Guild Wars 2

With the upcoming nerfs to how the adrenaline works with cleansing ire (if it misses, consumes adrenaline. cleansing ire not proccing when missing remains the same) it’s kind of obvious that the players would be even more reluctant to move away from the all-too-common X/X+ longbow builds that are rampant right now.

cleansing ire remains the only reliably constant condition removal (without going deep into shout builds) without fully preventing them (berserker stance) or removing all of them (signet of stamina)

nerfing adrenaline/cleansing ire combo like that makes it even more imperative that warriors pick up long bow for reliable condition removal off of cleansing ire.

I personally think that anet should move away from the current long bow meta but with this patch, it’s going to be really set in stone.

any class thats prepared should always bring a weapon that has condi removal(if there class has one)
i just keep a LB in my inventory and replace my axe/mace or GS with it when i know im gonna need condi removal

Or you could look into other means of condition removal, primarily Shake It Off, Shrug It Off, and Runes of the Trooper, losing Cleansing Ire is not going to be the end of the world. Berserker’s Stance negates condition application, and if the condition is applied by way of a physical projectile or hit (pistol/rifle auto attack/condition skills) the Shield #5 will block it from ever being applied. With all of the fast attack rate weapons we posses we could also try sigils of purity, which remove conditions on hit. Realistically, there are plenty of options, you just have to look.

Xytl.8659:

Or you could look into other means of condition removal, primarily Shake It Off, Shrug It Off, and Runes of the Trooper, losing Cleansing Ire is not going to be the end of the world. Berserker’s Stance negates condition application, and if the condition is applied by way of a physical projectile or hit (pistol/rifle auto attack/condition skills) the Shield #5 will block it from ever being applied. With all of the fast attack rate weapons we posses we could also try sigils of purity, which remove conditions on hit. Realistically, there are plenty of options, you just have to look.

Those methods you mentioned will mean a massive loss of DPS.

That being said, the new Brawler’s Recovery looks like it will be a decent alternative. Also, hopefully these changes will make the class more skillful and eventually people will stop constantly hating on the class. I do think Stances should be looked at, I prefer the GW1 way of doing things but it would involve many changes to CD’s/Duration.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Xytl.8659:

Or you could look into other means of condition removal, primarily Shake It Off, Shrug It Off, and Runes of the Trooper, losing Cleansing Ire is not going to be the end of the world. Berserker’s Stance negates condition application, and if the condition is applied by way of a physical projectile or hit (pistol/rifle auto attack/condition skills) the Shield #5 will block it from ever being applied. With all of the fast attack rate weapons we posses we could also try sigils of purity, which remove conditions on hit. Realistically, there are plenty of options, you just have to look.

Those methods you mentioned will mean a massive loss of DPS.

That being said, the new Brawler’s Recovery looks like it will be a decent alternative. Also, hopefully these changes will make the class more skillful and eventually people will stop constantly hating on the class. I do think Stances should be looked at, I prefer the GW1 way of doing things but it would involve many changes to CD’s/Duration.

Brawler’s Recovery will be decent, but it won’t be better then CI. Thus, you will only use it if you don’t mind being at a disadvantage to other builds.

Also, the warrior hate will never die. Look at thieves. They were a plague in WvW. Now, if you so much as look at them, they die. Only the skillful thieves remain very challenging, due to their cheesy but effective mechanics. The thief-hate is as strong as it ever was though.

Cygnus.6903:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Xytl.8659:

Or you could look into other means of condition removal, primarily Shake It Off, Shrug It Off, and Runes of the Trooper, losing Cleansing Ire is not going to be the end of the world. Berserker’s Stance negates condition application, and if the condition is applied by way of a physical projectile or hit (pistol/rifle auto attack/condition skills) the Shield #5 will block it from ever being applied. With all of the fast attack rate weapons we posses we could also try sigils of purity, which remove conditions on hit. Realistically, there are plenty of options, you just have to look.

Those methods you mentioned will mean a massive loss of DPS.

That being said, the new Brawler’s Recovery looks like it will be a decent alternative. Also, hopefully these changes will make the class more skillful and eventually people will stop constantly hating on the class. I do think Stances should be looked at, I prefer the GW1 way of doing things but it would involve many changes to CD’s/Duration.

Brawler’s Recovery will be decent, but it won’t be better then CI. Thus, you will only use it if you don’t mind being at a disadvantage to other builds.

Also, the warrior hate will never die. Look at thieves. They were a plague in WvW. Now, if you so much as look at them, they die. Only the skillful thieves remain very challenging, due to their cheesy but effective mechanics. The thief-hate is as strong as it ever was though.

Thieve’s are still one of the best roaming classes.

Also I know it won’t be as strong AS CI, but you’ll be able to run something more DPS oriented and have enough removal to not be instantly overwhelmed so you can put those 4 points in another line.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Thieve’s are still one of the best roaming classes.

Also I know it won’t be as strong AS CI, but you’ll be able to run something more DPS oriented and have enough removal to not be instantly overwhelmed so you can put those 4 points in another line.

Like what? Seriously? Let’s theorycraft here, and compare that to the old CI builds.

I can not think of a build that would mean that much of a DPS increase to account for the loss of survivability. Don’t forget, 4 in Defense also give you Dogged March/Sure Footed/Missile Reflection and Adrenal Healing.

Then, if you spend 1 more point in Defense, you get 150+ extra power. Not to mention anything/Hammer will want 6 points in Defense, always.

If you do get condibombed, that 1 condi clear is not gonna help you that much, so the next 5 seconds you will be struggling.

But you might be thinking something like 6/0/2/0/6?

Edit: about the thieves, they are still really good. But you have to know what you’re doing now, and know it well. So when people get owned by a thief, they should acknowledge that they got outplayed. This does not counteract the hatred, as it won’t with warriors when they become more ‘skillful’ to play.

Cygnus.6903:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Xytl.8659:

Or you could look into other means of condition removal, primarily Shake It Off, Shrug It Off, and Runes of the Trooper, losing Cleansing Ire is not going to be the end of the world. Berserker’s Stance negates condition application, and if the condition is applied by way of a physical projectile or hit (pistol/rifle auto attack/condition skills) the Shield #5 will block it from ever being applied. With all of the fast attack rate weapons we posses we could also try sigils of purity, which remove conditions on hit. Realistically, there are plenty of options, you just have to look.

Those methods you mentioned will mean a massive loss of DPS.

That being said, the new Brawler’s Recovery looks like it will be a decent alternative. Also, hopefully these changes will make the class more skillful and eventually people will stop constantly hating on the class. I do think Stances should be looked at, I prefer the GW1 way of doing things but it would involve many changes to CD’s/Duration.

Brawler’s Recovery will be decent, but it won’t be better then CI. Thus, you will only use it if you don’t mind being at a disadvantage to other builds.

Also, the warrior hate will never die. Look at thieves. They were a plague in WvW. Now, if you so much as look at them, they die. Only the skillful thieves remain very challenging, due to their cheesy but effective mechanics. The thief-hate is as strong as it ever was though.

I thought it was the stealth-spam and the blind-spam that people hated…

ShakeyStorm.7180:

I thought it was the stealth-spam and the blind-spam that people hated…

Thieves. What did I say?

The warrior issue is related to what game designers view as risk-versus reward. I recall playing RA2 as a kid and they had these dumb zeppelins. They flew very, very slowly but if they reached an enemy base they would devastate it. Of course, quickly players learned how to pick them off and they were never much used owing to how readily they were countered. The game designers didn’t get it though, because they played less and saw it as high risk, high reward.

You can see the same sort of trade offs going on in GW2. Warriors are readily mobile, but their opponents are mostly ranged or ranged/hybrid with lots of control and conditions. They made a huge mistake allowing conditions to ignore damage mitigation in the game concept. Classes such as necros, engies, mesmers, and even thieves use conditions and condition effects to decimate their opponents. Worse, conditions and condition effects (blind/fear) are lumped together. It creates too much of a binary effect. Either:

1. The warrior can reach the opponent and will deal high amounts of melee damage
or
2. The ranged opponent will condition spam the warrior and CC them/evade to allow the conditions to run their course

There’s not enough middle ground. Having conditions being cleansable is akin to healing in this game. You cannot “cleanse” a melee attack but you can do it to conditions. But, it’s an all or nothing affair. This is why warriors are now stacked to the hilt with condition removal and avoidance.

You can see the wheels churning a bit at Anet though. Look at their attempts to change the active on Signet of Might. They know warriors are constantly getting blocked by bunker specs and condi’d to death. So they changed zerker stance and now are attempting to get warriors to use Signet of Might. The problem is that it’s not like 6 seconds of block-proofing will solve warriors’ issues. Taking Signet of Might means opportunity cost in losing stability, condi immunity, or perhaps a complete condi cleanse.

The condi issue pigeon holes warrior specs and prevents them from taking alternatives, such as Signet of Might. Conditions bend the entire PvP gameplay around one mechanic and the rest of the game mechanics just end up being something you have to live with rather than spec to counter.

Cygnus.6903:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Thieve’s are still one of the best roaming classes.

Also I know it won’t be as strong AS CI, but you’ll be able to run something more DPS oriented and have enough removal to not be instantly overwhelmed so you can put those 4 points in another line.

Like what? Seriously? Let’s theorycraft here, and compare that to the old CI builds.

I can not think of a build that would mean that much of a DPS increase to account for the loss of survivability. Don’t forget, 4 in Defense also give you Dogged March/Sure Footed/Missile Reflection and Adrenal Healing.

Then, if you spend 1 more point in Defense, you get 150+ extra power. Not to mention anything/Hammer will want 6 points in Defense, always.

If you do get condibombed, that 1 condi clear is not gonna help you that much, so the next 5 seconds you will be struggling.

But you might be thinking something like 6/0/2/0/6?

Edit: about the thieves, they are still really good. But you have to know what you’re doing now, and know it well. So when people get owned by a thief, they should acknowledge that they got outplayed. This does not counteract the hatred, as it won’t with warriors when they become more ‘skillful’ to play.

I would say that Axe/GS or Rifle/GS would stand to benefit the most. Running 4/4/0/0/6 will let you (in theory) let you hit hard enough to quickly burst someone down and with Hoelbrak runes, a purity/generosity sigil, and Berserker’s Stance you should be able to mitigate enough condis to get get overwhelmed, especially if you bring Bull’s Charge and land all of your Riffle Butt’s/Shield Bashes. If the new Brawler’s Recovery has no ICD then there may even be a use for Runes of The Warrior. Of course, the best solution for the future would be a buff to Mending so you could run it with Restorative Strength.

I’m pretty tired of running builds that are in the middle of DPS and bunker and I hope these changes lead to us being able to run pure DPS without being stupidly easy to condi down.

Is this an improve all burst skills thread if not I ’ll say the usual: War is supposed to be weak to damage conditions. How hard does engi and thief struggle with conditions? That should be close to war even with superior vitality and healing. To the one that said you lose DPS by changing build YOU GAIN SOMETHING ELSE IN RETURN YOU USED THE SKILL POINTS.

Improve all burst skills to activated CI effectively that means hit or close to hit. Most people want the game to run around condi or power burst so making the non-dps traits,skills,gear and stats wanted will increase diversity in pvp or www, pve is so zerker dps oriented I can’t see bunker related is even considered. Glass canon should be 0 survival skills zerker traditional S/F ele is not glass canon they can still have good cleansing and damage mitigation try to make the same for war.

Sagat.3285:

Is this an improve all burst skills thread if not I ’ll say the usual: War is supposed to be weak to damage conditions. How hard does engi and thief struggle with conditions? That should be close to war even with superior vitality and healing. To the one that said you lose DPS by changing build YOU GAIN SOMETHING ELSE IN RETURN YOU USED THE SKILL POINTS.

Improve all burst skills to activated CI effectively that means hit or close to hit. Most people want the game to run around condi or power burst so making the non-dps traits,skills,gear and stats wanted will increase diversity in pvp or www, pve is so zerker dps oriented I can’t see bunker related is even considered. Glass canon should be 0 survival skills zerker traditional S/F ele is not glass canon they can still have good cleansing and damage mitigation try to make the same for war.

I spend around equal time on Engi and War these days and while yes Engi is also VERY weak to conditions I also have on average more skills at my disposal. If I play well even my glass DPS Engi can beat a condi Necro if I manage my CC correctly.

On Warrior, if you aren’t running a build with a bow + CI you’re literally as useful as a dead frog after your Zerker Stance ends. It’s not being weak to conditions, it’s a one sided slaughter. Also, now that missing a Burst means you lose your adrenaline some compensation may end up needing to happen to make other burst skills a tad more reliable or Mending needs to be buffed. It’s not cool to lock a class not only into one weapon but also one heal. War’s main appeal is diversity and while I don’t hate the changes they do in many ways stifle creativity. Every patch forces me into Hambow more and more.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Also, now that missing a Burst means you lose your adrenaline some compensation may end up needing to happen to make other burst skills a tad more reliable.

Exactly. Anet has been making animation for bursts more obvious as part of their general balance strategy for some time.

That’s fine, but it means “lose adrenaline on miss” is a real blow to weapons other than hammer and bow. The other bursts are easy to dodge if your opponent is paying attention, and then you have blinds, snares, etc. that really hinder a one-hit burst.

It’d be nice if they rolled back some of the animation and damage changes they’ve made to those bursts when they roll out losing adren on a miss.

Ironically, GS comes out ok. It didn’t get any animation or damage changes because no one really used that burst skill, and now it gets nicely buffed. Get axe and mace there too, maybe remove the root for sword, and all the burst skills should have a good risk/reward balance with the change on miss.

I think many ppl don’t realize how good ‘Brawlers recovery’ gonna be.

Beside being one of the best condi clears in game it will open up many new builds for warrior – most importantly it will free us from longbow.

Why Brawlers recovery >= Cleansing Ire
For ci we are talking about builds with LG of course.
Sustained cleansing
– Br is evey 5 sec. Noth said
– ci can be every 5sec if u land both burst all the time, and u have enough adrenalie, So in practice its much less. It can be a 2 clears every 10sec from just lg, but still need 2 bars…
Burst cleanse
– br can be 2 clear in 6 sec, if u swap right after being hit and then 5 sec later.
– ci in theroy is 3 clears from lg on full bar then swap and cleanse one more. All this takes about 4 sec. So 4 clear in 4 sec but…
1.U must land the 2nd burst – very unlkiy if any of the condi left on u are soft cc. And not gartnty anyhow
2.U must have 3 aderline bars – for me that’s rarely happns. It means u were saving up just for cleansing so u were gimpicking on ur dmg.
3.U must waste that aderline. Mayb u r not fighting on point and wanted that huge fire field somewhere else
4.U might get interpreted. Casting combustive shot takes times so if its very liky that the ones condi bursting planing to interupt as well

Get the point?

Hambow build will still be strong, coz its fit so well on conquest but we now have some other great options w/o sacrefing anything (as 4 in arms was mendatory anyhow)

Thaelias.7432:

Worse, conditions and condition effects (blind/fear) are lumped together.

I guess that many people feel overwhelmed by conditions because of the clumsy cleansing AI. I’d greatly appreciate if you could set up “condition cleansing order” on your own for every single cleansing ability.

Very often AI somehow hides the cruxial conditions to you between all the crap flying around. If you would be able to precisely select which condition is cleansed on the first spot you could improve so many builds a lot – making them actually viable.

If you’r playing a build depending on kiting your enemies you want to cleanse snares and immob first. If you are playing a squishy ranged dd you want to cleanse all the damage condis first (bleeding, poison etc.). If you build for regen then you might want to have poison cured soon. And so on. You could set up the “right” cleansing order for you personal playstyle.

At the moment there are only very few cleansing abilities that actually do the “right” thing in a specific situation. And you want to have a condi remove that cures serveral condition per use. I think that’s the biggest advantage CI has for warrior and why CI is almost mandatory for many player. You can easily cleanse three condis at a time.

Eiland.1405:

I think many ppl don’t realize how good ‘Brawlers recovery’ gonna be.

Beside being one of the best condi clears in game it will open up many new builds for warrior – most importantly it will free us from longbow.

Why Brawlers recovery >= Cleansing Ire
For ci we are talking about builds with LG of course.
Sustained cleansing
– Br is evey 5 sec. Noth said
– ci can be every 5sec if u land both burst all the time, and u have enough adrenalie, So in practice its much less. It can be a 2 clears every 10sec from just lg, but still need 2 bars…
Burst cleanse
– br can be 2 clear in 6 sec, if u swap right after being hit and then 5 sec later.
– ci in theroy is 3 clears from lg on full bar then swap and cleanse one more. All this takes about 4 sec. So 4 clear in 4 sec but…
1.U must land the 2nd burst – very unlkiy if any of the condi left on u are soft cc. And not gartnty anyhow
2.U must have 3 aderline bars – for me that’s rarely happns. It means u were saving up just for cleansing so u were gimpicking on ur dmg.
3.U must waste that aderline. Mayb u r not fighting on point and wanted that huge fire field somewhere else
4.U might get interpreted. Casting combustive shot takes times so if its very liky that the ones condi bursting planing to interupt as well

Get the point?

Hambow build will still be strong, coz its fit so well on conquest but we now have some other great options w/o sacrefing anything (as 4 in arms was mendatory anyhow)

i usually wouldn’t even respond to posts like this but your post is so full of fallacious thinking that i had to point some of them out.

‘br is every 5 sec, nuff said’
actually – you don’t always swap weapon whenever it’s up, just like you don’t use your adrenaline skills whenever they’re up.

’ – br can be 2 clear in 6 sec, if u swap right after being hit and then 5 sec later.’

with that sort of logic, cleansing ire can remove 6 condis in 6 seconds, since you can just fill up the adrenaline to full very easily within 5 seconds with burst mastery.

’ 1.U must land the 2nd burst – very unlkiy if any of the condi left on u are soft cc. And not gartnty anyhow’

this i will give to you. CI is not always reliable.

‘2.U must have 3 aderline bars’ no, you do not have to.

‘3.U must waste that aderline. ’ how are you ’wasting’ an adrenaline if you’re using the skill to do damage, while removing the condition?

‘4.U might get interpreted.’ i’m guessing you mean interrupted but that’s hardly ever an issue and if you do get interrupted, your condi removal is only delayed by a couple of seconds (you can even swap weapons for the other burst)

Bow is not necessary, if you go shout heal, for example. Cleansing ire could be not taken, if you want balanced stance + merciless hammer, but I prefer taking balanced stance + cleansing ire. The adrenaline gain is too good.
With new patch there will be more options.

Going to agree with Burr, we shouldn’t underestimate BR as an alternative.

Jae.5138:

Eiland.1405:

I think many ppl don’t realize how good ‘Brawlers recovery’ gonna be.

Beside being one of the best condi clears in game it will open up many new builds for warrior – most importantly it will free us from longbow.

Why Brawlers recovery >= Cleansing Ire
For ci we are talking about builds with LG of course.
Sustained cleansing
– Br is evey 5 sec. Noth said
– ci can be every 5sec if u land both burst all the time, and u have enough adrenalie, So in practice its much less. It can be a 2 clears every 10sec from just lg, but still need 2 bars…
Burst cleanse
– br can be 2 clear in 6 sec, if u swap right after being hit and then 5 sec later.
– ci in theroy is 3 clears from lg on full bar then swap and cleanse one more. All this takes about 4 sec. So 4 clear in 4 sec but…
1.U must land the 2nd burst – very unlkiy if any of the condi left on u are soft cc. And not gartnty anyhow
2.U must have 3 aderline bars – for me that’s rarely happns. It means u were saving up just for cleansing so u were gimpicking on ur dmg.
3.U must waste that aderline. Mayb u r not fighting on point and wanted that huge fire field somewhere else
4.U might get interpreted. Casting combustive shot takes times so if its very liky that the ones condi bursting planing to interupt as well

Get the point?

Hambow build will still be strong, coz its fit so well on conquest but we now have some other great options w/o sacrefing anything (as 4 in arms was mendatory anyhow)

i usually wouldn’t even respond to posts like this but your post is so full of fallacious thinking that i had to point some of them out.

‘br is every 5 sec, nuff said’
actually – you don’t always swap weapon whenever it’s up, just like you don’t use your adrenaline skills whenever they’re up.

’ – br can be 2 clear in 6 sec, if u swap right after being hit and then 5 sec later.’

with that sort of logic, cleansing ire can remove 6 condis in 6 seconds, since you can just fill up the adrenaline to full very easily within 5 seconds with burst mastery.

’ 1.U must land the 2nd burst – very unlkiy if any of the condi left on u are soft cc. And not gartnty anyhow’

this i will give to you. CI is not always reliable.

‘2.U must have 3 aderline bars’ no, you do not have to.

‘3.U must waste that aderline. ’ how are you ’wasting’ an adrenaline if you’re using the skill to do damage, while removing the condition?

‘4.U might get interpreted.’ i’m guessing you mean interrupted but that’s hardly ever an issue and if you do get interrupted, your condi removal is only delayed by a couple of seconds (you can even swap weapons for the other burst)

Here we go…

2. must have 3 bars – to cleanse 4 cond, of course u will cleanse with less then 3 bars but then u will cleanse 2 at most. coz after swap u will have less then 1 bar.
3. Again of course u don’t always waste it, but like in the example I gave u use your burst when u did not necessarily planned to just for cleansing fast, like eviscerating a clone or doing combustive shot not on point.
4. Yeah misspelled. but do u pvp? how is couple of seconds (5sec) is not a lot when u want to cleanse cond burst? bleed+torment+fire can hurt, a lot. so that couple of seconds can mean half ur HP bar.

I am not saying cleansing Ire is a bad trait, it’s f**ing OP. But just proving to you how br might be even better. (while taking both will prob mean condi immunity)

As has been suggested oh so many times before, CI would work better if it removed conditions as you build up adrenaline, say, a condition per bar gained.

Wouldn’t tie us to a single weapon and would fit in well with adrenaline being harder to build and maintain.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I would say that Axe/GS or Rifle/GS would stand to benefit the most. Running 4/4/0/0/6 will let you (in theory) let you hit hard enough to quickly burst someone down and with Hoelbrak runes, a purity/generosity sigil, and Berserker’s Stance you should be able to mitigate enough condis to get get overwhelmed, especially if you bring Bull’s Charge and land all of your Riffle Butt’s/Shield Bashes. If the new Brawler’s Recovery has no ICD then there may even be a use for Runes of The Warrior. Of course, the best solution for the future would be a buff to Mending so you could run it with Restorative Strength.

I’m pretty tired of running builds that are in the middle of DPS and bunker and I hope these changes lead to us being able to run pure DPS without being stupidly easy to condi down.

Maybe Rifle GS, because that had inaccurate burst skills anyway, but definitely not the Axe. Any Axe build will need adrenaline building, so if you don’t take Cleansing Ire, you must take another adrenaline building trait. Check them out, they are either very lackluster, or simply outclassed by other traits in the same line.

I think people are seriously underestimating how hard it will be to build up adrenaline fast enough to account for missed bursts, especially without utilities (which we need to survive).

I hardly ever play longbow builds, as in WvW you are not completely forced to do this thanks to food. I still take CI for the occasional cleanse, but the adrenaline building is equally important IMO. Trying to build up adrenaline without CI takes a very long time. And with all the random blocks/evades/blinds and what not flying around, adrenaline will be a serious issue after the patch.

And when Anet decides it’s a good idea to put torment on auto-attack, we will need the cleanses more then ever.

They need to add F2 skill for adrenaline somthink defensive like a shout or somthink so we can use CI when we need it without a LB.

Cygnus.6903:

Look at thieves. They were a plague in WvW. Now, if you so much as look at them, they die.

You can’t look at what can’t be seen. The “skilled” thieves simply stealth and burst attack when needed. A few use position bouncing (sword/dagger/steal/shadow step) but that will likely be gutted depending on the final play of the next ANet change.

You haven’t played a thief recently. They are actually very tanky if you run Shadow Arts (much like Warrior and Defense line). If you get hit, you reposition, cure your conditions and heal back up while invisible.

But yes, Warrior whining will never end because Warrior players take such offense from the forum trollz.

Artaz.3819:

Cygnus.6903:

Look at thieves. They were a plague in WvW. Now, if you so much as look at them, they die.

You can’t look at what can’t be seen. The “skilled” thieves simply stealth and burst attack when needed. A few use position bouncing (sword/dagger/steal/shadow step) but that will likely be gutted depending on the final play of the next ANet change.

You haven’t played a thief recently. They are actually very tanky if you run Shadow Arts (much like Warrior and Defense line). If you get hit, you reposition, cure your conditions and heal back up while invisible.

But yes, Warrior whining will never end because Warrior players take such offense from the forum trollz.

I believe there is a difference between tanky and being able to sustain oneself. Like I said, a good thief is still very hard to beat because of their cheesy mechanics (teleports, evades and stealth). But if I manage a single chain (3 attacks) on my hammer warrior, it is a guarantueed kill (2900 power without might and sigil of intelligence hurts). Hell, a single well timed whirlwind can take out half their HP.

Cygnus.6903:

I believe there is a difference between tanky and being able to sustain oneself. Like I said, a good thief is still very hard to beat because of their cheesy mechanics (teleports, evades and stealth). But if I manage a single chain (3 attacks) on my hammer warrior, it is a guarantueed kill (2900 power without might and sigil of intelligence hurts). Hell, a single well timed whirlwind can take out half their HP.

So on one side of the coin, stealth, evade teleport is cheesy. And on the other you can take half their HP with 1/4s activated ability. Which side are you arguing for?

By the way, I know the latter is false and an exaggeration (1/2 HP with one Hammer Whirlwind). If a thief that take 3 blows from a hammer autoattack chain (2.75s) in sequence, that thief wouldn’t beat you anyway with any class. If the thief is ‘taking it’, it’s because they are hitting you for significantly more (i.e. from Whirling Axe) or because they can’t avoid it (CC/stun/immobilize).

Artaz.3819:

So on one side of the coin, stealth, evade teleport is cheesy. And on the other you can take half their HP with 1/4s activated ability. Which side are you arguing for?

A class that can dish out 10k damage from stealth better be glass. If they can take out half my health from stealth, I sure as hell should be able to do the same quickly without stealth.

Artaz.3819:

By the way, I know the latter is false and an exaggeration (1/2 HP with one Hammer Whirlwind). If a thief that take 3 blows from a hammer autoattack chain (2.75s) in sequence, that thief wouldn’t beat you anyway with any class. If the thief is ‘taking it’, it’s because they are hitting you for significantly more (i.e. from Whirling Axe) or because they can’t avoid it (CC/stun/immobilize).

It is not an exaggeration. Whirlwind can easily deal 7-8k damage with just 3 hits. Whirlwind is on the GS btw.

And the thief that takes my hammer combo has obviously used up his stunbreaks already. In a 1v1, a d/p thief should never lose to a hammer warrior. However, not all fights are 1v1.

By the way, a thief could not hit me for more with whirling axe, even if all hits were critical, then a hammer combo with guarantueed crits.