Guild Wars 2

Every pug warrior I see in dungeons uses Banner of Strength over Banner of Discipline, if he uses a banner at all. Discipline gives nearly double the damage bonus Strength does and can be picked up to give area Fury, but whenever I bring it up I just get SHUT UP I PLAY HOW I WANT. Then they usually start going on about how amazing their greatsword DPS is, even when I can tell they’re doing nothing, but that’s a different issue altogether.

Is there some kind of misconception going on? Do they want the condition damage for their epic bleed builds? What?

I use banner of strength only when there is another warrior using banner of disp or when there are condition damage build players in the group otherwise its BOD all the way

Banner of Strength is the best choice for those few bosses who are immune to crits.

It’s those shout-healing soldier warriors using the BOS since they have little to no critical damage or precision. I welcome it though since they are at least running with a banner and have the common sense to pick it up after a fight.

If I can only choose one Banner, I bring Discipline. The crit chance is too valuable. I’m usually the only Warrior in my guild’s group so I usually take both Banners, FGJ, and Battle Standard

Disc. isn’t double the bonus of Str because precision and crit dmg are both inferior stats to power. It is still better though.

The real question is why aren’t they running both? Even if only one gets picked up, it’s worth using 2 banners for any big fight.

Banner of strenght is pure dps regardless of type of damage.Everyone benefits from it whether party members use physical damage, condition damage or have low to none crit chance.
Banner of discipline only works for already high in power/crit%/ and precision builds.Condi specs gain almost zero dps from it aswell as tanky builds with low precision.

180 power and condition damage ads to every attack on every class, while crit % is wasted if you don’t crit.A +8% Criting chance on a condi builds is also worse than having more raw damage.

Disc banner, FGJ, On My mark, or Str banner if group wouldn’t benefit from Disc.

Yaki.9563:

Disc. isn’t double the bonus of Str because precision and crit dmg are both inferior stats to power. It is still better though.

Glad you did the math to refute him… oh wait you didn’t.

if your group doesn’t benefit from Banner of Discipline you should probably spare yourself the pain

when I run as the only warrior (guild runs and some PUGs) I try to take both banners. I am a banner kitten.

Just for fun…

170 Power = ~8% dps boost
170 Pre = ~5% dps boost
15% crit damage = ~10% dps boost

Looks like guang was right, Yaki. Apology incoming?

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Just for fun…

170 Power = ~8% dps boost
170 Pre = ~5% dps boost
15% crit damage = ~10% dps boost

Looks like guang was right, Yaki. Apology incoming?

170 power = ~8% dps boost
170 Pre = ~0% dps boost
15% crit damage = ~0% dps boost

with PVT or condi build.

Excalibur.9748:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Just for fun…

170 Power = ~8% dps boost
170 Pre = ~5% dps boost
15% crit damage = ~10% dps boost

Looks like guang was right, Yaki. Apology incoming?

170 power = ~8% dps boost
170 Pre = ~0% dps boost
15% crit damage = ~0% dps boost

with PVT or condi build.

Your math is incorrect. Adding 8% chance to crit on a PVT build will still increase the dps by the factor I indicated. It will still be an increase on a condi build as their pitiful direct damage would be increased by the same factor.

And who cares about condi builds and PVT? This is a thread about pve min maxing, not a voyage to scrub city.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Excalibur.9748:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Just for fun…

170 Power = ~8% dps boost
170 Pre = ~5% dps boost
15% crit damage = ~10% dps boost

Looks like guang was right, Yaki. Apology incoming?

170 power = ~8% dps boost
170 Pre = ~0% dps boost
15% crit damage = ~0% dps boost

with PVT or condi build.

Your math is incorrect. Adding 8% chance to crit on a PVT build will still increase the dps by the factor I indicated. It will still be an increase on a condi build as their pitiful direct damage would be increased by the same factor.

And who cares about condi builds and PVT? This is a thread about pve min maxing, not a voyage to scrub city.

Not it won’t.

170 Prec with 0% critical damage is effectively 0% DPS.
15% crit damage with 0% chance to crit is effectively 0% DPS.

And that holds true for both PVT and condi. Now I’m not saying that PVT or Condi is the way to go for dungeons, but that may explain why some people choose to bring banner of strength instead.

Yes, I don’t understand that either. My Banner of Tactic gives valuable buffs and boost to my team so we won’t get one-shot by the enemies.

Excalibur.9748:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Excalibur.9748:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Just for fun…

170 Power = ~8% dps boost
170 Pre = ~5% dps boost
15% crit damage = ~10% dps boost

Looks like guang was right, Yaki. Apology incoming?

170 power = ~8% dps boost
170 Pre = ~0% dps boost
15% crit damage = ~0% dps boost

with PVT or condi build.

Your math is incorrect. Adding 8% chance to crit on a PVT build will still increase the dps by the factor I indicated. It will still be an increase on a condi build as their pitiful direct damage would be increased by the same factor.

And who cares about condi builds and PVT? This is a thread about pve min maxing, not a voyage to scrub city.

Not it won’t.

170 Prec with 0% critical damage is effectively 0% DPS.
15% crit damage with 0% chance to crit is effectively 0% DPS.

You don’t understand. Critical hits have a base 50% damage bonus with 0 points invested in critical damage. A build with 0% chance to crit and 50% critical damage will see the increased dps I indicated if their stats are changed to 8% and 65%.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Excalibur.9748:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Excalibur.9748:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Just for fun…

170 Power = ~8% dps boost
170 Pre = ~5% dps boost
15% crit damage = ~10% dps boost

Looks like guang was right, Yaki. Apology incoming?

170 power = ~8% dps boost
170 Pre = ~0% dps boost
15% crit damage = ~0% dps boost

with PVT or condi build.

Your math is incorrect. Adding 8% chance to crit on a PVT build will still increase the dps by the factor I indicated. It will still be an increase on a condi build as their pitiful direct damage would be increased by the same factor.

And who cares about condi builds and PVT? This is a thread about pve min maxing, not a voyage to scrub city.

Not it won’t.

170 Prec with 0% critical damage is effectively 0% DPS.
15% crit damage with 0% chance to crit is effectively 0% DPS.

You don’t understand. Critical hits have a base 50% damage bonus with 0 points invested in critical damage. A build with 0% chance to crit and 50% critical damage will see the increased dps I indicated if their stats are changed to 8% and 65%.

Did some calculations using those stats.

Let’s say you deal 100 base damage with PVT.

So 1(100) + 0(150) = 100 base damage.

Now let’s add 8% crit chance and 15% crit damage.

0.92(100) + 0.08(165) = 105.2

That is 5.2% DPS gained, which is less than what you’d gain from banner of strength. Now add in the fact that it’d be 0% DPS gained vs certain bosses and all siege equipment, then banner of strength is a no-brainer for PVT and condi builds.

Except that you guys are forgetting that everyone gets a baseline 4% crit chance, AND are negating fury uptime, which as a warrior, if you’re bringing support in the form of For Great Justice (and why WOULDN’T you?) or carrying Signet of Rage is pretty darn high. So NOW you’re rocking a 32% crit chance (4+8+20) with relative consistency, compared to a not using discipline getting a 24% crit chance and 15% less critical damage. Even then, I’d imagine that factoring in the baseline 4% crit to the 8% mentioned above would provide a decent enough boost to make Discipline the better choice for party support (especially with the bonus fury uptime).

I’ll admit, against certain bosses (Tequatl, anyone?) and scenarios that Banner of Strength would be a better choice, but overall Discipline brings more utility, better burst, and helps proc things like Sigil and Rune effects more consistently.

Excalibur.9748:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Excalibur.9748:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Excalibur.9748:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Just for fun…

170 Power = ~8% dps boost
170 Pre = ~5% dps boost
15% crit damage = ~10% dps boost

Looks like guang was right, Yaki. Apology incoming?

170 power = ~8% dps boost
170 Pre = ~0% dps boost
15% crit damage = ~0% dps boost

with PVT or condi build.

Your math is incorrect. Adding 8% chance to crit on a PVT build will still increase the dps by the factor I indicated. It will still be an increase on a condi build as their pitiful direct damage would be increased by the same factor.

And who cares about condi builds and PVT? This is a thread about pve min maxing, not a voyage to scrub city.

Not it won’t.

170 Prec with 0% critical damage is effectively 0% DPS.
15% crit damage with 0% chance to crit is effectively 0% DPS.

You don’t understand. Critical hits have a base 50% damage bonus with 0 points invested in critical damage. A build with 0% chance to crit and 50% critical damage will see the increased dps I indicated if their stats are changed to 8% and 65%.

Did some calculations using those stats.

Let’s say you deal 100 base damage with PVT.

So 1(100) + 0(150) = 100 base damage.

Now let’s add 8% crit chance and 15% crit damage.

0.92(100) + 0.08(165) = 105.2

That is 5.2% DPS gained, which is less than what you’d gain from banner of strength. Now add in the fact that it’d be 0% DPS gained vs certain bosses and all siege equipment, then banner of strength is a no-brainer for PVT and condi builds.

Well to most of them there is no other build other than zerker. Then they QQ in map chat, and post on the forums that people won’t res them. WP back and stop complaining. On things like teq zerker builds are a waste of space. Same with the only other challenging content (pvp).

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Just for fun…

170 Power = ~8% dps boost
170 Pre = ~5% dps boost
15% crit damage = ~10% dps boost

Looks like guang was right, Yaki. Apology incoming?

Baseline stats that seem reasonable, for someone going full berserker:

2650 power
39% crit
110% crit damage bonus

Lets assume fury and 10 stacks might and 15% crit from trait.

3000 power
74% crit
110% crit damage bonus

Increase from 170 power = 5.7%
Increase from 170 precision & 15% crit dmg bonus = 11.9%

and sometimes a banner is just a banner 8D

http://youtu.be/rqyrd-yZeZ8?t=6s

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

whenever I bring it up I just get SHUT UP I PLAY HOW I WANT. Then they usually start going on about how amazing their greatsword DPS is, even when I can tell they’re doing nothing, but that’s a different issue altogether.

This is PUG Warriors in a nutshell. Don’t forget their COF armor dyed Abyss and some form of red waiting for the 100B cooldown by auto attacking, spamming Arcing Strike on cooldown, and using their ruby orbs instead of Scholars.

170 precision is not 5% damage boost aswell as 15% crit damage is only 7.5 % but ONLY at 100% crit chance remember.Making that infact your bonus is sctually lower.

Also prec plus crit % is better increse by low margin over strenght ONLY to full zerk classes.Remember not all pugs go full zerk and not all dungeons are as easy as cof hence a lot of pug personal choice of gear.
Strenght> precision all day unless all the group is full zerk.Very unlikely to get a full optimized for dps pug party.

I don’t run with bads and I don’t use bad builds so I can’t relate to any person or group whose build or team is so bad that banner of strength be even close to better.

Situations for Banner of Strenght:

-if there is already a War with Discipline
-if the boss is crits immune

end.

in general it’s because power trumpets precision in the dps role.

for a lvl 80 warrior you will get 3 stats boosted by your weapons depend on the kind of weapon it is. the thing is that you get 1 highly boosted and 2 equally split usually.

keep that in mind while you keep precsion mechanics of increasing a critical chance with the mechanic of power to directly increase dps. now keep in mind that with a crit you gain 50% damage plus boosts.

the problem is with precision which is poor for a form of dps yes you will get that boost more often but it will be much lower

furthermore there is a point to where precion does not really matter you can not have 101% crit chance nor is a 10% crit chance going to really matter especially when you think of it in the light of does a 10% crit chance matter if my dps is lower by 10%. banner of disclpine would be rather handy for the 15% damage buff if your criticing the majority of your time (essientally becomes a 15% damage buff)

but what happen dear i ask if someone is not got a high precision for instance a pvt warrior their crit chance will be much lower and banner of discipline runs the risk of holding a party back if the builds don’t have high precision or if you have low lvls.

i personally prefer banner of strength because the value is real and certain that is even if there is a player with rather low precsion he will benefit from the extra damage boost of power (and condtion damage) while with discipline they just will not benefit as much as power raises overall dps better then pre. and with out a high pre ofc the 15% buff is less impressive especially since the chance of crit will be similar.

with that said it’s obviously best to pair up the banners.

with that saidi ‘m not 100% sure how much bonus crit chance is i think around 8% (gained by said banner) (just logged in and tested it i was on the money)
someone mentioned that you can gain fury by banner of discipline that’s good but once again if they have a reliable fury we again have a no point skill and as warrior all have access to battle standard as a option (or the chance for) your entire group can have fury far easier.

someone commented on banner of disc giving fury which from your scenario involving other warriors signet of rage is down right superior to banner of disc for fury hardly a comparison or if your worried about your then theres battle standard which is superior to banner of disclpline in every category minus the fact it won’t make you crit higher although it does give you 4 stacks of might and fury for ages over a far longer range then disc which quite frankly means battle standard is superior to banner of disc in virtually every way.

simply put power is better for 90% of groups

Flissy.4093:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

whenever I bring it up I just get SHUT UP I PLAY HOW I WANT. Then they usually start going on about how amazing their greatsword DPS is, even when I can tell they’re doing nothing, but that’s a different issue altogether.

This is PUG Warriors in a nutshell. Don’t forget their COF armor dyed Abyss and some form of red waiting for the 100B cooldown by auto attacking, spamming Arcing Strike on cooldown, and using their ruby orbs instead of Scholars.

scholars is lower compared to ruby orbs every single bonus of scholars COMBINED is inferior the the same ruby orb. except if you factor in 10% from being over 90% health which as a zerk warrior will not be long. 1 hit likely maybe 2

Disc > Strength = Tactics (situational) > Defence.

Unless you’re playing with bads (read: kittenty PVT/Condition scrubs), Discipline should always be your primary choice.

Only time strength is better is if your group is purely condition based, which would be absolutely kittened unless you’re all speccing into different conditions and even then…

wildfang.9670:

scholars is lower compared to ruby orbs every single bonus of scholars COMBINED is inferior the the same ruby orb. except if you factor in 10% from being over 90% health which as a zerk warrior will not be long. 1 hit likely maybe 2

Not really. It’s actually pretty easy to stay above 90%. I have 20k HP and am almost always above 18k. If I struggle, I’ll use lifesteal food

mexay.3902:

wildfang.9670:

scholars is lower compared to ruby orbs every single bonus of scholars COMBINED is inferior the the same ruby orb. except if you factor in 10% from being over 90% health which as a zerk warrior will not be long. 1 hit likely maybe 2

Not really. It’s actually pretty easy to stay above 90%. I have 20k HP and am almost always above 18k. If I struggle, I’ll use lifesteal food

even then using lifesteal food has a cd and is only a chance of 66% of crit with a very low return of 325 from a lvl 80 opponent or the only one ik of anyway. that’s not going to keep you over 90% alone. (you’ll be hit 2x likely before that effect takes effect)

i’m guessing sig of healing?
i will probably try it once i finsh my current gw2 project.

wildfang.9670:

even then using lifesteal food has a cd and is only a chance of 66% of crit with a very low return of 325 from a lvl 80 opponent or the only one ik of anyway. that’s not going to keep you over 90% alone. (you’ll be hit 2x likely before that effect takes effect)

i’m guessing sig of healing?
i will probably try it once i finsh my current gw2 project.

It makes a noticeable difference.

No, I run Healing Surge. I just play smart. Stand behind bosses, dodge at the right time, makes sure your party has some condition cleanse, etc.

i use str because party members are not zerkers.

Lighter.5631:

i use str because party members are not zerkers.

^^ this.He basicly said in one sentence what me and others were trying to explain with walls of text.Gg

This is a debate about which is better when in fact there is absolutely no reason to ever not have both.

P.S. Scholar runes, not Ruby Orbs: http://youtu.be/nb0ZAYCsZHw

The difference between PTV and PTV+fury+BoD is what? Something around 18%? lol…

Edit: wow… wildfang… wall o engrish

Me: “banner of discipline”
PuG Warrior: “banner of strength”
Second PuG Warrior: “banner of tactics”
HRHRHFGKDGVBDFINBD

I dunno, I find a warrior dropping banner of defence more rage-inducing.

colesy.8490:

I dunno, I find a warrior dropping banner of defence more rage-inducing.

Had to restrain myself here.

“Oh no, free buffs! THE kitten HOW DARE HE!”

But it’s not free, they’re using a utility slot. Why give up 170+ precision and 10%+ crit damage for … is it 170 toughness + 170 vit? Those two stats do nothing. Should I be grateful if there was a banner that gave condition damage and magic find and somebody used that because it’s “free buffs”?

Useless?D
Yes sure, helping your brittle as a twig team stay alive is useless. Of course. Because we all know that the only useful stat in this game is crit damage.

What did I expect from this forum…

Also, 3 utility slots = potentially 3 banners. Mind blowing, I know.

Find me any zerker team on youtube using banner of defense. It’s not needed.

Even if you could take banner of defense without sacrificing anything in a zerker group, those stats arent going to make a difference in keeping people alive. Thats why we have dodges.

If banner of Defense gave 33% faster endurance regeneration it would actually be highly beneficial in pve.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

If banner of Defense gave 33% faster endurance regeneration it would actually be highly beneficial in pve.

and in PvP

Yeah probably too good in pvp.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Yeah probably too good in pvp.

S/D thieves will thank you for those extra dodges :P

Excalibur.9748:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Yeah probably too good in pvp.

S/D thieves will thank you for those extra dodges :P

… you can’t boon steal banners

mexay.3902:

wildfang.9670:

even then using lifesteal food has a cd and is only a chance of 66% of crit with a very low return of 325 from a lvl 80 opponent or the only one ik of anyway. that’s not going to keep you over 90% alone. (you’ll be hit 2x likely before that effect takes effect)

i’m guessing sig of healing?
i will probably try it once i finsh my current gw2 project.

It makes a noticeable difference.

No, I run Healing Surge. I just play smart. Stand behind bosses, dodge at the right time, makes sure your party has some condition cleanse, etc.

I got a combo I want to try would give me about 10% more damage then scholars. if it works well enough it is a tad risky.

30 30 0 10 0
with orbs that would be 10% more dps then scholars as long as i’m less then 50% health.

Hey it’s not just crit damage, precision and power play fairly important roles too :P

This thread is hard to read, and not because I do not like math.

Just somehow seeing a long never-ending debate about whether you should give a PUG, a 8% DPS boost versus a 15% DPS boost, is just mind boggling silly.

First we are talking about PUGS! Do you REALLY think a DPS boost of, let’s be gracious now, of 15%, would really be the absolute make or break of whether you completed CoF! If you have a competent group, I bet you could do it without banners.

If the PUG is really that bad, that you absolutely need these banners than I do not think a banner is going to carry the PUG!

Lastly if you are truly this obsessed about nit-picking the fine points, of the exact percentages of increased damage from these banners I have to say, maybe like others have said, just grab both banners!

It is really hard watching the community I am part of this game with, argue to such a degree this essentially trivial point…

SIGH, end of rant. Thank you to the ones that did not bicker over the tiniest points in this thread.

EDIT: I can see, I guess, If you were doing this just for fun, and not trying to prove a point, than OK, but if not, it looks really silly.