Guild Wars 2

The argument isn’t all that complex. I do not believe unsuspecting foe as trait is OP as there are many traits that affect critical chance given a set of conditions be met. The problem is the vast majority of these traits are found at the master level and the 2 other 50-100 multiplier traits are both Grandmaster level.

The warrior skill Unsuspecting Foe Adept level trait in the Arms line. It gives a +50% chance to critical hit vs stunned foes. Does not apply to other impairments such as knock down, knock back, daze, etc.

The necromancer skill Deathly Perception Grandmaster trait in Soul Reaping line. Grants a +50% chance to critical hit while in Death Shroud.

And the thief skill Hidden Killer Grandmaster trait in the Critical Strikes line. Grants a +100% chance to critical hit while in stealth. This applies sole to the first hit of the first skill used while in stealth. Due to the fact stealth breaks on attack it applies to one hit solely.

I think unsuspecting foe matches these traits in terms of what they do. All the traits greatly increase your critical hit chance provided you enter a state (stealth and death shroud) or your target enters a state (stunned). The issue is that both Deathly perception and Hidden Killer require a major investment in order to get access to this type of bonus. Unsuspecting foe on the other hand requires a small investment in order to gain its benefits.

When you compare it to the 2 other adept traits that increase crit chance the mismatch becomes more glaring. Precise Wrack adds a +10% chance to crit with 1 skill Mind Wrack. Side Strike grants a +7% chance to crit as long as you are flanking the target. Neither one of these skills compares to Unsuspecting Foe in terms of damage multiplication.

If you look at the traits that increase critical hit chance the rest are 10%-15% additions. Minor or major they are fount at the master level or higher.

IMHO an addition this big to critical hit chance should be found at the GM level.

Also engineer trait for burning is in adapt while necro nerfed to 2sec in GM. The same i can say about 50% endurance regen on ranger in minor 5 while engi has to use GM trait to get it. Whats ur point? Ok lets says we moved it to gm anyway:

0/30/25/0/15 problem solved

Spend less time for trolling on forums, more time to adapt/diehard ingame.

Several things:

First off, comparing the traits of one class to another is not a logical thing to do, it’s apples to oranges. One of Warriors main strengths is their access to CC. Making is a GM trait would basically force us to trait into +Perc and +Condi Damage in order to do something that is our classes ONLY STRENGTH in the current meta. To be forced to spec 30 points into Arms would make us have to either drop Cleansing Ire, making conditions much more effective vs us, or to lose out on Burst Mastery, which would make our CC come much less frequently making us bring very little to the table in terms of TPvP.

Not having Unsuspecting Foe on a CC build makes your damage so low that once again, there would be no incentive to ever have a Warrior on your team because CC alone means almost noting without some sort of stable DPS. Right now Warriors are pretty much required to run either 0/20/20/0/30 or 0/10/30/0/30 if they want to run CC. Moving the trait to GM or even Master would give us little to no reason to use CC anymore. It doesn’t even really make sense that the trait is in Arms considering that it’s a trait line mostly focused on Sword/Longbow. However, moving it to any other trait line would make it compete with other near mandatory traits.

I’m getting really sick of the fact that not only were Warriors buff nowhere near as much as Necros were, we still see hardly any in high level TPvP, yet we are getting treated like we were made into the most OP class in the game by you, Hunter, and Excalibur. Most big time TPvPers don’t seem to have a major problem with Warrior as it is currently. I only feel the need to respond to these posts because I want the Devs to see that is is just a small, vocal minority that doesn’t represent the community at large.

nicknamenick.2437:

Scoobaniec.9561:

Also engineer trait for burning is in adapt while necro nerfed to 2sec in GM. The same i can say about 50% endurance regen on ranger in minor 5 while engi has to use GM trait to get it. Whats ur point? Ok lets says we moved it to gm anyway:

0/30/25/0/15 problem solved

Spend less time for trolling on forums, more time to adapt/diehard ingame.

No because now you cant get Furious..

He was being sarcastic. The whole point is that 0/30/25/0/15 would be the required points loadout with this suggested change. It would mean that we have a bunch of useless +condi damage which means there would be NO reason whatsoever to EVER use this trait. It would also cost frequent access to our stuns, making us worthless.

Both of your examples of other classes GM traits have a very significant difference from unsuspecting foe: both death shroud and stealth are built into their respective classes as a baseline mechanic. A warrior does not innately have stuns not traits to cause stuns, he has to go way out of his way giving up a weapon set to cause short duration stuns. That’s why it’s treated differently. There might be a case of sigil of paralyzation causing skull crack to last too long for such a short cooldown with little telegraph, but that’s an issue with skull crack and not this trait.

Scoobaniec.9561:

Also engineer trait for burning is in adapt while necro nerfed to 2sec in GM. The same i can say about 50% endurance regen on ranger in minor 5 while engi has to use GM trait to get it. Whats ur point? Ok lets says we moved it to gm anyway:

0/30/25/0/15 problem solved

Spend less time for trolling on forums, more time to adapt/diehard ingame.

Burning placement on Necromancer has to do with 2 things. Access to fear and that in beta burning was the straw that broke the camels back in terms of nerco and condition damage.

As far as the ranger skill goes. For many engineer builds they have access to permanent vigor through access to permanent swiftness. It should also be noted that vigor gives 100% endurance regeneration vs the rangers minor giving 50% and that ranger has a much harder time achieving permanent swiftness. Further more in terms of defensive traits the argument is more spread out and harder to tabulate.

There is major gap here do not misunderstand me. You may feel like a few insults prove some something but I assure you they do not. The trait is too good for an adept in this category.

Jzaku.9765:

Both of your examples of other classes GM traits have a very significant difference from unsuspecting foe: both death shroud and stealth are built into their respective classes as a baseline mechanic. A warrior does not innately have stuns not traits to cause stuns, he has to go way out of his way giving up a weapon set to cause short duration stuns. That’s why it’s treated differently. There might be a case of sigil of paralyzation causing skull crack to last too long for such a short cooldown with little telegraph, but that’s an issue with skull crack and not this trait.

Well in the case of thief this really only has one use with one main hand weapon dagger. If we examine the stealth skills thief gets access to you will find that in terms of DPS the only one worth slating this with is backstab (in any other case executioner would do you better if you had that many points in critical strikes). In the case of necro you are actually mistaken. That skill on really has a place in power builds designed around gaining life force quickly and using life blast.

Also in terms of number of stuns their durations and their CDs warrior is ahead of all other classes. Since stealth has a place in 4 classes and a thief could run a no stealth build it is entirely possible to use your logic and call strong access the equivalent of a class mechanic. If that were the case then stuns would be a warrior class mechanic.

TheGuy.3568:

Scoobaniec.9561:

Also engineer trait for burning is in adapt while necro nerfed to 2sec in GM. The same i can say about 50% endurance regen on ranger in minor 5 while engi has to use GM trait to get it. Whats ur point? Ok lets says we moved it to gm anyway:

0/30/25/0/15 problem solved

Spend less time for trolling on forums, more time to adapt/diehard ingame.

Burning placement on Necromancer has to do with 2 things. Access to fear and that in beta burning was the straw that broke the camels back in terms of nerco and condition damage.

As far as the ranger skill goes. For many engineer builds they have access to permanent vigor through access to permanent swiftness. It should also be noted that vigor gives 100% endurance regeneration vs the rangers minor giving 50% and that ranger has a much harder time achieving permanent swiftness. Further more in terms of defensive traits the argument is more spread out and harder to tabulate.

There is major gap here do not misunderstand me. You may feel like a few insults prove some something but I assure you they do not. The trait is too good for an adept in this category.

Actually u explained why unespescting foe is fine where it is, now take a look what other classes have and what wars have to see a clean image. Someone above actually understand whats going on.

Jzaku.9765:

.Both of your examples of other classes GM traits have a very significant difference from unsuspecting foe: both death shroud and stealth are built into their respective classes as a baseline mechanic. A warrior does not innately have stuns not traits to cause stuns, he has to go way out of his way giving up a weapon set to cause short duration stuns

/close thread

This is the worst suggestion I have ever heard in the history of video games.

Books could be written on the ways this would ruin the warrior profession.

Oh and changing it to master would just make hammer builds unviable, having little to no impact on mace GS builds. (0/20/20/0/30)

Phaeton.9582:

This is the worst suggestion I have ever heard in the history of video games.

Books could be written on the ways this would ruin the warrior profession.

Months ago very few warriors ran this trait so I probably would ruin the profession.

Scoobaniec.9561:

Actually u explained why unespescting foe is fine where it is, now take a look what other classes have and what wars have to see a clean image. Someone above actually understand whats going on.

/close thread

If you would like to explain this great imbalance as i took the time to explain my point then I would be all up for discussion. If not your just tossing random “Ohh go look over there”, statements with no facts to explain your points. If that is all you plan to do then I do not see the point in commenting.

TheGuy.3568:

Phaeton.9582:

This is the worst suggestion I have ever heard in the history of video games.

Books could be written on the ways this would ruin the warrior profession.

Months ago very few warriors ran this trait so I probably would ruin the profession.

True. But months ago axe/GS could work in the right hands. Now we have unblockable fear trains for that! I’ve made another post about this however, one that doesn’t argue points by comparing the traits of other classes…

Feel free to make sarcy comments in that, I probably deserve it.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Sic..
Most big time TPvPers don’t seem to have a major problem with Warrior as it is currently. I only feel the need to respond to these posts because I want the Devs to see that is is just a small, vocal minority that doesn’t represent the community at large.

That may be true. However it really doesn’t matter. In terms of what the trait does and how often you have access to stuns how long they last I think the point is valid. For example Heightened Focus provides much less of a benefit and is a grandmaster trait. Right-Handed Strength provides less and is also a GM trait. I have to ask are you saying a 50% increase with this much access to stun is fine as an adept trait? If so who aren’t all the other skills that provide that type of benefit lower in other classes trees.

Also class balancing has to be looked at cross class. In this case there is no argument for why it shouldn’t be moved up besides it would cost more of an investment. That could said of any GM trait tbh. There has to be trade offs for damage. It is on of the basics.

Phaeton.9582:

TheGuy.3568:

Phaeton.9582:

This is the worst suggestion I have ever heard in the history of video games.

Books could be written on the ways this would ruin the warrior profession.

Months ago very few warriors ran this trait so I probably would ruin the profession.

True. But months ago axe/GS could work in the right hands. Now we have unblockable fear trains for that! I’ve made another post about this however, one that doesn’t argue points by comparing the traits of other classes…

Feel free to make sarcy comments in that, I probably deserve it.

No I have no need to. My comment was not sarcastic just factual. Your’s however was. I understand what your saying but it still does not justify a skill that good being such a small investment. I do not care about the fear train. This trait seems out of place.

TheGuy.3568:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Sic..
Most big time TPvPers don’t seem to have a major problem with Warrior as it is currently. I only feel the need to respond to these posts because I want the Devs to see that is is just a small, vocal minority that doesn’t represent the community at large.

That may be true. However it really doesn’t matter. In terms of what the trait does and how often you have access to stuns how long they last I think the point is valid. For example Heightened Focus provides much less of a benefit and is a grandmaster trait. Right-Handed Strength provides less and is also a GM trait. I have to ask are you saying a 50% increase with this much access to stun is fine as an adept trait? If so who aren’t all the other skills that provide that type of benefit lower in other classes trees.

Also class balancing has to be looked at cross class. In this case there is no argument for why it shouldn’t be moved up besides it would cost more of an investment. That could said of any GM trait tbh. There has to be trade offs for damage. It is on of the basics.

Phaeton.9582:

TheGuy.3568:

Phaeton.9582:

This is the worst suggestion I have ever heard in the history of video games.

Books could be written on the ways this would ruin the warrior profession.

Months ago very few warriors ran this trait so I probably would ruin the profession.

True. But months ago axe/GS could work in the right hands. Now we have unblockable fear trains for that! I’ve made another post about this however, one that doesn’t argue points by comparing the traits of other classes…

Feel free to make sarcy comments in that, I probably deserve it.

No I have no need to. My comment was not sarcastic just factual. Your’s however was. I understand what your saying but it still does not justify a skill that good being such a small investment. I do not care about the fear train. This trait seems out of place.

Firstly heightened focus shouldn’t be a GM. For the interests of balance they effectively took this skill out of pvp usage.

I was referring to my sarcasm. And you know what, I care about warriors getting fear trained.

Because I actually play the class.

Phaeton.9582:

TheGuy.3568:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Sic..
Most big time TPvPers don’t seem to have a major problem with Warrior as it is currently. I only feel the need to respond to these posts because I want the Devs to see that is is just a small, vocal minority that doesn’t represent the community at large.

That may be true. However it really doesn’t matter. In terms of what the trait does and how often you have access to stuns how long they last I think the point is valid. For example Heightened Focus provides much less of a benefit and is a grandmaster trait. Right-Handed Strength provides less and is also a GM trait. I have to ask are you saying a 50% increase with this much access to stun is fine as an adept trait? If so who aren’t all the other skills that provide that type of benefit lower in other classes trees.

Also class balancing has to be looked at cross class. In this case there is no argument for why it shouldn’t be moved up besides it would cost more of an investment. That could said of any GM trait tbh. There has to be trade offs for damage. It is on of the basics.

Phaeton.9582:

TheGuy.3568:

Phaeton.9582:

This is the worst suggestion I have ever heard in the history of video games.

Books could be written on the ways this would ruin the warrior profession.

Months ago very few warriors ran this trait so I probably would ruin the profession.

True. But months ago axe/GS could work in the right hands. Now we have unblockable fear trains for that! I’ve made another post about this however, one that doesn’t argue points by comparing the traits of other classes…

Feel free to make sarcy comments in that, I probably deserve it.

No I have no need to. My comment was not sarcastic just factual. Your’s however was. I understand what your saying but it still does not justify a skill that good being such a small investment. I do not care about the fear train. This trait seems out of place.

Firstly heightened focus shouldn’t be a GM. For the interests of balance they effectively took this skill out of pvp usage.

I was referring to my sarcasm. And you know what, I care about warriors getting fear trained.

Because I actually play the class.

yes yes I know. I plat warrior thus i am right and your wrong. I retort I play warrior also. And we go like that. I do now care about the fear train because this simply has nothing to do with it. If you want fear nerfed go bother necros. Unsuspecting foe is too good for an adept trait. What does that have to do with fear. Ohh that right your DPS vs a necro, except the fact is you’ll still be able to stun lock one to death, have one of the strongest access to stability in the game, and fill all your utility slots with defensive traits. So no I do not care bout the fear train it’s off topic.

Unless you plan to discuss why a 50% critical hit chance trait is adept then I do not see why you bother replying?

The comparison to hidden killer and the necro trait is really, really far off.

Cygnus.6903:

The comparison to hidden killer and the necro trait is really, really far off.

I will ask again how so? Give an example if possible but these, “that’s not a fair comparison” makes no sense. In terms of what is it really really far off?

Adept is good place to this trait, because only works with Mace, Hammer and Sheld. These weapons requires aditional resources for deal dmg.
Honestly, i think this trait need an upgrade to work with disabled foes, and continue in adept trait.

TheGuy.3568:

Phaeton.9582:

TheGuy.3568:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Sic..
Most big time TPvPers don’t seem to have a major problem with Warrior as it is currently. I only feel the need to respond to these posts because I want the Devs to see that is is just a small, vocal minority that doesn’t represent the community at large.

That may be true. However it really doesn’t matter. In terms of what the trait does and how often you have access to stuns how long they last I think the point is valid. For example Heightened Focus provides much less of a benefit and is a grandmaster trait. Right-Handed Strength provides less and is also a GM trait. I have to ask are you saying a 50% increase with this much access to stun is fine as an adept trait? If so who aren’t all the other skills that provide that type of benefit lower in other classes trees.

Also class balancing has to be looked at cross class. In this case there is no argument for why it shouldn’t be moved up besides it would cost more of an investment. That could said of any GM trait tbh. There has to be trade offs for damage. It is on of the basics.

Phaeton.9582:

TheGuy.3568:

Phaeton.9582:

This is the worst suggestion I have ever heard in the history of video games.

Books could be written on the ways this would ruin the warrior profession.

Months ago very few warriors ran this trait so I probably would ruin the profession.

True. But months ago axe/GS could work in the right hands. Now we have unblockable fear trains for that! I’ve made another post about this however, one that doesn’t argue points by comparing the traits of other classes…

Feel free to make sarcy comments in that, I probably deserve it.

No I have no need to. My comment was not sarcastic just factual. Your’s however was. I understand what your saying but it still does not justify a skill that good being such a small investment. I do not care about the fear train. This trait seems out of place.

Firstly heightened focus shouldn’t be a GM. For the interests of balance they effectively took this skill out of pvp usage.

I was referring to my sarcasm. And you know what, I care about warriors getting fear trained.

Because I actually play the class.

yes yes I know. I plat warrior thus i am right and your wrong. I retort I play warrior also. And we go like that. I do now care about the fear train because this simply has nothing to do with it. If you want fear nerfed go bother necros. Unsuspecting foe is too good for an adept trait. What does that have to do with fear. Ohh that right your DPS vs a necro, except the fact is you’ll still be able to stun lock one to death, have one of the strongest access to stability in the game, and fill all your utility slots with defensive traits. So no I do not care bout the fear train it’s off topic.

Unless you plan to discuss why a 50% critical hit chance trait is adept then I do not see why you bother replying?

I only mentioned it because you stated that warriors didn’t used to run the trait. Well that’s why we started. I started shortly before the necro patch and posted a stun lock build in the forums shortly after. Many other warriors have since seen the benefits of cc, something arenanet have said In interview to be a specific goal for warrior meta.

What frustrates me about this thread is you seem to be discussing the trait and not the builds its used in. Clearly moving the trait would nerf all cc warriors heavily, not just mace GS sustain builds.

And as I pointed out mace GS would if anything be nerfed the least by this change.

Another nerf warrior QQ topic.

JETWING.2759:

Adept is good place to this trait, because only works with Mace, Hammer and Sheld. These weapons requires aditional resources for deal dmg.
Honestly, i think this trait need an upgrade to work with disabled foes, and continue in adept trait.

Hmm with that logic shouldn’t blademaster and Right-Handed Strength be adept also. On that note the trait works vs any stunned target. If you were to say “lock” the damage to those 3 weapons I could see your point making sense. However, in this case one you apply the stun you could switch to higher DPS weapon and capitalize.

TheGuy.3568:

<cut nonsense>

Bc we have to carry a weapon that has stuns in first place to make it work. Traits u mentioned are class mechanic, if u want follow ur logic its should look like that:

Necro need to spec in xx traitline to get access to deathshroud
Thiefs need to spec in xx traitline to be able to stealth
Mesmer need to spec in xx trailine to unlock his f abilities depending on traits

See how silly it is?

Both the classes u mentioned have actually build these mechanic into class, traits are there just to improve them, unlike warrior that has to pick up a specific weapon to use single trait.

Just to reming ya: first u been complaining about warrior healing, now complaining about trait, what next? Remove dodges from warrior bc they wears heavy armor?

The freekill warrior times are over, now work to kill one like we had to. Nothing is op in current status, noone been complaning about anything before warrior boost to sustain.

Warrior community was playing with worse sustain in game, and right now with buffed healing they wipes floor with noobs that used to be carried by class, bc u cant kite them to death anymore.

Like i said in previous post: adapt or diehard

If u want to be respected earn it, as it stands now i see ya as one of the guys in pic
(hint: a guy without name)

Scoobaniec.9561:

TheGuy.3568:

<cut nonsense>

Pointless

Look I get your whole rant but I am not responding to that dribble. Facts or forget it.

Phaeton.9582:

TheGuy.3568:

Phaeton.9582:

TheGuy.3568:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Sic..
Most big time TPvPers don’t seem to have a major problem with Warrior as it is currently. I only feel the need to respond to these posts because I want the Devs to see that is is just a small, vocal minority that doesn’t represent the community at large.

That may be true. However it really doesn’t matter. In terms of what the trait does and how often you have access to stuns how long they last I think the point is valid. For example Heightened Focus provides much less of a benefit and is a grandmaster trait. Right-Handed Strength provides less and is also a GM trait. I have to ask are you saying a 50% increase with this much access to stun is fine as an adept trait? If so who aren’t all the other skills that provide that type of benefit lower in other classes trees.

Also class balancing has to be looked at cross class. In this case there is no argument for why it shouldn’t be moved up besides it would cost more of an investment. That could said of any GM trait tbh. There has to be trade offs for damage. It is on of the basics.

Phaeton.9582:

TheGuy.3568:

Phaeton.9582:

This is the worst suggestion I have ever heard in the history of video games.

Books could be written on the ways this would ruin the warrior profession.

Months ago very few warriors ran this trait so I probably would ruin the profession.

True. But months ago axe/GS could work in the right hands. Now we have unblockable fear trains for that! I’ve made another post about this however, one that doesn’t argue points by comparing the traits of other classes…

Feel free to make sarcy comments in that, I probably deserve it.

No I have no need to. My comment was not sarcastic just factual. Your’s however was. I understand what your saying but it still does not justify a skill that good being such a small investment. I do not care about the fear train. This trait seems out of place.

Firstly heightened focus shouldn’t be a GM. For the interests of balance they effectively took this skill out of pvp usage.

I was referring to my sarcasm. And you know what, I care about warriors getting fear trained.

Because I actually play the class.

yes yes I know. I plat warrior thus i am right and your wrong. I retort I play warrior also. And we go like that. I do now care about the fear train because this simply has nothing to do with it. If you want fear nerfed go bother necros. Unsuspecting foe is too good for an adept trait. What does that have to do with fear. Ohh that right your DPS vs a necro, except the fact is you’ll still be able to stun lock one to death, have one of the strongest access to stability in the game, and fill all your utility slots with defensive traits. So no I do not care bout the fear train it’s off topic.

Unless you plan to discuss why a 50% critical hit chance trait is adept then I do not see why you bother replying?

I only mentioned it because you stated that warriors didn’t used to run the trait. Well that’s why we started. I started shortly before the necro patch and posted a stun lock build in the forums shortly after. Many other warriors have since seen the benefits off cc, something arenanet have said In interview to be a specific goal for warrior meta.

What frustrates me about this thread is you seem to be discussing the trait and not the builds its used in. Clearly moving the trait would nerf all cc warriors heavily, not just mace GS sustain builds.

And as I pointed out mace GS would if anything be nerfed the least by this change.

You bring up an interesting point. I am only focusing on the trait. I think its out of place. I do not care so much about the build but the cost of having such a strong damaging enhancing skill so low in the line. If you want me to argue why or why not Mace Shield is OP I can do that elsewhere but rather not spend my time going over the particulars. In this case given how powerful critical chance is as a dps modifier I find it strange that access require so few points.

You can bring up mace shield how it wont be touched etc. However, that has nothing to do with my point.

This “Clearly moving the trait would nerf all cc warriors heavily, not just mace GS sustain builds.” How so? I wouldn’t effect the main goal of the build in anyway (that would be crowd control). Unless your trying to say a strong CC build also needs access to strong sustained DPS?

TheGuy.3568:

You bring up an interesting point. I am only focusing on the trait. I think its out of place. I do not care so much about the build but the cost of having such a strong damaging enhancing skill so low in the line. If you want me to argue why or why not Mac Shield is Op I can do that elsewhere but rather not spend my time going over the particulars. In this case given how powerless critical chance is as a dps modifier I find it strange that access require so few points.

You can bring up mace shield how it wont be touched etc. However, that has nothing to do with my point.

This “Clearly moving the trait would nerf all cc warriors heavily, not just mace GS sustain builds.” How so? I wouldn’t effect the main goal of the build in anyway (that would be crowd control). Unless your trying to say a strong CC build also needs access to strong sustained DPS?

I’m not talking about mace shield. But that’s beside the point.

And yes I am saying unequivocally that a strong cc build needs access to strong dps. I don’t see how you can argue this point.

Phaeton.9582:

TheGuy.3568:

You bring up an interesting point. I am only focusing on the trait. I think its out of place. I do not care so much about the build but the cost of having such a strong damaging enhancing skill so low in the line. If you want me to argue why or why not Mac Shield is Op I can do that elsewhere but rather not spend my time going over the particulars. In this case given how powerless critical chance is as a dps modifier I find it strange that access require so few points.

You can bring up mace shield how it wont be touched etc. However, that has nothing to do with my point.

This “Clearly moving the trait would nerf all cc warriors heavily, not just mace GS sustain builds.” How so? I wouldn’t effect the main goal of the build in anyway (that would be crowd control). Unless your trying to say a strong CC build also needs access to strong sustained DPS?

I’m not talking about mace shield. But that’s beside the point.

And yes I am saying unequivocally that a strong cc build needs access to strong dps. I don’t see how you can argue this point.

That was a typo on my part plus that post is at max characters and I didn’t want to edit further. Mace/Shield + GS, but in any case that doesn’t matter in the slightest in terms of this discussion.

Well that’s a whole other topic. Big issue so I rather not post haphazardly. That is to say strong CC (heavy access) is generally not coupled with strong DPS in one build for obvious reasons. That being said I think its fine as long as the player is forced to invest heavily for it (giving up other powerful traits).

I should also point out from your other post. Generally when meta shift heavily toward one build from a diverse group there is something wrong.

Phaeton.9582:

This is the worst suggestion I have ever heard in the history of video games.

Books could be written on the ways this would ruin the warrior profession.

Exaggerate much? Most warriors don’t even take this trait.

Hidden Killer is useless and no one takes that trait, but it is GM because of the frequency at which thieves could make use of it because of a class mechanic that they have to make zero sacrifice to achieve. Deathly perception is another class mechanic altering trait. Unsuspecting foe grants a boost to three weapons available to warrior and provides an increase in dps because the three weapons that can make use of the mechanic are low dps anyway. When you take weapons that can stun you lose mobility whereas the other traits you mentioned require no sacrifice (except for better traits) and are therefore different entirely.

VidurrRedhands.1964:

Hidden Killer is useless and no one takes that trait, but it is GM because of the frequency at which thieves could make use of it because of a class mechanic that they have to make zero sacrifice to achieve.

I take it you have never played thief. I won’t give you a page of why you are wrong (and trust me you are very wrong), but your basic 0 30 30 10 0 build has some built in opportunity cost for taking hidden killer.

VidurrRedhands.1964:

Deathly perception is another class mechanic altering trait.

Read the other posts.

VidurrRedhands.1964:

Unsuspecting foe grants a boost to three weapons available to warrior and provides an increase in dps because the three weapons that can make use of the mechanic are low dps anyway. When you take weapons that can stun you lose mobility whereas the other traits you mentioned require no sacrifice (except for better traits) and are therefore different entirely.

Read the other posts.

I’ve played a thief since release and never once did i consider taking hidden killer over executioner. The difference in dps between the two traits is staggering.

And since you won’t be bothered to see opposing arguments, neither should anyone else see yours.

/thread

VidurrRedhands.1964:

I’ve played a thief since release and never once did i consider taking hidden killer over executioner. The difference in dps between the two traits is staggering.

Which tells me about how many thief builds you have played. So while you may have played from the start clearly you do not truly know the class. Executioner is a fantastic trait (also mentioned in a earlier response should really look into reading them) however Hidden Killer has it’s place also. More sustained from Exec in the long run but you can get burst without sacrificing stat points from hidden killer and its better with backstab builds (see the first hyper link to a previous response). Off topic btw.

VidurrRedhands.1964:

And since you won’t be bothered to see opposing arguments, neither should anyone else see yours.

/thread

Wait what? I already responded to both your points I hyper linked the responses so…….

TheGuy.3568:

The warrior skill Unsuspecting Foe Adept level trait in the Arms line. It gives a +50% chance to critical hit vs stunned foes. Does not apply to other impairments such as knock down, knock back, daze, etc.

The necromancer skill Deathly Perception Grandmaster trait in Soul Reaping line. Grants a +50% chance to critical hit while in Death Shroud.

And the thief skill Hidden Killer Grandmaster trait in the Critical Strikes line. Grants a +100% chance to critical hit while in stealth. This applies sole to the first hit of the first skill used while in stealth. Due to the fact stealth breaks on attack it applies to one hit solely.

The difference between these traits is blatantly obvious.

Necromancers have access to Deathshroud with any weapon, pretty much whenever they want.

Hidden Killer is similarly easy to access, added with the fact that attacks from stealth are very powerful, not to mention that there’s tons of traits that make stealthing as often as possible an ideal strategy.

In comparison, warriors have exactly three stuns in the whole game. Skull Crack, Earthshaker and Shield Bash. Out of these, Shield Bash is so short that you can pretty much only use it to crit a burst skill. Which really isn’t that big of a deal, considering that you can reach 100% crit rate on burst with a little effort.

The only build that has ever been complained about in relation to Unsuspecting Foe would be the Skull Cracker, or Mace/x with a Greatsword, resulting in a 100 blades that has a 100% crit rate. But really, there’s already a ton of discussion about the Skull Cracker, there’s really no need to go into that.

And honestly, the other possibilities with Unsuspecting Foe? Well, coupled with Merciless Hammer, it actually makes the Hammer, which is already plagued with its animations and the Leg Specialist change, a playable option. And it makes damage-oriented builds with a Sword/Shield useful with giving Final Thrust a nice damage boost.

Wow..someone who wants to nerf warriors who are at the bottom of the food chain as they are..

Must be a bad thief..

Note to self..check his signature..

Please stop posting. Cry thread (thief/baddies thread) that way > > >

Bad thieves should be moved to the ‘carry more’ profession thread.

Hint: Thief thread.

Ugh this guy..

But thanks for the tip on cc warriors dude.. ’preciated

Thieves CAN have loads of stealth which means their trait can be used a lot more, necros have their thing no matter what, warriors have at most 7s ( I think) without sigils, and that’s over 3 different weapons and 2 skills are burst meaning you need to fill adrenaline twice to get their full duration. That, along with warrior’s often quite slow animations doesn’t add up to too much of an increase.

TheGuy.3568:

JETWING.2759:

Adept is good place to this trait, because only works with Mace, Hammer and Sheld. These weapons requires aditional resources for deal dmg.
Honestly, i think this trait need an upgrade to work with disabled foes, and continue in adept trait.

Hmm with that logic shouldn’t blademaster and Right-Handed Strength be adept also. On that note the trait works vs any stunned target. If you were to say “lock” the damage to those 3 weapons I could see your point making sense. However, in this case one you apply the stun you could switch to higher DPS weapon and capitalize.

No because both of those skills mentioned are a permanent crit percent chance increase, rather than a specific condition crit chance increase. Stuns, while effective, can be easily countered with stability / stun breaks, which take away that +50% crit chance. If your counter argument is that ‘oh well some builds don’t run stability’ then that’s their choice. My particular warrior build only has 1 stun break and no stability (I run triple shouts) and if I get hard CC’d to death that’s on me for not running some stability. Please some QQ’ing about this, it’s getting old.

The flexibility this trait provides to specs that aren’t considered viable is astounding. If you’re going to take that away because mace+shield/GS offends your 1v1 WvW sensibilities or whatever the case may be, then give us something in return.

If you can’t think of something to give us in return to try to not pigeonhole is or otherwise ruin the class, your entire point and thread is moot.

It should be moved… to the defense tree.

the defense tree has so many good traits its starting to get a little bloated.

poor arms however has like 2 good traits at the adept level. and both of those traits are for completely different builds.

honestly i wish more classes could be like the warrior, diverse and satisfying to play.

Daecollo.9578:

It should be moved… to the defense tree.

Coz u iz using it!

Daecollo.9578:

It should be moved… to the defense tree.

I’d rather see it in Strength if it had to be moved at all (It doesn’t), Defense has so many good traits that it be impossible to fit it into a Hammer build. Right now the only Adept trait in Strength worth taking is Restorative Strength. I kinda understand why Unsuspecting Foe is where it is because it deals with Crit chance but because only Maces and Hammers gain anything from it it would fit in Strength as well.

The fact is though, moving this trait to GM in ANY tree would totally destroy Hammer builds. In order to use it you pretty much HAVE to place 30 in defense because you don’t want to lose either the Hammer trait or Cleansing Ire. Putting it in GM Arms would mean you’d only have 10 left over points and a Warrior without Fast Hands in PvP is a really pathetic Warrior. As stated earlier no team will ever want a CC warrior if they can’t put out any sort of DPS, even with Zerker Ammy it would still be poor DPS with even worse sustain. Hammer is so slow that if I don’t get Crits on skills like Fierce Blow and Backbreaker I’m basically not worth taking over another Necro or Engi.

You want to nerf Mace but this would actually hurt Hammer much worse. This would be like D/D Ele all over again. CC alone won’t make us attractive, it’s our ability to take a bit of punishment, but not as much as a guardian, while dealing out a lot of CC/DPS, but not enough damage as Thieves, that makes the class even remotely good.

Mace isn’t too popular in TPvP because it’s only good on a single target in a gametype focused on AoE. Hammer offers a lot more team functionality, and this suggestion would kill it.

I think it should be placed inside Merciless Hammer.

Daecollo.9578:

I think it should be placed inside Merciless Hammer.

No.

Not only hammer users use stuns you know?

Fenrir.5493:

Daecollo.9578:

I think it should be placed inside Merciless Hammer.

No.

Not only hammer users use stuns you know?

Why can’t you just use merciless hammer/grab a mace then?

Daecollo.9578:

Fenrir.5493:

Daecollo.9578:

I think it should be placed inside Merciless Hammer.

No.

Not only hammer users use stuns you know?

Why can’t you just use merciless hammer/grab a mace then?

Because its a waste of a trait, there are already very good options in defense, so many very good option that you just cant grab all of them, putting another good trait in there will be an overkill to that line.

Hammer trait is already a good trait it dosent need to be buffed in anyway and people that use hammer grab it, people that dont use dont grab it, and it should stay that way.

XII.9401:

Wow..someone who wants to nerf warriors who are at the bottom of the food chain as they are..

Must be a bad thief..

Note to self..check his signature..

Please stop posting. Cry thread (thief/baddies thread) that way > > >

Sigh…the ignorance here is stifling. I have more hours on my warrior than my thief. I play it more often and while my thief sits on the shelf most of the time I play my warrior. that being said the trait is literally too good for its tier like many traits before it. Whether it is moved or not who knows.

About your food chain. Spvp is the least played portion of this game. The pop has yet to and likely never will get into it. PvE being more popular than anything has the least say in balance. WvW is inherently unbalanced, but does has some features that could be considered too much in many builds and they have been nerfed in the past. Whenever some one points out that something is OP those who use the build attack and use the weakest logic to justify their point (well you play class “X” so probably you got beat). I get that. Honestly it is just a way of defending what is OP (I did it back in the day with ele to a degree). That being said it does not change the fact that it is OP. So no matter the class or the perception at the moment warrior does have some traits and build that would be considered OP in most games. Stun locking by definition is generally considered OP but is usually offset by the fact that it has low DPS. In this case many stun builds have high sustained DPS. That is not really offset in terms of defense (as it can be built tanky) or mobile (and GS is king of this). That being said this thread is about one trait that is out of place. And it is out of place.

Last but not least if you plan to indite everyone for what classes they play (I have 5 80s btw) then your an kitten. Playing multiple toons allows you to see the big picture much more clearly. I do not feel tied down to some loyalty to a class. I call it like I see it. FOTM players have a tendency to see things from one perspective and that is a shame. Eventually the build will be nerfed. Depending on how it is done collateral damage to other builds is unavoidable.

Ya dude please go QQ elsewhere. The trait has been like this since open beta and this is the 1st time I ever heard people cry over it. Learn to play use a stun breaker, learn to dodge, use stability. Are we seriouly getting upset becasue a warrior stunned somone and 100 bladed them, this is the least of your worries.

I find it funny that people are complaining about Skull Crack + HB with unsuspecting foe when that isn’t even the build that you would use if you were actually good with the class.

You are still ignoring the fact that moving the trait any higher will not only make Hammer worthless but will make it a trait that never sees any use. Basically you’re not looking for it to be balanced but removed from the game and become another GM trait that nobody ever uses. Also, the build is NOWHERE near as good as Ele was back in the day, you don’t see a Warrior fighting 3 equally geared players and winning because it can continuously zoom in and out of the fight and wear down peoples heals. At best CC builds are good 1v1 and can do OK 2v1 only if one player is really bad and the other has low DPS. I still can’t match the survival of a Guardian when it comes to Zerg vs Zerg because they are constantly healing due to the # of people around them while they provide buffs.

You can talk about objectivity all you want but it isn’t objective in the least to propose effectively removing a trait from the game. Can you really see anyone putting 30 points into ARMS to get a trait that only works for weapons that don’t have conditions that deal damage? The trait only punishes glassy condition spammers that don’t bring stability or stun breaks…or even Protection. In fact Protection makes the damage almost laughably low. Saying stun locking is considered OP is just as ridiculous because it has tons of perfectly viable counters. Even recently I see that Necros are starting to bring traits and utilities to counter me. Engis Protection Injection can force a standoff where neither side can win unless one party messes up. Thieves and Mesmers have so many ways to avoid being locked down it isn’t even funny.

I’m fine if Merciless Hammer gets:
Cause confusion for 5 seconds on critical hits, and hammer attacks have torment built into the autoattack and 4.

Oh look guys, more tears.

Nothing to see here.