Guild Wars 2

Why is Spiked Armor weaker then other classes minor ‘5’ traits?

Example here…

Guardian
Tier Adept Type Minor
Vigorous Precision
Gain 5 seconds of vigor when you deliver a critical hit. This effect can only trigger once every 5 seconds.

Warrior
Tier Grandmaster Type Major
Spiked Armor
Gain 5 seconds of retaliation when struck by a critical hit. Cannot trigger more than once every 15 seconds.

Isn’t there something wrong with this picture? Spiked Armor is so weak comparingly to this trait it doesn’t even make sense, both are toughness traits, either something should be done to fix and improve spiked armor, or traits like Vigorous Precision should be moved into their respective major grand-master trait alongside altruistic healing.

Here is my idea.

Spiked Armor
Gain 5 seconds of protection and retaliation when you deliver a critical melee hit. This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.

Would be an interesting dynamic, but then you would have people like me rolling around in builds like 0 10 30 0 0 30, running around with zerker builds with 50% protection uptime and still blapping kids.

Unsuspecting Foe, Sure Footed, Last Stand, Spiked Armor, Warriors Sprint(swap out for signet mastery if facing heavy condition build teams), Mobile Strikes, Burst Mastery, the amount of QQ’ing would reach exponential amounts.

galandor.1059:

Would be an interesting dynamic, but then you would have people like me rolling around in builds like 0 10 30 0 0 30, running around with zerker builds with 50% protection uptime and still blapping kids.

Hey, any class can do that. Rangers can go around in 50% full protection and regeneration and still blap kids.

Yeah, but people are used to it by now, Warrior would get it and the masses would QQ. I refer you to the ongoing 9 page thread of the Mace-Shield/GS OP thread.

Oh, and don’t forget the 50% uptime on retal that would punish anyone attacking you, that mixed with protection up half the time would be so lol.

galandor.1059:

Yeah, but people are used to it by now, Warrior would get it and the masses would QQ. I refer you to the ongoing 9 page thread of the Mace-Shield/GS OP thread.

That is probably going to get nerfed, just like Tactical strike did. I am offering ideas for when that happens because I know how the QQ train works.

Move it to minor 5 trait. Just..do…it..

Eh, spike armor sucks, but it’s okay because Defy Pain is good.

Oh, to make spike armor viable? A 100% uptime passive, with a somewhat weaker retal effect.

Dand.8231:

Eh, spike armor sucks, but it’s okay because Defy Pain is good.

Oh, to make spike armor viable? A 100% uptime passive, with a somewhat weaker retal effect.

Other classes had their grandmaster traits improved, its terrible compared to the other ones.

Daecollo.9578:

Why is Spiked Armor weaker then other classes minor ‘5’ traits?

Example here…

Guardian
Tier Adept Type Minor
Vigorous Precision
Gain 5 seconds of vigor when you deliver a critical hit. This effect can only trigger once every 5 seconds.

Warrior
Tier Grandmaster Type Major
Spiked Armor
Gain 5 seconds of retaliation when struck by a critical hit. Cannot trigger more than once every 15 seconds.

Isn’t there something wrong with this picture? Spiked Armor is so weak comparingly to this trait it doesn’t even make sense, both are toughness traits, either something should be done to fix and improve spiked armor, or traits like Vigorous Precision should be moved into their respective major grand-master trait alongside altruistic healing.

Here is my idea.

Spiked Armor
Gain 5 seconds of protection and retaliation when you deliver a critical melee hit. This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.

You want 5 seconds of protection and retal whenever you deal a critical melee crit, on a 10 second cooldown?

…….

…and a pony – have to have a pony.

So the idea about giving 5s Protection on crit with a 10s ICD wasn’t shot down by enough people, making you think that it was actually too weak?

Because that idea was overpowered, this is even more overpowered. Protection comboes extremely well with Retaliation, and you want to give us 50% uptime on both?

Trust me, if we could get something like this, the meta would shift overnight from being zerker-centric to being Boon Duration-centric with the goal of achieving permanent Protection and Retaliation.

And what’s worse, the current meta already goes 20 into Defense for Cleansing Ire, so it would barely change. Heck, you would probably see non-hammer builds running 0/10/30/0/30. Or something like 0/20/30/0/20. I know I would go for the latter.

Grandmaster traits are suppost to be powerful, other classes have grandmaster traits that can completely change the class and your saying thakittens OP.

The trait is called SPIKED ARMOR…

Armor = Protection.
Spikes = Retaliation.

I don’t see how it seems OP, it can only proc off melee hits, and to be honest we need to be able to survive in melee anyways.

Rangers get protection every time they dodge… along with evasion recharge and vigor as well as easy regeneration.

Anything with class and flavor gets immediately shut down… can’t believe anyone these days.

Daecollo.9578:

Grandmaster traits are suppost to be powerful, other classes have grandmaster traits that can completely change the class and your saying thakittens OP.

The trait is called SPIKED ARMOR…

Armor = Protection.
Spikes = Retaliation.

Well tell me, would you be against just simply lowering the ICD on the current Spiked Armor to 10s?

I don’t see how it seems OP, it can only proc off melee hits, and to be honest we need to be able to survive in melee anyways.

Rangers get protection every time they dodge… along with evasion recharge and vigor as well as easy regeneration.

And Eles heal when they dodge. And Thieves get Swiftness. And Warriors deal damage.

None of those warrant dodging at an inappropriate time.

You can say this about half of the GM traits in this game. What else is new? It took you 12 months to notice that there is no actual correspondence between the level of the trait and its power…

Daecollo.9578:

Dand.8231:

Eh, spike armor sucks, but it’s okay because Defy Pain is good.

Oh, to make spike armor viable? A 100% uptime passive, with a somewhat weaker retal effect.

Other classes had their grandmaster traits improved, its terrible compared to the other ones.

Daecollo, dont get me wrong, spiked armor is fairly underwhelming, and I’d love to see it replaced.

That being said, your ideas are kitten crazy. The concepts not bad, but your numbers are always INSANE! I’m glad you’re not a balance dev, or there’d be only 1 class in this game.

Dand.8231:

Daecollo.9578:

Dand.8231:

Eh, spike armor sucks, but it’s okay because Defy Pain is good.

Oh, to make spike armor viable? A 100% uptime passive, with a somewhat weaker retal effect.

Other classes had their grandmaster traits improved, its terrible compared to the other ones.

Daecollo, dont get me wrong, spiked armor is fairly underwhelming, and I’d love to see it replaced.

That being said, your ideas are kitten crazy. The concepts not bad, but your numbers are always INSANE! I’m glad you’re not a balance dev, or there’d be only 1 class in this game.

Whats so insane about it? You have to get references or I just won’t believe you. I am comparing its power to a MINOR trait, which has more power to a GRANDMASTER trait.

I gave it the power a GRANDMASTER trait should have, COMPARED to a minor trait.

Daecollo.9578:

Dand.8231:

Daecollo.9578:

Dand.8231:

Eh, spike armor sucks, but it’s okay because Defy Pain is good.

Oh, to make spike armor viable? A 100% uptime passive, with a somewhat weaker retal effect.

Other classes had their grandmaster traits improved, its terrible compared to the other ones.

Daecollo, dont get me wrong, spiked armor is fairly underwhelming, and I’d love to see it replaced.

That being said, your ideas are kitten crazy. The concepts not bad, but your numbers are always INSANE! I’m glad you’re not a balance dev, or there’d be only 1 class in this game.

Whats so insane about it? You have to get references or I just won’t believe you. I am comparing its power to a MINOR trait, which has more power to a GRANDMASTER trait.

I gave it the power a GRANDMASTER trait should have, COMPARED to a minor trait.

The guard minor trait lets you easily have 95% VIGOR uptime. Yeah that probably should come down to 5 duration 10 CD or something. It’s not a good reason to start making such powerful PROTECTION traits for a different class. You’re still comparing apples and oranges here. Not even that, you’re comparing cross class and cross boon.

I dont care if you believe me or not, especially since what im saying really is just my opinion, not a hard fact of any kind…. but generally, IMO, your ideas tend to be over the top, numerically.

It probably doesnt help that you’re… ahem…. “overly vocal” about pushing your buff warrior(!) agenda either.

Dand.8231:

Daecollo.9578:

Dand.8231:

Daecollo.9578:

Dand.8231:

Eh, spike armor sucks, but it’s okay because Defy Pain is good.

Oh, to make spike armor viable? A 100% uptime passive, with a somewhat weaker retal effect.

Other classes had their grandmaster traits improved, its terrible compared to the other ones.

Daecollo, dont get me wrong, spiked armor is fairly underwhelming, and I’d love to see it replaced.

That being said, your ideas are kitten crazy. The concepts not bad, but your numbers are always INSANE! I’m glad you’re not a balance dev, or there’d be only 1 class in this game.

Whats so insane about it? You have to get references or I just won’t believe you. I am comparing its power to a MINOR trait, which has more power to a GRANDMASTER trait.

I gave it the power a GRANDMASTER trait should have, COMPARED to a minor trait.

The guard minor trait lets you easily have 95% VIGOR uptime. Yeah that probably should come down to 5 duration 10 CD or something. It’s not a good reason to start making such powerful PROTECTION traits for a different class. You’re still comparing apples and oranges here. Not even that, you’re comparing cross class and cross boon.

I dont care if you believe me or not, especially since what im saying really is just my opinion, not a hard fact of any kind…. but generally, IMO, your ideas tend to be over the top, numerically.

It probably doesnt help that you’re… ahem…. “overly vocal” about pushing your buff warrior(!) agenda either.

With a little boon duration which a lot of them use, its 120-150% uptime.

I’m comparing traits, if you don’t like it please don’t post in my thread. The proof is there.

Hey, Daecollo wants another way to get 100% Protection uptime (when boon stacking). Surprise, surprise.

Iavra.8510:

Hey, Daecollo wants another way to get 100% Protection uptime (when boon stacking). Surprise, surprise.

Another way. O.o

I think warriors should have more acces to retaliation, guardians are protection right, well they are more a tank class, warriors are mored damage dealers, they should have more acces to retaliation.

This trait cd should be reduced.

Fenrir.5493:

I think warriors should have more acces to retaliation, guardians are protection right, well they are more a tank class, warriors are mored damage dealers, they should have more acces to retaliation.

This trait cd should be reduced.

To no cooldown.

Daecollo.9578:

I’m comparing traits, if you don’t like it please don’t post in my thread.

So you dont want any disagreements, critiquing, or alternate suggestions? Just mindless yes-men who agree with you every step of the way?

Daecollo.9578:

Fenrir.5493:

I think warriors should have more acces to retaliation, guardians are protection right, well they are more a tank class, warriors are mored damage dealers, they should have more acces to retaliation.

This trait cd should be reduced.

To no cooldown.

Haha, that woulg be too much but skills like shield stance could grant retaliation, sword and mace block , f1 gs instead of fury, there is a lot of potentian, on my mark shout, endure pain, signet of rage, bulls charge or kick.

Then with that people would stop to go all out attack on warriors like is happening now that warriors dont have stealth, evasion etc like other classes.

Daecollo.9578:

Gain 5 seconds of protection and retaliation when you deliver a critical melee hit. This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.

How about this:

Gain 30 seconds of protection, regeneration and retaliation and remove all conditions every time healing signet ticks. This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.

Perfectly balanced.

Dand.8231:

Daecollo.9578:

I’m comparing traits, if you don’t like it please don’t post in my thread.

So you dont want any disagreements, critiquing, or alternate suggestions? Just mindless yes-men who agree with you every step of the way?

You offered nothing.

You pretty much said “It would be OP, apples and oranges!” I can compare RIFT and WoW because they are similar games, just like I can compare Guardian and Warrior because they are similarish classes.

If you offer something, offer a way to improve the skill, not down my way.

Daecollo.9578:

If you offer something, offer a way to improve the skill, not down my way.

First I offered some advice on improving the skill, passive low-key retal.

Then I (not-so) subtly offered you some advice about you going wild with a new buff-warrior thread every other day.

What else do you want here? Fashion advice? Lime green mixed with royal purple. Financial advice? Pyramid Shemes and risky hedge funds. An MVP this upcoming season? Mark Sanchez, of course. Dating advice? Settle for someone with a pulse.

Aaaand I’m all out of sarcasm for today

Spiked armor is a great trait, integrated in many of my builds. This gives 50% retal uptime with a little bit of boon duration. Add in a bit from a guardian or whatever and you have 100% uptime, retaliation is still incredibly strong. Especially in WvW. It even helped me win a lot of 1on1 fights in WvW.

It is the best Grandmaster trait we have for Defense.

MiLkZz.4789:

Spiked armor is a great trait, integrated in many of my builds. This gives 50% retal uptime with a little bit of boon duration. Add in a bit from a guardian or whatever and you have 100% uptime, retaliation is still incredibly strong. Especially in WvW. It even helped me win a lot of 1on1 fights in WvW.

It is the best Grandmaster trait we have for Defense.

Still has a very long cd and i have used it with boon duration it really does not help that much.

MiLkZz.4789:

Spiked armor is a great trait, integrated in many of my builds. This gives 50% retal uptime with a little bit of boon duration. Add in a bit from a guardian or whatever and you have 100% uptime, retaliation is still incredibly strong. Especially in WvW. It even helped me win a lot of 1on1 fights in WvW.

It is the best Grandmaster trait we have for Defense.

I hope u trolling.. and Noobs vs Noobs is the last thing we care about when its comes to balance

Scoobaniec.9561:

MiLkZz.4789:

Spiked armor is a great trait, integrated in many of my builds. This gives 50% retal uptime with a little bit of boon duration. Add in a bit from a guardian or whatever and you have 100% uptime, retaliation is still incredibly strong. Especially in WvW. It even helped me win a lot of 1on1 fights in WvW.

It is the best Grandmaster trait we have for Defense.

I hope u trolling.. and Noobs vs Noobs is the last thing we care about when its comes to balance

I am not alone on this matter, even the Red Guard warrior couldn’t get over how powerful this skill actually is. I think you guys are underestimating this one. 50% uptime is strong and retal counters fast hitting builds. It helps to kill mesmers and engineers.

I have seen retal numbers popping up on my screen dealing more damage than I could do in 10second window just with my hammer.

It is the best grandmaster skill you can take in the Defense line at the moment.

MiLkZz.4789:

Scoobaniec.9561:

MiLkZz.4789:

Spiked armor is a great trait, integrated in many of my builds. This gives 50% retal uptime with a little bit of boon duration. Add in a bit from a guardian or whatever and you have 100% uptime, retaliation is still incredibly strong. Especially in WvW. It even helped me win a lot of 1on1 fights in WvW.

It is the best Grandmaster trait we have for Defense.

I hope u trolling.. and Noobs vs Noobs is the last thing we care about when its comes to balance

I am not alone on this matter, even the Red Guard warrior couldn’t get over how powerful this skill actually is. I think you guys are underestimating this one. 50% uptime is strong and retal counters fast hitting builds. It helps to kill mesmers and engineers.

I have seen retal numbers popping up on my screen dealing more damage than I could do in 10second window just with my hammer.

It is the best grandmaster skill you can take in the Defense line at the moment.

Lol…..

MiLkZz.4789:

Scoobaniec.9561:

MiLkZz.4789:

Spiked armor is a great trait, integrated in many of my builds. This gives 50% retal uptime with a little bit of boon duration. Add in a bit from a guardian or whatever and you have 100% uptime, retaliation is still incredibly strong. Especially in WvW. It even helped me win a lot of 1on1 fights in WvW.

It is the best Grandmaster trait we have for Defense.

I hope u trolling.. and Noobs vs Noobs is the last thing we care about when its comes to balance

I am not alone on this matter, even the Red Guard warrior couldn’t get over how powerful this skill actually is. I think you guys are underestimating this one. 50% uptime is strong and retal counters fast hitting builds. It helps to kill mesmers and engineers.

I have seen retal numbers popping up on my screen dealing more damage than I could do in 10second window just with my hammer.

It is the best grandmaster skill you can take in the Defense line at the moment.

I don’t think its ever deserves to be in master tier

Just the fact:
its costs 30 points to into defense line to pick up
Its does give retal when getting hit by [b]critical[b/] hit
Retal last for 5sec on 15cd
Even with 30% boon duration from tactic its alst for 6,5 – hardly worth investing into boon duration just for it (yep i used calculator ; ) )

I don’t think i should compare that trait from different classes but their adapt ones are currently much better than our grandmaster – something is wrong in that. And in NvN i don’t need that trait either – perma retal coming from guardians making this trait even more useless

Anyways going to sleep. I feel like a kitten

Gain 5 seconds of retaliation and protection when struck by a critical hit. Cannot trigger more than once every 15 seconds.

This would be nice since it’s Defense. If Anet give us this, I have nothing to complain.

Or go with my idea and add a penalty.

like -25% – -50% Endurance Regeneration.

Warriors don’t have a problem with retaliation since they got no fast-hitting attacks and high hp-pool to offset the damage. No wonder you can’t see just how powerful retal is.

Iavra.8510:

Warriors don’t have a problem with retaliation since they got no fast-hitting attacks and high hp-pool to offset the damage. No wonder you can’t see just how powerful retal is.

……..

Go back to your own class’s board.

You lost me on the “you deliver a critical melee hit”

I was expecting something more original than yet another “when you crit” effect.

If it is a grandmaster major trait in the defense line it should be defensive (protection was nice) and trigger on a OMG! situation, not when you are killing a bunny.

Mesket.5728:

You lost me on the “you deliver a critical melee hit”

I was expecting something more original than yet another “when you crit” effect.

If it is a grandmaster major trait in the defense line it should be defensive (protection was nice) and trigger on a OMG! situation, not when you are killing a bunny.

Hey, Why not offer your own?

Its nice to be a critic, but when your not giving me any juice it just seems like your downing me.

Daecollo.9578:

galandor.1059:

Would be an interesting dynamic, but then you would have people like me rolling around in builds like 0 10 30 0 0 30, running around with zerker builds with 50% protection uptime and still blapping kids.

Hey, any class can do that. Rangers can go around in 50% full protection and regeneration and still blap kids.

Is blap the new word kids use these days? I like to keep up to date with the lingo. :P

I don’t know. I think it’s an ok trait. But not grandmaster level. If I were to change it I’d put it as 8 seconds when struck by a critical, otherwise, 6 seconds when struck by a normal attack. Or maybe somewhere in between the two.
Even with +60% boon duration I barely notice this popping
(30 in tactics and 30 from runes)

I’m gonna admit that spiked armor sucks but what you propose is BS.

project 5 sec CD 20 – 25 sec would sound ok for me.

How traits work:

If any other class
No CD, low CD 5-10 seconds.

If Warrior
15-25 second CD.

Punny.9210:

I’m gonna admit that spiked armor sucks but what you propose is BS.

project 5 sec CD 20 – 25 sec would sound ok for me.

I just going to say to you one thing, and i hope you research, “Prismatic Understanding” of mesmers, then come back and repeat that again.

I could recomed that this trait applies protection every time the warrior blocks or gains immunity and this will aply protection at the end of those status, it can be too every time the warrior uses a stance.

Edit it also could work like prismatic undersanting but instead give aegis,protection, or retliation every second while blocking or while using a stance.

Fenrir.5493:

Punny.9210:

I’m gonna admit that spiked armor sucks but what you propose is BS.

project 5 sec CD 20 – 25 sec would sound ok for me.

I just going to say to you one thing, and i hope you research, “Prismatic Understanding” of mesmers, then come back and repeat that again.

I could recomed that this trait applies protection every time the warrior blocks or gains immunity and this will aply protection at the end of those status, it can be too every time the warrior uses a stance.

Edit it also could work like prismatic undersanting but instead give aegis,protection, or retliation every second while blocking or while using a stance.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deceptive_Evasion

Stuffs good IMo, I love the retal and it is a pretty low cd. Vigor isnt as good as Retal

Phate.4871:

Stuffs good IMo, I love the retal and it is a pretty low cd. Vigor isnt as good as Retal

I could really argue against that… in many many many ways, especially in pve.

We don’t need more of the boon called kittenation. It’s still the stupidest kitten ever. Warriors aren’t really the problem when it comes to Retaliation but giving more of this absolutely bonkers boon is not a good idea.

shenhua.2186:

We don’t need more of the boon called kittenation. It’s still the stupidest kitten ever. Warriors aren’t really the problem when it comes to Retaliation but giving more of this absolutely bonkers boon is not a good idea.

Problem is, the game is designed around that boon. To bunker you need protection, its an extra set of armor.

Daecollo.9578:

Fenrir.5493:

Punny.9210:

I’m gonna admit that spiked armor sucks but what you propose is BS.

project 5 sec CD 20 – 25 sec would sound ok for me.

I just going to say to you one thing, and i hope you research, “Prismatic Understanding” of mesmers, then come back and repeat that again.

I could recomed that this trait applies protection every time the warrior blocks or gains immunity and this will aply protection at the end of those status, it can be too every time the warrior uses a stance.

Edit it also could work like prismatic undersanting but instead give aegis,protection, or retliation every second while blocking or while using a stance.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deceptive_Evasion

What with that?