Guild Wars 2

Defektive.7283:

I find this to be pretty sad.

Warrior Hammer:
1st Attack
Dmg: 746
Range: 130

2nd Attack
Dmg: 746
Range: 130

3rd Attack
Dmg: 995
Range: 130
-Final attack does no special abilities / no combo finisher.

Ele Hammer:

1st Attack
Dmg: 820
Range: 150

2nd Attack
Dmg: 820
Range: 150

3rd Attack
Dmg: 1342
Range: 150
-Blinds enemies that are hit by the attack
-Is a combo finisher (blast)

---

TLDR:
Why is an Ele utility better than a primary Warrior weapon?
-Ele Deals more Damage.
-Ele brings more utility (AoE stun field?!, AoE lightning storm?!).
-Ele has a longer range.
-Ele has a combo finisher and special boon on the third swing.

I’m not saying Ele’s should even use this, I’m saying that the Warrior hammer is just worse.

The answer to your question is:

1: We lose a sigil on equiping a conjure weapon.
2: We need to slot a utility skill to conjure a weapon.
3: We have the lowest HP and Armor in the game so our abilities are better to compensate.
4: Warrior burst is an range AOE stun.

Also, to void your statement that Ele’s damage is higher, did you factor in your Signet of Rage which is up most of the time? How about your higher crit? You need to take a holistic view of both classes and not pick and choose “numbers” to spin it in your favor.

Last but not least. Quit QQing and go play a conjure hammer ele.

Braxxus.2904:

Wildclaw.6073:

still be as survivable as an elementalist

I freaking wish we were.
Dude, d/d ele is beast mode. Yes even after the patch. Quite possibly the only class that can consistantly solo groups of people in wvw (other than thieves abusing the culling issues).

I swear all these eles must run with like 30/30/10/0/0 builds in berserker gear or some crap.

Complaining about ele survivability… that’s like thieves complaining about escape tools. My god.

I think you’re confused. If we’re using lightning hammer, we can’t use our water attunement skills. Thus we lose most of our healing, yeah, a war will have more survivability using the hammer. As for those glass eles you claim to be seeing, they’re like paper when it comes to defense. They can only stay alive thanks to the mobility on d/d, which they also lose if they’re using the hammer. Even with that mobility they’re pretty squishy if you just hit them. The ones that solo npc groups are bunker variants and just whittle down the npcs.

Oh man, the conjured weapons can only be used within 15 skills and it counts even if it misses LMAO.

Navzar.2938:

As for those glass eles you claim to be seeing,
snip
The ones that solo npc groups are bunker variants and just whittle down the npcs.

What in the 9 hells are you talking about? Glass eles? D/D ele’s are far from glass and that was my whole point.

Solo “NPC” groups? I was talking about groups of players. Who gives a flying kitten about NPCs? It’s kind of why I mentioned specifically soloing “groups of players”.

Perhaps more silly ele’s should go talk to the ele squad from PRO on FA and learn how to ele. Watch some videos of how to solo zergs and come away with multiple kills alive and at full health by the end of it.

So as not to be hypocritical I will go watch videos of warriors soloing zergs and coming away victorious….

If they ever exist.

Braxxus.2904:

Navzar.2938:

As for those glass eles you claim to be seeing,
snip
The ones that solo npc groups are bunker variants and just whittle down the npcs.

What in the 9 hells are you talking about? Glass eles? D/D ele’s are far from glass and that was my whole point.

Solo “NPC” groups? I was talking about groups of players. Who gives a flying kitten about NPCs? It’s kind of why I mentioned specifically soloing “groups of players”.

Perhaps more silly ele’s should go talk to the ele squad from PRO on FA and learn how to ele. Watch some videos of how to solo zergs and come away with multiple kills alive and at full health by the end of it.

So as not to be hypocritical I will go watch videos of warriors soloing zergs and coming away victorious….

If they ever exist.

The eles you are talking about are running 0/10/0/30/30 or 0/10/10/20/30. Hardly the glass cannon. A lot of the attack power of this build came from might stacking via evasive arcana which has been gutted in the patch.

No ele in their right mind builds the way you described. If they attempted to take on a zerg they would be killed in an instant.

I agree the ele has great survivability but this is obtained by speccing and gearing for it, not by running a gc build. Also, to repeat, the attack potential of this build has been greatly lessened by the recent patch.

Schwahrheit.4203:

Oh man, the conjured weapons can only be used within 15 skills and it counts even if it misses LMAO.

says the guy who wants to give a buff to the warrior auto-attack.

Braxxus.2904:

Navzar.2938:

As for those glass eles you claim to be seeing,
snip
The ones that solo npc groups are bunker variants and just whittle down the npcs.

What in the 9 hells are you talking about? Glass eles? D/D ele’s are far from glass and that was my whole point.

Solo “NPC” groups? I was talking about groups of players. Who gives a flying kitten about NPCs? It’s kind of why I mentioned specifically soloing “groups of players”.

Perhaps more silly ele’s should go talk to the ele squad from PRO on FA and learn how to ele. Watch some videos of how to solo zergs and come away with multiple kills alive and at full health by the end of it.

So as not to be hypocritical I will go watch videos of warriors soloing zergs and coming away victorious….

If they ever exist.

Braxxus.2904:

I swear all these eles must run with like 30/30/10/0/0 builds in berserker gear or some crap.

Sorry, when I read this, I thought you were complaining about eles using this set up. It was late, so I didn’t really read that right…

In which case… ele bunkers taking down groups of players? LOL maybe if you’re in wvw against five lvl 10s with no skills . As well as they can bunker, there’s no way they could survive a group of equal level players, especially without a full out bunker build, that’s just kitten. Bunker builds STALL not kitten groups. And the part about eles not having survivability, if you would read, is saying that they would be squishy WITH LIGHTNING HAMMER. In case you didn’t realize, they can’t use their water heals, or their aoe kds, or shocking aura with that hammer equiped because it takes away their other skills while it’s on. So no, they won’t have their uber survivability, just what they get from their stats, which will be defensive, and their 2 utility.

Once again D/D is NOT lightning hammer. In lightning hammer, they are indeed far squishier than war by nature.

Navzar.2938:

Once again D/D is NOT lightning hammer. In lightning hammer, they are indeed far squishier than war by nature.

I do understand this. I also understand that ele’s would not and do not use the conjured weapons. I do have an ele, I switched to ele after being disgusted with how warrior gameplay and lack of viable builds besides trying to find some new and innovative way to set up… HB.

The entire point that was being made in this thread originally was how EVEN a conjured weapon follows what appears to be the standard model design for weapon properties with an effect attached to the primary skill. I mentioned this before and Defektive appeared to agree that it was the overall point he was trying to make. Worded a bit poorly? Perhaps. But the point is still there and it’s still valid.

Why it degenerated into some fantasy statement about wanting ele’s nerfed and all the other crap is silly and irrelevant a fabricated result of … paranoia and jealousy? It makes no sense.

And yes I get your point about the “bunker build”, however I find it more than capable of scoring kills, both 1v1 vs ANYONE and in attacking groups to snipe a few kills while being able to ESCAPE afterwards. Thief is the only other class I’ve seen inherently have all the tools necessary to do this consistently but thief takes no skill to play while ele’s do so it’s pretty fair for the ele.

I like my warrior and I’ll constantly want to play him, however ele class design has me hooked because it has everything you can possibly need. Heals baked into the design naturally, protection abilities, movement abilities, spike abilities, etc etc. So I play my ele far more nowadays. It has all bases covered. It’s a showcase in proper class design.
This is why I don’t understand the ele complaints when ele’s by design are boss. And yes I’m talking about WvW anymore because the meta and lack of build viability, along with class balance/desirability level left me disheartened about tourney play. WvW just has the fun factor though and it’s entertaining enough for me to spend my time with.

^
Not the greatest ele video but it’s a good one just to highlight the potential of the class and the toolset at it’s disposal. Warriors just don’t have videos like this out there because the toolset is lacking. There is 1 weapon and 1 ability that get’s everything else setting it up to allow a warrior to spike someone and think “ohhh, this class is good!” but that’s it. Once you get past that you can see the lost potential of the class reflected from classes with better overall design. Many of us would be happy to take a gimmicky spike nerf to have the utility, synergy and function of the class reworked to allow for this higher potential.

The complaints about ele are mainly because they get the biggest nerfs without any buffs as compensations. They definitely are some of the most fun to play, but they’re also statistically weaker in many regards, not by a large margin, but enough to make some players feel like they’re being punished for playing a class they enjoy by making it weaker.

The main problem with the arguement is that you keep saying things like “even a conjured weapon” and how they’re better, which makes it seem as if you’re disconnecting the weapon with the elementalist it has to be on. Even if the weapon itself is better, the fact it has to be on an elementalist brings it back down.

I think what you’re looking for isn’t necessarily more extra effects, but rather more choices in play style, and for a higher skill ceiling? Elementalists by nature have the highest skill ceiling due to the high volume of abilities (which are diluted in exchange), making it much more important to know your skills, position, etc as well as giving them more areas to spec into and focus on, because more skills= more creative ways to play. The aggravating part is that you’re usually weaker than someone with the same skill level as you until you get to higher skill thresholds (excluding bunkering anyway, but that was nerfed.)

So to see if I’m getting this right- In short, you think you’re skills are boring/inflexible?

Mmm, the problem with trying to do more with hammer is that it already does so much. Looking at it as straight damage is a little misleading. It has 3 interrupts, a knockdown, knockback, and stun. The knockback and stun are aoe and the stun comes at the end of a gap closer. It has defense in the form of weakness. It has an AOE cripple. And its attack chain is of course AOE. All of this while still putting out still respectable damage.

Now, if you trait for it you will do 25% more damage to disabled foes, which will be in good supply considering its skills, while gaining some pretty snappy cds. Really it boils down to not grading every weapon solely on their base dps. It’s clear that the hammer is a control weapon and control is pretty powerful by itself. Combine this with a traited mace/shield or mace/mace and you become a stun/kd/interrupt/defense machine that’s impossible to go toe to toe against unless your enemy has good stability + burst or defiant in pve. There are simply not enough cantrips in the game to deal with it.

Altogether I’d say hammer does just about everything we’d expect from GW1. As far as the attack chain’s final skill, I’d say it’s mostly fine, it does have an added effect in 360 AOE making it easier to hit with even though it’s not exactly something you’d beg for in pvp. But I don’t think adding a blast finisher to it would be too much, in fact I’d say that’s all it needs.

Can we compare Fiery Greatsword to Warrior Greatsword next? Then can we do the axe and the longbow?

Also, I don’t think the lightning hammer has Earthshaker, which means I don’t care about it.

Navzar.2938:

The main problem with the arguement is that you keep saying things like “even a conjured weapon” and how they’re better

It’s not so much a “it’s better” as “it follows one of the pretty standard models” as in the primary attack chain does SOMETHING. That’s all. I don’t use conjures on my ele for the same reason you probably don’t… it’s freaking crap on an ele.

Navzar.2938:

I think what you’re looking for isn’t necessarily more extra effects, but rather more choices in play style, and for a higher skill ceiling?
snip
So to see if I’m getting this right- In short, you think you’re skills are boring/inflexible?

Only speaking for me here but god kitten right. Seriously this has been my recurring theme throughout my posting on warriors. However it’s a different issue not really pertaining to the point of this thread…

*But yes you nailed my biggest gripe about the class. Love my ele. Just wish he was an armor wearing, weapon using, no divine/arcane power superhero. Just a man. Like the punisher or some crap (engi’s get to claim batman, they even have the utility belt)

aka: A warrior. Thematically. Functionally I love the ele mechanics as it reminds me of how warriors have and should be with stance dancing (my prot warrior), aura twisting (chosen: WAR) and manifest molding (bear shaman: AoC… basically what our hammer/shout healer build SHOULD be like)*

vox.5019:

But I don’t think adding a blast finisher to it would be too much, in fact I’d say that’s all it needs.

That’s really the whole point. Not a buff in damage or anything else. Simply exactly what you said.

Recently.1043:

Ele hammer = best hammer skin in game.

That alone is OP!

Talking about THIS hammer?

Palinois.1064:

Recently.1043:

Ele hammer = best hammer skin in game.

That alone is OP!

Talking about THIS hammer?

1 Eldritch Scroll
100 Mystic Coin
250 Charged Lodestone
1 Gift of Lightning

EWWWWWWW look at all that PvE…

Defektive.7283:

As a Warrior play from day 1 I can tell you, the fact that we really don’t have any other build available to us to compete with at the same level as the standard GC is extremely disheartening.

as a warrior who has played since day one, you haven’t put much effort into trying out many builds, have you?

You have 70 trait points, 5 trait lines, 50 trait skills to choose from, 3 main hand weapons, 2 off hand weapons, 2 two hand weapons, and 2 ranged weapons to experiment with, a schwack load of skills to fine tune, 2 asuran fur coats, and a partridge in a pear tree to work with.

GS is not the only available/viable spec at any level.

that said ….

Braxxus.2904:

Thematically. Functionally I love the ele mechanics as it reminds me of how warriors have and should be with stance dancing (my prot warrior), aura twisting (chosen: WAR) and manifest molding (bear shaman: AoC… basically what our hammer/shout healer build SHOULD be like)*

i would give my kitten’s left hairball to have stance dancing again.

If we’re doing silly one for one comparisons like this, my Ele would love to know which one I pick up that does as much damage as 100b. :p

nakoda.4213:

Defektive.7283:

As a Warrior play from day 1 I can tell you, the fact that we really don’t have any other build available to us to compete with at the same level as the standard GC is extremely disheartening.

as a warrior who has played since day one, you haven’t put much effort into trying out many builds, have you?

You have 70 trait points, 5 trait lines, 50 trait skills to choose from, 3 main hand weapons, 2 off hand weapons, 2 two hand weapons, and 2 ranged weapons to experiment with, a schwack load of skills to fine tune, 2 asuran fur coats, and a partridge in a pear tree to work with.

GS is not the only available/viable spec at any level.

that said ….

Braxxus.2904:

Thematically. Functionally I love the ele mechanics as it reminds me of how warriors have and should be with stance dancing (my prot warrior), aura twisting (chosen: WAR) and manifest molding (bear shaman: AoC… basically what our hammer/shout healer build SHOULD be like)*

i would give my kitten’s left hairball to have stance dancing again.

Actually, if you looked around the forum a bit you’d see that I actually put up many non-GS builds.

From a tPvP perspective however, you’re only crippling yourself if you’re not GS.

Simply, that’s what I was saying.

I think it got overlooked on the previous page: The Ele’s hammer takes up a utility slot, so you need to compare the Warrior’s hammer + a Warrior utility against it. Would you give up your favorite utility in order to get your hammer buffed?

On top of that, a Warrior can use a hammer, switch to another weapon set, then switch back to hammer, while an Ele loses the hammer if they want to “switch”. Perhaps if the Warrior weapon switch cooldown was lengthened to the cooldown time on the Ele hammer? Or if the Warrior hammer had charges?

This is the kind of greedy comparison that tears up MMO’s: “Someone else has something I’d like and I think my class is so special that I can claim it by right!”

Ever heard of bleed and confusion builds though? They work in tPvP as a nice counter-pick. Telling me GS is the only viable spec is legitimately simple-minded.

And now that I think of it, lets say they did give Warrior 3 weapon swaps and kept the burst skills.. with the forum mentality right now they still would be UP when they wouldn’t be. Lewl.

It’s just not a good comparison. Period

Conjures use no weapon stats, including sigils. In a 2-hander, that means bye bye to 400 points in stats. This is probably the biggest reason for a higher damage coefficient.

Conjures use a util slot

Then there’s the comparison between swapping and attunement switching.

Then there’s the lower base health/toughness of the ele

It’s just not as simple as hammer vs hammer.

I feel like people aren’t understanding the point of the thread and we’re getting derailed with this or that.

So I’ll try my best to restructure my original stance:

Simply stated –
Warrior mechanics while strong in terms of raw damage, are weak in terms of overall complexity, uniqueness and use.

Many attacks in this game deal LESS damage than a Warriors, however they provide interesting mechanics to compensate for this.

An example is the Elementist Hammer. While many attacks are somewhat similar to the Warriors in both animation, and attack sequences and damage. The overall complexity is in favor of the Elementalist Hammer due to the interesting mechanics it provides.

When it comes down to it, I would gladly take a damage nerf in return for more interesting and complex weapon mechanics such as that the Elementalist Hammer provides.

This thread is not about the dynamics of an Elementalist not being able to swap attunements, or that they can only use a limited number of attacks. Please simply look at what each attack gives as an example of complexity and interesting mechanics.

In response, I’ll reconstruct the original problem with using the ele hammer as an example.
Because the ele hammer is actually a utility skill. That’s it really. Even if “it follows one of the pretty standard models”, one would expect it to be something extra because of this. You really should have just used one of the other standard models as the comparison. And thank you for clearing up that you agree that conjured weapons are crap on an ele :p
Besides, as far as utility goes
Ele hammer:blast finish, enemy fencing, aoe, blind, push, stun, leap, lightning field
War hammer: blast finish, whirl finish, aoe, weaken, cripple, push, stun, leap

As far as flexibility/multiple uses goes, lightning hammer pretty much only has the lightning field usable as a fence as an advantage over warrior hammer, while the warrier has a whirl finish and a snare (which always have multiple uses).
If you consider the entire bar, rather than just the auto attack, its actually fairly similar.
Uses besides damage
War:
skill f1- 3 other uses
skill1- 0 other uses
skill2- 1 other uses
skill3-1 other uses
skill4-2 other uses
skill5-1 other uses

Lightning Hammer:
skill1- 2 other uses
skill2- 1 other uses
skill3- 1 other uses
skill4- 0 other uses Zero practical use at all.
skill5- 3 other uses
Though warrior hammer’s auto attack lacks complexity, compared to lightning hammer the warrior hammer as a whole does not.

Ele conjured weapons also don’t scale with stats, and most Elementalists generally agree that they are useless.

Why is it that elementalist players seem incapable of basic reading comprehension…

My god.

snort, but but but ele hammer is poo and we don’t use it! snort snort

Um, that has nothing to do with a deviation from a seemingly standard model of functionality from weapon primary attacks sir

snort snort ELE’s don’t use hammer because it’s bad! snort snort

Ok, that still has nothing to do with the topic.

I’m starting to understand why some people get frustrated on the internet and just want to insult people all the time… : /

Braxxus.2904:

Why is it that elementalist players seem incapable of basic reading comprehension…

My god.

snort, but but but ele hammer is poo and we don’t use it! snort snort

Um, that has nothing to do with a deviation from a seemingly standard model of functionality from weapon primary attacks sir
snip

No, but being a utility skill does. How did you miss that in nearly half the posts?

I’m struggling with this comparison because I love how the Warrior Hammer feels. I’ve been using it for weeks, and can’t get enough. It isn’t flashy with lightning or pops or buzzes or whatever, but it thunders around. It stuns in a large AoE. It knocks people back. It snares multiple people.

I would take it over the Ele Hammer every single day of the week.

Heheh I find this thread really funny.

I am an Ele mainly, and I love my class and think it is plenty powerful. But whenever I go on the Ele forum, all people do is whine about warriors.

So, just out of curiosity, I come to the warrior forum. And what do I see? Warriors whining about Ele’s! LOLOLOL

Navzar.2938:

No, but being a utility skill does. How did you miss that in nearly half the posts?

No, it really really really doesn’t.

He could have and probably should have compared it with any other weapon: GS, Guardian hammer, thief sword, etc and the same point would have been made. Just because he chose an ele utility that makes a kitten weapon, WHICH STILL FOLLOWS THE STANDARD MODEL OF FUNCTIONALITY, does not make his point invalid. kitten /eyeroll

Cogbyrn.7283:

It isn’t flashy with lightning or pops or buzzes or whatever,

Completely irrelevant at all to the point the OP brought up…

/sigh

Creslin

And what do I see? Warriors whining about Ele’s!

Yeah, kitten happens on gaming forums, just how it is. I wonder if the OP had chosen to go with different comparisons if people would still miss the bloody point he was bringing up about the lack of an effect on the primary ability and how it deviates from standard model for weapon functionality.

Thief sword, dagger, shortbow.
Warrior sword, GS, longbow (still a chance for a kitten finisher even if you have to waste a trait on it, but that’s another issue), rifle, mace, etc
Guardian hammer, mace, etc.

Now by this same point the OP brought up a few other weapons for a few other professions could be argued to be lacking as well from the standard model of functionality, for instance:
Guardian scepter
Guardian staff
Guardian sword. Etc

Of course rather than have any actual discussion we can all just continue to whine and kitten about “your class sucks/is OP and mine needs buffs! u r bad! blaaaaaaah”. Why not, seems to be the status quo.

Braxxus.2904:

Cogbyrn.7283:

It isn’t flashy with lightning or pops or buzzes or whatever,

Completely irrelevant at all to the point the OP brought up…

/sigh

You’re right. I got lost in the ridiculousness of this thread, probably because it seems petty to begin with.

Carry on trying to convince each other, I’m going to go eat.

EDIT – Back from eating, and realized my post was probably a bit on the harsh side. However, I took another long look at the OP, didn’t care about the auto-attack differences, then was unimpressed by the Lightning Hammer’s lack of synergy (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lightning_Hammer).

So the coefficients are a bit higher. I disagree that it has more utility, and higher coefficients don’t necessarily translate to more damage output.

In short, I disagree that the Warrior Hammer is worse. Even if it was worse, why does that matter again? I can’t decide if this is a balance discussion or not.

Braxxus.2904:

Navzar.2938:

No, but being a utility skill does. How did you miss that in nearly half the posts?

No, it really really really doesn’t.

He could have and probably should have compared it with any other weapon: GS, Guardian hammer, thief sword, etc and the same point would have been made. Just because he chose an ele utility that makes a kitten weapon, WHICH STILL FOLLOWS THE STANDARD MODEL OF FUNCTIONALITY, does not make his point invalid. kitten /eyeroll

Okay, let’s pretend for a moment that being utility skill magically doesn’t matter. I already made a nice list of alternate uses besides damage that each skill has. Guess what? Lightning hammer doesn’t have more.

Now back to reality, it DOES matter. Why? Because to compare the two bars, you would have to have to compare it to the warrior hammer skills plus a utility slot. Also, what exactly are you saying deviates, the warrior hammer or the lightning hammer? The warrior hammer is only different because the 3rd hit on the auto attack has a lackluster effect. The other is a utility skill on a caster class.

Edit: And in case you don’t understand, extra effect on skill 1 is still there, it just happens to be a very weak one, not deviating. (Though it does need a better one.)

Edit: As for the lightning hammer, its not just the skill bar, but the bar along with its limitations (like limited time/uses, not counting weapon stats.) You can say just look at the skills, but unfortunately the limitations do alter the functionality of the hammer and how you’d use the skills.

Well, from pve&wvw view, the hammer’s 3rd hit already has aoe that hits behind you as its effect. I think that’s actually quite good, coupled with its f1 (i like the hammer’s the most out of all of the warrior’s melee wpns). AOE still counts as an ‘effect’ in my book.

PS. comparison was just terrible.. if the conjured hammer didn’t have any perk, why would ele conjure it? Do warriors want one of their banner replaced by one that gives no buff but looks cool to carry? It’ll be fun to just carry it around! For example, you can be a flag-carrier for your team, and free tokens for your enemy in wvw.

The big reason here is because the Elementalist hammer takes up a utility slot and has limited number of uses. The Warrior hammer is exceptional considering that it’s just a weapon and doesn’t require a utility slot to use. I agree with those other posters saying that the things being compared here are incompatible and thus the comparison is invalid.

Defektive.7283:

While I can accept the damage difference, I can’t accept the lack of a blast finisher or an ability attached to the end of the third swing. It’s inconsistent.

My god do people just not read the friggin thread?

To hell with every other part of the weapon. To hell with the “utility” bs. Could be any number of weapon examples. OP chose poorly in that regard. The conversation continued however and the quoted above is his real underlying point. Everything is irrelevant.

Also Aiyumu banners are crap so nice comparison. Yup, sure do see them banner warriors flying around the competitive scene whoopin’ booty left and right. If anything all other classes should have their utilities nerfed to be as bad as banners.

Yeah, making stupid remarks with no bearing on anything is fun! Thanks guys, I know what I’ve been missing now!

Don’t understand why people who bias towards other classes feel the need to eat paint chips and go to another class forum to kitten it all up.

What kind of effect would you expect to see? As far as I remember from my hammer days, the main thing about hammer auto 3 is the huge AoE + hits more than 3 targets. I can’t really think of any really “fitting” effect other than maybe a cripple attached to it.

I think too much utility was popped into the other skills for them to really leave anything for the hammer auto. You’ve got AoE stun (on a very short cooldown if you trait for it), AoE knockback, AoE cripple, knockdown, and high weakness uptime. If you compare guardian hammer, you get protection that combos with an aoe into retaliation, an immobilize, and a warding ring (which is actually quite balls powerful but does have a fair cast time and cooldown). Guardian hammer probably also suffers the same difficulties when it comes to landing blows, if not more, given the way auto 3 works.

Getting owned by blind spam while using hammer sucks, but it’s kind of part of the flavor.

I regularly play with Conjurer Elementalists, yet I always, always prefer my real hammer and will choose it every time over the Lightning Hammer.

When traited, it does extra damage against weakened and disabled targets, causes 5 stacks of long lasting confusion on interrupt (AoE when combined with Staggering Blow!) and the weakness, contrary to what has been mentioned earlier in this thread is NOT single target, but will hit in a generous cone in front of you.
Personally, I like the small AoE on the third auto-attack and am not really sure it needs a buff (although maybe a traited AoE range increase would be nice); I’m also not convinced that the attack speed should be increased. HOWEVER, I do think they should consider removing the roots from Hammer Shock & Staggering Blow. Being able to use those whilst moving would make it a great mobility weapon.

And while I love it, having been playing with traited Axe/Warhorn recently, even with the control of hammer, I have to reluctantly admit that Axe/Warhorn has far, far superior utility with regular conversion of conditions to boons, a permanent personal swiftness buff when combined with Signet of Rage and mobility across all 5 skills. Plus, do NOT underestimate the debuff on Call to Arms.

Braxxus.2904:

Defektive.7283:

While I can accept the damage difference, I can’t accept the lack of a blast finisher or an ability attached to the end of the third swing. It’s inconsistent.

My god do people just not read the friggin thread?

To hell with every other part of the weapon. To hell with the “utility” bs.

There is an ability on it, so its not inconsistent. The ability just sucks.

And in case you didn’t realize, it’s not just about the auto attack, but the overall utility of the war hammer skills compared to other weapons. And guess what? It’s not lacking compared to the lightning hammer, its just not as flashy. Yes, the lightning hammer autoattack has more utility than war hammer’s auto attack, but overall that’s not the case.

Keep in mind (and this rather cross references the thread about warriors being boring) that warrior abilities aren’t particularly flashy by design.

one of the reasons why warriors are balanced is precisely because our abilities do not have myriad secondary effects that can additively or multiplicatively change the outcome of our attacks and have repercussions that ripple out through the other classes.

It may seem reductive, but warriors swing weapons, inspire allies, and have the ability to single handedly change the tide of combat for the benefit of the rest of their team, that is, sacrifical gains.

Warrior weapons do not need to have a plethora of add-ons.

The warrior hammer already has AoE on its third attack. If you are in a fire field (i.e. from a warrior longbow) this already combines to add burning in that AoE blast.

Think about how your warrior is used and how a warrior is meant to be a frontline melee. React to other classes both friend and foe by offering them the power of your support or by suffering them the slings and arrows of defeat.

They just aren’t your slings and arrows.

… Unless you are using a bola and longbow.

nakoda.4213

:that is, sacrifical gains.

Ew.

Having team utility is great, it’s wonderful… when it’s not at the complete expense of your own ability. Examples are all around in the other classes: notably look at any D/D ele capable of sustained combat vs 3+ people solo AND having immense group support when rolling in a team.

Also people keep bringing up “flashy effects”. I don’t think any warrior here has mentioned, nor cares in the least about “flashy effects”. It’s about the utility and abilities themselves. We could run around with every ability animation being that of farting in the wind and as long as the actual effect of the ability mattered I wouldn’t care and I doubt most warriors would care either.

it still strikes me that the overarching drive behind the argument is a desire to be a one man wrecking crew instead of a team player when, as currently designed, warriors are balanced because they EXCEL at team synergy and no solo-oriented warfare.

perhaps “flashy” was the wrong adjective, I did nto mean to evoke the aesthetic, in fact, my post specifically articulates the non-flashiness of the abilities and how they, as they are, offer a wide range of utility without necesarily relying on secondary effects.

so from a certain perspective, warriors (commonly decried as OP by many others) are already diverse and self-reliant because they can be “OP” without needing to rely on gimicks.

i personally do not find warrior to be a boring profession because, perhaps, i never consider myself to be above the rest of the people in the “multi” portion of the MMO.

Braxxus.2904:

It’s about the utility and abilities themselves.

Is it? I thought it was “to hell with the utility”? You yelled at everyone when they brought up utility, saying it was about the auto’s finisher not having a blast effect or whatever. Now is it actually about the utility and sum of the abilities? Because I’d still take a Warrior hammer over an Ele one.

It’s really beginning to sound like people are bored and just want to argue a point for the sake of arguing it.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Babble

Sir, I would kindly ask you to spend a moment looking at the context of what was posted, to whom it was posted and what the post was pertaining to. The person I was responding went into a metaphysical discussion of the warrior “function” and style. The quoted section of the post was about the conceptual design and purpose rather than commenting on the specific subject that the thread is about. It probably should have been posted in it’s own thread, or another thread but since he posted it here I responded to it here.

Secondly, Sir, the argument you are trying to put forth has no bearing upon the context of the text you quoted from me as it was in reference to “flashy effects”. My comment immediately following should have made that clear that “flashy effects” are meaningless and could be the most basic of mundane animations possible and as long as the effect of said animation produced the desired result.

In the end your closing statement seems quite ironic:
“It’s really beginning to sound like people are bored and just want to argue a point for the sake of arguing it.”

Before I pray to all the gods in all the heavens that this thread get nuked from orbit, I’ll try one more avenue:

How should the warrior hammer be changed given the context of this thread to make it OK when compared to the elementalist hammer? Following that, does that satisfactorily change the warrior hammer enough to make it a viable option for top-tier competitive PvP given the assumption that it is not already viable because it is in need of buffs as seen when compared to the elementalist hammer (please correct me if in fact it is argued that the elementalist hammer needs nerfs)? If not, then why aren’t we having that discussion instead of this one?

I’m trying to give this thread the benefit of the doubt in that it desires some meaningful outcome, but I can’t for the life of me see what that is at the moment.

Braxxus.2904:

Navzar.2938:

Way to selectively ignore the thread.

I refer you to the answer I gave Cog. Please utilize some level of comprehension when you read before responding. The quoted text you lept on like a starving jackal was in reference to the poster I was responding to and his talk about “flashy effects”. Nothing more, nothing less.

you keep saying “flashy effects” referring to my post while telling others to “comprehend” and yet I never talked about flashy effects. I did talk about flashy abilities and seperately about secondary effects and even went so far as to amend my intention in a following post. I understand that it is easy for you to combine the two because thinking about multiple things at once is difficult, but perhaps you ought to reconsider your hostility towards people because all you are doing is beginning to represent yourself as a forum troll and not a lucid participant of debate.

I implore you to coherently respond to the simple question above: how would you fix the hammer?

nakoda.4213:

you keep saying “flashy effects” referring to my post while telling others to “comprehend” and yet I never talked about flashy effects. I did talk about flashy abilities and seperately about secondary effects and even went so far as to amend my intention in a following post. I understand that it is easy for you to combine the two because thinking about multiple things at once is difficult, but perhaps you ought to reconsider your hostility towards people because all you are doing is beginning to represent yourself as a forum troll and not a lucid participant of debate.

I implore you to coherently respond to the simple question above: how would you fix the hammer?

I saw your post and understand your meaning. My responses were regarding the chuckle heads. Also it was not only your post that I saw people referring to “flashy” in this thread, it was merely the one that I finally responded to about that specific descriptive reference so I hope you don’t take it personal.

How would I fix the hammer? TBH I wouldn’t, I would fix the class itself. HOWEVER since that’s a fairly lame answer to your question I would probably:
Add a combo finisher: blast to the 3rd hit of the primary attack chain
Remove the self-root from ability 4

Increase the hammer attack animation speed a small amount and decrease it’s damage proportionally. Basically keeping it’s DPS the same (assuming all hits connect) but shortening the week you have to wait between attacks for the hand written letter to arrive via horse courier announcing that the attack is imminent while allowing you equal time to send your hand written response to said attack before the attack actually connects.

Yes that last part is exceedingly exaggerated but I despise it the most. The only attack I have been hit by from hammer warriors consistantly EVER is the F1 special if it’s used at point blank range. Otherwise the attacks, along with the mace mainhand are so rediculously slow they seem like something out of a turn based game compared to everything other attack happening on the screen.

Gotcha. So a blast finisher at the end of 1.5 seconds and landing 3 autos on someone, and removing a self root, and we could compare the Warrior hammer with the Elementalist hammer without issue. The other bits I assume are more for balance, and do not effect the comparison (perhaps they do).

Also, Earthshaker takes the same amount of time to actually execute whether you use it at full range or point blank. At point blank, you hover for the .75 seconds, and at max range you go flying through the air. Perhaps one is more of a visual cue than the other, but it could also be that most hammer warriors are obvious and broadcast their intentions (leading off with Earthshaker once in range, using Backbreaker to try to initiate a combo, etc.).

However, this thread isn’t specifically about warrior hammer balance issues, so I’ll stop there. I just wanted to try to dig to the root of what changes needed to be made to make the concern between hammers moot from a warrior’s perspective.

Braxxus.2904:

I refer you to the answer I gave Cog. Please utilize some level of comprehension when you read before responding. The quoted text you lept on like a starving jackal was in reference to the poster I was responding to and his talk about “flashy effects”. Nothing more, nothing less.

I’m sorry, I do admit I wasn’t clear about what I was saying.
You said it was about utility right? So I listed the utilities I saw of each skill, which was the main thing this thread was started about, showing that they are both rather similar. If you see a problem with my interpretation of said skill uses, please point it out. You didn’t say much about the utility of the skills though you did say there are important. It’s not like they weren’t brought up. You failed to actually describe how the warrior’s hammer is actually lacking in overall utility. Key word is overall, of course it has less utility towards one area (ex healing), but it still has a decent variety overall.

Cogbyrn.7283:

It isn’t flashy with lightning or pops or buzzes or whatever, but it thunders around. It stuns in a large AoE. It knocks people back. It snares multiple people.

Oh look he’s said while it’s not flashy, it still has utility. And you call him out on the flashy part, and ignore the part where someone says war hammer does actually have utility.
Rather than (intentionally or not) trying to belittle others by claiming everyone is unable to understand what you’re saying or accusing me of being a “troll” in order to imply my comments as worthless and inflammatory, please use some analysis to explain why the the things others don’t matter. And that doesn’t just mean that it, but actually back it up. Of course I mean each concept as a whole of course. That “flashy” comment was only a side thought.

Navzar.2938:

I’m sorry, I do admit I wasn’t clear about what I was saying.
You said it was about utility right?

Yes and no. Perhaps this is where I am not being clear, and I’ll admit that (been a long hectic day and nerves have been fried. Booze to the rescue now so…)

What you’re looking at when I said it’s about utility is all the references to whether or not it’s “flashy”, such as what you quoted here:

Cogbyrn.7283:

It isn’t flashy with lightning or pops or buzzes or whatever, but it thunders around. It stuns in a large AoE. It knocks people back. It snares multiple people.

It’s not the only time someone brought it up in this thread (and others), so hopefully Cog doesn’t think I’m singling him out here either. My response of “it’s about utility and ability” was probably poorly worded and could have been summed up more or less by “functionality”. The only point I was trying to convey was that, imo, whether it’s “flashy” or not has no bearing whatsoever and I’m clueless as to why it’s even mentioned at all. Hence the rambling about how every animation could be farting in the wind and as long as the desired functions occured it would be fine.

It wasn’t a statement about the utility of the weapon itself but a separate gripe basically about this whole lack of “flashy”-ish-ness stuff being brought up in the first place since it has nothing to do with anything.

Navzar.2938:

You failed to actually describe how the warrior’s hammer is actually lacking in overall utility.

See above. I never said that the hammer lacks utility. Which is part of what’s been frustrating about this whole thing, rather the warrior forums lately in general which is seemingly saturated with anti-warrior protestors who don’t understand how good they have it on their respective classes ONCE THE BUGS ARE FIXED (caps aimed at the devs more than you.) The only thing I have been mentioning this entire time was about the OP’s statement about the primary attack lacking “something”. Vunerability, weakness, poison, bleeding, daze, blah blah take your pick. Most every weapon has them attached to the primary attack. That’s it. That’s the only thing in this convoluted mess I’ve been trying to comment on throughout this flood of “Warriors are OP! My class sucks! You’re all bad! BOO HISS MOO” crap that’s been going on which has nothing to do with anything. And so I will admit that my frustration with the way the thread, meant for some kind of rational discussion, freefalling into yet another burning pile of rediculousness has probably spilled into my posts recently. Apologies.

I took a look back to figure out why I mentioned flashiness, and I believe it was a slight misinterpretation of comments on the first page about Warrior abilities being less “interesting”, and lacking “complexity”. I took that more to mean that they weren’t as “cool” as some of the Lightning Hammer abilities, when in fact it seems more a microcosmic example of the class as a whole being more straight-forward in its mechanics.

My biggest hang-up is that I think the Lightning Hammer might have a cool ability (stun field), but I have a difficult time caring about a blind that isn’t even on-demand, an (apparently) lack-luster AoE, a gap closer that doesn’t even stun on only a 4 second shorter cooldown, and a banish when I’m trying to be up in their face anyway.

I also simply don’t agree with the auto-attack requiring a condition. They might have set a general precedent with the other weapons, but I remember being happy when I saw the damage coefficients didn’t take a hit because of a few stacks of some condition I didn’t care much about. If I want to apply Weakness, I’ll use Fierce Blow anyway. In my in-game situations, I’ve never once said “I wish my hammer applied a condition with its auto-attack”. But that’s just me.

As far as frustration getting in the way, it happens. These forums can be insane, and my personal therapy is to type out at least part of a response while I’m “in the moment”, realize half-way through that it’s a worthless topic and the response will go nowhere, then close the tab and move on with my day. The main reason I have kept posting on this thread in particular is because I couldn’t for the life of me figure out what the big deal was. “The elementalist hammer has a blind on its auto and the warrior hammer has nothing” is an argument that absolutely reeks of something else being the actual problem (such as class complexity as a whole being lackluster for some folks), so I had to pry.

Eh, yeah, sorry that went on for so long. As far as the auto attack is concerned, I feel like its slightly lacking, but not too badly. Hammer already has weakness, so maybe 2 or 3 stacks of vulnerability for 5 seconds?
Blast finisher? Maybe, I don’t really know how weak or strong that would end up being. I feel as if it wouldn’t be overly useful since you want finishers to be on demand, yet can be very strong since its a spammable blast. Maybe it’d earn rangers a spot for their healing spring?Not sure what else would make sense on a hammer though.

Ive got a montage video of me using the ele weapons as warrior in Wvw

Here is a link
The weapons are more efficiently
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ30SzEbxqE&feature=plcp