Guild Wars 2

Can any of you show up on Adrenaline Rising or SOTG to talk about warriors and how we can help make them better?

It feels like everything you guys do just either makes us worse or is just not enough (Aka a total joke.)

After almost months of promised sustain we have gotten nothing but a nerf to our damage, and now that our damage is along the line or more along the line of other classes DPS wise, what are we going to get to make us as tanky as guardians, or atleast close to them?

“As a heavily armored soldier profession, warriors are only second to guardians in terms of enduring punishment.”

This is why I picked the class, however heavy armor means nothing in this game, its about 150 more toughness, that is NOT enough compared to great healing, protection and vigor.

Currently we lack damage reduction, sustain, good healing (worst healing based on % in the game atm.) and vigor.

Vigor?? We have alot of options to get vigor.

alamore.1974:

Vigor?? We have alot of options to get vigor.

Not passive vigor, active vigor. Only with certain weapon sets as well.

In b4 deleted for calling staff

Vigourous Focus, Building Momentum (not vigor but still endurance regen), Signet of Stamina, Furious Reaction and Warhorn. Throw in Runes of Adventure and Sigil of Energy and I think if you wanted to specc a Warrior for repeated dodging, you can definitely do it.

Also, if you want to gain protection; just run Runes of the Forge or Runes of Earth. Warriors have really good access to weakness so they didn’t give them protection for that reason I’m assuming.

About Warrior Sustain. Trying to give everyone everything in one build is something you could possibly point out as the reason why Necros are the way they are right now. Warrior can spec into good sustain through Shouts and/or Regen so I don’t believe there’s any need to give them more than what they have already.

Dirame.8521:

Vigourous Focus, Building Momentum (not vigor but still endurance regen), Signet of Stamina, Furious Reaction and Warhorn. Throw in Runes of Adventure and Sigil of Energy and I think if you wanted to specc a Warrior for repeated dodging, you can definitely do it.

Also, if you want to gain protection; just run Runes of the Forge or Runes of Earth. Warriors have really good access to weakness so they didn’t give them protection for that reason I’m assuming.

About Warrior Sustain. Trying to give everyone everything in one build is something you could possibly point out as the reason why Necros are the way they are right now. Warrior can spec into good sustain through Shouts and/or Regen so I don’t believe there’s any need to give them more than what they have already.

Shouts and/Or Regen? They are horrible sustain. Shouts are good for a team of players but not for the warrior and other classes do it way better. Guardian does it better without giving up anything and to be honest.

Daecollo.9578:

After almost months of promised sustain we have gotten nothing but a nerf to our damage, and now that our damage is along the line or more along the line of other classes DPS wise, what are we going to get to make us as tanky as guardians, or atleast close to them?

Why should we be just as tanky as guardians?

Currently we lack damage reduction, sustain, good healing (worst healing based on % in the game atm.) and vigor.

Um, I’m pretty sure that Consume Conditions is worse than Healing Surge.

You want Vigor, you go Warhorn. Simple as that.

Honestly, to me it looks like you want Warriors to get high uptime on Protection and Vigor, along with passive condition removal and great heals. Well let me ask you: How the kitten would you do that without making Warriors OP or nerfing our damage to ridiculously low levels?

Daecollo, what have I and countless others on the forums told you about exaggerating to make your point? It’s true that we lack baseline sustain (which includes damage reduction), but we have solid vigor.

Dirame.8521:

Also, if you want to gain protection; just run Runes of the Forge or Runes of Earth. Warriors have really good access to weakness so they didn’t give them protection for that reason I’m assuming.

Seriously? Runes (or food) that anyone can use, is not a solution to a class lacking something. And even if it WAS, like how wars used to run all “lifesteal on crit” food/runes to make up for poor sustain, it means we’re pigeon holed into always needing to use it like a bandaid, to make up for a lacking of the core class.

Dirame.8521:

About Warrior Sustain. Trying to give everyone everything in one build is something you could possibly point out as the reason why Necros are the way they are right now. Warrior can spec into good sustain through Shouts and/or Regen so I don’t believe there’s any need to give them more than what they have already.

Warrior is also the only class that needs to spec just to GET ACCESS to alternate healing (shout/banner). Every other class gets BASELINE access to some moderate sustain, and can spec to ENHANCE these already existent sustain methods.

How exactly do you feel that’s a fair scenario?

Olba.5376:

Daecollo.9578:

After almost months of promised sustain we have gotten nothing but a nerf to our damage, and now that our damage is along the line or more along the line of other classes DPS wise, what are we going to get to make us as tanky as guardians, or atleast close to them?

Why should we be just as tanky as guardians?

Currently we lack damage reduction, sustain, good healing (worst healing based on % in the game atm.) and vigor.

Um, I’m pretty sure that Consume Conditions is worse than Healing Surge.

You want Vigor, you go Warhorn. Simple as that.

Honestly, to me it looks like you want Warriors to get high uptime on Protection and Vigor, along with passive condition removal and great heals. Well let me ask you: How the kitten would you do that without making Warriors OP or nerfing our damage to ridiculously low levels?

….

Consume Conditions is a necromancer ability.

Daecollo.9578:

….

Consume Conditions is a necromancer ability.

Which heals 5240 base out of their 18372 hp pool, which is a lot less than the 8440 we get out of Healing Surge. Thus making it worse healing based on % than what we get.

Granted, I’ll give you that Healing Signet needs to be boosted.

Consume Conditions is one of the best healing abilities in the game actually.

It cures all conditions on you and can heal for more then healing surge can, conditions are what is destroying the meta right now and consume conditions removes ALL of them and heals you for each one. Not only that it has less of a cool-down to BOOT.

Please go back to the Necromancer forums, you obviously don’t play a warrior.

Judging from your history so far, you have done nothing but tell people they’re ideas are overpowered, your one of the reasons this class is held back by false feedback.

Daecollo.9578:

Please go back to the Necromancer forums, you obviously don’t play a warrior.

This would be the second time you claim I don’t play a warrior. And the second time you get proven wrong.

Oh and also, if it’s the combination of low heals and lack of utility on those heals to compensate, you better say that. Because that’s very different from claiming that we have the kittentiest heals.

Judging from your history so far, you have done nothing but tell people they’re ideas are overpowered, your one of the reasons this class is held back by false feedback.

That’s because most of the suggestions that people give are overpowered. And honestly, we already get enough complaints about ANet nerfing classes, the last thing we need is to give them reasons for nerfing. Because giving overpowered abilities and then nerfing them down would do just that.

And just out of curiosity, let me ask you. Just equipping Warhorn gives you 50% uptime on Vigor. Traiting for Warhorn makes it 80% uptime. What would you do to give us other sources of Vigor without enabling Warhorn users to get permanent Vigor?

Olba.5376:

Why should we be just as tanky as guardians?

Warrior was pretty much advertised and sold as a Tanky class. It wears heavy armor.

Not enough? Well what about the “play it your way” which, under that school of thought, you should be able to build to be tank, supporty, DPSy, hybridy, with any class?

Olba.5376:

Um, I’m pretty sure that Consume Conditions is worse than Healing Surge.

Consume conditions is better compared to Mending (comparing to healing surge makes no sense). And in that contest, Consume is far superior.

Olba.5376:

Honestly, to me it looks like you want Warriors to get high uptime on Protection and Vigor, along with passive condition removal and great heals. Well let me ask you: How the kitten would you do that without making Warriors OP or nerfing our damage to ridiculously low levels?

I cant speak for Daecollo, but I’ll tell you exactly what I want, and why it wouldn’t be OP.

I want Warriors to have some baseline sustain on the same level as the other classes, primarily Guardian. Why always Guardian? Because guardian is a no-gimmicks (stealth/invis/clones/gadgets), heavy armor, melee orientated, frontline trooper. Sound familiar? It’s cause Guardian is pretty much our brother class.

I feel this baseline sustain would be best accomplished by linking some form of healing to gaining adrenaline, and by giving us some baseline access to protection and/or regen.

I then want our Tactics and/or Defense tree to actually enhance this already existing sustain.

Here’s the end result, and why it would not be OP:

Zerker warriors would get a tiny increase to sustain. It would have a minimal impact because they A) Didnt spec for Defense/Tactics to enhance it, and Will die extremely fast when targeted, too fast for the baseline sustain to meaningfully prolong their life. This is as it should be, glass cannons are glass.

Support, Melee, CC, and Hybrid Warriors would see a notable increase to sustain, since they’re specced half for survival and half for an alternate role, be it DPS, control, or support. This is also as it should be, just look at the hybrid guardian builds floating around.

Bunker Warriors could become an actual viable build, on par with Bunker Guardians, Eles, and Engys. With their baseline sustain fully enhanced by speccing into both Defense and Tactics, they’ll be a pain to kill…. while putting out low damage and pressure.

Dand.8231:

Consume conditions is better compared to Mending (comparing to healing surge makes no sense). And in that contest, Consume is far superior.

I was not contesting it as a good healing skill, I was contesting the statement about Warriors getting the lowest amount of percentage-wise healing from healing skills.

I feel this baseline sustain would be best accomplished by linking some form of healing to gaining adrenaline, and by giving us some baseline access to protection and/or regen.

Add some healing to Cleansing Ire?

As for Protection, I am against that simply because it’s a bit too close to Guardians. And let’s be honest, the moment you give Warriors Protection, it just turns from “WE WANT PROTECTION!” to “GUARDIANS HAVE BETTER PROTECTION!”, essentially changing nothing. Unless of course you copy Guardians or make us superior to them, neither of which is a proper choice of action.

As for Renegeration, we already get that from traiting into banners. And before you refute banners and/or the Tactics line as useless, that’s a whole different issue.

I then want our Tactics and/or Defense tree to actually enhance this already existing sustain.

It’s already there, with things like Dogged March, Cleansing Ire, Quick Breathing and Vigorous Shouts. It just needs tweaking.

Olba.5376:

Oh and also, if it’s the combination of low heals and lack of utility on those heals to compensate, you better say that. Because that’s very different from claiming that we have the kittentiest heals.

Olba.5376:

As for Renegeration, we already get that from traiting into banners. And before you refute banners and/or the Tactics line as useless, that’s a whole different issue.

Our heals are actually solid in my opinion. Most classes #6 skills are actually pretty balanced.

The problem, IMO, isnt the #6 itself, it’s that Warrior is also the only class that needs to spec just to GET ACCESS to alternate means of sustain (IE shout/banner). Every other class gets BASELINE access to some moderate sustain, and can spec to ENHANCE these already existent sustain methods.

Examples:
Guard: Virtue of Resolve, Protection/Regen utilities
Ele: Water attune regen. Some water weapon skills and water fields. Protection utilities.
Necro: Deathshroud/Lifesteal
Thief/Mesmer: Sustain is more complicated here, but essentially comes from evasion via clones/stealth, blinds, dazes, stuns, etc. Far more difficult to quantify, but no less effective in practice.
Engy: F1, Protection/Regen utilities.

So at the risk of repeating myself, the problem isnt that #6 heal is bad, it’s that ALL we have baseline is #6 heal.

We also have no self-sustain path.

Shouts/Banner Regeneration are more group oriented.

Warriors are currently the only class without a self sustain path, every other class has one.

Olba.5376:

Daecollo.9578:

Please go back to the Necromancer forums, you obviously don’t play a warrior.

This would be the second time you claim I don’t play a warrior. And the second time you get proven wrong.

Oh and also, if it’s the combination of low heals and lack of utility on those heals to compensate, you better say that. Because that’s very different from claiming that we have the kittentiest heals.

Judging from your history so far, you have done nothing but tell people they’re ideas are overpowered, your one of the reasons this class is held back by false feedback.

That’s because most of the suggestions that people give are overpowered. And honestly, we already get enough complaints about ANet nerfing classes, the last thing we need is to give them reasons for nerfing. Because giving overpowered abilities and then nerfing them down would do just that.

And just out of curiosity, let me ask you. Just equipping Warhorn gives you 50% uptime on Vigor. Traiting for Warhorn makes it 80% uptime. What would you do to give us other sources of Vigor without enabling Warhorn users to get permanent Vigor?

Warhorn user could already get perma vigor. Warhorn traited + vigor on stance with a couple stances = perma vigor.

Velron.3729:

Olba.5376:

Daecollo.9578:

Please go back to the Necromancer forums, you obviously don’t play a warrior.

This would be the second time you claim I don’t play a warrior. And the second time you get proven wrong.

Oh and also, if it’s the combination of low heals and lack of utility on those heals to compensate, you better say that. Because that’s very different from claiming that we have the kittentiest heals.

Judging from your history so far, you have done nothing but tell people they’re ideas are overpowered, your one of the reasons this class is held back by false feedback.

That’s because most of the suggestions that people give are overpowered. And honestly, we already get enough complaints about ANet nerfing classes, the last thing we need is to give them reasons for nerfing. Because giving overpowered abilities and then nerfing them down would do just that.

And just out of curiosity, let me ask you. Just equipping Warhorn gives you 50% uptime on Vigor. Traiting for Warhorn makes it 80% uptime. What would you do to give us other sources of Vigor without enabling Warhorn users to get permanent Vigor?

Warhorn user could already get perma vigor. Warhorn traited + vigor on stance with a couple stances = perma vigor.

In the same effect a guardian spends 5 points in getting what we get spending 40 points. They don’t even have to waste there time refreshing it either it does it for them

Olba.5376:

It’s already there, with things like Dogged March, Cleansing Ire, Quick Breathing and Vigorous Shouts. It just needs tweaking.

Dogged march is 3 seconds of regen. It makes for a great adept trait for the 33% reduction, but it isnt going to help sustain much of anything.

Cleansing Ire works great with longbow, but otherwise I find that the very conditions it’s mean to clear, prevent you from using/landing it (blind, cripple, immob).

And shout healing is exactly what I’m talking about. You have to spec JUST TO GET alternate sustain. It’s all or nothing. Every other class (except perhaps rangers) gets alternate forms of sustain outside of the #6 button, baseline, with 0/0/0/0/0. Check above for my list of examples.

Daecollo.9578:

Velron.3729:

Olba.5376:

Daecollo.9578:

Please go back to the Necromancer forums, you obviously don’t play a warrior.

This would be the second time you claim I don’t play a warrior. And the second time you get proven wrong.

Oh and also, if it’s the combination of low heals and lack of utility on those heals to compensate, you better say that. Because that’s very different from claiming that we have the kittentiest heals.

Judging from your history so far, you have done nothing but tell people they’re ideas are overpowered, your one of the reasons this class is held back by false feedback.

That’s because most of the suggestions that people give are overpowered. And honestly, we already get enough complaints about ANet nerfing classes, the last thing we need is to give them reasons for nerfing. Because giving overpowered abilities and then nerfing them down would do just that.

And just out of curiosity, let me ask you. Just equipping Warhorn gives you 50% uptime on Vigor. Traiting for Warhorn makes it 80% uptime. What would you do to give us other sources of Vigor without enabling Warhorn users to get permanent Vigor?

Warhorn user could already get perma vigor. Warhorn traited + vigor on stance with a couple stances = perma vigor.

In the same effect a guardian spends 5 points in getting what we get spending 40 points. They don’t even have to waste there time refreshing it either it does it for them

And unlike Guardians, we have much higher crit rate so such a trait would never work with us.

Cleansing Ire works great with longbow, but otherwise I find that the very conditions it’s mean to clear, prevent you from using/landing it (blind, cripple, immob).

That is a problem with how adrenaline works, not with how the trait works.

And while some people seem to want to fix that issue by making Cleansing Ire remove 1 condition whenever you gain a bar of adrenaline, that is not only much less consistent, but also potentially broken with various trait setups or utilities:

• Berserker Stance would result in it cleansing 1 condition every 2 seconds. Coupled with its current effect, that would be crazy powerful.
• Signet of Fury would cleanse 3 conditions
• Furious and Sharpened Axes would make the cleansing speed excessive
• Inspiring Shouts would make all shouts gain the 6 rune effect of Runes of Soldier
• Healing Surge would cleanse 3 conditions, thus making Mending obsolete

And shout healing is exactly what I’m talking about. You have to spec JUST TO GET alternate sustain. It’s all or nothing. Every other class (except perhaps rangers) gets alternate forms of sustain outside of the #6 button, baseline, with 0/0/0/0/0. Check above for my list of examples.

I’m probably going to get a ton of crap for saying this, but I am pretty sure that a lot of the “sustain” of Stealth comes from going 30 into Shadow Arts. That is kinda like our Tactics line.

Dand.8231:

Olba.5376:

It’s already there, with things like Dogged March, Cleansing Ire, Quick Breathing and Vigorous Shouts. It just needs tweaking.

Dogged march is 3 seconds of regen. It makes for a great adept trait for the 33% reduction, but it isnt going to help sustain much of anything.

Cleansing Ire works great with longbow, but otherwise I find that the very conditions it’s mean to clear, prevent you from using/landing it (blind, cripple, immob).

And shout healing is exactly what I’m talking about. You have to spec JUST TO GET alternate sustain. It’s all or nothing. Every other class (except perhaps rangers) gets alternate forms of sustain outside of the #6 button, baseline, with 0/0/0/0/0. Check above for my list of examples.

Ranger does too, such as pets that cast AOE heals and signets that give secondary passive regen, etc.

Olba.5376:

Daecollo.9578:

Velron.3729:

Olba.5376:

Daecollo.9578:

Please go back to the Necromancer forums, you obviously don’t play a warrior.

This would be the second time you claim I don’t play a warrior. And the second time you get proven wrong.

Oh and also, if it’s the combination of low heals and lack of utility on those heals to compensate, you better say that. Because that’s very different from claiming that we have the kittentiest heals.

Judging from your history so far, you have done nothing but tell people they’re ideas are overpowered, your one of the reasons this class is held back by false feedback.

That’s because most of the suggestions that people give are overpowered. And honestly, we already get enough complaints about ANet nerfing classes, the last thing we need is to give them reasons for nerfing. Because giving overpowered abilities and then nerfing them down would do just that.

And just out of curiosity, let me ask you. Just equipping Warhorn gives you 50% uptime on Vigor. Traiting for Warhorn makes it 80% uptime. What would you do to give us other sources of Vigor without enabling Warhorn users to get permanent Vigor?

Warhorn user could already get perma vigor. Warhorn traited + vigor on stance with a couple stances = perma vigor.

In the same effect a guardian spends 5 points in getting what we get spending 40 points. They don’t even have to waste there time refreshing it either it does it for them

And unlike Guardians, we have much higher crit rate so such a trait would never work with us.

Wait…do stats effect each profession differently? Wouldn’t a Guardian have as much crit as they spec for? I have a DPS guard I mess around on and he’s over 50% crit. And I only had to spend 5 points for basically perma vigor in combat.

Daecollo.9578:

In the same effect a guardian spends 5 points in getting what we get spending 40 points. They don’t even have to waste there time refreshing it either it does it for them

I’d kill to get Vigorous Precision (Guardian 5 pt), instead of Thick Skin (Warrior 5 pt).

Velron.3729:

Ranger does too, such as pets that cast AOE heals and signets that give secondary passive regen, etc.

Ah. Thanks. Ranger is the class I’m least experienced in.

Still, that just means warrior really is the only class with no alternate healing outside of #6, at 0/0/0/0/0.

Velron.3729:

Olba.5376:

Daecollo.9578:

Velron.3729:

Olba.5376:

Daecollo.9578:

Please go back to the Necromancer forums, you obviously don’t play a warrior.

This would be the second time you claim I don’t play a warrior. And the second time you get proven wrong.

Oh and also, if it’s the combination of low heals and lack of utility on those heals to compensate, you better say that. Because that’s very different from claiming that we have the kittentiest heals.

Judging from your history so far, you have done nothing but tell people they’re ideas are overpowered, your one of the reasons this class is held back by false feedback.

That’s because most of the suggestions that people give are overpowered. And honestly, we already get enough complaints about ANet nerfing classes, the last thing we need is to give them reasons for nerfing. Because giving overpowered abilities and then nerfing them down would do just that.

And just out of curiosity, let me ask you. Just equipping Warhorn gives you 50% uptime on Vigor. Traiting for Warhorn makes it 80% uptime. What would you do to give us other sources of Vigor without enabling Warhorn users to get permanent Vigor?

Warhorn user could already get perma vigor. Warhorn traited + vigor on stance with a couple stances = perma vigor.

In the same effect a guardian spends 5 points in getting what we get spending 40 points. They don’t even have to waste there time refreshing it either it does it for them

And unlike Guardians, we have much higher crit rate so such a trait would never work with us.

Wait…do stats effect each profession differently? Wouldn’t a Guardian have as much crit as they spec for? I have a DPS guard I mess around on and he’s over 50% crit. And I only had to spend 5 points for basically perma vigor in combat.

Warriors have a much easier access to Fury, not to mention stuff like Banner of Discipline and Signet of Fury. My warrior up there has 66% crit rate out of combat with no foods. He goes up to 86% with Fury (which I can easily make permanent), then an additional 340 Precision from Signet of Fury and Banner of Discipline and we’re talking over 100% crit rate.

Guardians has protection. Warriors has weakness, and should have more access to that. Also a parry combat system, baseline healing behind no.6

Weakness howered unlike protection is a condition and rng based, howered when its up its pretty brutal (in pic).

As others have pointed out we need to use an offhand weapon/trait+stances while a guardian getting vigor just from a minor trait up to perma if specced for zerk.

I agree theres no point comparing warrior to guardian tho. They are superior version of warrior as it is. Current warrior in gw2 comes from a holy trinity game as its lacking in every area except cc. But i don’t like to be a stunbot, bannerregenbot, or being carried by team to be viable.

Olba.5376:

Daecollo.9578:

....

Consume Conditions is a necromancer ability.

Which heals 5240 base out of their 18372 hp pool, which is a lot less than the 8440 we get out of Healing Surge. Thus making it *worse healing based on %* than what we get.

Granted, I’ll give you that Healing Signet needs to be boosted.

Consume Conditions is one of the best utility heals in the game. Especially during a condition based meta such as right now. If you are going to compare Consume Conditions assuming a necro will not have any conditions on them when used (which is rare) then to make it fair you have to compare it to Healing Surge without adrenaline. You aren’t always going to have full adrenaline when the heal is used.

Stage 0 Adrenaline = 5,240 Heal
Consume Condition Baseline = 5,240 Heal

They both heal the same assuming the least ideal situation. Except Healing Surge has a 30 second cooldown and Consume Conditions a 25 second cooldown.

The whole concept of Healing Surge really works against itself if you think about it. It forces upon you two options, in which the effect is either/or. Either, you spend your adrenaline then pop Healing Surge for a really crappy amount just so you can have a full bar of adrenaline to use F1 on your alternate weapon. Or wait till you have full adrenaline, pop a pretty nice heal but you lose the 30 adrenaline gain because your adrenaline bar is already full.

Not to mention, Mending is a much more terrible carbon copy clone of Consume conditions. Every class has a heal that is unique or has some unique effect that makes it different, whether it has blocks, evade, condition removal, reflect, regen, even all the way down to the base healing it provides and the cooldown. This is something I am surprised the devs have not changed yet.

Both have condition removal (consume conditions removes all conditions as opposed to the 2 from mending), both heal for roughly the same amount baseline wise (although in a realistic situation you will probably heal an extra 2K from consume conditions) and both have a 25 second cooldown.

I often wonder if the fault is with the player and not the class, from what I’ve seen from good warriors they’ve walked around the god almighty path of sustain and managed to be quite successful with out it.

I just don’t get how so many can turn what we have into something productive whilst a bunch of us sit down and scream one word at the computer screen hoping it will fix it. “SUSSSSSSSTAAAAAAAINNNNNNNNN” They weep as they get pounded on and killed knowing little that if they had that god almighty sustain they’d just die 10 seconds later.

I’m like level 15 PvP bro. Pretty sure I know what I am talking about

Billy.1879:

I often wonder if the fault is with the player and not the class, from what I’ve seen from good warriors they’ve walked around the god almighty path of sustain and managed to be quite successful with out it.

I just don’t get how so many can turn what we have into something productive whilst a bunch of us sit down and scream one word at the computer screen hoping it will fix it. “SUSSSSSSSTAAAAAAAINNNNNNNNN” They weep as they get pounded on and killed knowing little that if they had that god almighty sustain they’d just die 10 seconds later.

I’m like level 15 PvP bro. Pretty sure I know what I am talking about

This. There are builds that have crazy good sustain / condition removal, but people don’t want to trade off lol-tastic dps for it. They just want it given to them for free. Most classes have to spec just as heavily as warriors for their ability to survive (as someone mentioned thieves, and iirc mesmers as well. Hell, even Guardians don’t get heal dodges until 15 pts into honor.) While I will say getting protection isn’t a boon I see warrior acquiring anytime soon, what I would like to see is more weapon sets have is access to weakness. Weakness is a condition that granted can be cured, but with several weapon sets that can regularly apply it already, having weakness being a warrior condition staple would be the best way to deal with everyone’s ‘sustain’ cries mainly due to the fact that it outright cripples an opponents dps by 50% when it procs (which it does more often than not). I would take having the ability of putting 4-10 seconds of weakness on someone regularly as opposed to having 4 seconds of protection on a 30-40 second cooldown any day of the week. Weakness application + healing shouts / regen banners = me telling any enemy “lol do you even lift?”

Olba.5376:

Daecollo.9578:

Velron.3729:

Olba.5376:

Daecollo.9578:

Please go back to the Necromancer forums, you obviously don’t play a warrior.

This would be the second time you claim I don’t play a warrior. And the second time you get proven wrong.

Oh and also, if it’s the combination of low heals and lack of utility on those heals to compensate, you better say that. Because that’s very different from claiming that we have the kittentiest heals.

Judging from your history so far, you have done nothing but tell people they’re ideas are overpowered, your one of the reasons this class is held back by false feedback.

That’s because most of the suggestions that people give are overpowered. And honestly, we already get enough complaints about ANet nerfing classes, the last thing we need is to give them reasons for nerfing. Because giving overpowered abilities and then nerfing them down would do just that.

And just out of curiosity, let me ask you. Just equipping Warhorn gives you 50% uptime on Vigor. Traiting for Warhorn makes it 80% uptime. What would you do to give us other sources of Vigor without enabling Warhorn users to get permanent Vigor?

Warhorn user could already get perma vigor. Warhorn traited + vigor on stance with a couple stances = perma vigor.

In the same effect a guardian spends 5 points in getting what we get spending 40 points. They don’t even have to waste there time refreshing it either it does it for them

And unlike Guardians, we have much higher crit rate so such a trait would never work with us.

Cleansing Ire works great with longbow, but otherwise I find that the very conditions it’s mean to clear, prevent you from using/landing it (blind, cripple, immob).

That is a problem with how adrenaline works, not with how the trait works.

And while some people seem to want to fix that issue by making Cleansing Ire remove 1 condition whenever you gain a bar of adrenaline, that is not only much less consistent, but also potentially broken with various trait setups or utilities:

• Berserker Stance would result in it cleansing 1 condition every 2 seconds. Coupled with its current effect, that would be crazy powerful.
• Signet of Fury would cleanse 3 conditions
• Furious and Sharpened Axes would make the cleansing speed excessive
• Inspiring Shouts would make all shouts gain the 6 rune effect of Runes of Soldier
• Healing Surge would cleanse 3 conditions, thus making Mending obsolete

And shout healing is exactly what I’m talking about. You have to spec JUST TO GET alternate sustain. It’s all or nothing. Every other class (except perhaps rangers) gets alternate forms of sustain outside of the #6 button, baseline, with 0/0/0/0/0. Check above for my list of examples.

I’m probably going to get a ton of crap for saying this, but I am pretty sure that a lot of the “sustain” of Stealth comes from going 30 into Shadow Arts. That is kinda like our Tactics line.

Guardians can easily achieve comparable or higher crit levels because of Right Handed Strength.

Billy.1879:

I often wonder if the fault is with the player and not the class, from what I’ve seen from good warriors they’ve walked around the god almighty path of sustain and managed to be quite successful with out it.

I just don’t get how so many can turn what we have into something productive whilst a bunch of us sit down and scream one word at the computer screen hoping it will fix it. “SUSSSSSSSTAAAAAAAINNNNNNNNN” They weep as they get pounded on and killed knowing little that if they had that god almighty sustain they’d just die 10 seconds later.

I’m like level 15 PvP bro. Pretty sure I know what I am talking about

Trolling? Level 15 in PvP lol. Next time you’ll tell me you’re level 30 in PvE, that would just make it impossible to argue your points!

There are no Warriors in most serious PvP teams. None. Wonder why? Warrior can’t bunker and is an average roamer, while also being the worst dueling class in the game. Can’t take the treb from that Engie/Mesmer, can’t kill that Guardian on Clocktower…

Dand.8231:

Examples:
Guard: Virtue of Resolve, Protection/Regen utilities
Ele: Water attune regen. Some water weapon skills and water fields. Protection utilities.
Necro: Deathshroud/Lifesteal
Thief/Mesmer: Sustain is more complicated here, but essentially comes from evasion via clones/stealth, blinds, dazes, stuns, etc. Far more difficult to quantify, but no less effective in practice.
Engy: F1, Protection/Regen utilities.

Ele has to trait for water attune regen and Necro has to trait for lifesteal. Those aren’t baseline abilities. And to pull out weapon skills is unfair, considering that at 0/0/0/0/0, the Vigor and AoE weakness of call to arms will probably provide more damage mitigation than an Ele’s geyser or cleansing wave, or a Necro’s Life Siphon would heal.

While it’s undoubtedly true that other classes have an easier time speccing for superior sustain, you can’t overstate these “baseline” abilities.

Ushio.7138:

Dand.8231:

Examples:
Guard: Virtue of Resolve, Protection/Regen utilities
Ele: Water attune regen. Some water weapon skills and water fields. Protection utilities.
Necro: Deathshroud/Lifesteal
Thief/Mesmer: Sustain is more complicated here, but essentially comes from evasion via clones/stealth, blinds, dazes, stuns, etc. Far more difficult to quantify, but no less effective in practice.
Engy: F1, Protection/Regen utilities.

Ele has to trait for water attune regen and Necro has to trait for lifesteal. Those aren’t baseline abilities. And to pull out weapon skills is unfair, considering that at 0/0/0/0/0, the Vigor and AoE weakness of call to arms will probably provide more damage mitigation than an Ele’s geyser or cleansing wave, or a Necro’s Life Siphon would heal.

While it’s undoubtedly true that other classes have an easier time speccing for superior sustain, you can’t overstate these “baseline” abilities.

Ele’s water attunement line has healing built into it, so does the dagger ‘2’ for necromancer.

These are what he meant, please don’t take this out of line.

Other classes have things like: Protection/Retaliation/Regeneration/Healing/Sustain built right into there basic weapon sets/attacks while we do not, that is the difference.

The issue warriors have is things like shout heals, banner regens, the condi removal on shake it off, etc. are all scaled off of having 5 people in range. It’s not self sustain, it’s group sustain.

Daecollo.9578:

Ele’s water attunement line has healing built into it, so does the dagger ‘2’ for necromancer.

These are what he meant, please don’t take this out of line.

Other classes have things like: Protection/Retaliation/Regeneration/Healing/Sustain built right into there basic weapon sets/attacks while we do not, that is the difference.

Depends on your weapons. S/F for Ele has no healing outside of the pitiful Water Trident. D/F has no healing. Staff heals are on such a long CD you’ll get them off once per engagement, and only get benefit if you can somehow stand in them for extended periods of time. The Necro dagger 2 doesn’t heal very much at all and is a long channel. However, the Warrior warhorn has AoE vigor and weakness, as well as condition removal on very friendly CDs. At an absolute BASELINE (0/0/0/0/0) level, as his post mentioned, the Warrior warhorn would outperfom either of those.

I never disputed that other classes have access to methods that are easier to enhance with traits, as well as being better enhanced by traits. But that laundry list of “baseline sustain” other classes have was simply incorrect.

Ushio.7138:

Daecollo.9578:

Ele’s water attunement line has healing built into it, so does the dagger ‘2’ for necromancer.

These are what he meant, please don’t take this out of line.

Other classes have things like: Protection/Retaliation/Regeneration/Healing/Sustain built right into there basic weapon sets/attacks while we do not, that is the difference.

Depends on your weapons. S/F for Ele has no healing outside of the pitiful Water Trident. D/F has no healing. Staff heals are on such a long CD you’ll get them off once per engagement, and only get benefit if you can somehow stand in them for extended periods of time. The Necro dagger 2 doesn’t heal very much at all and is a long channel. However, the Warrior warhorn has AoE vigor and weakness, as well as condition removal on very friendly CDs. At an absolute BASELINE (0/0/0/0/0) level, as his post mentioned, the Warrior warhorn would outperfom either of those.

I never disputed that other classes have access to methods that are easier to enhance with traits, as well as being better enhanced by traits. But that laundry list of “baseline sustain” other classes have was simply incorrect.

Baseline horn only removes cripple, chill, or immobilize, the things warriors can already -condi duration heavily.

Ushio.7138:

I never disputed that other classes have access to methods that are easier to enhance with traits, as well as being better enhanced by traits. But that laundry list of “baseline sustain” other classes have was simply incorrect.

My apologies for any incorrect info. Contrary to popular belief, I’m not perfect! XD

Mistakes aside, the point remains valid, all other classes have modest baseline sustain aside from #6, which can be enhanced via trait lines. Warriors lack this baseline sustain, and must spec heavily just to get access to it.

Again, the result is:
Warrior Zerker builds are fine Lack of sustain means little.
Warrior Bunker builds are do-able but somewhat weak, as the traited self-sustain is still a bit low; the healing is there, but still lacking protection.
Warrior Hybrid builds just plain flop, a slightly more survivable, but much lower damage version of zerker.