Guild Wars 2

Spiked Armor for those of you who do not know is a Grandmaster trait in the defense line. While it is true we have many bad traits has been passively getting nerfed. With the likely changes to retal and the nerfs that have already happened I honestly believe this trait should be removed or replaced. I do not see much room for improvement or making the trait better.

I honestly believe this is one of those traits that in the process of nerfing guardians (engineers to a lesser extent) was simply forgetting about. Before due to the massive power levels we can achieve it was an “ok” trait to carry in a defensive build. It still synergies well with Empowered to an extent. However, even this trait has been undermined by Empowered Allies buffs (not a bad thing but it is the truth).

As a grandmaster trait imho it just doesn’t really have a place. Seeing it replaced with a heal, protection, or anything more defensive would make more sense. As a Grand master trait in the defensive line it should feel like it worth taking over Defy Pain. I think this little nearly forgotten trait needs to go.

Its still can be cool.. as (noob censure?) 5 minor trait

Scoobaniec.9561:

Its still can be cool.. as (noob censure?) 5 minor trait

After looking at the minor traits for the Defense line I threw that suggestion out. Unlike Tactics they are all good and appreciated. Not a one of them needs to be replaced for a trait like this. I honestly believe it needs to go and be replaced.

TheGuy.3568:

Scoobaniec.9561:

Its still can be cool.. as (noob censure?) 5 minor trait

After looking at the minor traits for the Defense line I threw that suggestion out. Unlike Tactics they are all good and appreciated. Not a one of them needs to be replaced for a trait like this. I honestly believe it needs to go and be replaced.

Minor trait 5 in defense is probably the worse of all. 100 extra toughness above 90% hp.

Scoobaniec.9561:

TheGuy.3568:

Scoobaniec.9561:

Its still can be cool.. as (noob censure?) 5 minor trait

After looking at the minor traits for the Defense line I threw that suggestion out. Unlike Tactics they are all good and appreciated. Not a one of them needs to be replaced for a trait like this. I honestly believe it needs to go and be replaced.

Minor trait 5 in defense is probably the worse of all. 100 extra toughness above 90% hp.

Yeah the 5pt trait is like 3% mitigation for 1 hit?

Speaking purely from the WvW perspective, Spiked Armor is still fun even after the nerf. I would be sad to see it go, personally.

peter.9024:

Scoobaniec.9561:

TheGuy.3568:

Scoobaniec.9561:

Its still can be cool.. as (noob censure?) 5 minor trait

After looking at the minor traits for the Defense line I threw that suggestion out. Unlike Tactics they are all good and appreciated. Not a one of them needs to be replaced for a trait like this. I honestly believe it needs to go and be replaced.

Minor trait 5 in defense is probably the worse of all. 100 extra toughness above 90% hp.

Yeah the 5pt trait is like 3% mitigation for 1 hit?

Well depends on your build. Pure “bunker” can “use” it to great effect. And it is a 5 point trait so not that big a deal. Honestly, I do not care. Sorry, but it is not worth derailing a thread to disagree over something so minor (get it?). Spiked Armor needs to be moved out of the major trait list end of story. Doesn’t matter if they made it a minor or not it needs to go.

Ultrajoe.8674:

Speaking purely from the WvW perspective, Spiked Armor is still fun even after the nerf. I would be sad to see it go, personally.

You have to put it in perspective. Compared to defy pain it just doesn’t add up as a 30 point trait. In most builds cross class it will not hold it’s weight. I use it too but I am not worried about losing it. As a trait it has no real place in the line. Half the lower traits are more useful simply due to the way the class is designed. I am not saying it can not be used but that it’s time for it to go in place of a true grand master worthy defensive trait.

Think about the first response moving it to 5 points.

Scoobaniec.9561:

Its still can be cool.. as (noob censure?) 5 minor trait

yes, move it to 5pt minor.

and perhaps, replace it with a grandmaster trait that synergizes with it. somewhere along the line of x% damage reduction while you have retaliation?

TheGuy.3568:

Ultrajoe.8674:

Speaking purely from the WvW perspective, Spiked Armor is still fun even after the nerf. I would be sad to see it go, personally.

You have to put it in perspective. Compared to defy pain it just doesn’t add up as a 30 point trait. In most builds cross class it will not hold it’s weight. I use it too but I am not worried about losing it. As a trait it has no real place in the line. Half the lower traits are more useful simply due to the way the class is designed. I am not saying it can not be used but that it’s time for it to go in place of a true grand master worthy defensive trait.

Think about the first response moving it to 5 points.

I contest this, though. In any multi-target situation the skill will deal thousands of damage and will be easily triggered every cooldown, for a marvelous uptime and a nice fat chunk of hurt. Even nerfed, Retaliation is incredibly fun and combined with ‘Empowered’ it will even make itself stronger! As a minor trait it would grant us far too much for simply spending points, and make the defensive tree stronger than it already is. I also don’t think it’s underwhelming for a grandmaster trait. It’s passive and situational, but it’s also very useful in the cases it was intended for. I would counsel that, if at all, it should be moved down a tier to free up a grandmaster slot.

What would you replace it with, incidentally, if it was removed from grandmaster?

To make it a good trait, make it a ‘5’ or ‘25’.

Make our 5 point trait 10% of all toughness is precision, since we pretty much NEED critical chance as a warrior.

Make our 25 Trait Spiked Armor, except add protection.

I agree Spiked Armor is lack luster, but it’s not awful. Unfortunately Defy pain does seem to out shine it. It’s only good on builds with medium-high survivability.

and 33% uptime on retaliation isn’t really appealing on a GM trait.

at least have it grant 5secs or retal upon taking a critical hit with a 5 or 10 sec icd. and move it to minor 5 or 25.

some GM trait suggestions could be
Will to Survive – increase damage reduction the lower our hp goes. (this could be the counterpart of desperate power)
at 75%hp, increase dmg reduction by 10%,
at 50%hp, increase dmg reduction by 15%,
at 25%hp, increase dmg reduction by 20%,

Counter-Attack Specialist – reduce incoming damage while under the effects of retaliation (~15-20% dmg reduction), increase damage caused by retaliation.

Ultrajoe.8674:

TheGuy.3568:

Ultrajoe.8674:

Speaking purely from the WvW perspective, Spiked Armor is still fun even after the nerf. I would be sad to see it go, personally.

You have to put it in perspective. Compared to defy pain it just doesn’t add up as a 30 point trait. In most builds cross class it will not hold it’s weight. I use it too but I am not worried about losing it. As a trait it has no real place in the line. Half the lower traits are more useful simply due to the way the class is designed. I am not saying it can not be used but that it’s time for it to go in place of a true grand master worthy defensive trait.

Think about the first response moving it to 5 points.

I contest this, though. In any multi-target situation the skill will deal thousands of damage and will be easily triggered every cooldown, for a marvelous uptime and a nice fat chunk of hurt. Even nerfed, Retaliation is incredibly fun and combined with ‘Empowered’ it will even make itself stronger! As a minor trait it would grant us far too much for simply spending points, and make the defensive tree stronger than it already is. I also don’t think it’s underwhelming for a grandmaster trait. It’s passive and situational, but it’s also very useful in the cases it was intended for. I would counsel that, if at all, it should be moved down a tier to free up a grandmaster slot.

What would you replace it with, incidentally, if it was removed from grandmaster?

A little break down about retal. Strong single hit skills will not maximize retal. Condition specs not running rabid will make the trigger intermittent. Please read my OP about “Empowered”. Retal no longer hits hard enough to be a true defensive dps deterrent ie, “I wont hit you because I fear retaliation” . As a defensive trait ti will not keep us in the fight an longer. It does not mitigate damage at all. 5 second up time would require that to fully utilize the skill you get hit during those 5 seconds. Due to our weak sustainability this is counter intuitive. A 30 point defensive trait should be a 30 point defensive trait that improves defense.

Hmm, replace. 2 things come to mind that would make sense but that is up for debate. I am not a dev and I rarely get the full extent of their logic. That being said. I would suggest replacing retal with protection. My logic is defy pain works as a last minute life saver. In this role it does well. Defense line needs a passive defense trait with a strong up time. Beside the stat points the only mitigation skill with a strong up time is Adrenal Health.

I figure a trait that gives 10 seconds of Protection after receiving a critical hit with a 20 second icd would be fine. A trait that granted protection for 15 seconds when you hit 50% life with a 30 second icd would also work.

The other option is tie it all into adrenaline. The trait that makes the most sense to me is base damage reduction tied into adrenaline gain and keeping it. So a trait where you receive 6% less damage for each bar of adrenaline you have seems to make the most sense to me. This provides good counter play to cleansing ire as it would require you to lose that damage reduction in order to wipe conditions.

TheGuy.3568:

A little break down about retal. Strong single hit skills will not maximize retal. Condition specs not running rabid will make the trigger intermittent. Please read my OP about “Empowered”. Retal no longer hits hard enough to be a true defensive dps deterrent ie, “I wont hit you because I fear retaliation” . As a defensive trait ti will not keep us in the fight an longer. It does not mitigate damage at all. 5 second up time would require that to fully utilize the skill you get hit during those 5 seconds. Due to our weak sustainability this is counter intuitive. A 30 point defensive trait should be a 30 point defensive trait that improves defense.

I concede your point, it is not an attractive defensive trait, which makes it inappropriate for the Defense tree grandmaster slot. It might be a valid tactics pick at Master, but that’s a different discussion altogether.

I myself am less keen for protection, I don’t see it as a Warrior class feature and it would be our only source of the buff. I prefer toughness and big health pools, well healed, over protection. It just strikes me as a Guardian thing. They’re the guys who go in for fancy magic shields, warriors just die kitten their own merit. I see block as a far more warrior-style form of damage mitigation, or applying weakness to our foes. Perhaps enemy critical hits can trigger one of those in an appropriate fashion? My objection is based purely in preference and my sense of what makes a warrior, protection just doesn’t seem like a part of our kit, mechanically or stylistically.

Edit: ‘Hard’, and then the word ‘on’, triggers kitten. I am amused and bemused.

That trait should not be gated behind the enemy hitting critical hits.