Guild Wars 2

If they want us to use vengeance then I agree with you, they should atleast make it so you don’t die at the end.

But I would rather see we get new downed skills that are the same as other classes.
The throw rock is absurd, hammer toss is one target only + it doesn’t work 80% of the time and vengence is for me “wtf i killed him, now im dead because i dont have it traited?!!”.

vengeance is quite a bit more powerful then the thieves teleport or the ele’s mist form.

honestly i look at people trying to change the warrior class with quite a bit of disdain. there are far far FAR more pressing problems on a lot of the other classes then to worry about your pet peeves.

instead of trying to press your own little ideas of what would make X better. how about you press instead for some bug fixes.

or at the very least present your suggestions to the suggestion forum.

Fiorrello.8126:

vengeance is quite a bit more powerful then the thieves teleport or the ele’s mist form.

honestly i look at people trying to change the warrior class with quite a bit of disdain. there are far far FAR more pressing problems on a lot of the other classes then to worry about your pet peeves.

instead of trying to press your own little ideas of what would make X better. how about you press instead for some bug fixes.

or at the very least present your suggestions to the suggestion forum.

Who pressing here? He wrote what he thought and asked us to do the same. I didn’t see this as a plea or pressing Anet to do us some kind of favour.

There are certainly more important things ANet should take care of…

OP is completely right about that skill. Have u ever seen cd on it? Its won’t be op by any means. Right now that skill is completely useless as it is. Really use 3 to kill urself..Who had idea like that?

I would like to see vengeance working diff way, when u kill someone under this effect u still won’t rally, but instead going back to downed when time is over (when not trained). Fair enough

i think its good as it is now, granted “Sweet Revenge” is a necessity,
i’d be happy if they added sweet revenge as default so if you get a kill you rally,
but i think returning you to downed is far too win/win.

also i hear (though never tried out) that if you get back to full hp while under “Vengeance” you rally.

I also think that vengeance should not result in death.

It should work the way sweet revenge works right now.
If you manage to get a kill, you won´t die, if you don´t kill somebody while
under the effect of vengeance you die.

Sweet revenge could then improve the chances.
For example:
Activating vengeance refills all health
or
Vengeance lasts X seconds longer
or
After killing someone while vengeance is activated
you regain health / get a buff

It´s just stupid to use a skill that lets you die,
when you fight for your life.
I feel like I gained nothing 90% of the time
and would rather have something else as a downed
skill.

Vengeance is a laughably bad in PvP. You’ll never get it to charge up before you’re stomped. There’s no comparing to Elementalist Vapour Form, which is the most unbalanced and overpowered downed state ability in the game. It allows you to suicide with your Elementalist with 0 risk and all the rewards in WvW because if you’re smart you just slink into a tower/keep door and ress yourself. Or right back into the ressing arms of your friends.

Vengeance really should.

1. Be ready as soon as you go down (yeah, suck it Elementalists)
2. Reduce you to downed state upon ending (yeah, suck it twice Elementalists. We can be overpowered jerks too!… In my dreams.)

Even with my hilarious “overpowered” changes, it still sucks in comparison to Vapour Form; that ability renders you immune to damage/conditions/cc too! Vengeance doesn’t. Now do you realize how hilarious unbalanced that thing is?

As it stands the skill in the context of pvp is near useless in terms of not dying.

It does have some (situational) uses like getting to a safe spot where you can be ressed or i’ve sometimes used it to ress another downed player but only if i know that i would have died regardless.

i’ve used vengeance to res most of my party in a dungeon wipe.
to stall a zerg so my allies can get away in WvW
to revive myself in pve in orr

things an ele can do with their mist form down skill
-remove conditions, get away, interrupt stomps

things and ele can’t do in mist form from downed
-save your allies, revive people, operate siege, stomp someone

i don’t get why you all think it’s horrible as it is, i’m rank 31 and i LOVE vengeance, with Sweet Revenge it’s my favourite downed skill of any class, that moment where you down someone while downed yourself, just knowing “yep i’ve won this” as you stand up and stomp them

the only change i’d do to Vengeance is to grant Sweet Revenge as default.

I haven’t done a lot of WvW or any PvP with my warrior, but in PvE, even untraited, I can usually manage to rally off of Vengeance.

Basically, if I think a mob is really low and going to die while I’m downed, I’ll just throw rocks at it and let the 100% rally kick in, especially if it’s a weak mob (which may not trigger Vengeance rally anyway without Sweet Revenge).

If nothing is trying to finish me and I don’t think a rally is imminent, I’ll bandage.

I pretty much only use Vengeance in one of two cases:
1) I’m being attacked and can’t bandage, nobody is reviving me. I see a lowish HP champ/veteran/boss or several weaker mobs I can cleave through. I wager that I can finish the job and get a rally. I’ve been very lucky, I feel, about using Vengeance and getting timely rallies off of even standard, non-silver mobs.

2) I’m almost dead and nobody is going to save/rally me. I’ll use Vengeance anyway and see if I can make something happen. Maybe I can rally anyway, or more often than not I can just beat on a boss for some more damage and throw out some might/fury to my team, possibly revive somebody and then croak.

Either way, I was probably going to die anyway, so I don’t mind taking another chance, even if the odds aren’t great.

I feel like it’s easy to misuse vengeance when you have better odds of bandaging/being revived/rallying off a downed kill (if you don’t trait Sweet Revenge), and I still think my Elementalist survives more downed states due to vapor form, but I like Vengeance as it is. I think it’s really powerful offensively but not a very good skin-saver, sort of the opposite of most downed skills.

I think it could do with a reduced cool down personally. 90% of the time I’m dead before it’s even off cool down.

No. Get off your kitten… Nobody should have a free “run around after downed” skill. Elementalists shouldn’t have mistform either, and making vengeance down you after used would only make Warriors about 10 times worse than Eles (Vengeance lasts a LOT longer than Mistform).

Vengeance isn’t a “get out of jail free” card. It’s a last ditch to make as much damage as you can before you kick the bucket. If you’re going down, take as much with you as you can. If you want a “last stand”, then trait into it. It’s valuable enough.

ProxyDamage.9826:

and making vengeance down you after used would only make Warriors about 10 times worse than Eles (Vengeance lasts a LOT longer than Mistform).

No, no it wouldn’t. When you use Vengeance you are not immune to damage, conditions or crowd control. Most of the times you’ll get zerged again, cc’d and spammed to death.

Vapour Form does give you immunity to everything. There is no way in kitten that Vengeance could ever be made worse than that frakking ability.

But I digress. I wasn’t serious about my changes to Vengeance. I was merely pointing out how ridiculous Vapour Form truly is.

I fail to see how vapor form is o/p. It allows them to move away much like thieves can. It doesn’t do damage. I also don’t see the problem with vengeance as it’s quite powerful and allows you to still contribute when you’re being zerged off the map.

If you want it to suck like 3/4th of the other downed skills like Rangers, Engineers, Guardians, Etc… then fine. Make a downed shout that would give all allies around you swiftness and a buff to res time.

Really, vengeance is an awesome skill. If you can survive 20 seconds, you’re golden in more cases than most other classes. The problem is that the warrior has absolutely no options for the “slight” chance that there will be more than one person in WvW or PvP, or more than one mob in PvE. You have ZERO options for multiple targets. All of the other classes have escapes or aoe knockbacks (though necro has fear, which is much better as it’s not screwed over by stability). Most classes also have AOE damage skills. I want the Warrior #2 to be changed to a ground slam (lifts arm and pounds ground) and have an aoe knockback. That would do a lot to giving the warrior an actual chance of ever using their Vengeance.

There is no logic behind downed skills balancing in this game. Some abilities are extremely OP while others are extremely useless. Warrior is the latter, so better dont get downed.

I play WvW-only and when my warrior gets downed, the game is over. Vengeance is a joke. Its on a 20s cooldown. I cant remember the last time when I was able to use it in WvW. And when I use it, all the enemy has to do is ignore me for a few seconds until I die. Even Downed #2 is rarely usable because most of the time I get stomped instantly.

Teg – #2 is very useful if there is only one person stomping you and they don’t have stability. And if you managed to use it, they’d be stupid to ignore you – if my warrior stands up and they don’t do all they can to drop me or actively engage me to avoid my attacks, they WILL die. It just happens to be that there’s always 2, so there is jack crap I can do to avoid a stomp. I’ve managed to get Vengeance ONCE in all the times I’ve allowed my warrior to go to WvW.

Atherakhia.4086:

I fail to see how vapor form is o/p. It allows them to move away much like thieves can. It doesn’t do damage. I also don’t see the problem with vengeance as it’s quite powerful and allows you to still contribute when you’re being zerged off the map.

If you want it to suck like 3/4th of the other downed skills like Rangers, Engineers, Guardians, Etc… then fine. Make a downed shout that would give all allies around you swiftness and a buff to res time.

Ranger, guardian downed skills sux? Nice trolling. Yeah i wants downed skills like ranger, guardian. I wants a pet to heal me within seconds as ranger, i wants aoe knockback like guardians. Btw, have u ever tried to kill ranger underwater?

I can olny agree on engineer part.

That would be OP as F! you have the HP bar to throw rocks then you get another HP bar for another counter attack. wow. i can just hammer enemy down and vengeance boom, free win

From a pvp perspective we have the most UP downed skills.
Unlike other classes we have zero AoE rupt so there is no way to prevent a stake like Guardian/Thief/Mes/Ele can do.
Vengeance takes too long to activate you’re lucky if you get to do it in 1vs1 but most times you can’t get it off.

I love it. You can rally in it to. Whats not to love?

the only thing that should change about vengeance is its cast speed. Make it an instant cast and your good to go.

Drawing Guy.3701:

Teg – #2 is very useful if there is only one person stomping you and they don’t have stability. And if you managed to use it, they’d be stupid to ignore you – if my warrior stands up and they don’t do all they can to drop me or actively engage me to avoid my attacks, they WILL die. It just happens to be that there’s always 2, so there is jack crap I can do to avoid a stomp. I’ve managed to get Vengeance ONCE in all the times I’ve allowed my warrior to go to WvW.

You’re right that #2 has its uses in 1vs1. But 1vs1 is very rare in WvW. Most of the times Im facing someone 1vs1 its either a thief or a d/d ele. In both cases our #2 is useless: thief stomps you from stealth and ele stomps you with armor of earth or mist form.

Downed #2 should be instantly usable + effect should be PBAOE (no target needed). Than it would be useful in WvW.

BTW: Eles Vapor Form has been changed so its instantly ready when downed.

teg needs to work on his sarcasm meter a little bit – especially if you couple it with my post that happened just before your own.

Short – Vengeance is awesome as is, but with ZERO options against multiple targets like every class in the game has, we’re effed, so Vengeance never gets to happen in any situation in the game except when we only have one target (zero works too! Though would just use the 4 heal in that case) without stability against us. That is a problem that NEEDS fixing.

personal I just avoid it, if I’m downed and alone its pretty much me going “ok unless I rally from killing with my stones i’m dead.”

Its not ideal i’ll admit but i’v seen worse down skills.
personal I’d wish it was something a little more like the guardian. why not have us give off something like “final howl” and make it a quick 1-2 second shout fear

Vengeance is fine. It’s a high risk, but high reward ability that allows you to operate fully well for several seconds and maybe kill something. What sucks is Hammer Toss. Hammer Toss is lame. I think that every class that has a “root/KD/fear” on their #2 deserves a better one than that. Every class should have a “movement” ability on their #2, since many times you end up downed inside an AoE field, which spells inevitable death.

Warriors should get a ground targeted ability that causes them to dodge roll to that location. Necros should get a Spectral Walk similar to Mist Form. Engineers should be able to use a short range, no damage Jump Shot. Guardians should have a short range Flashing Blade style teleport. Rangers should have Lightning Reflexes.

And for the record, Thieves have the worst #3 skill, that split-second Stealth never saved any Thief except in PvP, and even then it only bought them a little time maybe.

And btw, some have said that Sweet Revenge should be built in, definitely not. It would be little help in PvP or boss fights but would make Warriors almost unkillable in PvE with smaller mobs around, something that definitely isn’t true of any other class. If they made any such change it shouldn’t be a 100% chance of rallying on a kill, but maybe a small chance of rallying on each hit, or maybe on each crit, so that it’s still a gamble, but it’d be something more likely to proc off of high-HP opponents.

Warrior downed skills are even more funny underwater.

Drawing Guy.3701:

teg needs to work on his sarcasm meter a little bit – especially if you couple it with my post that happened just before your own.

Hehe. Sometimes its hard for me because english is not my main language. But I try to do my best, bro!

Fiorrello.8126:

vengeance is quite a bit more powerful then the thieves teleport or the ele’s mist form.

honestly i look at people trying to change the warrior class with quite a bit of disdain. there are far far FAR more pressing problems on a lot of the other classes then to worry about your pet peeves.

instead of trying to press your own little ideas of what would make X better. how about you press instead for some bug fixes.

or at the very least present your suggestions to the suggestion forum.

Honestly, thief and ele have better “dying skill” than warrior, since thieve 1st skil does surprisingly good damage & bounce, Cheap “finish him” avoidance skill, and stealth. Ele 2nd skill work wonder on several situation thx to invulnerability.

Warrior obv need overal buff for dying skill. throwing rock suck balls on both effect & damage, stun is just pure meh, vengeance should be buffed to give full ress when killing player, bronze/silver/gold mob. Wasting 20 trait point for something that only has 40% success rate Is just pure BS.

What Warriors need is simple:

1) A way to delay multiple opponents from stomping you. A single target Knockdown is essentially worthless.

2) A waaaay shorter charge-up on Vengeance. Combined with our inability to delay multiple opponents and the enormous charge-up time, you’ll never get Vengeance going.

Arkanis Drako.5169:

I also think that vengeance should not result in death.

It should work the way sweet revenge works right now.
If you manage to get a kill, you won´t die, if you don´t kill somebody while
under the effect of vengeance you die.

Sweet revenge could then improve the chances.
For example:
Activating vengeance refills all health
or
Vengeance lasts X seconds longer
or
After killing someone while vengeance is activated
you regain health / get a buff

It´s just stupid to use a skill that lets you die,
when you fight for your life.
I feel like I gained nothing 90% of the time
and would rather have something else as a downed
skill.

I like these ideas. As you can guess, I’m on the same boat for Vengeance is a useless skill unless you want to guarantee your death. I should have to waste traits to get Sweet Revenge just so I don’t rage at how pathetic Warrior’s downed state is.

The trait should just be included baseline, after all it’s not really a “vengeance” if you die after killing your opponent anyway.

But yes, warrior downed skills aren’t great (along with necro), especially compared to the delay/disruption possible on thief, mesmer, ele or even engi/guardian.

I might agree with baseline Sweet Revenge in PvE, but definitely not in PvP. Hammer is nasty enough as it is without one of the immunity-stomps, and if you’re hit by a well-timed hammer while you’re trying to stomp, you have to fight him for another 10 seconds anyway- and if he can’t kill you off during that 10 seconds, he may as well have just let you stomp him.

IMHO, if you leave combat after using Vengeance while in PvE, you rally.

Sarrs.4831:

I might agree with baseline Sweet Revenge in PvE, but definitely not in PvP. Hammer is nasty enough as it is without one of the immunity-stomps, and if you’re hit by a well-timed hammer while you’re trying to stomp, you have to fight him for another 10 seconds anyway- and if he can’t kill you off during that 10 seconds, he may as well have just let you stomp him.

IMHO, if you leave combat after using Vengeance while in PvE, you rally.

You can’t balance it around 1v1. Make it 2v1 and the Warrior can’t do jack to prevent a stomping. Warrior downed state is pretty much useless in any PvP setting against more than one opponent.

We need an AoE knockdown, like how the Guardian downed state has a AoE knockback.

it shouldnt result in death,i agree

Either:

Make Sweet Vengeance baseline and turn the trait into a cooldown reduction
or
Add a cooldown reduction to Sweet Vengeance
or
Leave SW the way it is, but halve the cooldown on Vengeance

Elementalists used to have the worst down state, because Mist Form was on a longish cooldown (7-10 seconds), and they would get stomped before being able to use it. Now they have one of the best, because theirs is actually usable.

Warriors need the same.

To everyone who thinks it’s not useful in PvP I say:

Teamfights…

The only change I see as being important to warrior downed state is that hammer toss should be replaced with an AoE knockdown ability similar to the Guardian’s, just without the launch. This would allow warriors to escape multistomping and it would make warriors a greater threat when in a team’s face as once they were downed they would fire off an AoE disable.

Well, I use vengeance only when I’m about to die, but I really think it’s useless, but I noticed you don’t ALWAYS die

If you manage to KILL the opponent who downed you while in vengeance, it seems to me that there’s a chance the “vengeance” will go away.

There were a couple of times where I used vengeance, killed my opponent, and then waited to die and I didn’t die, and I saw that the vengeance icons was no longer on my “boons”.

natanfk.1649:

Well, I use vengeance only when I’m about to die, but I really think it’s useless, but I noticed you don’t ALWAYS die

If you manage to KILL the opponent who downed you while in vengeance, it seems to me that there’s a chance the “vengeance” will go away.

There were a couple of times where I used vengeance, killed my opponent, and then waited to die and I didn’t die, and I saw that the vengeance icons was no longer on my “boons”.

By default, if you kill an enemy during vengeance, then you have a small chance to stay alive. If you trait for it (sweet revenge), then you have a 100% chance to stay alive if you kill an enemy.

It’s a great skill in PvE, but I find it next to useless in PvP just like the rest of our downed skills.

LOCO.1785:

natanfk.1649:

Well, I use vengeance only when I’m about to die, but I really think it’s useless, but I noticed you don’t ALWAYS die

If you manage to KILL the opponent who downed you while in vengeance, it seems to me that there’s a chance the “vengeance” will go away.

There were a couple of times where I used vengeance, killed my opponent, and then waited to die and I didn’t die, and I saw that the vengeance icons was no longer on my “boons”.

By default, if you kill an enemy during vengeance, then you have a small chance to stay alive. If you trait for it (sweet revenge), then you have a 100% chance to stay alive if you kill an enemy.

It’s a great skill in PvE, but I find it next to useless in PvP just like the rest of our downed skills.

Yeah, in that point I really agree with you, is very difficult to kill someone on pvp while returning by vengeance. The only good skill is the 2 (don’t know its name) that can buy you some time if you stun your enemy for time enough for your allies to heal you

Hammer Toss/Throw is pointless if you’re fighting more than one opponent. If you’re up against two, you’re a guaranteed stomp.

from what i gather a lot of people posting in this thread are of the opinion that they need a skill that gives them a guaranteed interrupt when someone tries to stomp them.

that’s a great sentiment and all, maybe you should get together with the engineers and discuss down state skills.

I like the ideas, but I think you’ll find other classes whining about how OP it is. With an AoE knockback, and even leaving Vengeance where it is for CD. Basically if you manage to down a warrior, they are GUARANTEED to get get back up, instantly healing to half health. In a close battle this is the tide turner, as most warriors are burst build this gives them the chance to burst yet again. IMO… It’d be overpowered.