Guild Wars 2

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/sPvP-Class-Tier-List/first

From this thread, it is obvious that warrior is considered at a disadvantage against every other class. The consensus was also clear that D/D ele was the strongest overall class.

Comparing and contrasting the two, we can make a few deductions:

• Base armor and HP make no difference to survivability:*

ele’s have the lowest base HP and armor yet are considered the most survivable class, with warriors being considered the least survivable

• Mobility, evades and boons are hugely important to viability:*

Warrior’s boons almost entirely center around might, fury and swiftness, with a side of vigor tied to one weapon. Meanwhile the strong classes have strong access to a variety of boons, most importantly regen and protection, to the point where these seem almost a requirement.

Warrior does not lack in mobility on paper with GS/swordX but without viable condition removal and gap closers affected by chills/cripples, this is not the case in reality.

But the combination of mobility, immunities and boons is also the problem causing the perceived OPness of D/D eles.

We have to also consider the unique things warriors have:

- shouts: guardians’ shouts are frankly better
- immobilises: really?
- stuns: maybe, but it doesn’t seem to have helped
- burst: predictable and thus avoidable static burst without escapes is not good enough
- stances: these could definitely use some cooldown reductions and maybe some unikittenfects

- banners: here we go

Maybe we need to look at banners again.

Make something out of those, and tie them meaningfully to warrior mechanics and gameplay. Maybe tie their effects to adrenaline or make them encourage the spending of adrenaline by unleashing effects when adrenaline abilities are used.

As it stands, banners are unwieldy and static. What could be done to make them more engaging:

- Banners create combo fields when adrenaline is spent
- Banners give distortion / stealth when adrenaline is spent
- Banners can be activated by friendlies to cause aoe CC or even as teleport points

“Base armor and HP Make no difference to survivability”
Idiotic assumption. That make a HUGE difference. It’s simply that stun, gap closer, and condition removal are of higher priority.

I agree that we need some reliable closer and/or removal… or more maybe…
But there is absolutely nothing wrong with might, fury, and swiftness… that’s basically what a warrior should have.

Shouts – FGJ… enough said… lol
Stances – agreed… ridiculous CD
Burst – I’m assuming you’re using a GS… in which I will say lol… I never go GS in sPvP
Stuns – Our stuns are good, it’s just the rest besides the time the enemy is stunned… they can simply run away, recharge, return.

CookMETEnder.7582:

“Base armor and HP Make no difference to survivability”
Idiotic assumption. That make a HUGE difference. It’s simply that stun, gap closer, and condition removal are of higher priority.

Base armor and HP make no difference. Access to protection and regen boons alone outweigh by far the HP and armor difference between a warrior and guardian/ele

CookMETEnder.7582:

“Base armor and HP Make no difference to survivability”
Idiotic assumption. That make a HUGE difference. It’s simply that stun, gap closer, and condition removal are of higher priority.

Let me correct it then, mr. semantics.

“Base armor and HP make no substantial difference to survivability.”

So it was a bad idea rolling a warrior for my first class?

Inb4
“But.. but.. heavy armor”
“But.. but.. high health”

Some people still think in traditional MMO logics, as if armor/health mattered versus very strong tools like Mes/Thief stealth, Ele’s crazy self-healing/tankiness, Guardian’s Prot/regen, etc.

GW2 is not WoW where you slot “block” and “armor rating” and magically you’re invincible, the power of a class comes from its unique skills/mechanics here.

Warrior is definitely UP in sPvP.
Not in WvW only because damage scales very well with PvE gear.

I agree. But even if warriors are the weakest, I like it best. It is a fun class to play. And there are always newbies to pawn. >3<

darthsmall.8246:

So it was a bad idea rolling a warrior for my first class?

For pve you’re okay there since any profession does well in it, but for pvp you’re pretty limited like some other professions.

Only professions I’ve that have high health pools even though that does not matter much in pvp are warriors, engineers, rangers and necros while others are under 20k hp, but still does decent in pvp.

The actually value of heavy armor versus light armor is 15% damage reduction…well it rounds up to 15%.

The ironic thing is that we’d be a lot more viable if we just had our skills un-bugged and the BWE nerfs undone.
We were made weaker back when other professions were underdeveloped, now that they are as good as we used to be, we should simply be un-castrated.
Fixing Warrior is probably the easiest task compared to say fixing Necro or Engi, just un-nerf Evis/Brawn and fix Rush/Bull’s charge.

Noctis Assassin.4035:

The actually value of heavy armor versus light armor is 15% damage reduction…well it rounds up to 15%.

It’s 13.68% from light to heavy.

OMG no way shocker i would never ever imagine that warrior is weakest class common you guys i got 100 blades and so much hp and this heavy looking armor voters are bought and sold to cover the truth !

xiv.7136:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/sPvP-Class-Tier-List/first

From this thread,

Let me stop you here. That’s a “public opinion poll” from a public forum, open to everyone and anyone. And that means anyone.

The results are therefore roughly as accurate and scientific as throwing wet noodles at a canvas to predict stock market fluctuations. The results are good for a solid laugh and that’s about it.

Actually, its a consensus from consistent tPvP players.

As the maker of the thread, I weeded out those whose opinions seemed bias in their reason.

The list is actually fairly consistent with what’s occurring in tPvP.

It’s obvious in tPvP for example that Ele’s are at the top of the most wanted list, with Warriors at the bottom. The classes that filled in in the middle were shown to be the most wanted classes for a team composition in tPvP.

Defektive.7283:

Actually, its a consensus regarding consistent tPvP players.

As the maker of the thread, I weeded out those whose opinions seemed bias in their reason.

The list is actually fairly consistent with what’s occurring in tPvP.

Anyone who really pvps understand the situation warriors are in. I have no idea how you guys with the hammer or other specs manage. The survivability of my GS is something I can’t let go of and allows me to disengage. I used a hammer for about 2 hours today and boy, apples and oranges.

Daokitten618:

Defektive.7283:

Actually, its a consensus regarding consistent tPvP players.

As the maker of the thread, I weeded out those whose opinions seemed bias in their reason.

The list is actually fairly consistent with what’s occurring in tPvP.

Anyone who really pvps understand the situation warriors are in. I have no idea how you guys with the hammer or other specs manage. The survivability of my GS is something I can’t let go of and allows me to disengage. I used a hammer for about 2 hours today and boy, apples and oranges.

Correct. In tPvP, GS outshines almost all other weapon sets and builds. Its for reasons like these that the Tier List was created in order to get a community consensus on each class. The goal in mind is to create a simply list to ArenaNet on how the community sees different classes performing in tPvP.

I don’t understand why people keep saying Warrior has no “viable” condition removal. Somehow I think this comes from players who assume they can stand in the front line all day, swinging away. Of course more conditions will pile up on you than you will ever be able to remove if you are first in line and stay there. Warrior also has fantastic mobility period and does the most damage in the game BY FAR. Ele on the other hand has one build with extreme synergy that manages to get almost every boon in the game almost all the time, which is of course broken and will be toned down. Aside from that the Elementalist is a pretty weak profession that needs WAY more improvements than Warrior.

Xolo.3580:

mobility period and does the most damage in the game BY FAR

Sry but Thief outdamaged warrior, and thief shortbow blink skill is also awesome, war both in term of dmg and mobility are good but not among the best.

Red Falcon.8257:

The ironic thing is that we’d be a lot more viable if we just had our skills un-bugged and the BWE nerfs undone.
We were made weaker back when other professions were underdeveloped, now that they are as good as we used to be, we should simply be un-castrated.
Fixing Warrior is probably the easiest task compared to say fixing Necro or Engi, just un-nerf Evis/Brawn and fix Rush/Bull’s charge.

Noctis Assassin.4035:

The actually value of heavy armor versus light armor is 15% damage reduction…well it rounds up to 15%.

It’s 13.68% from light to heavy.

RIP Triple Axe Warrior. You were fun.

Prepare yourselves for tooltip fixes on 26th. I’ll bring icecream and we can QQ together while we read the patch notes.

Every-time I play my warrior I cry because I know the class is in a situation that more than likely won’t be fixed. They won’t give us things like practical healing or buffs that don’t require a kitten banner. Or better yet, shouts that are actually defensive. Trait lines that don’t give minor traits based off of reviving people. Or being able to make our Burst skill useful, everyone else gets at least 3 skills for there function keys that can be invested to for multiple play styles, why can’t we?

So yes, until we get practical traits and skills for multiple builds I’m stuck running glass cannon HB. Which by the way is being replaced by the Engis Hundred Nades now.

All we can do is QQ and hope we get something this next patch.

Defektive.7283:

As the maker of the thread, I weeded out those whose opinions seemed bias in their reason.

No offense, but this is kind of ironic. You clearly main a warrior and are very vocal about the problems you see with the profession. The little “sad face” category sort of makes me feel like you yourself have a bit of a bias.

Leadfoot.9071:

Defektive.7283:

As the maker of the thread, I weeded out those whose opinions seemed bias in their reason.

No offense, but this is kind of ironic. You clearly main a warrior and are very vocal about the problems you see with the profession. The little “sad face” category sort of makes me feel like you yourself have a bit of a bias.

Of course I have a bias for a Warrior! It’s my baby!

But all the data is in plain sight for people to view, everyone voted the Warrior down to the bottom. I haven’t even used my own list in the aggregation of the community one.

If 30 people came on and voted the warrior up, I’d have to bring the Warrior up the list simply because anybody can view the votes via the thread and could call me out on it.

The mere fact that all the votes are in plain sight is in itself my own accountability.

There are a few lists where the voter implied they were joking and here’s their joke list. Those are the type of posts I weed out.

slow cleanse and burst damage un nerf, then we would be like #3 easily

Defektive.7283:

Actually, its a consensus from consistent tPvP players.

As the maker of the thread, I weeded out those whose opinions seemed bias in their reason.

The list is actually fairly consistent with what’s occurring in tPvP.

It’s obvious in tPvP for example that Ele’s are at the top of the most wanted list, with Warriors at the bottom. The classes that filled in in the middle were shown to be the most wanted classes for a team composition in tPvP.

So what you’re saying is that you removed the votes of those you didn’t agree with? That seems much more credible already.

It’s not just an amalgamation of random opinions, it’s an admittedly biased amalgamation of random opinions!

ProxyDamage.9826:

Defektive.7283:

Actually, its a consensus from consistent tPvP players.

As the maker of the thread, I weeded out those whose opinions seemed bias in their reason.

The list is actually fairly consistent with what’s occurring in tPvP.

It’s obvious in tPvP for example that Ele’s are at the top of the most wanted list, with Warriors at the bottom. The classes that filled in in the middle were shown to be the most wanted classes for a team composition in tPvP.

So what you’re saying is that you removed the votes of those you didn’t agree with? That seems much more credible already.

It’s not just an amalgamation of random opinions, it’s an admittedly biased amalgamation of random opinions!

I’ll be more specific in the methodology:
These are real posts, found in that thread.

Example 1

From the PoV of playing many classes.
1. Ele
2. Ranger
3. Guardian
4. Mesmer
5. Thief
6. Engineer
7. Necromancer
8. Warrior

From the PoV of a Guardain
1. Ranger
2. Guardian
3. Necromancer
4. Mesmer
5. Ele
6. Engineer
7. Warrior
8. Thief

In this scenario, I disregarded his List from a Guardians POV since that in itself is biased (since some classes are built to deny other classes).

However, I end up using his list “PoV from many classes”.

Example 2:

From a Bunker Guardian’s POV:
1. Elementalist
2. Mesmer
3. Ranger
4. Guardian
5. Necromancer
6. Engineer
7. Thief
8. Warrior
From a general POV:
1. Elementalist
2. Mesmer
3. Guardian
4. Ranger
5. Engineer
6. Necromancer
7. Thief
8. Warrior

Same methodology. Used the list entitled ‘general POV’ instead of using the more biased one.

The inherent goal of the thread is to get a litmus test from the community on the general effectiveness of a class in a tPvP setting.

Bias in any form would obviously skew the results, and seeing as how the votes are coming in in different forms and body styles it is difficult to transfer all of that into a correct data set such as SQL or Access or Excel.

Due to those complications, I go line by line in Excel. Comparing everyones votes to the current list available. Based on number of votes provided and by the tier they appear, the classes are adjusted accordingly.

this is why Tpvp is complete garbage atm. with conquest being their main game mode, only class’s that can effectively bunker/heal will be viable. since to “win” you don’t even have effectively kill the opposition. unless Anet plans on giving warriors protection/regen/effective condi removal don’t get your hopes up of being in the top 5. its the same for all mmo’s that have conquest, may there be the trinity or not, unless you can tank/heal your not wanted. why developers love the concept of pve to win pvp is beyond mind-boggling.

Defektive.7283:

The inherent goal of the thread is to get a litmus test from the community on the general effectiveness of a class in a tPvP setting.

Bias in any form would obviously skew the results, and seeing as how the votes are coming in in different forms and body styles it is difficult to transfer all of that into a correct data set such as SQL or Access or Excel.

Due to those complications, I go line by line in Excel. Comparing everyones votes to the current list available. Based on number of votes provided and by the tier they appear, the classes are adjusted accordingly.

I think you misunderstood. The core problem of that thread (or similar threads) is not your data collection methodology. That was just a mandatory jab at how you presented your previous point. You made it seem like you removed answers which you didn’t consider reasonable, based on your own judgement, which is inevitably biased.

But that was an aside. The core of your problem is your sample. Your data collection could be absolutely perfect, but it’s all for naught because of your population: Anyone. Most people playing any game, the absolute brunt of any game’s player base, are bad players. They’re the people who play these games to turn their brains off and “just chill”. They’re not the players who study a game. Who develop tactics, strategies, and engulf themselves in the intricacies of the game’s mechanics. That’s not even accounting for all the people, and they are many, who simply aren’t very intelligent at this sort of thing. In ANY game you choose to look, you’ll find examples of the average player base complaining extensively about “OP!!” things that have ridiculously easy counters once you look into it.

Ever played Street Fighter? Take Saggat or Ryu against a new player and just mindlessly spam fireballs and shoryukens. Watch them explode in rage at how OP it is. Don’t try that against a good player or the round is over before it even begins. And if you do understand anything of the game and want a laugh, compare professional tier lists and match up by informed and knowledgeable professional players, with “popular opinion” tier lists and match up info.

If you’ve ever been to the League of Legends forum about halfway through season 2, you will inevitably have seen one of the countless “Darius is OP!!!!” threads, despite the fact that Darius was never anywhere close to OP, and was, in fact, one of the easiest characters to utterly mutilate in the game.

Any FPS ever, regardless of actual balance? “Snipers are OP!”.

In Bad Company 2’s “Hardcore” mode (the developers had a sense of sarcastic humor I presume) the heavy sniper rifles killed with one shot. Every scrub on the face of that game called them OP. Nevermind that assault rifles had very similar range, ranged from semi to fully automatic, and killed you with 4 automatic body shots or 1/2 headshots, effectively rendering the sniper nigh useless. In non-hardcore mode the heaviest sniper rifle could only one-hit-kill with a headshot. The time it took to do this was marginally inferior to killing someone with a 2/4 round burst to the head of most assault rifles (we’re talking miliseconds), and the difficult involved in it was exponentially larger the closer the target was… Snipers were, in public view, OP.

Like these you can find many, many, many more examples across roughly every game. The point is simple: Average public opinion means kitten all when it comes to any objective assessment of balance. Your thread is flawed because it’s roughly equivalent to polling random people on the street technical information about the LHC…

I understand your concerns, hence why its a community poll. This isn’t Arena Nets sample size as we understandably don’t have access to that information.

This is a poll to show community perception of class rank based on our dealings in tPvP.

There’s no other way to slice it and obviously no way to satisfy you in that regard. But unfortunately there is little I can do until ArenaNet opens up an API where I can pull data from their servers.

tPvP doesn’t have a huge following due to a number of flaws. The point of the thread was to show how the community perceives one of the major aggressors in tPvP’s demise – community perception of class imbalance.

Apologies that I can’t have a perfect poll. But I don’t work for ArenaNet so I’m making due where I can.

EDIT: Regarding the pollers being equivalent to everyday citizens being questioned over the LHC.

The remaining s/tPvPers are dedicated to s/tPvP. While there are a number of new comers, many players who still play today have been around for months and have a rank of 30+.

These players have been around the barn long enough to have a reasonable idea of class imbalanced in structured PvP.

It’s funny how some will still deny the terrible position Warrior is in, even with the poll. Anyone that played Warrior without the “honey-moon” effect would see its flaws. Lets just ignore the laughter and obviously flawed class design philosophy from Anet themselves.

Some are way too stubborn to accept that this class seriously needs help(PvP anyway).
I loved running into a warrior 1v1, the class is so predictable, takes more damage than a T-shirt wearer(and classes with MUCH less hp), and is easily locked down. A warrior is only annoying when they burst through the crowd. Solution? Target and focus him down in seconds.

It’s now 6-7 months later and Warrior still doesn’t have protection yet. The 1 boon, combined with regen, that actually allows you to take damage in this game. Armour types are useless.

Also, not 1 of our pitiful tier 3 skills worked on…

Wow, the jury makes a decision based on 3 whole pages of forum posts.

Well yeah of course they’ll be voted weakest. Nearly all of the warriors I have met just run 100blades. Easy to anticipate, dodge and counter when you see the warrior carrying a gs. Maybe if they dared try a different build maybe they wouldn’t be so low.

That’s the classes BEST build… The game has been out long enough for everyone to test and try other setups. Everything else falls very short compared to GS + x/shield. It tries to cover the classes major flaws by being more mobile and killing asap.

Penguin.5197:

Well yeah of course they’ll be voted weakest. Nearly all of the warriors I have met just run 100blades. Easy to anticipate, dodge and counter when you see the warrior carrying a gs. Maybe if they dared try a different build maybe they wouldn’t be so low.

what class isn’t predictable at this point? especially in Tpvp where there is little to no build diversity, class’s basically have 1 viable build. the predictability of the class doesn’t matter, people are going to land it regardless of how good someone is just like all the other predictable builds/combos.

LordSlack.4685:

Wow, the jury makes a decision based on 3 whole pages of forum posts.

It’s really 3 pages of dedicated PVP players – and not by people obsessed with their HB crits on mobs in PVE.

The survey wasn’t done on the general forum.

Akumu.7238:

It’s funny how some will still deny the terrible position Warrior is in, even with the poll.

Most people will judge a class’ PvP strength by its performance in WvW where the Warrior is pretty good.
That’s why they come here saying it’s fine, they simply don’t play sPvP so they don’t know our situation there.

I play 7 of the classes in spvp, i dont think that elementalists are that overpowered, they have some great builds, but nothing really overpowered. But what makes them feel unballanced is the fact that they can escape any fight they normally would loose.

I am personally very excited about the ballance so far, but things i have noted and need some attention..

- Warrior condition removabillity is just a tad to low
- Engineer damage capabillities are lower then all other classes.
- Elementalist can escape any situation or prevent others from escaping their wrath.

But in general there is a certain order in the buils, working like rock, scissors, paper.
Bunker > glasscanon > condition build > bunker. Sounds very easy but its true, on each classbuild i have trouble with different players and builds. And that makes the game great fun.

And keep in mind that not all builds are equally viable, a bad build ruins a characters performance.

That would be true if some of the better bunker builds didn’t also have like 20 ways to remove a condition.

I mean have you ever tried to kill a bunker elementalist with conditions…good luck with that.

Warriors are good for running away in WvW. And for CoF p1 farm.

There needs to be a trait for banners to be put on as a backpack instead so its mobile.

Or just change them into auras completely that buffs allies. But then that’d feel like a guardian I guess.

oh well looks like that’s that

ANET is useless trash. I’m waiting until another company takes over GW2.

Schwahrheit.4203:

ANET is useless trash. I’m waiting until another company takes over GW2.

Completely agree. Im really feel like i playing a game made by amateurs, lacking features, no idea about balance, 1 pvp type mode for over 6 months called esport..LOL

GW2 itself is nice, just different company has to buy it out and clean that mess.

I were think Diablo 3 is a fail, GW2 in current state beating it.

Yeah. Because 99% of warriors run gs with 20 to 30 traits in power precision. I do fine with my hammer.

Scoobaniec.9561:

Schwahrheit.4203:

ANET is useless trash. I’m waiting until another company takes over GW2.

Completely agree. Im really feel like i playing a game made by amateurs, lacking features, no idea about balance, 1 pvp type mode for over 6 months called esport..LOL

GW2 itself is nice, just different company has to buy it out and clean that mess.

I were think Diablo 3 is a fail, GW2 in current state beating it.

And haha this guy… I don’t see why people love to hate gw2 so much. They can’t still be but hurt after 6 months from being let down because of the hype THEY created?!?

Mattidore.3482:

Yeah. Because 99% of warriors run gs with 20 to 30 traits in power precision. I do fine with my hammer.

I run with DW sword and LB mostly. Hammer is pretty awesome but most go with GS and the other thing because of burst damage and mobility.

Brutalistik.6473:

Mattidore.3482:

Yeah. Because 99% of warriors run gs with 20 to 30 traits in power precision. I do fine with my hammer.

I run with DW sword and LB mostly. Hammer is pretty awesome but most go with GS and the other thing because of burst damage and mobility.

And that’s why most warriors suck at pvp and that’s why warrior is in e lowest tier

Mattidore.3482:

Brutalistik.6473:

Mattidore.3482:

Yeah. Because 99% of warriors run gs with 20 to 30 traits in power precision. I do fine with my hammer.

I run with DW sword and LB mostly. Hammer is pretty awesome but most go with GS and the other thing because of burst damage and mobility.

And that’s why most warriors suck at pvp and that’s why warrior is in e lowest tier

I guess only you know the secret OP warrior build. 10+ months of player theorycrafting is about to be proven wrong in one swift stroke. Please share your knowledge with https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp

Enlighten those heathens.

Larynx.2453:

Mattidore.3482:

Brutalistik.6473:

Mattidore.3482:

Yeah. Because 99% of warriors run gs with 20 to 30 traits in power precision. I do fine with my hammer.

I run with DW sword and LB mostly. Hammer is pretty awesome but most go with GS and the other thing because of burst damage and mobility.

And that’s why most warriors suck at pvp and that’s why warrior is in e lowest tier

I guess only you know the secret OP warrior build. 10+ months of player theorycrafting is about to be proven wrong in one swift stroke. Please share your knowledge with https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp

Enlighten those heathens.

The secret is accepting as it is going with the flow hoping for something to change for the better in the future. That’s the secret…

Sorry guys.

I put banners in there and ………

xiv.7136:

Sorry guys.

I put banners in there and ………

Ya, now we totally viable and can pwn everyone with our MIGHTY BANNERS OF JUSTICE