Guild Wars 2

This is a rhetorical question.

Why I understand it might be too early to judge, atm I think the real answer is:

Nothing that makes them worth having them on your team.

It’s not that we don’t do anything well, Rampage is strong, a bit too strong, and some builds are fairly powerful. However, builds like Hammer/GS or even my favorite build Skullcracker are almost purely selfish builds. Now that Shoutbow is basically dead and Hambow is meh due to the competition between Merciless Hammer and Burst Mastery there’s not a whole lot of extra buffs/heals we can effectively bring to the table.

CC: We have great CC…but now so does Mes. Maybe not in as a dramatic fashion as us, but it’s also generally instant or at least less telegraphed than Hammer and Mace.

Damage: Again, damage is good, but again Mes can do it just as well and arguably easier. Rampage is pretty strong but also fairly easy to counter. Teef also has good damage but also brings AoE stealth.

Mobility: Many other classes, including Mes, Teef, Guard, and Necro can abuse the Z axis in some way to bypass terrain. With the GS mobility nerf (which is what I would call it overall) we just can’t compete.

Team Support: Once again, Shouts were nerfed and Hambow just feel bad but doesn’t feel amazing either. Guards especially can bring AoE team support while still dealing good damage AND be strong 1v1.

I’m writing this because I flew a bit off the handle today because I saw people in the Mists over-exaggerating the strength of Warriors. One claimed that Shouts made us invincible, another said that Stances did. Anyone who has played Warrior for an extensive period knows this is just not true. Other claimed that Hammer/GS (Calling it Greatham from now on) would be the new meta while failing to adequately answer the simple question of what does that Guard or Mes can’t. It may become our “Meta,” but only in the way that Ranger has a “Meta” in that it’s the best they got but still isn’t that amazing.

The ONE thing I can think of is that we have good Quickness uptime if you bring both Frenzy and Heightened Focus…but if they wanted Guard and Mes could bring that as well. Wouldn’t be as good as ours but it would still be decent.

I fear we may end up falling to the wayside in both PvP and WvW because we just don’t bring enough to the table. Outside of Skullcracker there’s also a lot less fun new synergies to mess around with (Guard looks to have some really fun ones). It seems likely that Rampage will get hit with the nerf bat eventually and even now a Mes can bring Moa when they see a War and basically counter the one thing we have going for us.

After spending so much time and effort on my Warrior I’m going to be sad if we go back to how we were at launch: one trick ponies that squash bad players but crumble to anyone with a bit of skill.

hmmm i think those players you met in the mist lobby are probably casual hotjoin players so just ignore them.

anyway it is also kinda sad as well since their minority voices are kinda heard and warriors received many unjustified nerfs due to their unfair assessment of warriors.

well at least warriors can be still good fun in casual hotjoin.

in actual competitive 5 vs 5 i think not.

The analysis on aptitudes looks pretty accurate to me, but one should not consider each aptitude independently, rather as a combination brought by builds. I have no opinion yet as to what could work best in a team composition, but would be surprised if no combination manages to be useful to a team.

In PvP, Mobility + Control + Damage (incl. Quickness and Unblockable) + Active Defense gives good potential in group fights, roaming, and possibly contest. I’ve been playing a Berserker with Mace/Shield, Stances and Rousing Resilience, and have been performing adequately in these aspects. +1 are simply devastating. A mesmer might do better in some situations, but not all of them (because the defense we have helps quite a bit in node management).

In WvW, I think that Control + Blast Finishers + Cleansing + Passive Defense maintains a good potential for a frontliner, but I don’t guild-run or zerg anymore, so wouldn’t be definite in that regard.

So far, I don’t feel powerless with my warrior, whether it is PvE, PvP or WvW. Sure, other classes have been buffed, and there are new things to learn (sometimes painfully). But I’m increasingly becoming familiar with the new skills and patterns of other classes, and not unsatisfied with my class.

As for chat in HotM (and to a certain extent on forums), you should always consider it with caution. There are tons of players getting massacred by lots of classes, and stating “XXX [class|trait|skill] is OP”, out of frustration and ignorance. I’ve seen experienced players complaining about Guardian’s burning, while standing in Purging Flames for many seconds… Generally speaking, most people don’t like change, they dislike being thrown out of their comfort zone, and react viscerally against it. They see change as a risk rather than an opportunity.

@Elegie.3620 Thank you for the thoughtful response. You are right that the combination of aptitudes is important, and time will tell if we got what it takes (sounds like we have similar builds). I’m basing my opinion based on the fact that the playbase seems to gravitate towards each build having a main strength in addition to some sort of support.

Teef and Mes have AoE stealth, Guards have some condi cleanse and Stability. These classes fill the same damage dealer role as Warrior but they bring something more as well. Rampage can be a game winner…or totally destroyed by focus fire.

As for chat…what really gets me is when people say what I said is wrong or that I’m stupid without actually providing any evidence to the contrary. Or when they do it’s probably wrong and when I use facts to prove them wrong they just repeat it as if I hadn’t said anything and go back to personal attacks. That being said I was the one who started off by complaining about our classes current issues (though I gave warning before I started ranting). Of course, they both ended up either blocking me or leaving without disputing what i said so I guess it’s a “win.”

To somewhat reiterate the complaints on Warriors that we’ve all heard time and time again, Warrior in design is a simple class. We all know Warriors have obvious and long tells but when the skill lands, it’s usually devastating in damage or CC or both. The Inexperienced and the supposed “experienced” players complain because they take full Warrior combos that destroy them, get rag dolled by CCs, and lesser complaints like mobility(lol please), “highest HP and armor(cuz that matters)”, “wtf Healing Signet op sustain”, and many others. Due to Warrior’s relative ease of use, these players jump on the bandwagon for 5 mins and wreck other inexperienced players. So the circlejerk began and Warrs became a target of complaints that led to both justified and much more unjustified nerfs.

Let me take an example from WoW during the WotLK expac. Protection specced Warrs were akin to if GW2 Warriors had GS + Sword mobility, Mace/Shield + Hammer lockdown, and Eviscerate all in one build. Prot Warrs could lockdown a single target for 10+ seconds while dealing huge burst damage at the same time and often dropped clothies in a single combo. They had incredible mobility to stick on targets and amazing damage mitigation skills that allowed them to be defensive and offensive at the same time. They were later nerfed in damage and mobility.

While GW2 Warrs were never OP like pre-nerfed Prot Warrs, there were several resemblances that subjected them to complaints and their eventual nerfs: CC + high damage in multiple skills and the ability to stick on a targets face while ignoring/mitigating incoming damage. Hammer damage has been considerably nerfed over time and our ability to stick on targets has lowered due to nerfs/bugs and buffs to other classes. Warriors current lifeline, Rampage, has an almost complete package of CC + immense damage, damage mitigation, and difficulty in peeling unless focused. This skill has become one of the main complaints of the current state of Warriors but even this skill has several ways to counterplay. As you can see, there’s a trend in what players complain about: they absolutely despise things that can sit on their face for extended periods while mitigating damage and dishing out damage and/or CC at the same time.

However, that’s where the legitimate complaints end. I’m not advocating for Warriors to be unstoppable juggernauts like when Anet had a light bulb pop in their head and gave us Berserker Stance, but without such abilities it leaves much to be desired. Those players who bandwagoned to play Warriors do not understand what it’s like to truly play Warrior and their underlying problems. Due to Warriors being inherently melee based and thus subjected to kiting, whiffing our telegraphed skills is extremely punishable. The amount of invuln, invis, blocks, and blind spam the game currently has exacerbates it even further. We went from the game’s free kill to OP Hambow to OK Hambow to Shoutbow and now barely holding on with Rampage. Honestly I feel a lot of this falls on Anet’s philosophy on Warriors where they designed them to be simple and until that changes, I do not see Warriors changing for the better. I think it’s best to wait for many heavy balance changes to be made before determining what roles Warriors can do. It’s just a sad time to be playing a Warrior.

currently i don’t wanna have more than 1 warr on the team tpvp really ..

it becomes quite a burden if you have 2 or more in tpvp ( usually 2 max these days )

it’s also funny and dull that nowadays ppl are playing exactly like what it used to be before healing signet.

running around using GS to engage and disengage …

Liza.2758:

running around using GS to engage and disengage …

well, nowadays, even in hotjoin, if my warrior is 1 v 1 ing some one on point and i see another foe coming from a distance, i’m dead if i do not use greatsword to run away.

It’s the only glass cannon in the game that can hold and keep a point safe. So you fill both Delay (Something that can stand on point and keep it capped) and Carry role essentially. You can pretty much allow another point holder like Ele or Guardian to reset if the situation calls for it. Thief and Mesmer can’t really hold a point if specced as Zerk.

Warrior stun lock is even more rewarding than Mesmer because Skull Crack is 4 seconds with paralyzation and tremor just hits so hard point blank on a 2 second knock down. It’s just HARDER TO LAND. That’s all. Thief has to push even more than both Mesmer and Warrior atm to be effective.

Funny story, they can take away the Peak Performance trait for Rampage and it will still be useful. And because of Rampage and how rewarding Warrior skills are when they land as Zerker, Warrior can literally counter-pressure for allies better depending on how good you are when you are aggressive. When I mean counter-pressure, I mean alleviating certain situations for allies such as focus fire. Who do you focus, the Mesmer who can down your team or the Warrior who can stun lock your team?

Obviously if you haven’t figured this out maining Warrior since launch then I don’t know what to say. They’ve always been able to do this ever since the Zerker Stance patch.

P.S Just gonna laugh at people calling Warrior “simple in design” when this game is about how well do you bait out dodges and stun breaks. Warrior has a harder time doing this than any of these “complex classes” that you talk about such as Ranger and Guardian and you have to mind game better rather than spam once Rampage gets nerfed. Stay ignorant.

Versatility has always been the main reason why some classes/builds became huge parts of their respective meta. Builds which managed to impact the game in many ways, while still outclassing everyone in at least one aspect of the game.

The old Shoutbows are a good example. They were able to backcap with their mobility, duel against anybody, roam or push, bunker against most builds, greatly support their team in big fights and more. They actually outclassed other builds in a few of the aspects of the old meta, while still being this versatile.

The new warrior feels versatile still. Yet, now this seems to come at a rather hard price: full mediocrity. They get outclassed at any aspect of the new meta. May it be support or bunkering, burst, duels, roaming or mobility.

It is the possible game turning Rampage, combined with some options on which role you take that still keeps warriors in some meta teams.

They ground they stand on is a lot more shaky than it used to be, though.

@Burr
I’m having a bit of a conundrum here myself. Warrior is currently both relatively strong, and very fun (this is huge!!) for me to play, in both hotjoin/unranked PvP and WvW.

I feel like I have all the tools and options available I need to succeed. When I die, it’s generally cause I was outplayed, made crucial errors, or just plain got 2v1’d. When I win, I feel like I have earned my victory through battle!

Warrior is in a great spot right now; I was a little concerned about the J23rd patch, but this is, hands-down, the most fun iteration of Warrior to date IMO.

And yet, you have a valid point about Warrior potentially not being viable at the top-top tier, due to not quite filling that niche. Then again, many classes have been there before, and still are.

Not to mention, we still do need minor tweaks/buffs for some of the more useless skills and weapon sets, and a few bugfixes. And I love Rampage, but it needs to be tuned down a bit, I’m too much of a monster with it up. A straight DPS nerf, but with a duration increase and/or access to util skills, could be a cool idea?

Can we bring the lesser stuff up, provide more options, and make War more viable at the top-top tier, without tipping the delicate balance and turning it into an unstoppable beast in other circumstances? I dunno man. I’m at a loss for ideas on how, actually.

It’s possible all that needs to happen is a natural meta shift over time. Right now may be the time for bugfixes, and buffing the crummy options to bring them in line with the stronger and more viable options to increase diversity.

BlackTruth.6813:

snip

BlackTruth, even your most relevant and valid points, carry an obnoxious air of superiority and condescending attitude. You only hurt your own position by acting better than, and talking down to, basically everyone.
I’m not saying you’re right, or wrong. I’m saying you’re so toxic I feel like I need to wear gloves to type a reply to you.

I think a big part of the problem is that warrior synergy doesn’t exist to the level that other classes can synergize. Aside from that, I strongly believe that as a warrior nobody should be able to stand toe to toe and match my melee capabilities apart from guardians. if my hits land they need to hurt and make anyone think twice about getting in my cleave range again. But that’s not how it is, I use many skills and utilities while taking massive ranged damage just to reach my targets and they get away without even trying. Sure our damage is good, but other classes can do just as much damage from a safer distance.

Still love playing it though…..

Warrior is still the king of hard CC… but that’s about it. It used to rule team support too, but now shouts got nerfed into the dumpster…

Thuggernaut.1250:

Warrior is still the king of hard CC… but that’s about it. It used to rule team support too, but now shouts got nerfed into the dumpster…

the CC is good but an interrupt Mesmer has longer more effective CC and apply a bunch of different effects as well.

It’s true. I’m in the process of developing my mesmer skills and I have my eye on Mantra interrupt for when I can take off the PU training wheels.

Honestly, my experience with mes over the last few days is I don’t have to work nearly as hard as I do on my warrior to get good results. I anticipate better cc on the mes than hammer warrior.

And I’m trash on the mes…..

Answer is so obvious that it has been mentioned all the time in all occasions in each and every forum.

Warriors have the BEST HEALTH POOL.

We used to be the best in taking damage but Elementalists took it from us with their 4k armor and critical hit negation. Eat that warriors.

Right now, either insanely high Protection uptime/blocks (elementalists, guardians, engineers) or insanely stupid cheese mechanics (PU) are the most effective. A mesmer can basically stealth up for 10 seconds with 1 skill, then burst another glass cannon 100-0 from stealth, near-instantly. You can not reasonably react in time for you not to be so far behind that you won’t lose the fight, and if you can, you should make money off of it.

This is where I think warrior has a niche right now. We can get highish damage output while retaining clutch and stupid automatic survivability through double EP and GS running away. You also bring a little AoE CC to the table which helps in a teamfight. That’s it though.

I think we do better then thieves right now, as they either get one shot by anything or don’t do enough damage. AoE stealth is nice, but there is another class that gets that now, for a 10 second duration…

and they just take the cake with their infinite stealth and ridiculous control+burst. The PU buff showed again that Anet has no idea what’s going on in a large portion of their game.

I made a Mesmer PU condi build and had it to where my confusion applies blind and blinds apply confusion. why is that even possible lol. My f2 skills applied 3-4 stacks of confusion for each illusion on top of a bunch of torment, bleeds vulnerability, occasionally burn. I used settlers amulet and it was seriously the easiest build I ever played and it easily 1v2 and could last a 1v3. It was outrageous. could go on but don’t want to turn this into a Mesmer hate thread lol.

I have a PU zerk shatter going in wvw. It’s not as easy as yours, but not far behind. Much easier than any warrior build I’ve ever played by far.

No mesmer hate here either but I can tell you my guild is already looking at removing warriors altogether from organized havoc, and we’re one of the most laid back, play what you want, guilds on the server.

Group stealth, group sustain, and massive burst are the skills on order these days, at least for small group to zerg busting. Warriors don’t have the get in, burst, get out that they used to, even though burst is better now.