Guild Wars 2

I believe the Vitality Tree needs a little work, especially the 5/15/25 abilities, they just seem crap compared to almost every other traits in the game, nobody needs help rezzing, rezzing is usually done once the fights over, and in the middle of battle, 10% faster rezzing isn’t going to matter much.

I recently redid this.

5: Determined Revival: Gain Protection for 2 seconds after a dodge roll ends or reviving an ally.

15: Fast Healer: All Regenerating healing effects are increased by 33%.

25: Vanguard: Increases revive speed and damage reduction for every boon on you. (6% Revive Speed, 3% damage reduction per boon on the warrior.) [for example, if I had three boons on my warrior, I would have 18% revive speed, 9% damage reduction.]

I redid it a bit, I believe this will be much better for everyone, now the traits have dual functions, but go with what I believe what was originally intended, for this to be a combat healer.

5: Determined Revival: When I go to revive someone, I’m usually rolling to them, then rezzing, the roll gives me immunity, and its not like i’m rolling when I revive someone, so I usually burn it before I do.

15: Fast Healer: With Healing banners, this will make healing downed allies faster anyways.

25: Vanguard: Warriors don’t get access to damage reduction or a lot of boons besides three, I believe that this is a very fair trait, because it gives the warrior a sort of tank role when they use banners or shouts, which is completely fair, since there are other traits for example that add vigor or other buffs when you use shouts, which is why I would love it in this tree. I mean, they are gonna need it if they go into a zerg and attempt to revive somebody.

Plus it makes sense:
vanguard
n vanguard [?v?nga?d]
1 the part of an army going in front of the main body.
2 the leaders in any movement We’re in the vanguard of the movement for reform!

Going in and reviving allies, notice how you get protection when you revive allies with trait ‘5’ as well.

It is already one of my favourite trees due to Shout healing and Boon duration, but yeah, the Minor Traits need some work.

To explain why I made them like I did:

Vanguard: Warriors always seem in the front, but they are usually the ones killed first, Vanguard means pretty much “The foremost or leading position in a trend or movement.” Why Regeneration? because it doesn’t seem that overpowered compared to other boons, but its a boon warriors lack when they spec down anything but banners. Plus it goes well with the flavor term Vanguard.

Unstoppable Force: Warriors I believe, should be the masters of self regeneration, we don’t have fancy healing abilitys and we don’t have much stopping us when we are being wailed on with lots of bleeds and poisons (I hate poison more then anything…) Warriors are very squishy, a lot squishier then people take us for, but this is because of mostly those poisons. (I seriously hate poison…) This is a fair hard counter to this.

Juggernaut: Very overpowered, but also underpowered, it has potential to be devastating, and potential to not do anything, it just depends on how you build your character, however if you build glass cannonish you won’t get much from it, it gets a tick for each time you are healed, I don’t know how a trait like this would work in real pvp, but I would love to see something like it, especially for warrior. (you pretty much have to get hurt, and then live for several seconds to get any benefit.)

(I recently changed Juggernaut to only affect the damage of melee weapons.)

Tactics tree gives traits that boost longbow damage and range, where is logic to boost its minor trait for melee?

kRiza krimos.1637:

Tactics tree gives traits that boost longbow damage and range, where is logic to boost its minor trait for melee?

Tactics tree also gives Vitality, which is a defensive trait, which is much more important when you’re meleeing the faces of mobs as compared to being at ranged. (Although honestly you’re going to be dropping into melee range to get the most out of the longbow anyway)

In regards to the actual topic, while I agree the minor traits are kind of bad, these changes are way too strong. Especially Juggernaut, with all the regeneration ticks you’d be putting out you’d always be at +25% damage which is ridiculous.
I’d say leave the 5 point trait as it is right now, +400 toughness while reviving, then replace the 15 and 25 with Vanguard (nerfed to 3s of regen, you dodge roll pretty often and then it wouldn’t make traited banner regen useless for you) and Unstoppable Force (nerfed to 20%, 50% is way too much of an increase)

Your suggestions are way to much. The major traits are some of the strongest straits available to warriors (In a PvE context). The static bonus of +30% boon duration is also strong.

Daecollo.9578:

I believe the Vitality Tree needs a little work, especially the 5/15/25 abilities, they just seem crap compared to almost every other traits in the game, nobody needs help rezzing, rezzing is usually done once the fights over, and in the middle of battle, 10% faster rezzing isn’t going to matter much.

If you’re just going to run straight past downed players then I don’t think you’re going to be very popular.

I’d say there’s a bit of a question mark over Determined Revival, as it’s best to avoid rezzing whilst you’ve got some aggro, but sometimes it’s absolutely necessary and a free +150 toughness is very helpful.

If you asked a downed player if they’d want to be back on their feet 10% faster and they’d be very happy to.

The only thing I’m not that happy with is Reviver’s Might. A single stack of Might to nearby allies isn’t a great reward for such a heavy investment in that line – especially when you compare it to the fact I’m already giving everyone permanent 3xMight with FGJ.

Reviver’s Protection – Grants Protection during the reviving animation.

:D

CorliCorso.6254:

Daecollo.9578:

I believe the Vitality Tree needs a little work, especially the 5/15/25 abilities, they just seem crap compared to almost every other traits in the game, nobody needs help rezzing, rezzing is usually done once the fights over, and in the middle of battle, 10% faster rezzing isn’t going to matter much.

If you’re just going to run straight past downed players then I don’t think you’re going to be very popular.

I’d say there’s a bit of a question mark over Determined Revival, as it’s best to avoid rezzing whilst you’ve got some aggro, but sometimes it’s absolutely necessary and a free +150 toughness is very helpful.

If you asked a downed player if they’d want to be back on their feet 10% faster and they’d be very happy to.

The only thing I’m not that happy with is Reviver’s Might. A single stack of Might to nearby allies isn’t a great reward for such a heavy investment in that line – especially when you compare it to the fact I’m already giving everyone permanent 3xMight with FGJ.

It would be much easier to rez downed players if we had a lot more stable bodys, 10% revive speed won’t help downed players as much as throwing down a banner/giving them regeneration and then helping them up.

Jzaku.9765:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Tactics tree gives traits that boost longbow damage and range, where is logic to boost its minor trait for melee?

Tactics tree also gives Vitality, which is a defensive trait, which is much more important when you’re meleeing the faces of mobs as compared to being at ranged. (Although honestly you’re going to be dropping into melee range to get the most out of the longbow anyway)

In regards to the actual topic, while I agree the minor traits are kind of bad, these changes are way too strong. Especially Juggernaut, with all the regeneration ticks you’d be putting out you’d always be at +25% damage which is ridiculous.
I’d say leave the 5 point trait as it is right now, +400 toughness while reviving, then replace the 15 and 25 with Vanguard (nerfed to 3s of regen, you dodge roll pretty often and then it wouldn’t make traited banner regen useless for you) and Unstoppable Force (nerfed to 20%, 50% is way too much of an increase)

That depends, for Juggernaut it would not instantly put you at 25% Melee Damage, at most with all the healing traits, you would be getting 2% per second, then every 3 seconds you would be getting another 1% (the traited heal heals for a lot, but only heals every 3 seconds.) so at most you would be getting 2.3% per second, which would take about 12 seconds to get your healing up to get that 25%.

Also, that means you would have to be using healing signet, which is a reduction in itself, since it heals for much less then the other healing abilities (8k no cond removal.), (6k, condition removal.). Even with the 50% Regeneration.

Its the fact that it would take 12-22 seconds in a pvp fight to really get good, and then when your out of the fight, you have to start over again. (When your at max hp, you stop healing, so when the fight ends, the stacks go away, you have to get into the fight again and survive another 12-22 seconds of combat to get it up.)

Warriors go down pretty fast because we don’t really have anything that clears conditions quickly over a long period, so I usually have tons of .. poison on me all the time, which really hurts!

Its only melee damage, it doesn’t go on your traits either, but it is a big bonus. With it though comes a big penalty, its not instantly given to you, you have to earn it by living, most other traits are just handed to you, having a trait that gives you damage on sustaining the fight probably means your not gonna be stacking anything but a lot of toughness, warriors don’t have protection unless they have a friend, so we go down pretty fast when focused on with pretty much anything.

Remember, each second in a PvP fight matters. This is also counting you using every available heal the warrior has to get as much out of it, I don’t know anyone who would or could do that without sacrificing a lot of damage anyways. (You probably sacrificed way more then 25% damage speccing for it, and thats instant, lol.) [Remember, Warrior has damage traits all over the place]

I agree that a Warrior needs more sources of selfhealing, grating a reggenboon would be a option..
However 6 seconds seem a bit much. Remember that you can dodge twice and regain endurance faster with signet or Burstkills (besides other sources like other players)

also bear in mind that 6 seconds can easily be extended by buffduration by at least 80 percent (50runes 30 traits) which equals a reggen uptime of 21 seconds with a full endurancebar.. so its has 100% uptime. This sounds massiv overpowered to me but I wouldnt complain because Warrior is my favorite class.

Also why does Juggernaut only work on “MELEE”? I cant recall of any trait rune or sigil that makes a difference between melee and ranged attacks. Should be on all attacks imo.
Also this mechanic might get abused by standing in aoe stuff and use traited healsignet to have a high and fast proccchance.

50% on regeneration sound much too. According to wiki reggen heals for about 244 HP each second with base healingpower. so 366 HpS ontop of adrenal healt and healingskill seems very much.

Dont get me wrong I support people coming up with new ideas to make my class more fun but I doubt that changes like that will make it into the game.

But I like the reggen on dodge idea.. just need to be reduced to 3 or 2 seconds or so.

Monki.5012:

I agree that a Warrior needs more sources of selfhealing, grating a reggenboon would be a option..
However 6 seconds seem a bit much. Remember that you can dodge twice and regain endurance faster with signet or Burstkills (besides other sources like other players)

also bear in mind that 6 seconds can easily be extended by buffduration by at least 80 percent which equals a reggen uptime of 21 seconds with a full endurancebar.. so its has 100% uptime. This sounds massiv overpowered to me but I wouldnt complain because Warrior is my favorite class.

Also why does Juggernaut only work on “MELEE”? I cant recall of any trait rune or sigil that makes a difference between melee and ranged attacks. Should be on all attacks imo.
Also this mechanic might get abused by standing in aoe stuff and use traited healsignet to have a high and fast proccchance.

50% on regeneration sound much too. According to wiki reggen heals for about 244 HP each second with base healingpower. so 366 HpS ontop of adrenal healt and healingskill seems very much.

Dont get me wrong I support people coming up with new ideas to make my class more fun but I doubt that changes like that will make it into the game.

But I like the reggen on dodge idea.. just need to be reduced to 3 or 2 seconds or so.

355 every second if you think about it, isn’t much, and it heals for 208 per second, so that would be 312.

If you count that it does not heal conditions like poison or bleeding as well… (I hate poison…)

The reason its Melee only is because of the way it works, if it effected range then it would be a lot easier to abuse, you could just stay back take some hits and heal up for that easy 25% range damage boost, since its melee damage only, you have to be up in the fight and taking hits and trying to stay alive, this makes it much worse, and better at the same time, that is why its so high.

Juggernaut by description is: An overwhelming, advancing force that crushes or seems to crush everything in its path. (Does not seem like something you could use as a ranged weapon.)

Because its Melee only, a glass cannon spec could not really benefit from it.

Also, there are plenty of traits that benefit melee only.

Daecollo, you are completely right.
The tactics minor traits are pathetic and I like the idea behind your suggestion.

For my nitpick on your first minor trait: I think we should compare it to other “on dodge” abilities. The ranger and thief can get boons when they dodge that I think give us a good idea on how much regeneration ours should give.

Companion’s Defense:
“You and your pet gain 2 seconds of protection when you dodge roll.”

Expeditious Dodger
“Gain 2 seconds of swiftness on evade.”

So for it to be balanced I believe we also would only get 2 seconds of regeneration.

Vanguard
“Gain 2 seconds of regeneration when you dodge roll.”

As for your next two I don’t think your suggestions make as much sense. The tactics tree is about boons and the warrior’s various support abilities (bannerse, shouts and the warhorn). In this case the minor traits should follow this theme in some way and turn the tactics traited warrior into a leader on the battlefield which is why I think your vanguard minor trait is such a good idea. It allows the warrior to be the first into the battle and helps them survive that initial burst from enemies similar to thick skin.

Daecollo.9578:

Also, there are plenty of traits that benefit melee only.

For example?

also:
5 + (1.5625 * Level) + (0.125 * Healing Power)
5+ 125+114,5 [916 healingpower basevalue) @ lvl 80
=244,5 HpS

*1,5 [50%]
=366,75 HpS whith the 50% trait.

+208 Healingsignet
+120 adrenal health
= 694,75 passiv healing each second
which is quite alot and if you add healingpower it would be much more. add a shouthealbuilt and you are quite unstoppable.

Who said something about conditions? Of course reggen cant cure conditions.. dunno why you talk about condition now.

I wouldnt mind if juggernaut works at range. Bow does low damage and the only dangerous thing about rifle is the burst. If you get hit by that in PvP you did it wrong. In PvE every +damage supports the party.

Why wouldnt a glasscannon benefit from it? If he survive that one fatal blow he benefits from reggen. More thoughness would smoothen out the curve and makes reggen more attractive though..

Again I am not saying that I dont like your or your idea.. I just wanted to point out the flaws so we can come up with a more realistic solution.

Monki.5012:

Daecollo.9578:

Also, there are plenty of traits that benefit melee only.

For example?

also:
5 + (1.5625 * Level) + (0.125 * Healing Power)
5+ 125+114,5 [916 healingpower basevalue) @ lvl 80
=244,5 HpS

*1,5 [50%]
=366,75 HpS whith the 50% trait.

+208 Healingsignet
+120 adrenal health
= 694,75 passiv healing each second
which is quite alot and if you add healingpower it would be much more. add a shouthealbuilt and you are quite unstoppable.

Who said something about conditions? Of course reggen cant cure conditions.. dunno why you talk about condition now.

I wouldnt mind if juggernaut works at range. Bow does low damage and the only dangerous thing about rifle is the burst. If you get hit by that in PvP you did it wrong. In PvE every +damage supports the party.

Why wouldnt a glasscannon benefit from it? If he survive that one fatal blow he benefits from reggen. More thoughness would smoothen out the curve and makes reggen more attractive though..

Again I am not saying that I dont like your or your idea.. I just wanted to point out the flaws so we can come up with a more realistic solution.

Yes, but you give up 30 traits to do that, those could of went into dps, thats pretty much -30% damage to gain a little more of something you already have, you spent 30 trait points to make your 500 hps 800, so to be honest, fairly, thats a good trade off.

The reason it wouldn’t really benefit a glass cannon is this: You start out with 0% when the fight starts.

You get damaged, AND then you start to heal, that means after the fight starts, you start actually getting 2%-3% every second.

The main reason it sucks it, Glass Cannon specs are usually about bursting down your opponent quickly in a short amount of time. (100b/bullsrush.) won’t really get benefit from it, because you would start at 0%.

its my second favorite tree to go down (first being defensive).
The 400 toughness boost and 10% revive speed is great, although trait 25 is a bit useless but the others are great as long as you aren’t going glass cannon.

I like the first two Minor Traits and feel them when I play in WvW. The 25 seems bad to me unless you’re with a team that keeps Might stacking anyway. 1 stack Might for 12 seconds just isn’t something I desire. Shouldn’t it be Aegis or Protection or something? Most people I rez get up and run away from the fight, not back into it.

To me Tactics is one of those lines that has some really sick major traits, but drawbacks on the minor traits compared to other trait sets and for good reason. You have to consciously think about diversifying your build because the traits are good but aren’t so good that you’d instantly want to spec into them. Do you go for more supportive role for your team? Or more damage? At 25 Revivers Might is a compliment by itself but at 30 You gain access to very powerful support abilities. Do you commit those 10 extra points into Tactics or put it somewhere else? I personally like the fact that we have to ask these questions and not just spec into a trait line on a whim.

It defy needs some improvement (mainly minor traits). Some major traits are pretty good and the bono duration + vitality is nice as well! I like some of your ideas btw. I think Juggernaut is a bit too complicated tho. You need something that is easyer to understand for everyone. And because they are minor traits i would make them less good. My idea/change is:

5 – “Regen for 3 seconds on dodge roll” (like that idea a lot)
15 – “Regen lasts 25% longer”(less good but don’t forget allies can give regen as well!)
25 – You revive allies 25% faster (Very nice imo just needed some number tweaking!!)

I like the idea of having protection while reviving awesome as well.

I got a few
5- Take no damage, ever
15 – Deal 1000% Additional damage while health is above 1
25 – Increases magic find by 1000%

Ok maby they are a little OP but not as crazy OP as some of the suggestions being thrown out there.

Kazin.2073:

I got a few
5- Take no damage, ever
15 – Deal 1000% Additional damage while health is above 1
25 – Increases magic find by 1000%

Ok maby they are a little OP but not as crazy OP as some of the suggestions being thrown out there.

Explain your words please, I would really like to hear your intelligent breakdown of whats overpowered and underpowered.

Good thing someone actually understands that Tactics need a complete rework.

Daecollo.9578:

I believe the Vitality Tree needs a little work, especially the 5/15/25 abilities, they just seem crap compared to almost every other traits in the game, nobody needs help rezzing, rezzing is usually done once the fights over, and in the middle of battle, 10% faster rezzing isn’t going to matter much.

5: Vanguard: Gain Regeneration for 6 seconds after a dodge roll.
15: Unstoppable Force: All Regeneration effects are increased by 50%.
25: Juggernaut: MELEE Damage is increased by 1% for 12 seconds each time you are healed, stacks up to 25%. (if you are at max health, you do not get healed by anything.)

Let me explain 15:
Regeneration is increased by 50%.

This Effects:
“Regeneration” the boon.
“Adrenal Health” the trait.
“Healing Signet” the heal.

This turns the vitality line into a useful buff tree, but you don’t feel like your screwing yourself with useless 5/10/15 traits, the traits are not overpowered unless you ignore the warrior and let him heal.

Of course, I want all opinions good or bad, because I can edit it.

So you went from some of the worst traits (and don’t pretend like only warrior has them) to the most OP minor traits in the game, bar none? Good job.

Yaki.9563:

Daecollo.9578:

I believe the Vitality Tree needs a little work, especially the 5/15/25 abilities, they just seem crap compared to almost every other traits in the game, nobody needs help rezzing, rezzing is usually done once the fights over, and in the middle of battle, 10% faster rezzing isn’t going to matter much.

5: Vanguard: Gain Regeneration for 6 seconds after a dodge roll.
15: Unstoppable Force: All Regeneration effects are increased by 50%.
25: Juggernaut: MELEE Damage is increased by 1% for 12 seconds each time you are healed, stacks up to 25%. (if you are at max health, you do not get healed by anything.)

Let me explain 15:
Regeneration is increased by 50%.

This Effects:
“Regeneration” the boon.
“Adrenal Health” the trait.
“Healing Signet” the heal.

This turns the vitality line into a useful buff tree, but you don’t feel like your screwing yourself with useless 5/10/15 traits, the traits are not overpowered unless you ignore the warrior and let him heal.

Of course, I want all opinions good or bad, because I can edit it.

So you went from some of the worst traits (and don’t pretend like only warrior has them) to the most OP minor traits in the game, bar none? Good job.

Explain how they are overpowered.

50% Regeneration Potency brings regeneration up from 300 to 550 hps, sacrificing almost 30+15 points to make it powerful, that is points your not putting into DPS by the way, and you also sacrifice a condition removal to get adrenal health signet, which is the worst warrior heal. I guess that is overpowered, losing almost 30-40% dps to increase a little healing, sounds balanced to me.

Juggernaut isn’t that powerful unless the Warrior has a lot of survivability, which he already would give tons of DPS for, and has to use healing banners anyways to get most of it.

Actually, its a pretty interesting mechanic, the longer the warrior lives in a fight, the more damage he gets, but if hes squishy, he might get maybe, 3-5% damage from the trait?

err… 6 seconds of regeneration is a little much… maybe down to 4 or 3 seconds.

Redid the Traits above.

that trait 25 is amazing! I’m an ele healer and I heal allies about 1-3 times a second! So that’s why we ran through CoF so quickly… Had two wariors in my team and I kept healing them which means both of ‘m were doing around 25% more dmg plus I gave ’m 6 extra might while one of ’m already had 20ish might XD Add in a thief and y’r an unstoppable freight-train…
Was wondering why, now I know. Thanks!!!

Protection on dodge roll is a nifty idea, but that’s not a level 5 trait, that’s a level 25 trait. That’s a huge game changer. If it’s at level 5 just about every non-glass cannon build will probably grab it.

robocafaz.9017:

Protection on dodge roll is a nifty idea, but that’s not a level 5 trait, that’s a level 25 trait. That’s a huge game changer. If it’s at level 5 just about every non-glass cannon build will probably grab it.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Companion%27s_Defense

Their 15 trait gives both them and there pet 2 seconds of protection, and its not a 25 trait.

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

that trait 25 is amazing!
…
Was wondering why, now I know. Thanks!!!

This is a suggestion thread warriors don’t have any of this..

We currently have:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_warrior_traits#Tactics

Daecollo.9578:

5: Determined Revival: Gain Protection for 2 seconds after a dodge roll ends or reviving an ally.

Protection on a dodge roll in one way makes a lot of sense. Warriors are supposed to be mobile piles of armor. However with the way armor gives diminishing returns 33% damage reduction for a character who starts with 3500 armor is a phenomenally larger bonus than to someone who starts off which much lower like the ranger.

Plus, this the the vitality tree so I don’t think it makes a lot of sense to give an armor boon on top of the fact that armor isn’t a problem for warriors. We have armor. We need healing. What was so nice behind the idea of gaining regen on dodge is it helped out warriors in an area that they were weakest in.

Daecollo.9578:

15: Fast Healer: All Regenerating healing effects are increased by 33%.

My instinct is that this is just too powerful for a minor trait. I think something like this would make more sense:
“You have a 20% chance to gain regeneration whenever a foe attacks you in melee”

Because of the train line boon duration increase the regen we’d get would already last longer.

Daecollo.9578:

25: Vanguard: Increases revive speed and damage reduction for every boon on you. (6% Revive Speed, 3% damage reduction per boon on the warrior.) [for example, if I had three boons on my warrior, I would have 18% revive speed, 9% damage reduction.]

Why would the warrior get something that’s so focused on boons? This seems much more like a guardian grandmaster major trait. Remember 9% damage reduction on a 3500 armored person is very, very powerful.

Why not take this opportunity to tie it to adreneline?
Vanguard
“Increases revive speed based on adrenaline.”

or

“Revive speed increases as your health decreases.”

This way we either get something tied to our core mechanic or an actual reason to keep reviving people even while under fire instead of stopping to try and scrape together some boons.

^
Do you honestly think people are going to enjoy being a “revive bot” with your idea of reworking the tactics tree?

The OP’s suggestions might need some of it to get toned down but he IS on the right track on reworking the tactics tree.

When you spec for “Tankiness” misleading traits such as revival should just go away because this is NOT an efficient way of making tactics work.

I do believe there are those out there who enjoy traits that are team focused and let them feel like they bring something uniquely beneficial to the group.

The tactics line has many group supporting traits and it only makes sense for the minor traits to reflect that in some way. The defense line is much better suited to traits that make only the warrior alone tougher.

^
K you kinda have a point there.

The reason I said boons, is because then its more of a team thing, the warrior in the vitality tree has access to a lot of boons and boon duration, especially with warhorn, but this means he will be doing a lot less damage and helping his teammates.

There are a lot of classes that grant boons, especially ones when people go down or are about to go down, that is why getting revive speed for each team makes it more of a team effort then anything, it does however mean some classes will probably get revived faster, but that makes sense as well, reviving should be a team effort, but the traits have double effects so the warrior has a chance to GET to his target to revive him first.

Yes warriors have armor, but anyone with toughness can get 3000+ armor, warriors however don’t have the CC or Bleeding/Poison Protection other classes have access to and take for granted, Guardian for example one of there traits gives “When you revive an ally, you both gain aegis, protection, and regeneration for 10 seconds.” this can be a MINOR trait, and its pretty much better then all three of the Warrior traits combined, and they are also a heavy armored class.

These traits make sense, and I implore you to read them all carefully, I think they are very well balanced.

To be honest, I would argue that warriors 5/15/25 traits are all worse then that one trait guardian receives.

“Yes warriors have armor, but anyone with toughness can get 3000+ armor, warriors however don’t have the CC or Bleeding/Poison”

It is not easy for other classes to get 3000 armor like it is for the warrior. We have lot’s of crowd control through weapons. Sword, mace and hammer are all focused on this. We also get physical utility skills for extra crowd control. We get lots of bleeding through the sword, some of the highest stacks in the game from one source and we also get burning.

-

The guardian relies on boons to be effective it’s even in their class philosophy:
“The Guardian is a heavy armor class who relies on boons to make up for their low levels of innate health.”

The warrior is not meant to rely on nor have access to the same amount of boons in exchange we get both the highest health and highest armor with high damage:
“We want the Warrior to be capable of good melee damage in a sturdy body. "

It is good to look across classes when figuring out balance to see what is realistic in scope to receive however you have to keep in mind that just because one class gets one thing doesn’t mean the rest should. They are balanced in different ways.

However, it doesn’t matter what either of us decide is balanced or unbalanced what is important is that we agree that the current roster of minor traits for the tactics line is severely lacking and we want to call attention to the relevant parties who have influence over this.

I still think the Tactics trees need changed.

You can’t seriously be suggesting this class needs a buff. Also if you don’t think revive bonuses are good, you don’t get the point of them. It’s excellent in dungeon team play. Also, are you ignoring the fact that the vit tree gives -boon duration- as well, along with the amazing primary traits?

You’re trippin’ dude.

Yes warriors have armor, but anyone with toughness can get 3000+ armor, warriors however don’t have the CC or Bleeding/Poison

Well, except for the arms tree gives massive bleeding and vulnerability bonuses, plus might and all that. Also, funny, I thought the immobilization skill, the immobilize on cripple trait plus the MANY weapon groups that feature cripple, at least 3 knock back utilities some of which are aoe, proper use of banner defense, the massive amounts of stuns/interrupts and weakness inflicting offered by maces, etc. made Warrior easily one of the best CC professions in the game.

Do tell, what other class can cycle 4-5 (3 of which are aoe/wide cone) knock backs + immobilizing cripple and a 4000 damage ranged attack, bleed and vulnerability added on top?

As for your “anyone with toughness can get 3000 armor”. Yeah, great. Tell me again, what happens when a Warrior that can already get 3000 armor easily decides to spec for toughness? Oh yeah, they get a trait that gives them infinite regen whenever their adrenaline is full, a ~10k heal that fills adrenaline to the max, 3x 1.5 k heals + buffs or another type of regen that works at the same time as the previously mentioned adrenaline regen that effects everyone and applies buffs to everyone as well, allowing you to regen at least 4000-6500 hp every 10 seconds if not more and damage reduction that is outright outrageous.

Hey guys let’s buff warriors. Again. Not like they’re already several fold more powerful than other professions. Oh wait….

Sorry to sound so cynical, but it’s silly I can take out entire groups of vets with my level 80 exoed out warrior and yet other professions cannot. Warrior is by far the best and most complete profession in the game. If you don’t believe that, you need to play more of the other professions/read some guides. I can’t help but feel it’s unfair to ask for a reworking like this when other professions don’t even have weapon stats or half their traits working properly.

I like the idea of adding damage reduction based on number of boons. It would be interesting if we had something like Empowered that gives say 2% damage resist for each unique boon, as this would give warriors some well needed mitigation without giving them access to the protection boon. I would also like to see Reviver’s Might changed to Reviver’s Protection and give 3 seconds of protection instead of 12 seconds of might, as it makes more sense that you would want to protect the person whom just rallied to a third or less of their max health as warriors tend to pull aggro with their large defense (which is made even larger by Determined Revival). I think these would add nicely to the idea of party and boon centered play.

kintoun zetto
^ doesnt have a warrior =\

Kintoun Zetto.2651:

You can’t seriously be suggesting this class needs a buff.
Not like they’re already several fold more powerful than other professions. Oh wait….

Sorry to sound so cynical, but it’s silly I can take out entire groups of vets with my level 80 exoed out warrior and yet other professions cannot.

Your post comes off very biased. Warriors are definitely very powerful in the regular open world PvE environment and I don’t think anyone is arguing that. The guardian too can easily solo almost all open world champions and groups of vets. This is what happens to characters with high armor and regen. Regular mobs have a hard time getting through that.

You need to compare these things to higher level play in dungeons, fractals, WvW, and sPvP where the difference between a fully tank focused warrior and a glass cannon warrior becomes being able to take two or three hits and survive compared to being one or two shot. This is where utility becomes much more valuable compared to raw strength. A single wall of reflection, a well placed portal, packets of healing on the ground, a pet to cause a distraction.

Lupi doesn’t care that you can heal 6000 of your 20,000 health when he nearly one shots you. No one cares about 100 blades when you can simply dodge out of it. Sure you can choose a team of warriors but one guardian could of reflected back that assault of projectiles that just wiped you.

And that’s how it should be. Warriors get the best armor type with the highest health pool and high melee damage in exchange for a lack of utility, control, boons, and condition removal. What we get is raw power. That’s our trick.

Two seconds of regen afting dodging won’t stop a warrior from soloing a group of veterans but it will help a warrior stay alive for a couple more seconds when he is the first one to charge in and that’s all we have. Raw power.

The strengths of the different classes can give people more advantages in different areas (and in regard to the warrior’s PvE strength I believe that was by design since they said the warrior would be an easier class for those who are newer at the game) so please consider that before directly comparing the classes.

I am coming back to this topic to say some new ideas I had for the tree:

5: Determination: Gain 6 seconds of Regeneration when your health reaches 75%. (30 second IC.)

15: Determined Revival: Block attacks for 3 seconds while reviving. (12 second IC.)

25: Tactical Roll: Cure a condition when you dodge.

Tactics is a support tree.
Your suggestion are oriented towards self-protection, which is something of the Defense tree. Tactics is not meant to be for self defense and will never be.

Tactics is for -proper- support Warriors, or -bad- Paladin wannabes who think throwing away all utilities and damage for healing 1.2k per shout is the way to go.
I’m not saying you’re one of the latter, but in case you are call the “For great healing!” support group and let them cure you of paladin wannabeness.

Red Falcon.8257:

Tactics is a support tree.
Your suggestion are oriented towards self-protection, which is something of the Defense tree.

If you think Tactics is your survival tree then you got it all wrong sorry; please dont be yet another Paladin wannabe thinking 1.2k heals are your Holy Lights.
Tactics is for -proper- support Warrior, or -bad- Paladin wannabes.

Blocking when you revive someone isn’t a tactical support move? (A very tactical move, putting your shield up or weapon to block attacks as you help your buddy get up.)
How can you be support when your dead? (Your bolstering your bodies defenses to prepare for a little punishment, sounds tactical.)
Curing a Condition when you dodge isn’t tactical? (Your rolling, and curing yourself as you roll.)

I’m sorry, but this isn’t a support tree, its called “Tactics.”
tac·tics (tktks)
n.
1.
a. (used with a sing. verb) The military science that deals with securing objectives set by strategy, especially the technique of deploying and directing troops, ships, and aircraft in effective maneuvers against an enemy: Tactics is a required course at all military academies.
b. (used with a pl. verb) Maneuvers used against an enemy: Guerrilla tactics were employed during most of the war.
2. (used with a sing. or pl. verb) A procedure or set of maneuvers engaged in to achieve an end, an aim, or a goal.

Daecollo.9578:

Blocking when you revive someone isn’t a tactical support move?

Yup, and that was actually a good suggestion.

But the other one that would give you damage reduction is something that would fit Defense, not Tactics.
I’m also not sure you realize how much 3% damage reduction per boon is, mathematically.
3% dmg reduction equals to about 80 toughness.
This means you’d be getting 400 toughness, on a Warrior who usually has 20k health and 2500 armor on average, by simply self-buffing yourself with SoR and another boon (vigor is pretty easy to get).
Using Lyssa runes you’d hit +720 toughness for about 9 seconds every 48.
Now that would be a bit OP considering we easily touch 30% base damage reduction without losing almost any DPS.

I doubt we’ll ever get any form of “Protection” on Warriors unless it’s a skill (we still have to get Watch Yourselves! shout), Anet doesn’t seem to think we need it.

If I had to aim at defense I’d target Block mechanics, since we have so many traits that also benefit from blocking and it seems Anet believes it’s a Warrior-ok mechanic.

Red Falcon.8257:

Daecollo.9578:

Blocking when you revive someone isn’t a tactical support move?

Yup, and that was actually a good suggestion.

But the other one that would give you damage reduction is something that would fit Defense, not Tactics.
I’m also not sure you realize how much 3% damage reduction per boon is, mathematically.
3% dmg reduction equals to about 80 toughness.
This means you’d be getting 400 toughness, on a Warrior who usually has 20k health and 2500 armor on average, by simply self-buffing yourself with SoR and another boon (vigor is pretty easy to get).
Using Lyssa runes you’d hit +720 toughness for about 9 seconds every 48.
Now that would be a bit OP considering we easily touch 30% base damage reduction without losing almost any DPS.

I doubt we’ll ever get any form of “Protection” on Warriors unless it’s a skill (we still have to get Watch Yourselves! shout), Anet doesn’t seem to think we need it.

If I had to aim at defense I’d target Block mechanics, since we have so many traits that also benefit from blocking and it seems Anet believes it’s a Warrior-ok mechanic.

That was a month ago, read todays ideas.

Red Falcon.8257:

Tactics is for -proper- support Warriors, or -bad- Paladin wannabes who think throwing away all utilities and damage for healing 1.2k per shout is the way to go.

Define “proper support warrior” please, I’m genuinely curious. I agree though that shout heals are absolute crap, so are banners and I eyeroll every time I see a new warrior look at them and think the same thing we all probably did at the beginning “Oh man, this sounds really cool and helpful!” before realizing “Oh man, shout heals for crap, the shouts themselves other than fear me are pretty ‘meh’ and banners are clunky crap along with a regen trait that has no point if there is a single ele/guard/engi or ranger nearby”.

Red Falcon.8257:

Tactics is a support tree.
Your suggestion are oriented towards self-protection, which is something of the Defense tree. Tactics is not meant to be for self defense and will never be.

Tactics is for -proper- support Warriors, or -bad- Paladin wannabes who think throwing away all utilities and damage for healing 1.2k per shout is the way to go.
I’m not saying you’re one of the latter, but in case you are call the “For great healing!” support group and let them cure you of paladin wannabeness.

Yes you do have a point when you say Warriors aren’t supposed to be paladins. That does not mean tactics tree doesn’t need a rework because guess what? The minor traits are pathetic. It isn’t aggressive enough, it is for passive play not something a Warrior capitalizes on.

A Warrior that “supports” is simply a class that sets up kills for team mates I.E Immobilize and Stuns. If leg specialist replaced lets say determined revival, that would be one way to give tactics infrastructure.