Guild Wars 2

Ok, Since PvE basically has two builds atm 30/25/0/10/0 (5 to spare) and 30/0/0/10/30 I am wondering what would happen if/when Empower Allies are moved out of range for the 30/0/0/10/30 build.

Getting the 10 extra points needed nerfs dps way too much for anyone taking Empower Allies (170 power vs. 15% dmg or 15% crit chance).

I don’t see an option other than PvE dps to go to the 30/25 build, anyone else who see any alternatives (assuming DPS is the focus, and please don’t turn this into an argument thread of 30/25 vs. 30/0).

Uh, stick it back in Discipline and get your Fast Hands back (for the first one)? I don’t use either of those builds because I don’t tend to rely on an organized group to do everything. I haven’t ever missed Empower Allies.

Basically 30/10/0/0/30 or 30/25/0/0/15 would be the most viable pve builds, with 30/10 having a few percent better DPS.

Neither would bring nearly as much to the table for total party dps as the current meta does.

This isn’t, as has been debated, a nerf to warriors since their DPS will be largely unaffected, but rather a nerf to overall gw2 pve team dps.

Too bad, I really liked the 10 in tactics it offered a lot of flexibility for group composition. Ah well guess its back to being the selfish Zerk warrior for the most of us…

edit: Is 10 points in arms (for bleed I assume) really better than going 10 in Tactics for Inspiring Banners, granted you only gain some mobility due to the range increase and about 20% of the actual value of the banner but 10 points in Arms is meh….

10 points into arms would be for Rending Strikes to give your party a 3% dps boost vs trash and 1.5% boost vs bosses.

Prob still stick with 30/0/0/10/30 for Empowered even if its 1%.

True but in a good group you already have a full stack of vulnerability and especially in any open world event which makes those points circumstantial in most scenarios (although even more so with Rending Strikes).

I kinda stear away from boosts that are minimal and in some cases not even applicable

That said, the Inspiring Banner trait is about 34 power for a BoS or 1.5% Crit Chance/3% Crit Dmg so yes seems in most cases 10 in arms is superior.

I’ll probably run 30/20/0/0/20. The only reason i went 30/0/0/10/30 was for Empower allies. I like having the cd reduction on Wirlwhind. It might not be the most “optimal” for dps, but its still a solid build.

But in the basic warrior rotation you’ll have HB/WW off cooldown by the time you get off axe mace so there’s no need to trait for any more cooldown reductions.

If you are going 20 in arms you may aswell go 25 to get the 10% damage boost on bleeding foes.

I will stick with 30/25/0/0/15 as its better for solo and running sections.

i actually run a 30/30/0/10/0 build for axe/rifle , if they moved it to it 2nd tier id probably not change the build for sake of deperate power/ empowered trait

Puandro.3245:

Prob still stick with 30/0/0/10/30 for Empowered even if its 1%.

I dunno, 5% damage for you (being generous with boons) isn’t as much as 1.5 vuln stacks + 5% crit chance for you.

As for the people who say “any good group will have 25 vuln stacks anyway” I think should record their runs and watch themselves in a boss fight that lasts more than 10 seconds and let me know if they have 25 stacks permanently. With 4 warriors using Axe/mace it is difficult to keep the bar locked at 25 for very long, so some honestly self-assessment is in order there.

As far as the other bizarre build suggestions I’ve seen 30/20/0/20/0 or 30/30/0/10/0 these are low dps options builds and not anywhere close to what will be considered meta for instanced pve.

spoj.9672:

I will stick with 30/25/0/0/15 as its better for solo and running sections.

This is a fair consideration, but the following need be considered…

1. It’s worse in groups do to poor Might stacking.
2. Running sections of the hardest dungeon aren’t difficult with either build so that isn’t particularly relevant.

You could YOLO it and bring a solo build in group settings (plenty of people do) but that’s pretty selfish. As an aside, it’s hilarious to me when people claim to care about running min/min max and trying to perfect everything, only to throw all that effort out because of lazy choices (like using the wrong stacking sigil for their build) or some other snowflake consideration.

If you swap forceful gs for deep strike the might stacking isnt an issue anymore. With that change is the dps brought closer to 30/10/0/0/30 when running heal signet and signet of fury?

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Puandro.3245:

Prob still stick with 30/0/0/10/30 for Empowered even if its 1%.

I dunno, 5% damage for you (being generous with boons) isn’t as much as 1.5 vuln stacks + 5% crit chance for you.

As for the people who say “any good group will have 25 vuln stacks anyway” I think should record their runs and watch themselves in a boss fight that lasts more than 10 seconds and let me know if they have 25 stacks permanently. With 4 warriors using Axe/mace it is difficult to keep the bar locked at 25 for very long, so some honestly self-assessment is in order there.

As far as the other bizarre build suggestions I’ve seen 30/20/0/20/0 or 30/30/0/10/0 these are low dps options builds and not anywhere close to what will be considered meta for instanced pve.

Rending strikes looks good on paper. With 30% condi duration and 90%+ crit chance and an average of 2.3 (hits) a second between GS and Axe its about 6 stacks. 3 Stacks against bosses. 3% dps for the grp against bosses. As good as it seams on paper like i said it never works out as well in-game.

Since the class changes didnt go through today i guess ill wait until official patch day to decide.

Assuming banner of disc, sig of fury, scholar runes and 14 might stacks for 30/25 and 16 might stacks for 30/10…

30/10 with bloodlust: 12224
30/10 with percept: 11731

30/25 (deep strike) with bloodlust: 12213
30/25 (deep strike) with percept: 11911

Pretty much imperceptible. Let’s try now with 25 stacks of Might…

30/10 with BL: 14,478
30/25 with BL: 13,699

This is not what I expected before I crunched the numbers, but it makes sense that the higher power scales with the higher crit damage and higher chance to crit. So when solo the Deep Strike covers the DPS difference nicely, but in a group the extra Might stacks make the cost of failing to crit too high and the 3-4% difference in crit chance and 15% crit damage matters a ton more. I already knew it, but it is interesting how Perception (in a 30/0 build) is about 1% better than bloodlust, but how in 30/10 or 30/25 with DS the Bloodlust is back on top.

Interesting… this is kinda off topic but in those calculations did you do any evaluation of boon duration?

The reason I am asking is that I run a boon duration build (Monk, Water, Traveler+Food+Signet Mastery) to get 100% uptime on the Elite. I do this mostly for swiftness (kinda hate playing a Norn Warrior without any speed boost).

This ofcourse has the extra benefit of higher Might uptime/stack (Sigil of battle can now give up to 9-10 stacks permanently) and ofcourse other party wide buffs lasts longer.

Its tricky to evaluate a build like that, however as I said I run it mostly because it makes playing more fun but it would be nice to see how it stacks.

If you gave me the traits I could do that for you. The issue you will run into with that build, just from your description, is that you will hit the 25 stack Might cap in a 5 man party and all the effort you put into boon duration will go to waste.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

If you gave me the traits I could do that for you. The issue you will run into with that build, just from your description, is that you will hit the 25 stack Might cap in a 5 man party and all the effort you put into boon duration will go to waste.

This is usually how I run;

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-s;4VK-C-b4cK-60;9;4T;09T48A;41;058B5JF6;2UydbTqLQn-kK7835;3kVq0u1zY4_A5230C-2i;5F-03c00P;9;9;9;9;17u0;20-6x

A few things;

• The calculator isnt updated with the new Rune of the Traveler info (so its some more dmg and 15% boon duration instead of 10)
• I used to run Ruby orbs instead of Traveler since with 10 in Tactics I got 100% uptime anyway. Went to traveler for the coming change and thus those 10 points would most likely go to Arms (unless I go 30/25)
• Been playing with the idea of running a lot of either +9% or +10% slaying potions instead.
• Usually rotate the skills a bit dep. on group. FGJ to replace a signet etc (with 100% Fury uptime FGJ looses some value so I leave it out for solo)

edit: Quite true for Might consideration only hitting the roof is detrimental, however I mostly do PUG runs so it happens very rarely (current guild doesnt do much serious team runs) and ofcourse yous till get the other boon benefits

aeneq.1760:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

If you gave me the traits I could do that for you. The issue you will run into with that build, just from your description, is that you will hit the 25 stack Might cap in a 5 man party and all the effort you put into boon duration will go to waste.

This is usually how I run;

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-s;4VK-C-b4cK-60;9;4T;09T48A;41;058B5JF6;2UydbTqLQn-kK7835;3kVq0u1zY4_A5230C-2i;5F-03c00P;9;9;9;9;17u0;20-6x

A few things;

• The calculator isnt updated with the new Rune of the Traveler info (so its some more dmg and 15% boon duration instead of 10)
• I used to run Ruby orbs instead of Traveler since with 10 in Tactics I got 100% uptime anyway. Went to traveler for the coming change and thus those 10 points would most likely go to Arms (unless I go 30/25)
• Been playing with the idea of running a lot of either +9% or +10% slaying potions instead.
• Usually rotate the skills a bit dep. on group. FGJ to replace a signet etc (with 100% Fury uptime FGJ looses some value so I leave it out for solo)

edit: Quite true for Might consideration only hitting the roof is detrimental, however I mostly do PUG runs so it happens very rarely (current guild doesnt do much serious team runs) and ofcourse yous till get the other boon benefits

With Bloodlust: 11098
With perception: 10893

The extra Might you accrue is not worth the Power and Crit dmg you lose from Scholar Runes or Ruby Orbs, not to mention the Scholar Rune #6 buff. Your dps is about 11% lower when solo, and a whopping 24% lower when you are in an organized group that hits 25 Might stacks.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

aeneq.1760:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

If you gave me the traits I could do that for you. The issue you will run into with that build, just from your description, is that you will hit the 25 stack Might cap in a 5 man party and all the effort you put into boon duration will go to waste.

This is usually how I run;

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-s;4VK-C-b4cK-60;9;4T;09T48A;41;058B5JF6;2UydbTqLQn-kK7835;3kVq0u1zY4_A5230C-2i;5F-03c00P;9;9;9;9;17u0;20-6x

A few things;

• The calculator isnt updated with the new Rune of the Traveler info (so its some more dmg and 15% boon duration instead of 10)
• I used to run Ruby orbs instead of Traveler since with 10 in Tactics I got 100% uptime anyway. Went to traveler for the coming change and thus those 10 points would most likely go to Arms (unless I go 30/25)
• Been playing with the idea of running a lot of either +9% or +10% slaying potions instead.
• Usually rotate the skills a bit dep. on group. FGJ to replace a signet etc (with 100% Fury uptime FGJ looses some value so I leave it out for solo)

edit: Quite true for Might consideration only hitting the roof is detrimental, however I mostly do PUG runs so it happens very rarely (current guild doesnt do much serious team runs) and ofcourse yous till get the other boon benefits

With Bloodlust: 11098
With perception: 10893

The extra Might you accrue is not worth the Power and Crit dmg you lose from Scholar Runes or Ruby Orbs, not to mention the Scholar Rune #6 buff. Your dps is about 11% lower when solo, and a whopping 24% lower when you are in an organized group that hits 25 Might stacks.

Ok, good too know. Was a bit more than I expected, just a few followups so I can but the numbers in context…

• Are those numbers assuming Scholar #6 boost?
• Is the numbers max values or are they an average over a DPS cycle?
• Does the calculation consider boon downtime over a cycle as well?

edit: Oh btw, is the 11%/24% actual DPS or percentage of the maximum output? If its the maximum then ofc. dps impact is less

The numbers are effective power. Its the fastest way to compare dps between the same profession using the same weapons. The percentages are actual dps, and it is assuming the boost from Scholar #6 and it does consider the downtime of boons.

How would a 30/0/0/10/30 build fare when compared to a 30/10/0/0/30 build? I guess Empowered would be lower DPS than Rending Strikes, but as a Warrior who often uses 2 shouts (FGJ and OMM), would taking Lung Capacity be more worthwhile than Rending Strikes, swapping to Empowered when using 2 Banners or Signet?

Flissy.4093:

How would a 30/0/0/10/30 build fare when compared to a 30/10/0/0/30 build? I guess Empowered would be lower DPS than Rending Strikes, but as a Warrior who often uses 2 shouts (FGJ and OMM), would taking Lung Capacity be more worthwhile than Rending Strikes, swapping to Empowered when using 2 Banners or Signet?

Well you gain around 1.2% dmg with OMM+Lung Capacity, the increase in dmg from FGJ+Lung Capacity is also minor. At best youll get Lung Capacity dmg boost to match the dmg from Rending Strikes and in that scenario you dont take the 10% crit chance boost into consideration.

And ofcourse Empowered doesnt give you anything unless its an actual Boon you have on you. i.e. Banners/Signet does not come into play…

Empower Allies is like a 7% DPS boost to the rest of the party. Given that warriors themselves are actually a relatively low-DPS class, a 7% DPS boost to the rest of the party would be enough to offset even a 25% DPS loss. I did a quick crunch in my spreadsheet and 20/30/0/20/0 Axeway gives me 3081 DPS, versus the current 30/0/0/10/30 which gives 3535, so it’s about a 13% DPS loss.

Moreover, not using Berserker’s Power or Heightened Focus means you can use Eviscerate on cooldown. Using Furious as your grandmaster trait, a 20/30/0/20/0 Axe build should be able to Evis on cooldown to push overall DPS up to 3419, which practically makes up the difference.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Empower Allies is like a 7% DPS boost to the rest of the party. Given that warriors themselves are actually a relatively low-DPS class, a 7% DPS boost to the rest of the party would be enough to offset even a 25% DPS loss. I did a quick crunch in my spreadsheet and 20/30/0/20/0 Axeway gives me 3081 DPS, versus the current 30/0/0/10/30 which gives 3535, so it’s about a 13% DPS loss.

Moreover, not using Berserker’s Power or Heightened Focus means you can use Eviscerate on cooldown. Using Furious as your grandmaster trait, a 20/30/0/20/0 Axe build should be able to Evis on cooldown to push overall DPS up to 3419, which practically makes up the difference.

Hey could you link or upload the spreadsheet id be very much appreciated would save me a lot of time in dps testing thanx

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Given that warriors themselves are actually a relatively low-DPS class

What.

Red Falcon.8257:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Given that warriors themselves are actually a relatively low-DPS class

What.

In an organized group setting where you can expect all banners, 25 might stacks, 25 vuln, etc warriors are actually middling in terms of DPS. Warriors are the best solo dps class, however.

As far as Guang’s numbers go, I haven’t seen his spreadheet so I have no idea what his buff assumptions are. What 3.5k dps equals I’m not sure, since a warrior’s auto attack with full Might/Vuln is much more than that, and it happens more than once per second.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Red Falcon.8257:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Given that warriors themselves are actually a relatively low-DPS class

What.

In an organized group setting where you can expect all banners, 25 might stacks, 25 vuln, etc warriors are actually middling in terms of DPS. Warriors are the best solo dps class, however.

As far as Guang’s numbers go, I haven’t seen his spreadheet so I have no idea what his buff assumptions are. What 3.5k dps equals I’m not sure, since a warrior’s auto attack with full Might/Vuln is much more than that, and it happens more than once per second.

It actually doesn’t even matter since it’s a relative comparison, so I didn’t bother to list all the conditions, but if I recall correctly it was no boons, no buffs, Force/Accuracy with Ruby Orbs. The differences in Power/Precision/Critdmg just from traits isn’t significant enough in most cases to substantially alter the proportion of damage between unbuffed and buffed, unless the class relies heavily on a source of damage that doesn’t benefit linearly from said buffs, i.e. mesmer clones don’t get the effects of Fury unless traited.

Also, it doesn’t have to be all buffs like you just described. Warrior self-only buffs (might on swap and Forceful Greatsword) give an okay amount of might, but everything else the warrior can give (banners, FGJ, Empower Allies) affects everyone else as well.

JVJD.4912:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Empower Allies is like a 7% DPS boost to the rest of the party. Given that warriors themselves are actually a relatively low-DPS class, a 7% DPS boost to the rest of the party would be enough to offset even a 25% DPS loss. I did a quick crunch in my spreadsheet and 20/30/0/20/0 Axeway gives me 3081 DPS, versus the current 30/0/0/10/30 which gives 3535, so it’s about a 13% DPS loss.

Moreover, not using Berserker’s Power or Heightened Focus means you can use Eviscerate on cooldown. Using Furious as your grandmaster trait, a 20/30/0/20/0 Axe build should be able to Evis on cooldown to push overall DPS up to 3419, which practically makes up the difference.

Hey could you link or upload the spreadsheet id be very much appreciated would save me a lot of time in dps testing thanx

I tend to add in damage values and traits as they come up, so unless you know how the spreadsheet is actually set up and which cells need to be filled in, my spreadsheet isn’t going to be super helpful for you. I think Knox has a good spreadsheet that is actually complete, although I’m not sure if he ever made a warrior one. You can ask him about it.

Right, but the point is you throw out a number like 3535dps and since that bears no reality to actual in game damage. I understand it’s relative and internally consistent in your spreadsheet, but it just confuses people (including me) when you throw out numbers like that which have no relation to what actually happens in game play.

Empower Allies is fine in adept tier.
Anet need allow that skill to stack.

JETWING.2759:

Empower Allies is fine in adept tier.
Anet need allow that skill to stack.

Reduce it to 70 again then it can stack.

I’m not sure if I’m ready to lose Fast Hands so I will probably use 30/0/0/20/20 with Desperate Power.

Wethospu.6437:

I’m not sure if I’m ready to lose Fast Hands so I will probably use 30/0/0/20/20 with Desperate Power.

Yeah cant live without fast hands for sure, I assume 20 in Discipline is for Warrior’s Sprint?

More like putting 5 points to some other tree doesn’t really give anything. And well, the Master traits are pretty good. Just have to switch often to get most out of them.

Good luck with that build.

Luck? Why do I need any luck? I can dodge!

I just need someone to calculate how high upkeep I need.

hell no! most developers playing mesmer and warrior why the heck they gonna nerf or balancing their favorite class!

Wethospu.6437:

Luck? Why do I need any luck? I can dodge!

I just need someone to calculate how high upkeep I need.

Assuming 25 stacks of Might, Sig of fury and Banner of discipline, and empower allies it’s only 8% worse than 30/25/0/0/15 assuming you keep desperate power up 100% of the time. Productivity drops off from there.

Are you assuming that 30/25/0/0/15 has Empower Allies?

Nope. for 30/25 I assumed everything the same except EA.

that said, 30/25 will be about 3% worse than 30/10 after the patch. As far as crowbaring EA into a build, I think Guang’s build would be the best, but the personal dps is really low,, like 24% lower.

So question is, do you want to play awesome and exciting Desperate Power build or boring and even more boring pure Axe build?

Neither, I’m going to play 30/10/0/0/30 and tell not use EA =/

I like playing support.

In that case, full cleric shout heals are gonna be good now

30 in tactics, EA, shout heals, horn cooldown apothecary cuz cleric is so old it plays NES

edit: oh and so you can sit with rifle/longbow stacking dem condis yo

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

…Given that warriors themselves are actually a relatively low-DPS class…

If warriors are low dps class which ones do you consider high dps?
I would put warrior in a middle-high dps but never on a low position.