Guild Wars 2

I’ll admit, when I first read the changes on dulfy I thought it was going to break my warrior, but after playing a lot of games I found something strange, my “nerfed” warrior played just fine.

He was still building adrenaline just as fast, hits just as hard, could still kill most threats just like before, in fact, endure pain had another second added to it so he has another second of invulnerability. I barely noticed the “adrenaline loss” because I was already used to it draining after combat, and when I do 1v1s I never enter a fight with full adrenaline.

The changes sounded way more extreme in text rather than in game, I thought I was going to be having a difficult time building adrenaline but so far it hasn’t been much different.Maybe I’m missing something here idk

DrDivine.5378:

I’ll admit, when I first read the changes on dulfy I thought it was going to break my warrior, but after playing a lot of games I found something strange, my “nerfed” warrior played just fine.

He was still building adrenaline just as fast, hits just as hard, could still kill most threats just like before, in fact, endure pain had another second added to it so he has another second of invulnerability. I barely noticed the “adrenaline loss” because I was already used to it draining after combat, and when I do 1v1s I never enter a fight with full adrenaline.

The changes sounded way more extreme in text rather than in game, I thought I was going to be having a difficult time building adrenaline but so far it hasn’t been much different.Maybe I’m missing something here idk

for the people that like to enter combat with a burst skill, the nerf turns their strategy on its head.

Berserker’s power is now affected on burst whiff.

Adrenal health is now affected on burst whiff.

Cleansing Ire is now affected on burst whiff

Greatsword has had majorly nerfs and cleave added to the old arcing slice.

In combat, using a burst sacrifices both zerker power and adrenal health immediately, whether you hit or not. for builds centered around those traits or that rely heavily upon those traits, Warriors are forced to give up spike damage and cleaning ire to maintain adrenal and zerkpwr, because whiffs will kitten all four of those burst aspects.

at the same time. (Referring to: spike damage, cleaning ire, zerker power, adrenal health)

You may not be using a build that focuses on any of those traits for sustain (which is hard to believe), but there are lots of warriors that expect the spike damage to put pressure on their opponents, and suddenly losing it renders them a sitting duck, whereas refusing to use it would cause a loss as well.

but hey. In the name of balance, let’s sandbag warriors. My playstyle hasn’t been affected, and I now get perma fury on top of it, so this was an overall buff for me (notwithstanding the fact that I cant enter a fight with a fire field). I understand why the moaning is happening though; not everyone plays like me.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

DrDivine.5378:

I’ll admit, when I first read the changes on dulfy I thought it was going to break my warrior, but after playing a lot of games I found something strange, my “nerfed” warrior played just fine.

He was still building adrenaline just as fast, hits just as hard, could still kill most threats just like before, in fact, endure pain had another second added to it so he has another second of invulnerability. I barely noticed the “adrenaline loss” because I was already used to it draining after combat, and when I do 1v1s I never enter a fight with full adrenaline.

The changes sounded way more extreme in text rather than in game, I thought I was going to be having a difficult time building adrenaline but so far it hasn’t been much different.Maybe I’m missing something here idk

for the people that like to enter combat with a burst skill, the nerf turns their strategy on its head.

Berserker’s power is now affected on burst whiff.

Adrenal health is now affected on burst whiff.

Cleansing Ire is now affected on burst whiff

Greatsword has had majorly nerfs and cleave added to the old arcing slice.

In combat, using a burst sacrifices both zerker power and adrenal health immediately, whether you hit or not. for builds centered around those traits or that rely heavily upon those traits, Warriors are forced to give up spike damage and cleaning ire to maintain adrenal and zerkpwr, because whiffs will kitten all four of those burst aspects.

at the same time. (Referring to: spike damage, cleaning ire, zerker power, adrenal health)

You may not be using a build that focuses on any of those traits for sustain (which is hard to believe), but there are lots of warriors that expect the spike damage to put pressure on their opponents, and suddenly losing it renders them a sitting duck, whereas refusing to use it would cause a loss as well.

but hey. In the name of balance, let’s sandbag warriors. My playstyle hasn’t been affected, and I now get perma fury on top of it, so this was an overall buff for me (notwithstanding the fact that I cant enter a fight with a fire field). I understand why the moaning is happening though; not everyone plays like me.

I suppose it hit particular builds pretty hard, can you name one or two builds in particular this hits really kitten? I kinda wanna check it out now so I have a better understanding.

The 100b nerf is over-exaggerated.

The adrenaline changes combined with surprisingly underwhelming Arcing Slice change are not being over-exaggerated.

Blacksarevok.8104:

The 100b nerf is over-exaggerated.

The adrenaline changes combined with surprisingly underwhelming Arcing Slice change are not being over-exaggerated.

^

The matter is not HB, but the fact that Adrenal builds (a lot of builds) ALL became UNPLAYABLE.
I can not understand why ANey killed the Adrenaline system.
Let’s reduce by 80% thieves’ stealth or remove completely an Attunement from Eles. Same thing.

Personally I find that the nerf was not a big deal. However I do think Ranger’s Rapid fire was over buffed. If you find that you are somehow dying more than usual in pvp games, this is probably the reason. After all at least half of the player are rangers now.

AS is a bit weak on damage, somewhat of a disappointment, but it is easy to connect, and very useful. Brawler’s Recovery is very nice, basically warrior are very good a dealing with conditions, cripped, immob, or fear? no problem just switch weapon.

Murashin.8295:

The matter is not HB, but the fact that Adrenal builds (a lot of builds) ALL became UNPLAYABLE.
I can not understand why ANey killed the Adrenaline system.
Let’s reduce by 80% thieves’ stealth or remove completely an Attunement from Eles. Same thing.

This is similar to not letting thieves use stealth out of combat, or start a combat with no initiative. I mean, it’s a game breaking change, to the point of abandoning the class. I don’t care about the percentage reduction of damage, if they want to reduce all damage to half, I will still play, but let me use my adrenaline.

People stating that “it’s game breaking to lose adrenaline outside of combat” …

What do you think Mesmers have been doing with their Illusions and Shatters since even beta?
(1) Our target dies
(2) Our illusions all die because our target died
(3) We have nothing to shatter with and 2/5 of our weapon skills just auto-killed themselves because our target died.

Not to mention that illusions can be killed by a stiff breeze in most Mesmer builds. Can your adrenaline disappear due to a stray AOE or bouncing attacks? No?

Now let’s talking about losing adrenaline when your burst skill misses.

A Mesmer shatters. If they miss, their Illusions are still gone and they need to replenish them. However, on top of this, those illusions can be killed before they shatter … I can have 3 illusions out, tell them to shatter my target, and then a stray AOE kills them.

But, sure, it’s game breaking that you lose adrenaline when you miss a burst skill. You just hit with whatever abilities you wanted and/or got hit when Cleansing Ire to gain adrenaline to use your ability. Mesmers used 2/5ths of their weapon skills, any number of utilities, and/or dodge rolls to generate illusions for their shatters.

What’s that you say? Our Illusions do damage before we shatter them? Yes, that is true, but your adrenaline regenerates your health, increases your damage, and/or increases your crit chance depending on your build as well.

I hope this highlights how ridiculous it is to complain about losing adrenaline out of combat.

It is far from game-breaking … Mesmers have been dealing with mechanics that are “worse” since the beginning of Guild Wars 2.

You have a great attitude there. And a great sense of balance too.

Murashin.8295:

The matter is not HB, but the fact that Adrenal builds (a lot of builds) ALL became UNPLAYABLE.
I can not understand why ANey killed the Adrenaline system.
Let’s reduce by 80% thieves’ stealth or remove completely an Attunement from Eles. Same thing.

Earth is now OP, let’s remove it and slightly decrease the damage eles take while attuned to Earth.

Not every build became unplayable, but it is true that lots of the ones built on certain traits and skills, like zerker stance /power / ire/ I’vesaidallthisbefore are all hampered significantly.

Yeah, and while we’re at it, we could throw around meaningless snark and make inaccurate comparisons. That’ll get something done :-)

Sebrent.3625:

Yeah, and while we’re at it, we could throw around meaningless snark and make inaccurate comparisons. That’ll get something done :-)

That’s the spirit!

Press F to entertain that cow!

Meh, I’ll pass and do something constructive … like talk about possible new builds, meta changes (if any), new runes/sigils, etc.

It gets more done.

But here’s a hanky.

Sebrent.3625:

Meh, I’ll pass and do something constructive … like talk about possible new builds, meta changes (if any), new runes/sigils, etc.

It gets more done.

But here’s a hanky.

You seem to think I have tears…

I donnnt~

just a note, I am very happy with the adrenal change, as a GS/LB warr.

And I have nothing against mesmers.

Sebrent.3625:

People stating that “it’s game breaking to lose adrenaline outside of combat” …

What do you think Mesmers have been doing with their Illusions and Shatters since even beta?
(1) Our target dies
(2) Our illusions all die because our target died
(3) We have nothing to shatter with and 2/5 of our weapon skills just auto-killed themselves because our target died.

Not to mention that illusions can be killed by a stiff breeze in most Mesmer builds. Can your adrenaline disappear due to a stray AOE or bouncing attacks? No?

---

Now let’s talking about losing adrenaline when your burst skill misses.

A Mesmer shatters. If they miss, their Illusions are still gone and they need to replenish them. However, on top of this, those illusions can be killed before they shatter … I can have 3 illusions out, tell them to shatter my target, and then a stray AOE kills them.

But, sure, it’s game breaking that you lose adrenaline when you miss a burst skill. You just hit with whatever abilities you wanted and/or got hit when Cleansing Ire to gain adrenaline to use your ability. Mesmers used 2/5ths of their weapon skills, any number of utilities, and/or dodge rolls to generate illusions for their shatters.

What’s that you say? Our Illusions do damage before we shatter them? Yes, that is true, but your adrenaline regenerates your health, increases your damage, and/or increases your crit chance depending on your build as well.

---

I hope this highlights how ridiculous it is to complain about losing adrenaline out of combat.

It is far from game-breaking … Mesmers have been dealing with mechanics that are “worse” since the beginning of Guild Wars 2.

On the most part I agree completely with you when it comes to Mesmers. I play both classes a lot, and the main issue really is, the Mesmer can create clones, go into stealth, etc. There’s a general mechanic to confuse enemies for mesmers, although I agree about your point about your illusions just disappearing when your target dies is kinda broken. A warrior on the other hand just kind of stands there (sort of). Sure he can dodge and leap or charge, but closing gaps is a big problem at the start of fights. My point is, the mechanic, although very very similar, playstyle between classes is very different.

I have no qualms about the loss of adrenaline whether you hit with your skill or not, to me, that’s fine. It’s a hit to warriors, but I believe it’s 100% fair. My issue is the loss of adrenaline the moment combat ends, because of the way warriors’ traits are supposed to work in conjunction with adrenaline.

As an example, I use GS a lot, and with my (and a lot of people’s playstyle) I never use the adrenaline skill for GS. The usage of adrenaline is a strategic one because of the way warriors were designed. I used to use the “increases crit chance depending on adrenal level”, so the way I played that was, build up my adrenaline and never use it for the crit chance increase. Same with berserker’s power, I like to keep my adrenaline and not use it for the trait to work. These traits, to me become useless in general PVE because most mobs die before you can really use it properly.

In WVW, I use it to help survive the burst of condi builds which people, at least in my experience, like to open with. Now I have to take the bulk of it before I can make a move. Without it, we are sitting ducks until after the fight begins. If anything, I think adrenaline should take longer to deteriorate, and at a slower pace. I agree that maintaining all adrenaline all the time is not fair, but going from that to a complete cold turkey is way too much. Even thinking of how adrenaline works realistically, adrenaline doesn’t just go away immediately after an event happens, it takes awhile to calm down.

So like I said, everything you’ve cited is very much valid, but it also seems that it comes more from a point of view of a Mesmer player than a warrior player.

@Wreckless: Very well-written. Kudos.

I understand not using adrenaline in exchange for passive bonuses … I do the same in PvE with my Warrior. It’s nice as you go from mob to mob. I’d say the closest parallel there is Mesmer Phantasm builds that don’t shatter because they’d prefer to have their Phantasms continue to throw down the damage. You make a good point that there is a difference in that some Mesmer builds can stealth fairly often while they let their Illusions do damage. This is true, but, depending on the game mode it is more/less useful. Additionally, Warriors can use those time to make use of their blocks if they have any, LoS the phantasms, block, dodge, etc.. It is harder to keep an eye on a Mesmer AND their Phantasms animations than it is to just keep an eye on one player.

As far as conditions go, then perhaps the answer is that Warriors need to rely on more than just Cleansing Ire when combating conditions. Honestly, when I played a condition build, it was quite frustrating knowing that the Warrior had a condition cleanse on a less than 10s cooldown that was also doing damage to me and/or keeping me off a point if in sPvP.

As far as the drain. It closely resembles what happens with Mesmers between fights/targets but without the added aggravation of stray attacks removing your “resources” from play. I think you describing it as “cold turkey” is quite accurate. Warriors got to benefit from this wonderful implementation they had before and now they are on similar footing to others … though Thief missing stealth attacks without breaking stealth and Necro keeping their bar … meh.

Honestly, with the plethora of ways Warriors can increase their adrenaline gain, one of which being Cleansing Ire, it shouldn’t be too bad for those that apparently must have full adrenaline asap. They just need to adapt to the changes.

Heck, it’s a game with game balance changes. You have to adapt. It’s part of it.

Another thread filled with “meh this nerf is no big deal, just gotta learn your class dudes!” hypocritical kids. Becoming quite obnoxious.

EDIT: Also to Sebrent, I get what you’re saying but you’re not entirely right. It’s way faster to spawn Illus than to resplenish adren (WAY WAY faster). Thus you cannot really compare adren with shattering.

The fastest clone summon is Mirror Blade with a 4.75s cooldown and that requires 4 points in Domination and 3 points in Illusions. That’s for a single illusion.

Are you telling me that you can’t get 1 bar of adrenaline in 4.75 seconds … even with 7 trait points invested?

Sure, each weapon set has a clone summon and a phantasm summon for a total of 4, but they can still be killed, are on decent cooldowns unless spec’d for, and swapping weapons for a Mesmer puts the other weapon set on a 10s cooldown. We don’t have Fast Hands … just pretty butterflies

As far as “hypocritical” …

… do you deny that Mesmers lose their illusions when their target dies (not even out of combat yet … could still be in combat with additional targets)? …

… do you deny that Mesmers lose their illusions even when their shatters miss? …

It’s been that way since before day 1 of GW2.

I was obviously talking about deceptive evasion… Considering Mesmers have 50% vigor uptime aswell, that trait alone provides maybe 60% of the mesmer illu “pool”. And it gives a crapton of those. Again, the fact you can summon illus way faster than adren makes your comparaison moot, I’m sorry.

I mean, you’re right about the fact illus can get killed, disapears between fights etc etc but that’s IRRELEVANT.

EDIT: just to be clear, I play my mesmer way more than my Warrior. I’m being honest here.

Ergolicious.1507:

Another thread filled with “meh this nerf is no big deal, just gotta learn your class dudes!” hypocritical kids. Becoming quite obnoxious.

They must go and play a Warrior for 5 minutes to see the problem, I recommend WvW, they will notice the annoyance immediately and will understand the complains.

First, that is 4 trait points invested.

Second …
Bad Mesmers waste dodges to generate their clones unless they know they have the fight under control enough to go heavily on the offensive.

Good Mesmers know they need their dodges with their other cooldowns in order to not get decked by hard-hitting abilities … we don’t have the highest base hp and highest base armor in the game so active defenses are quite important to us.

Third, the fact that Illusions die to a stiff breeze makes illusion summoning quite frustrating as they are cleaved before they can even be of use … that doesn’t happen to your adrenaline.

Fourth, why are the really bad conditions for Mesmer illusions and shatters irrelevant when they function the same as your adrenaline now does (with the added issue of illusion deaths) ? If a Mesmer can deal with it, why can’t you.

Finally, NeHoMaR. Just because someone doesn’t agree with you doesn’t mean they don’t have hundreds of hours on a warrior. In addition, sure, go do WvW as a Mesmer and tell me how well your illusions stay alive.

First, 99% of builds have this trait because it’s simply too good and considering CORE to the mesmer class (Hell, it could have been implemented INTO the mesmer design even).

Second, against competent players (see: no afk monkeys standing idle but people who will put pressure on you) and playing a shatter build, you HAVE to dodge to spawn illus fast enough.

Third, yes Illus die fast. I didn’t deny it. And that’s the challening part of playing a shatter build; summoning 3 illus asap and having the opportunity to detonate them all before they die. (the adren nerf on Warrior doesn’t make it challenging, it makes it barely PLAYABLE).

Fourth, you don’t get it. You’re saying Warriors shouldn’t complain because Mesmer have exactly the SAME difficulty to have Illus up, like Warriors to get adren. That’s wrong because Mesmers don’t have the same difficulty. Thus, the fact you say “You lose adrenaline outside of combat? I lose Illusions outside of combat.
You lose adrenaline when you miss? I lose Illusions when I miss.” is irrelevant.

If you still don’t see the difference, i’m sorry. I cannot be more clear.

EDIT: remember aswell that, Berzerker stance, the biggest adrenaline pooling skill has been batnerfed too (and it has a huge cd.

you cant compare another class to warrior to justify an argument. Because no other class is being held to the same standard as warriors.

@Ergolicious: 99% eh? Please take a look at the following link containing Mesmer builds for a reality check:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/List-Find-your-Mesmer-Builds-Guides/first

Second, you don’t have to dodge to spawn Illusion fasts enough. Shattering isn’t about spamming illusions constantly. It’s about shattering at the right time(s). Shatters have cooldowns. Like I said before, a bad Mesmer will waste dodges,etc. to spam illusions. A good Mesmer will know to use them to avoid enemy attacks … unless they have you against the ropes … then you’re already dead and it’s just waiting for the butterflies.

Third, how does the adrenaline nerf make it barely playable? You start with 0 adrenaline. You continue to gain adrenaline throughout the fight (as you’ve always done … minus starting at 0). Heck, think of it like when you first port-in/respawn … you have 0 adrenaline.

Fourth, how is it not the same with adrenaline and illusions?

- Some Warrior only store adrenaline for passive bonuses … Some Mesmers don’t use Shatters so they can keep their passive bonuses from illusions

- Warriors use adrenaline for Burst Skills … Mesmers use Illusions for Shatters

- When a Warrior exits combat, their Adrenaline starts to decay rapidly … when a Mesmer exits combat, they don’t have a target so their Illusions all die … also, when a Mesmer is still in combat but their target dies their Illusions die as well.

- When a Warrior misses with a burst skill, they lose their Adrenaline … when a Mesmer misses with a shatter (or the illusions die before shattering) they lose all their illusions.

Some very strong parallels there.

@Warlord: are you going to dispute how similar these parallels are? What standard are you talking about that “Warriors are being held to” ? I didn’t realize there was some separate game system that Warriors existed in by themselves. Does this magical other game system somehow mean these parallels don’t exist?

“Warriors are masters of weaponry who rely on speed, strength, toughness, and heavy armor to survive in battle. Adrenaline fuels their offensive power—the longer warriors stay in a fight, the more dangerous they become.”

I was, and have continued to be, shocked by how well my warrior maintained adrenaline. I am surprised more of you did not see this coming.

I’m confused. I clicked on the forum for warriors but all I’m finding here is talk about mesmers.

Bombul.2506:

“Warriors are masters of weaponry who rely on speed, strength, toughness, and heavy armor to survive in battle. Adrenaline fuels their offensive power—the longer warriors stay in a fight, the more dangerous they become.”

I was, and have continued to be, shocked by how well my warrior maintained adrenaline. I am surprised more of you did not see this coming.

Sure, nerf adrenaline. But a decent number of skills and traits that rely on it took huge indirect nerfs without so much as a single thought for compensation.

If we’re lucky we might see that compensation within 6 to 8 months.

I think thats part of what upset so many people about this patch (other than being lied to about arching slice), if you are going to make a very large change to a classes core mechanic, let alone two changes then you need to also adjust the traits and skills tied to that mechanic.

In every part of the game, including the forums, warrior is the whipping boy. Its the way the class is ment to be played. No access to protection, blind, teleports, invisibility or true invulnerability. We also cant cast multible damaging abilities at once. So to compensate our abilities hit hard.

After spending 2 years rolling back our damage, making our burst skills less impressive, they whip out this change and if arena net remains true to form we wont see any improvement for another 6 months. Its like they have one person working on the balance team and no quality assurance.

Draining adrenaline on a miss is fine, just means must actually be mindful of using the burst skill, but the out of combat adrenaline drain is pretty severe. For example, using Berserker Stance while getting to a team fight on a point to open with Combustive Shot doesn’t exist anymore. Being out of combat, Berserker Stance drains faster than it can build any adrenaline, and I liked having the option of trading condition immunity to having my normal rotation and opening burst for situational control.

So, fine, whatever, I’ll wait to get into combat to use it. However, now that Berserker Stance builds significantly less adrenaline and much more slowly, I find myself just autoattacking for what feels like forever before those three bars of adrenaline fill up. By then, I’ve taken a fair amount of damage since warriors have no choice but to fight, for lack of a better term, honestly (no reliable aegis, stealth, teleport, etc), and having a less reliable Cleansing Ire with less overall adrenaline and it just feels bad. It’s the flow of the warrior that’s changed pretty significantly, and it no longer feels like the same profession. It’s acceptable when certain builds and skills and utilities feel kitten, not when it’s the profession’s entire mechanic upon which so many traits and gameplay flow rely.

Haven’t had less fun playing the game at any point in time (also maining necro) than I have since this patch and that includes betas and day -3 when so many things were broken and/or malfunctioning. BRB 6 months maybe idk.