Guild Wars 2

400 per sec means 12 k per 30 sec, which is slightly more than healing surge (10k ). But if you fight against bursty enemy without being super tanky, the fight will very likely not last 30 sec so u will not get much out of healing signet. More over, healing signet is susceptible to poison in its entire duration (which healing surge can avoid by waiting for it to cool off ). With those disadvantages, I don’t see how healing signet being OP unless u want to claim healing surge is equally OP as well. So logically, healing signet is far from OP, anyone who claim that are just unreasonably looking for a cheap way to beat warrior.

Dragonax.6487:

400 per sec means 12 k per 30 sec, which is slightly more than healing surge (10k ). But if you fight against bursty enemy without being super tanky, the fight will very likely not last 30 sec so u will not get much out of healing signet. More over, healing signet is susceptible to poison in its entire duration (which healing surge can avoid by waiting for it to cool off ). With those disadvantages, I don’t see how healing signet being OP unless u want to claim healing surge is equally OP as well. So logically, healing signet is far from OP, anyone who claim that are just unreasonably looking for a cheap way to beat warrior.

1. Healing Surge only heals for 10k if you have 3 bars of adrenaline, which isn’t always/can’t always be the case.

2. If you wait for poison the cool off, then you’re spending more time in between heals. As a result, that 10k figure you mentioned earlier would not in fact be the case. You’re also still healing for ~270 (very rough estimate I just did in my head) HPS with HealSig. Furthermore, you fail to take into consideration the cast time for Healing Surge (during which you can be poisoned), as well as the fact that only very few classes have any half decent access to poison (namely, thief and necro, and, in part, ranger).

3. The poison argument doesn’t take into consideration either the rate of application for poison or condi clear, two variables which easily could change the effectiveness of “waiting out” on using Healing Surge.

That should be enough, I think, although I can always provide more mathematical evidence later.

The value of not having to heal greatly outweighs any slight numerical advantage surge might have against a “bursty” opponent. Plus warrior has tons of ways to drag out a fight, and surge works pretty poorly with the meta hammer f1 spam.

Honestly the amount healed isn’t even remotely the problem with Healing Signet. It’s a slight increase in healing over time compared with a Warrior’s over heals with the caveat that it’s weakness is fighting conditions that don’t allow the “over time” aspect to matter much.

Where the problem lies is the play-style it engenders. There is basically no thought given to it because if you are actually thinking about pushing that button you’re better off disengaging anyway.

My solution would be this …
Healing Signet moves to utilities
- Healing reduced to the same level as a Ranger’s Signet of the Wild.
- Active becomes “Cure all conditions”. 45 Second CD

Signet of Stamina moves to the heal slot
- Active becomes to heal a similar amount as Mending currently does.
- Passive remains the same

My idea is probably flawed in some sense, but the way signets themselves work having the passive and active on one signet do basically the same thing at a different rate makes little sense in itself.

Edit Fixed a typo.

TL,DR: Healing Signet is anti-attrition only, other heals are anti-burst+utility. Any good player knows which is going to be most effective for their own builds and why.
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Anyone who uses “HPS” as justification for why Healing Signet is overpowered lacks gameplay understanding, simple as that.

There’s a reason why burst, both in damage and healing, is so effective in PvP situations.

As an example, in a 15 second fight, Healing Surge provides ~660 “HPS”, while Signet still provides ~400.

In addition, Healing Surge has the utility of potentially filling your adrenaline bar, in exchange for slightly lower healing, if you need it.

Is Healing Signet boring and passive? Yes. In fact, it’s a weak skill even from a signet standpoint, because its “active” is so astoundingly bad. (Functionally, it’s the equivalent of activating Signet of Might to gain 5 stacks of might for 5 seconds – hopefully you can see why that would be stupid/poor design.) Also, as others have pointed out, poison is much more effective against Healing Signet than other heals, due to how condition cleansing works.

So, is it overpowered? No. The only situation where it becomes powerful is against a character with little burst and only mediocre dps, or on a character built specifically for sustain and toughness, because of the synergy it has there (this type of healing has an exponential benefit as toughness goes up). Healing signet augments a characters durability, and that’s it. There is no strategy involved.

All you guys talking about “healing-per-second” and how overpowered this ability is need to get yourselves some truth. (And probably learn how to play the game a bit better.)

(P.S. Honestly, you should be a lot more worried about Defiant Stance, in the hands of a skilled player…)

Dimswitch.6381:

As an example, in a 15 second fight, Healing Surge provides ~660 “HPS”, while Signet still provides ~400.

Pls, show us your calculation of this.

Black Teagan.9215:

Dimswitch.6381:

As an example, in a 15 second fight, Healing Surge provides ~660 “HPS”, while Signet still provides ~400.

Pls, show us your calculation of this.

It’s basic math. Healing Signet heals for 392HPS whether you have a 10seconds fight or a five minute fight. On the other hand, healing surge is a base heal that heals for 10,000 at any moment you activate it. 660(HPS)x15(seconds)=9,900. Close enough. It’s actually slightly more than 660HPS in a 15 second fight.

Black Teagan.9215:

Dimswitch.6381:

As an example, in a 15 second fight, Healing Surge provides ~660 “HPS”, while Signet still provides ~400.

Pls, show us your calculation of this.

Ok, didn’t realize such a simple calculation need elaboration, but I’ll oblige…

Total healing amount divided by fight time equals “healing-per-second”.

Healing Signet provides 400hps at 157 healing power. This is true whether the fight lasts 15 seconds or 15 hours; it’s constant.

Healing Surge provides a heal of 10,056 at this same level of healing power (my original estimate of 9900 was conservative) yielding, over the course of a 15-second fight, 670.4hps. [To be perfectly clear: 10,056/15=670.4]

Looking at a skill’s “HPS” in terms of healing amount divided by cooldown is irrelevant in real combat, except in cases of very, very long fights. (In fact, with maximum use of Healing Surge, “HPS” doesn’t drop below 400 unless fight time is over 2.5 minutes!)

Edit:

It’s basic math. Healing Signet heals for 392HPS whether you have a 10seconds fight or a five minute fight. On the other hand, healing surge is a base heal that heals for 10,000 at any moment you activate it. 660(HPS)x15(seconds)=9,900. Close enough. It’s actually slightly more than 660HPS in a 15 second fight.

Beat me to it!

And where is the rest?

• Your calculations of longer fights. 15 sec fight are very rare and not significant.
• Incoming dmg per sec.
• The manner of use and the advantages of heals over time skill.
• The fact that the signet has the double healpower of all other healskills in this game?

Black Teagan.9215:

And where is the rest?

• Your calculations of longer fights. 15 sec fight are very rare and not significant.
• Incoming dmg per sec.
• The manner of use and the advantages of heals over time skill.
• The fact that the signet has the double healpower of all other healskills in this game?

Sigh… I’d think it would be clear that I’m not just pulling numbers out of a hat by now. You can fire off healing surge 6 times over 151 seconds (or 2 minutes, 31 seconds), resulting in “HPS” of 399.58 [6*10056=60336/151=399.58]. 15 seconds is actually a lot longer in combat that you probably think, but regardless…

Incoming damage per second? I offered no calculation there, but if you aren’t capable of exceeding 400 damage per second in this game (and by a significant margin), then you’re doing something wrong.

I’m not really sure what you’re trying to say/ask with your third point. Are you referring to my statement that burst, in regards to both healing and damage, is useful in PvP? If you don’t understand that then there’s not much I can do to help you, but I will say this: surprise has a major impact on combat. Burst means your enemy has less time to prepare for and react to your actions. It’s a tactical advantage.

Not sure where you’re getting your data for your fourth point, but there’s a healing power coefficient of 0.05(per second) on Healing Signet passive and 0.5 on the active, significantly less than other healing skills…

Not going to take a side here, but on the third point the guy is talking about how a heal that has no cast time, and cannot overheal, has advantages over a heal that both takes time to cast and with a bad prediction will waste part of it because you can heal for more health than you have lost.
Whether this makes up for the lesser heal in a shorter fight is up for discussion.

Burst is irrelevant to this point, unless someone is bursting you down fast enough that you are forced to dodge instead of heal, or are losing enough health/have bad enough timing that the one second cast time is too long and you get downed, while the passive heal would at least provide some healing and potentially save you.

Well, in group play focusing one guy is usual, though.

You might end up using a full Healing Surge heal pretty fast.

But it depends on the build: hammer warriors are not a desirable target because of stances.

If a warrior doesn’t use endure pain, he might go down pretty fast, as all builds that are not bunkers.

I think everyone has their burst damage argument a bit backwards.

You don’t technically HPS with healing surge btw it’s just not how it works in the actual game im sorry. You’re trying to discuss flat numbers in some imaginary perfectly calculated situation. You’re not even taking into account warriors other utilities and real play which means you’re not defending the concept of balance at all.

Simply put, most of you with your “calculations” are trying to use these baseline figures to prove in-game balance which in the end makes it all bs lol.

You cant use healing surge while blocking. Which is pretty important. Using healing surge also means less dps, means you’re susceptible to interrupt, means you are actually in more danger vs burst than real HPS. You’r trying to bring this “balance” discussion to a level that of course you’re going to justify it because you’re not taking into account 90% of the game.

Its already been mentioned. The solution to Healing Signet is poison.

Poison is readily accessible to all classes on Sigil of Doom (2 silver on the TP)

I use Sigil of Doom on my warrior just to make Guardian, Necro, and Elementalist fights not take 10 minutes.

I just think mending needs to be buffed. Is there anyone who actually uses it over healing surge or healing signet?

Dimswitch.6381:

You can fire off healing surge 6 times over 151 seconds (or 2 minutes, 31 seconds), resulting in “HPS” of 399.58 [6*10056=60336/151=399.58]. 15 seconds is actually a lot longer in combat that you probably think, but regardless…

That’s not really the right way to think of it either. Yes the insta-heals are front-loaded (heal first, pay the time penalty after) compared to the regenerative heals. But it’s exceedingly rare to instantaneously take 11k of damage at the very start of a fight, use the insta-heal immediately, then continue using it the moment it comes off cooldown. You’ve gone from one extreme (wait the full cooldown before using the heal) to the other extreme (use the heal immediately, then wait the cooldown).

In a more realistic scenario, you’ll take damage in small chunks, and when it exceeds a certain threshold you’ll use the insta-heal. The time until you reach that threshold is time that Healing Signet is constantly healing, but on the insta-heal it’s wasted time. A lot of times you won’t use the insta-heal even though it’s off cooldown because you haven’t taken enough damage — you’d be a wasting part of the heal so you want to save it in case you really need it shortly after. The burst-heal advantage of insta-heals is also their drawback. You can heal a big chunk of hp at once, but it also creates situations where you will decide not to heal a smaller chunk of hp at once, even though you could.

Only when the amount of damage you’ve taken exceeds the amount of the heal does this uncertainty collapse and you are always better off firing the heal. So the HPS you’ve calculated for Healing Surge represents a best cast scenario - one where you immediately take 10k+ damage at the very start of the fight, and continue taking sufficient damage to warrant spamming the heal. (It’s actually a bit lower than you’ve calculated since the skill takes 1 sec to channel and the 30 sec cooldown doesn’t start until after it activates. Meaning it’s 31 sec per heal, and 156 sec to use it 6 times.)

So realistically, it’ll be 5-15 sec before you first use the heal, and it’ll be 36-46 sec between heals. Going with the lower range (since you’ll doubtless argue if I go with the higher range), that’s 5 + 5 * 36 = 185 sec for 6 heals, for 60336 / 185 = 326 HPS. How about that?

If you run the HPS calcs this way (assuming first heal 5 sec into fight, 36 sec between heals), you get:

1 heal = 5 sec = 2011 HPS
2 heals = 41 sec = 491 HPS
3 heals = 77 sec = 392 HPS

Quite a bit shorter than the 3 min you’ve calculated before Healing Signet becomes more effective. In fact if we split the difference between the two extremes and the initial Healing Surge isn’t needed until 15 sec into the fight (half the cooldown), by the second heal you’re only at 394 HPS and you would’ve been better off with Healing Signet loaded.

Getting back on topic, a lot of the criticism of Healing Signet could be mitigated simply by reducing its passive heal and increasing its active heal. That would redefine it as a weaker active heal than Healing Surge, which has the side-benefit of a passive heal. Right now it’s the other way around – the passive heal on it is so strong practically nobody uses the active.

complain…complain…complain….nerf…nerf…nerf….zzzz….zzzzz…….zzzzzzzzzz

Solandri.9640:

Dimswitch.6381:

You can fire off healing surge 6 times over 151 seconds (or 2 minutes, 31 seconds), resulting in “HPS” of 399.58 [6*10056=60336/151=399.58]. 15 seconds is actually a lot longer in combat that you probably think, but regardless…

That’s not really the right way to think of it either…

Well of course that’s not the right way to look at it – that was the whole point of my original post.

Dimswitch.6381:

Anyone who uses “HPS” as justification for why Healing Signet is overpowered lacks gameplay understanding, simple as that.

Focusing purely on “HPS” in some sort of perfect-scenario vacuum is pointless.

The only reason I put those “calculations” up was to in response to a poster’s request.

TheDevice.2751:

lul I play warrior as a secondary class. Healing signet is OP by just looking at regeneration lol. The scaling im sure is in favor of regen but what does that matter when, w/o any kind of healing power, you’re gaining 400ish/s. Lawl. I mean really?

Another thing is how silly it seems to me when people defend such things so deeply to even compare it to their other skills. But.. y u no use them then? Nearly every single warrior in spvp uses healing signet. Why? Well obviously because its worse than healing surge LOL. Just boggles the mind XD No.

I main a necro and even when the dhummfire patch hit there was post after post by necros admitting the change caused terror builds to be OP. We admitted it lol. It was obvious. Funny thing was necro never asked for a condition damage spike lol. go figure.

Anyways. If you all want to defend it, it’s your prerogative. Poisons can be cleansed btw I do it all the time XD.

“We admitted it lol.” Funny, I remember saying it was OP when it was released and majority of the necros said something along the lines of “Now necro is balanced!” and “**** you *, it’s not ******* op!”

But other than that, warriors = masterrace and OP. Everyone should know that.