wish the trait would restore some of the old banner function for that, like 900 range.

The regen is nice, and I’ve used it for a long time, but on its own, banners are kind of pale, especially since regen stacks don’t compound very well. I’d actually accept the change more if it pulsed direct healing instead of, or in addition to, the regeneration.

But the biggest stick in the craw is the cooldown problem. I get the not-100% uptime angle (though I feel it’s very kewkew on the developers’ part). I’ll even grant the “drag it with you between encounters,” as that’s the reason banners are useful, but the best way to handle it was not to leave a gaping 30-second wound in our support efforts.

So, 75% uptime. Reasonable-ish. So drop the cooldown to 90 seconds and effective time to 75 seconds. (Technically, that’s 83% uptime, but..) That leaves a kinder 15-second gap in between and still provides over a minute of utility.

I just hope a bit more buff like effective area range and a bit more passive attribute, and Sprint’s range increase and its CD decrease lol

if they can also remove a condi of all allies in its range per some interval, it will be great to use though.

Tbh, only banner of strength and discipline is useful when it comes to fighting bosses. Other than that, fights don’t last long enough to merit the banners and it’s cumbersome to carry them around to enter a new combat engagement. Perhaps if they reworked the ‘inspiring banner’ trait to give them different buffs rather than just regeneration, people would have an incentive to carry them into battle.

example:
banner of defense: protection
banner of discipline: fury
banner of strength: 2 stacks of might
banner of tactics: retaliation
battle standard: 1 stack of stability

Boon duration applied and proc interval can be altered since some boons are stronger than the rest, but any of these are certainly better than regeneration, dealing damage when they are summoned, increasing area of effect, or reducing cooldown.

edit/ oh and it would be nice if banner skill 5 was a ranged skill (eg. throw the banner), since combat is mobile, engagements often move outside the banner’s circle of influence.

I have tested banner roughly for 2 months,

My feedback is that only cleric/settler type amulet will make some useful of regen heal. Other type like crusader or celestial will not make any useful becuz their healing points is bad : which means banner can be only used with bunker builds that has good healing points, either cleric or settler.

If i try to use banner with settler, only tactics banner will fit into. Or for cleric, discipline banner.

But i still feel lack of passive attribute.

To make useful of banner, at least 150% increase in passive attribute is in need. 170 to 255. For example, with cleric + discipline banner(8%) + Passive crit 7% sigil + fury, you will get 39% crit chance. If they buff to 255, it will be like 43%, which can be somehow useful crit chance. For now, 39% crit chance with 900power without any weapon trait does a very little damage that is not helpful. It does even less dps than settler shoutbow. (i am still unsure that 900pow with 43% crit and 300 felo would do higher dps than settler shoutbow)

But it won’t be any helpful in huge massive teamfight like 4vs4 with just passive buff. I am pretty sure that some extra work should also be done with passive buff to make it somehow useful in massive teamfight that enemy may be aware of. I heard from one guy telling us about possible interesting banner buff that emits some pulse from its source to edge end of its radius : like tremor in 360 degree that knock downs, or push back, stun or remove condi of touched allies and etc, depending on banner type. Of course, these pulses should be easily dodged with one’s some awareness though not to make a complete OP.

I hope anet would do something on banner rework lol but now we cannot do a thing with banner’s current state.

Banners will make a comeback in the raid. Spec for banners and VS and go zealots or clerics, and go shouts and flags.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

Banners will make a comeback in the raid. Spec for banners and VS and go zealots or clerics, and go shouts and flags.

did anet announce any banner buff?

No, but if raids are going to be facemelt, then we should all do our part to take on a portion of the healing. With zealot’s or cleric’s you can take Standard and Tactics or Defense banners with a couple of shouts with trooper runes. Use hammer or mace/shield to constantly apply weakness, and you have a solid front line build that will take heat off the healers.

Or maybe the raid gets nerfed and we zerk through the whole thing.

This is something that has bugged me a lot too. They should just merge the banner cooldown reduction and banner range increase into the Discipline trait for banners. This would still do what ANet wants because most PvE Warriors don’t take the Discipline specialization, and in order to trait banners they’d have to give up Phalanx Strength. That’s a very fair trade if you ask me.

yea with the cool down we would not even use banner other for fighting boss.

cooldown decrease, more range, sprint buff, passive stats buff or extra work (like emitting pulse or earthquake from banner) to make it viable in pvp.

Rising Dusk.2408:

This is something that has bugged me a lot too. They should just merge the banner cooldown reduction and banner range increase into the Discipline trait for banners. This would still do what ANet wants because most PvE Warriors don’t take the Discipline specialization, and in order to trait banners they’d have to give up Phalanx Strength. That’s a very fair trade if you ask me.

No. All that would do is make nobody use banners. Utility skills would immediately turn into For Great Justice, Signet of Might, Signet of Fury, and you would just increase personal DPS a little. 25 might is still a bigger DPS increase than banners are, nobody would give up Phalanx Strength.

Rising Dusk.2408:

This is something that has bugged me a lot too. They should just merge the banner cooldown reduction and banner range increase into the Discipline trait for banners. This would still do what ANet wants because most PvE Warriors don’t take the Discipline specialization, and in order to trait banners they’d have to give up Phalanx Strength. That’s a very fair trade if you ask me.

Phalanx is listed under Tactics (GM), so there’s not a conflict, except for possibly having to take the Discipline trait line over Tactics.

Considering Inspiring Banners takes up a Master slot, the Regen is merely okay. It needs something else for the trouble. So, time to farm some ideas!

As I noted above, cooldowns need a base adjustment. The previous trait allowed for near-100% uptime (6 second gap), and the devs weren’t keen on that. The 30-second gap we have now weakens banner to the point where you either run two of them or don’t use them at all. A 75-second effect and 90-second cooldown would balance uptime and downtime.

If the goal is to have Banners be the “healing” support option, have them pulse a weak heal along with the Regen: 50+1% Healing Power (or 150+3% HealPow per 3-sec interval). That would make it a huge boost for warrior as a support/healer.

To be more attack oriented, Banners pulse 1 stack of Might with the Regen.

Have the trait modify the skills the banner has. Reduce the cooldowns of carried banner skills by 20%. While carrying a Banner, Banner skills have additional effects:
Banner #1 (Stab) hits harder and grants Quickness (1 sec).
Banner #2 has increased effects (longer boons/conditions, higher damage/heals).
Banner #3 (Inspire) grants super speed (1 sec).
Banner #4 removes movement-impairing effects when cast.
Banner #5 does AoE damage (like the old Powerful Banners, range 600) in addition to its blast finisher.

I’m sure you folks can think of more.

I saw that banner play is only helpful (Kind of) in 1vs1 dueling but not helpful in team fight where huge amount of incoming burst goes around.

Either one of,

extra work is in need to make bannet somewhat really helpful in team fight, like people above saying,

or,

its cooldown time need to be reduced from 120s to 60s by half to summon it at every team fight since it is almost not really helpful in team fight : banner regen doesn’t work against huge incoming burst. But if we can summon it at every team fight, it could be somehow helpful.

Especially Sprint, this need to have similar mobility as Elementalist’s fiery greatsword.

I really loved banners and am really upset over the nerfs. The cooldown thing I can understand and begrudgingly accept, as well as removing banners doing damage (boy did I love to bomb a boss with all 4 banners)…but range? I feel like banners are next to useless without some kind of range buff. Having the party bunch up next to a banner becomes a hazard in a fight with lots of AoEs, and thus they wouldn’t be standing next to the banners long enough for the regen to be any big help. I loved doing dungeons with my banner warrior but now I’m not sure how viable they even are anymore.

along with what everyone is suggesting in regards to cooldown, the Elite Skill: Battle Standard should have Skill 2 cast while moving instead of rooting you and the Stability duration increased from 3 seconds to 5 seconds without increasing the Stability stacks.

The reasoning behind this is so the 2nd skill is aligned with other banner skills in being able to cast while moving while the duration increase allows you/allies to secure a stomp without overlapping with Guardian’s group stability shout which provides more stability stacks but no offensive boons.

ahh plz buff Sprint range to 900~1200 and cooldown time of banner decrease to 90sec. See how Sprint does nothing as compared to ele’s fiery greatsword’s mobility?