Seems like everyone and their mother has an opinion on what warriors ought to be toned down in. With the advent of a recent Arenanet statement saying Warrior mobility was slightly overtuned…
I think its time we have a SERIOUS talk about what to expect.
So, rather than go through a whole prologue about our state of the game, I am just going to give my predictions on what Arena-net has likely in store for us. Thus, to prevent any more ‘complete’ overhauls as some people have been suggesting.
Here’s my realistic, very likely to happen predictions:
- Greatsword 5 ‘Rush’ range brought down to either 900-1000 range, from 1200.
- Greatsword 3 ‘Whirlwind Attack’ brought down to 300 from 450 range. (Possible)
- Hammer Burst ‘Earthshaker’ range brought to 450 from 600 range (Possible)
Huge mobility nerfs, in MY humble opinion, if anything will get nerfed these three abilities are prime candidates. I placed Earthshaker as a potentially nerf for the fact that 600 range on an 240 AoE stun is not completely out of the picture, especially coupled with Mobile Strikes trait in Disclipline every warrior loves.
We are allowed to be mobile in a fight, but Warriors aren’t allowed to be able to exploit distance-covering skills to ‘get away’. In fact, I also believe Warriors should not be able to keep up with chasing down anyone, just winning the fight then and there.
To that regard…
My hopes and predictions for balancing and buffs:
- Improved hit reliability on targeted gap-closer abilities like Rush (to the point where the animation and subsequent attack will go off when the enemy is within range to hit regardless of if they are dodging or not)
- Reduced chunkiness of several mechanics, most notably banner activation time, physical skills.
- (Unlikely)Traits reworks, emphasis on defense tree for any PvP build gone.
- (Unlikely)Further weapon type viability, Rifle and Off-hand Mace used more in any environment.
Frankly, I am of the belief that Warriors are in a state of ‘artificial power’. Unlike Guardians (whom I can assume have a very clear role in any mode in this game, and have proven such from being relatively untouched), Warriors have gone through several incarnations. They are now viable, but only due to sloppily made mechanics and traits. Hard counters are not necessarily a bad thing, but only at a level where there is a huge trade-off. Any condition centric build would not criticize Warriors so much for their 8 (or more if traited lol) seconds of Berserker stance every 60 seconds if every viable build did not have defenses against practically everything in-line.
Which is why there needs to be MORE options in other lines like Strength, Arms and/or Tactics to deal with conditions. My ‘Trait Reworks’ suggestion hopes for stronger condition removal options in other trees that will balance the risk vs. reward the Warrior has needed since the Healing Signet and CI changes.
I recognize the problems that the Warrior have, and frankly, the Defense tree should only be reserved for traits that properly focus defense rather than an offense focused CI we have now. Move too swiftly, and we put Warriors in a bind against any sort of condition suppression much like Launch.
So as such, I will stop my predictions here, mainly because I cannot tell whether or not Arenanet actually does favor us more than other professions, or it is just a stigma.
What I can tell you, is that we are going to have our mobility nerfed in some regard, and without a buff many warriors will cry out a great deal. Frankly, we probably have it coming.
You are misinterpreting that statement. They said that they don’t want warriors to become more mobile. That is not the same thing as finding it ‘slightly overtuned’.
But, the flood of QQ on the forum definitely means warrior mobility will get a nerf.
- Greatsword 5 ‘Rush’ range brought down to either 900-1000 range, from 1200.
- Greatsword 3 ‘Whirlwind Attack’ brought down to 300 from 450 range. (Possible)
- Hammer Burst ‘Earthshaker’ range brought to 450 from 600 range (Possible)
I don’t see this happening though. I expect Rush to get it’s cooldown increased. Whirlwind will remain untouched or get a CD increase also. Reducing it’s range will increase it’s potency in PvE, but in PvP as well actually, because you won’t need a wall anymore. Nerfing Earthshaker range would be ridiculous, as ES is not really a mobility skill as is. The animation makes running pretty much equally fast.
No, I expect them to nerf Cleansing Ire. They won’t move it up a tier I think, but they will kill it. The amount of QQ will ensure that overnerfs will happen.
This would not be a problem if warriors had other viable ways of mitigating conditions. 8 seconds of immunity, sure, then what?
I also expect a nerf to longbow, again. While in fact it is the broken set-up of PvP in this game that’s the real problem. If the freakin points were larger and you would be able to decap just by having more people on them, warrior QQ would not be half as bad.
All this is without looking at the glaring issues that warriors suffer from.
-Worthless traits
-Unreliable ‘in combat mobility skills’, such as Rush, Bull’s Rush, Earthshaker, etc.
-We have 4 heals of which two are utterly useless (Surge and Mending), one is only usable in ZvZ and one is very good but with a very bad active. Give the active a use, up the cooldown, and warriors won’t be the regeneration bots people make them out to be anymore.
-Quite a lot of useless skills, both utility and weapon. Axe offhand, almost all physical utility skills.
Off course, warriors are in a good place right now so why improve the class, right? /endsarcasm
I could go on, but I am already luring more QQ to this topic. To be honest, as a warrior main since launch I have never felt as strong as I do now roaming with warrior. Naturally that has something to do with the state of warrior along with other reasons. But how could one justify taking away warrior mobility, which essentially kills the class’ roaming potential, when other classes are more mobile (thief) or have better escaping mechanics alltogether (thief, mesmer, engineer, elementalist)?
The thing is, I remember quite well how things were before CI and Healing Signet. Warriors were useless outside of PvE.
And I fear we are walking a thin line.
Mmm, the QQ is strong, however as I said I am more hopeful with the balance changes than to immediately suggest that we are going to get hit by the nerf truck.
Rush having an increased cool-down (from 20 seconds to something like 30, or even 40 seconds) I feel will be not solving the problem with it. A solid 1200 range dash to get away is often all you need when people have skills that rely on gap closers much smaller. We use Rush, certainly, but not as often in PvP as to say a cool-down increase of such a magnitude will directly nerf it. Instead, PvE damage will take a hit, Rush does an impressive amount of damage in the PvE zerker meta as to throw it into your rotation.
That is why I see Rush having it’s range nerfed. The range nerf is far more in line with what I believe would be the best and more likely scenario for how to impact the mobile warriors across the board. In other words, I would be surprised if its range does NOT get nerfed.
I considered the Whirlwind Attack range nerf, as you said, as a buff to warrior damage and further nerf to mobility. But, again as you said Cygnus, the problem is that buffing the damage the warrior puts out when they are already so decent will probably not happen. Hence, I tagged it as a possible change.
Earthshaker, when you leap at max range, does two things. Removes the immobilize and forces the dodge on any nearby opponent within 800 range. It is a 600 range leap stun with a 240 radius around it, it can strike FAR. …Which is why I placed it as a possibility since if there were to be any further nerfs to the already damaged Hammer, rather than damage or CC they would go for mobility.
I don’t think Arenanet is silly enough as to take back the power they gave out with concern to CI, rather my hope as I stated with trait reworks is that if they do take out power, they can allocated condi-removal in other unviable trees to expand our builds.
Expansion of builds = more weaknesses and harder to predict what each warrior will be running.
I believe you might agree that once every warrior build viable in PvP stops having the same god kitten weaknesses as each other, we will be in a better state.
Going to be hoping for the best though.
Yeah, I don’t think warrior mobility would be nerf much if at all. Most of the QQ are direct at warrior running away in roaming. That particular game mode gather the most opinion, but probably receive the least balance work. And if they do want to balance this mode, they might also look at condition bunkers + food, or even stealth which are all good things for warriors.
Also most of the complain seems to be GS. Outside of mobility, it isn’t a particularly strong weapon, as a result the complain is on warrior running away instead of being OPed. I would say the most nerf might be decrease the range of rush. Or give it the same treatment as ele. Perhaps Anet will also do a bit of rework on GS burst, which I am hoping.
Regarding CI, once again its more of an issue for LB. I don’t think Anet would change this trait, as it will affect every single warrior pvp/wvw builds, most of which are not OPed.
They might do something to Zerker stance though, decrease the duration maybe, as they mention something about not liking a immunity.
I believe you might agree that once every warrior build viable in PvP stops having the same god kitten weaknesses as each other, we will be in a better state.
Going to be hoping for the best though.
I can agree with you to some extent. Truth is, warriors are very strong in PvP. The reason for this is not the warrior, but the PvP. The points are too small, the longbow F1 is too big, w/e way you want to look at it. Fact is, Axe sword or Hammer are completely different builds, with different weaknesses, but they both wreck face. Axe sword is actually a good dueling build too.
I don’t PvP anymore, as it really bores me. It is the same thing over and over again, even the maps aren’t different enough to keep me interested. Sure, you get a decent level of play compared to most WvW fights, but in WvW you get numbers to make up for that.
And that’s the thing, in WvW, those PvP builds are either useless (Hambow) or only good for dueling (AxeBow). And trust me, there are better dueling builds on other classes (although AxeBow is pretty beast).
I am not talking ZvZ here, that part of the game is just broken beyond repair.
I do expect a cooldown nerf to GS. Just reducing the range to 1000 won’t stop any warrior that wants to get away from getting away. But, if you up the cooldown, you only have to CC that one Rush and you’re golden.
This is why Rush and RtL should not be treated the same way. RtL is just a much better skill (can’t be CC’d, does insta-AoE damage, I don’t think I ever missed it when it mattered on my ele and I suck).
Anyways, I’m not hoping for anything really. I just read something in a topic about Eviscerate. There was a person stating that a zerk warrior had more armor then a dire engineer.
The balance forum is getting rekt, and so is warrior.
But hey, it can’t possibly get worse then the first year of GW2, right? Right???
well josh did say “We don’t think warrior should have more mobility.” so i think they will leave it as it is.
no nerfs.
no buffs to mobility.
because it is fine and working as intended.
A nerf on Warrior mobility will never happen and it should never happen because of the following reasons:
Conclusion:
Every class has its own build to escape or prolong a chase. A rebuild on warrior speed MUST bring a rebuild on every other class agility/speed builds.
actually Warrior needs mobility buffs, i mean to be able to be very mobile you need GS/Sw set, other from that warrior is not that mobile.
when it comes to roaming in WvW, where mobility really matters, Warriors are forced to take GS, in PvP you don’t need mobility at least for the hambow, on the other hand our ranged weapons sucks, Rifle is just a no go and LB is suited for points fights.
we are a melee class with the most obvious moves ever , we need mobility to deliver these hits.
(edited by Juba.8406)
Here’s my realistic, very likely to happen predictions:
- Greatsword 5 ‘Rush’ range brought down to either 900-1000 range, from 1200.
- Greatsword 3 ‘Whirlwind Attack’ brought down to 300 from 450 range. (Possible)
- Hammer Burst ‘Earthshaker’ range brought to 450 from 600 range (Possible)
Also forgetting Sword 2 Leap and Bull’s Rush…
One of two things will happen:
1. Sword Leap 2 and GS Rush 5 will have 2x cooldown when they do not strike a target
2. The activation/cast timing will be increased by 1/4 s – 1/2s on probably on all of these abilities (not Bull’s rush)
My wager is #2 based on the ANet trending of “balance” for Warrior has been slowing down everything so Warrior’s can be more easily interrupted and does less and less damage over time/slower burst. However, #1 is likely for Rush on GS since everyone ANet devs clearly like that balance used for Elementalist Ride the Lightning.
Giving rush the exact same treatment as rtl would be mindbogglingly stupid.
giving both skills higher casttime would destroy their gap closing capability.
So I don’t think so.
Adren works pretty close to how it works irl. Yes i know this isnt real life. Im going to say you must never have had an adrenaline rush before because you would know that your body responds differently while under the effects of adrenaline.
While not the most reliable/scientific source of info, this will get the point across.
From: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response
The reaction begins in the amygdala, which triggers a neural response in the hypothalamus. The initial reaction is followed by activation of the pituitary gland and secretion of the hormone ACTH.8 The adrenal gland is activated almost simultaneously and releases the neurotransmitter epinephrine. The release of chemical messengers results in the production of the hormone cortisol, which increases blood pressure, blood sugar, and suppresses the immune system.9 The initial response and subsequent reactions are triggered in an effort to create a boost of energy. This boost of energy is activated by epinephrine binding to liver cells and the subsequent production of glucose.10 Additionally, the circulation of cortisol functions to turn fatty acids into available energy, which prepares muscles throughout the body for response.11 Catecholamine hormones, such as adrenaline (epinephrine) or noradrenaline (norepinephrine), facilitate immediate physical reactions associated with a preparation for violent muscular action. These include the following:12
Acceleration of heart and lung action
Paling or flushing, or alternating between both
Inhibition of stomach and upper-intestinal action to the point where digestion slows down or stops
General effect on the sphincters of the body
Constriction of blood vessels in many parts of the body
Liberation of metabolic energy sources (particularly fat and glycogen) for muscular action
Dilation of blood vessels for muscles
Inhibition of the lacrimal gland (responsible for tear production) and salivation
Dilation of pupil (mydriasis)
Relaxation of bladder
Inhibition of erection
Auditory exclusion (loss of hearing)
Tunnel vision (loss of peripheral vision)
Disinhibition of spinal reflexes
Shaking
Function of physiological changes
The physiological changes that occur during the fight or flight response are activated in order to give the body increased strength and speed in anticipation of fighting or running. Some of the specific physiological changes and their functions include:1314
Increased blood flow to the muscles activated by diverting blood flow from other parts of the body.
Increased blood pressure, heart rate, blood sugars, and fats in order to supply the body with extra energy.
The blood clotting function of the body speeds up in order to prevent excessive blood loss in the event of an injury sustained during the response.
Increased muscle tension in order to provide the body with extra speed and strength.The reaction begins in the amygdala, which triggers a neural response in the hypothalamus. The initial reaction is followed by activation of the pituitary gland and secretion of the hormone ACTH.8 The adrenal gland is activated almost simultaneously and releases the neurotransmitter epinephrine. The release of chemical messengers results in the production of the hormone cortisol, which increases blood pressure, blood sugar, and suppresses the immune system.9 The initial response and subsequent reactions are triggered in an effort to create a boost of energy. This boost of energy is activated by epinephrine binding to liver cells and the subsequent production of glucose.10 Additionally, the circulation of cortisol functions to turn fatty acids into available energy, which prepares muscles throughout the body for response.11 Catecholamine hormones, such as adrenaline (epinephrine) or noradrenaline (norepinephrine), facilitate immediate physical reactions associated with a preparation for violent muscular action. These include the following:12
Acceleration of heart and lung action
Paling or flushing, or alternating between both
Inhibition of stomach and upper-intestinal action to the point where digestion slows down or stops
General effect on the sphincters of the body
Constriction of blood vessels in many parts of the body
Liberation of metabolic energy sources (particularly fat and glycogen) for muscular action
Dilation of blood vessels for muscles
Inhibition of the lacrimal gland (responsible for tear production) and salivation
Dilation of pupil (mydriasis)
Relaxation of bladder
Inhibition of erection
Auditory exclusion (loss of hearing)
Tunnel vision (loss of peripheral vision)
Disinhibition of spinal reflexes
Shaking
Function of physiological changes
The physiological changes that occur during the fight or flight response are activated in order to give the body increased strength and speed in anticipation of fighting or running. Some of the specific physiological changes and their functions include:1314
Increased blood flow to the muscles activated by diverting blood flow from other parts of the body.
Increased blood pressure, heart rate, blood sugars, and fats in order to supply the body with extra energy.
The blood clotting function of the body speeds up in order to prevent excessive blood loss in the event of an injury sustained during the response.
Increased muscle tension in order to provide the body with extra speed and strength.The reaction begins in the amygdala, which triggers a neural response in the hypothalamus. The initial reaction is followed by activation of the pituitary gland and secretion of the hormone ACTH.8 The adrenal gland is activated almost simultaneously and releases the neurotransmitter epinephrine. The release of chemical messengers results in the production of the hormone cortisol, which increases blood pressure, blood sugar, and suppresses the immune system.9 The initial response and subsequent reactions are triggered in an effort to create a boost of energy. This boost of energy is activated by epinephrine binding to liver cells and the subsequent production of glucose.10 Additionally, the circulation of cortisol functions to turn fatty acids into available energy, which prepares muscles throughout the body for response.11 Catecholamine hormones, such as adrenaline (epinephrine) or noradrenaline (norepinephrine), facilitate immediate physical reactions associated with a preparation for violent muscular action. These include the following:12
Acceleration of heart and lung action
Paling or flushing, or alternating between both
Inhibition of stomach and upper-intestinal action to the point where digestion slows down or stops
General effect on the sphincters of the body
Constriction of blood vessels in many parts of the body
Liberation of metabolic energy sources (particularly fat and glycogen) for muscular action
Dilation of blood vessels for muscles
Inhibition of the lacrimal gland (responsible for tear production) and salivation
Dilation of pupil (mydriasis)
Relaxation of bladder
Inhibition of erection
Auditory exclusion (loss of hearing)
Tunnel vision (loss of peripheral vision)
Disinhibition of spinal reflexes
Shaking
Function of physiological changes
The physiological changes that occur during the fight or flight response are activated in order to give the body increased strength and speed in anticipation of fighting or running. Some of the specific physiological changes and their functions include:1314
Increased blood flow to the muscles activated by diverting blood flow from other parts of the body.
Increased blood pressure, heart rate, blood sugars, and fats in order to supply the body with extra energy.
The blood clotting function of the body speeds up in order to prevent excessive blood loss in the event of an injury sustained during the response.
Increased muscle tension in order to provide the body with extra speed and strength.
If you are ‘rushing’ into or away from battle, you are going to experience some or all of these effects of adrenaline.
For all intensive purposes i think that adrenaline is working as intended.
My opninion, some kind of cooldown on adrenaline generation after using a burst. Not just having burst cooldown. A cooldown on the generating of adrenaline itself after expending your adrenaline. Because there is often a crash in ability after using up one’s ‘adrenaline rush’ irl.
Another one of those that try to explain an in-game mechanism using some sort of real-life parity.
Wait…. how exactly do you explain the following
Thief turning invisible right in front of your eyes? Elementalist shooting fire, ice, electricity, and stone? Necro summoning dead creatures? Engineer having infinite grenades + turrets? Guardian teleports? Mesmer generating illusion of itself?
Let look at warrior:
Wait I hit you with a huge sword and you don’t die? Make all weapon hit 1 or 2 shot kills
What do you mean my Rifle only has max 1500 range…… I should be able to hit you across the map, with 1 shot kills.
If you want base everything in reality warrior needs a huge buff, and everything else should be deleted.
Greatsword 5 could probably use a nerf in mobility. Maybe ride the lightning style, though not as severe (I still feel they over nerfed it a bit), or just reduce the distance.
The other one I’d change is Sword 2. Increase the cooldown of Savage Leap from 8 sec to 10 seconds, but then buff the Blade Master trait so that it reduces sword cool downs by 20% (on top of its current effect). This way, you have to invest in order to get the most mobility out of it. (some other sword cooldowns might need adjustments as well if this happened though).
I can understand nerfing warriors so that they cannot run away. (I have seen some completely outrun people who had access to swiftness & chill/immobilize/cripple)
That being said I do think they should be able to chase some specs down without too much trouble.
So I would be alright with a few of the weapon movement skills getting a slight nerf in range but I hope they don’t touch swiftness uptime & the ability to cripple/immobilize at a range.
Another one of those that try to explain an in-game mechanism using some sort of real-life parity.
Wait…. how exactly do you explain the following
Thief turning invisible right in front of your eyes? Elementalist shooting fire, ice, electricity, and stone? Necro summoning dead creatures? Engineer having infinite grenades + turrets? Guardian teleports? Mesmer generating illusion of itself?
Let look at warrior:
Wait I hit you with a huge sword and you don’t die? Make all weapon hit 1 or 2 shot kills
What do you mean my Rifle only has max 1500 range…… I should be able to hit you across the map, with 1 shot kills.
If you want base everything in reality warrior needs a huge buff, and everything else should be deleted.
Thief and invisibility:
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=duke+university+invisibility+cloak+video&safe=off
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs7u5TqXIQ4
Necromancers and minions
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=scientists%20bring%20dog%20back%20to%20life&safe=off
Elementalists:
Fire
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=home%20made%20flame%20thrower&safe=off
Water
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxvnL-eEhs8
Air
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfKWVrXKbn0
Earth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5GmCgDhqCw
Mesmers:
go watch a magic show and look for the smoke and mirrors
i cant explain the engineer one easily, they must be gambit from x-men.
and the guardian one is hard to explains as well.
I can understand nerfing warriors so that they cannot run away. (I have seen some completely outrun people who had access to swiftness & chill/immobilize/cripple)
That being said I do think they should be able to chase some specs down without too much trouble.
So I would be alright with a few of the weapon movement skills getting a slight nerf in range but I hope they don’t touch swiftness uptime & the ability to cripple/immobilize at a range.
Um, this isn’t correct. Cripple/chill/immobilize (and Quickness on the warrior) greatly reduces the distance traveled when using any of of the GS abilities. If the opponents are routinely using them on a Warrior, Warriors are not running away from combat (unless you are talking Warriors builds with both mobility and severe movement condition removal, so that’s TWO investments into the Warrior build).
And the key here that everyone in WvW dislikes is the run away component. If a Warrior loses mobility to engage closely to target that would be a huge problem with the melee portion of Warrior. They don’t teleport to target (like Thief and Guardian do) after all.
Honestly though, if Rush doesn’t get a ‘connect to target’ fix/smart run around small debris fix along with a longer cooldown change, Rush will become pretty worthless.
Longer activation/longer animation time will likely be the Anet fix though. That’s just how they think.
Here’s my realistic, very likely to happen predictions:
- Greatsword 5 ‘Rush’ range brought down to either 900-1000 range, from 1200.
- Greatsword 3 ‘Whirlwind Attack’ brought down to 300 from 450 range. (Possible)
- Hammer Burst ‘Earthshaker’ range brought to 450 from 600 range (Possible)
I’d love these changes, with the exception of Earthsaker. I think Rush needs to be brought down in range, but it also needs to be fixed. I’d also like to see this skill become AoE, similar to Ranger GS 3, except bring it’s damage down.
WWA range reduction would be fantastic, especially if they maintain the damage and hits. It allows the attack to be much more reliable for Damage output. It’s rare that you actually get the final hit off unless you’re against a wall, so this would be nice.
My gripe with the Earthshaker change is that 600 range isn’t really THAT far and the time it takes to close the gap means you should be able to dodge it and I rarely see anyone use it as an escape anyway. I think instead Savage Leap needs a nerf of about 150 – 200 units.
Do all this and I think Warrior mobility will be in a better place.
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