Guild Wars 2

I’m a bit tired of thieves using the “learn to play” argument when you complain about their undetectable 8k damage back stabs. They tell us “well, you should block it or dodge roll when you expect to get hit!” only to actually block it but get hit anyways because they can just spam number 1 on your shield until it goes down.

Blocking an attack from an invisible thief, mesmer, or any other class needs to reveal the attacker. I’m not sure why this isn’t like this to begin with.

/end rant

I feel you and think it should be implemented.

Same. I can maybe see the no reveal on evade no giving away their stealth, but a block’s a block. It’s a physical landing of a move and should auto reveal the person in stealth. Kinda dumb that it doesn’t already.

Imo, a player using a skill should appear from stealth, did it hit or not.

It’s kinda stupid that the game helps them to land the hits from stealth as well as thieves being able to spam shortbow jump to somewhere while stealthed all the way. And I don’t think this would nerf stealth too much, it would still be a powerful tool.

I totally agree with the OP, even more with Paavotar.
But this discussion belongs to the sPvP forum :P

It doesnt reveal because that would mean that theif need to watch what you do or pay attention to your boons (shield stance is shown under the health bar…) and they cant do that beacues that would mean they need l2p.

On the other hand is just silly that block doesnt reveal and we have blind that can make your shout “Fear Me” miss. Its makes you blind not mute or him deaf.

Maybe that black smoke infront of your eyes actually absorbs sound. It… must be the BLACK MATTER. My god, space time whole, kitten we all gonna dieeeeee…

Opynn.2936:

It doesnt reveal because that would mean that theif need to watch what you do or pay attention to your boons (shield stance is shown under the health bar…) and they cant do that beacues that would mean they need l2p.

They can’t l2p. They are too busy telling us to l2p.XD

because this game still need to balance every class and give them different builds and i can say after 2 years maybe i really like the game but still even i’m a fan of guild wars 1 i’m not gonna lie to myself that this game is better than guild wars 1 i think in some part yes but i still miss the other parts of the original game i dunno why arenanet remove the good parts of gw1 i was amaze when i bought my 1st account but after making a warrior and guardian i lost interest to do pve even pvp i only play to do my dailies then i got banned i’m not posting this because of grudge just my opinion i like the game that’s why i bought a 2nd account but it doesn’t interest me after playing 1 to 2 toons i thought because they remove the instances i could play with other players but most of the time i play alone and when i meet other players and i try to ask them to group they ignore me it’s so boring i enjoy playing AC3 than playing gw2 pve alone they should implement a new system even in open world that encourage people to make a group and help each other. or maybe they should add more dynamic events on every map and decrease the timer i like the dynamic events idea and that’s the one reason i enjoy the game but only dynamic events in every map and the timer is sometimes very long and the hearts are boring if you are playing solo

The same reason we can use a burst ability and NOT lose the adrenaline if it doesn’t connect? Which is the same reason Cleansing Ire doesn’t work as efficiently on the melee weapons. No hit = no bars spent.

They are hand-holding handicap mechanics that have no place in PVP for a game trying to go e-sport.

Velron.3729:

The same reason we can use a burst ability and NOT lose the adrenaline if it doesn’t connect? Which is the same reason Cleansing Ire doesn’t work as efficiently on the melee weapons. No hit = no bars spent.

They are hand-holding handicap mechanics that have no place in PVP for a game trying to go e-sport.

Whe everything will be as easy to avoid as a burst skill, I’ll agree.

Because you know, warriors right now are hand-holding opponents compare to ther classes: I always thought warrior was the easiest class to read (expecially when I played an engineer).

Well, we can’t let this thread die or be forgotten or this will never be changed.

Right now the only way to deal with a backstab is to accept it. Accept the fact that you’ll be hit with very high damage from an invisible target that can do it every 4 seconds or so.

If I’m not mistaken, using sword reposte, or mace counter-blow will yield the same result. The thief will hit you, it will block, not reveal him but your counterblow/reposte will go off, and he will be able to hit you again with a backstab and it will land.

I have a lvl 80 thief and fighting warriors is a complete joke. I feel so bad fighting them since my warrior is my main.

The game its balanced around thieves.

Paavotar.3971:

Imo, a player using a skill should appear from stealth, did it hit or not.

This. It’s kinda stupid that a terribad player can just flail his kitten around till he hits.

Seeing how I might be one of the only thieves to view into the Warrior profession….
Let me try to put this in perspective for your class: would you want to lose all your adrenaline when your F1 ability is blocked? That, I think, would be a terrible mechanic. Same thing for thief, if something as simple as blocking gives us a revealed debuff would just about completely mitigate our stealth.

Shield stance lasts 3 seconds, throwing it up should out last the stealth anyways, so thus no backstab unless they chain stealths. Also if your threw it up too early and you see the ‘Block’ while the thief is invisible turn around: he is most likely right there, and start swinging. If he is spamming 1 you will take half damage, and already dished out some to him.

Binary Rain.4869:

Seeing how I might be one of the only thieves to view into the Warrior profession….

/wave
I’m a thief too.

Binary Rain.4869:

Let me try to put this in perspective for your class: would you want to lose all your adrenaline when your F1 ability is blocked?

It should. AND if we miss. Would work much better with cleansing ire AND open more doors for balancing around good, non-sloppy play.

That said you can reapply stealth in 3 seconds. Warriors need quite a bit longer to charge up adrenaline.

Binary Rain.4869:

Shield stance lasts 3 seconds, throwing it up should out last the stealth anyways, so thus no backstab unless they chain stealths.

You are pretty bad at stealthing if you only get 3 seconds out of it…

ProxyDamage.9826:

Binary Rain.4869:

Shield stance lasts 3 seconds, throwing it up should out last the stealth anyways, so thus no backstab unless they chain stealths.

You are pretty bad at stealthing if you only get 3 seconds out of it…

All stealth skills that a thief has access to have a base of 3 seconds with the exception of smoke bomb, shadow trap and shadow refuge. Only way to extend it is by chaining it, or investing 15 into the shadow arts line.

Binary Rain.4869:

Seeing how I might be one of the only thieves to view into the Warrior profession….
Let me try to put this in perspective for your class: would you want to lose all your adrenaline when your F1 ability is blocked? That, I think, would be a terrible mechanic. Same thing for thief, if something as simple as blocking gives us a revealed debuff would just about completely mitigate our stealth.

Shield stance lasts 3 seconds, throwing it up should out last the stealth anyways, so thus no backstab unless they chain stealths. Also if your threw it up too early and you see the ‘Block’ while the thief is invisible turn around: he is most likely right there, and start swinging. If he is spamming 1 you will take half damage, and already dished out some to him.

So… we are STILL penalized if we miss our burst. You aren’t penalized AT ALL.

redslion.9675:

Binary Rain.4869:

Seeing how I might be one of the only thieves to view into the Warrior profession….
Let me try to put this in perspective for your class: would you want to lose all your adrenaline when your F1 ability is blocked? That, I think, would be a terrible mechanic. Same thing for thief, if something as simple as blocking gives us a revealed debuff would just about completely mitigate our stealth.

Shield stance lasts 3 seconds, throwing it up should out last the stealth anyways, so thus no backstab unless they chain stealths. Also if your threw it up too early and you see the ‘Block’ while the thief is invisible turn around: he is most likely right there, and start swinging. If he is spamming 1 you will take half damage, and already dished out some to him.

So… we are STILL penalized if we miss our burst. You aren’t penalized AT ALL.

One of the perks of being a Thief is that we have no recharge time on our weapon skills…And neutralizing a stealth backstab is not penalizing a thief? Sure we do regain that initiative in that time to try and stealth again, but it still required that trait, utility or initiative to get into that stealth.

Binary Rain.4869:

All stealth skills that a thief has access to have a base of 3 seconds with the exception of smoke bomb, shadow trap and shadow refuge. Only way to extend it is by chaining it, or investing 15 into the shadow arts line.

You’re running a stealth build without 15 in shadow arts? See above. And you can chain stealth. Why wouldn’t you?

All of my points remain valid.

Im not sure if you are aware, but when warrior misses his burst ability, whether it was blocked, missed by blind or just missing completely, it always goes to full cooldown. Even if we cancel it, it goes to full cooldown.

So, I don’t think you can compare them to each other really very well, especially when warrior can easily regain full adrenaline in that 7-10 second cooldown anyways.

Paavotar.3971:

Im not sure if you are aware, but when warrior misses his burst ability, whether it was blocked, missed by blind or just missing completely, it always goes to full cooldown. Even if we cancel it, it goes to full cooldown.

So, I don’t think you can compare them to each other really very well, especially when warrior can easily regain full adrenaline in that 7-10 second cooldown anyways.

You also have a secondary weapon set to try and perform a different burst ability. Also, the longbow one does not require for it to be placed down, but for some reason that I can not understand can get blocked…that seems to happen to me very often when I am on my warrior.

Maybe trying to make the two analogous was not the best, but they still remain similar.

Lets say whenever a thief was blocked they would have the revealed debuff if they were in stealth. This would most likely happen when we try to hit with blinds, is dodged, complete misses or hits an invulnerable enemy. This seems a bit penalizing to give us 3 seconds (4 seconds in sPvP) revealed debuff, especially considering our main defense is either dodging or stealthing.

The longbow thing is if the projectile itself hits a player with a block ability, it for some odd reason, gets absorbed. This happens with cannons as well, sometimes guardian aegis can absorb the shot.

But the major flaw with the invisibility is that thieves don’t get any penalization for hitting players while blinded/blocked. You could basically remove a blind from yourself, remove aegis from enemy and after that hit a backstab on him, on one stealth and that, is kinda overkill if you ask me.

Thieves are not penalized AT ALL right now.

Warriors are already penalized, even if someone says they should be penalized more.

You are right: that might be too harsh. You might risk to DIE. Ooooh, that is not supposed to happen.XD

I think the main problem here is where is the balance between fair and overkill. At the moment it may not be fair for them not to be penalized, but it would be overkill to give them the revealed buff that often.

Binary Rain.4869:

I think the main problem here is where is the balance between fair and overkill. At the moment it may not be fair for them not to be penalized, but it would be overkill to give them the revealed buff that often.

Then don’t attack a player when they are blocking.

There is no arguing against the implementation of reveal on block other than “I’m a thief and I like spamming back stab and don’t want to think. I just want to spam.”

I have to agree with Evil here. Block is a physical hit after all so it should reveal the thief. I would actually go so far that every skill use would reveal it, then thief would be that carefully planned killer that has to wait for the right moment to hit.

But, if nothing else, stealth should be removed on a block, for it being physical hit.

Binary Rain.4869:

I think the main problem here is where is the balance between fair and overkill. At the moment it may not be fair for them not to be penalized, but it would be overkill to give them the revealed buff that often.

…How? If you trait for stealth spam you have basically infinite stealth. It just means you need to think before you flail wildly.

Now if they nerfed stealth spamming then maybe I’d agree with you. But they didn’t. So I don’t.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Binary Rain.4869:

Seeing how I might be one of the only thieves to view into the Warrior profession….

/wave
I’m a thief too.

Binary Rain.4869:

Let me try to put this in perspective for your class: would you want to lose all your adrenaline when your F1 ability is blocked?

It should. AND if we miss. Would work much better with cleansing ire AND open more doors for balancing around good, non-sloppy play.

That said you can reapply stealth in 3 seconds. Warriors need quite a bit longer to charge up adrenaline.

Binary Rain.4869:

Shield stance lasts 3 seconds, throwing it up should out last the stealth anyways, so thus no backstab unless they chain stealths.

You are pretty bad at stealthing if you only get 3 seconds out of it…

Ah someone else gets it. We SHOULD lose adrenaline the moment we try to use the burst skill. Cleansing Ire should cleanse right away and we should lose adrenaline regardless of if we connect.

BTW – I started a topic on both the Thief and Warrior issue in the SPVP forum.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Two-issues-I-think-holding-back-E-sport/first#post2372623

This topic should be in every forum.

Totally agree with the main topic.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Binary Rain.4869:

Seeing how I might be one of the only thieves to view into the Warrior profession….

/wave
I’m a thief too.

Binary Rain.4869:

Let me try to put this in perspective for your class: would you want to lose all your adrenaline when your F1 ability is blocked?

It should. AND if we miss. Would work much better with cleansing ire AND open more doors for balancing around good, non-sloppy play.

That said you can reapply stealth in 3 seconds. Warriors need quite a bit longer to charge up adrenaline.

Binary Rain.4869:

Shield stance lasts 3 seconds, throwing it up should out last the stealth anyways, so thus no backstab unless they chain stealths.

You are pretty bad at stealthing if you only get 3 seconds out of it…

It’s the default stealth duration, you know? Or you think that SR and chaining stealth skills is the way? It isn’t.

Still, I’d agree that both stealth skills and burst skills need to be punishing IF the game didn’t contain so much AoE condi spam, blinds and random CCs. It’s way too easy to miss and skill doesn’t have much to do it, when there are 2-3 Guards spamming Aegis on the whole zerg.

Why doent we lose all adrenaline when we fail our burst?
Because it is too easy to fail
Lets take hammer F1 as an example- its a blast at targeted location that stun up to 5 ppl.
What can counter it?
-blind (I just smashed the earth with gigantic hammer and you tell me that i made this small crater and i missed?)
-knockback in mid air
- chill
-cripple
- immobilize (sometimes in mid air…)
- when the enemy is just slighlty at lower or higher level (yes as warrior you need to be aware of terrian you fight in, other profession have teleports etc.)
- every kind of wall that knock you back or fear you
- ageis
- your enemy just blink/teleport/shadowstep away
- stability
-dodge

Velron.3729:

No hit = no bars spent.

It IS a hit.

The problems with thieves getting revealed on block are nothing to do with warriors. They relate to other classes with easier access to blocks. The warrior forum is not the best place to talk about it. In fact there is a post on thief forum from the same original poster. That’s the place to talk about it!

That is what bothered you about thieves?

The whole class from head to toe is a fail in stealth class design of epic proportions. most broken stealth mechanics ever. People will look back at this horrible design and just laugh at the idiotic 12yo who came up with the ideas.

The person who came up with these mechanic should not be hired for any future class design in any game if they even dream of any balance.

What kind of game allows you to use abilities or get hit during stealth and not get revealed? Oh right..Thief Wars 2.

The players who play the thief class actually think it is fair. What can you expect from people relying on handicaps to win and from the special needs dev that supports them. Must be related to the WvW one.

XII.9401:

What kind of game allows you to use abilities or get hit during stealth and not get revealed?

DotA

It honestly isn’t a problem if you time your block correctly (don’t block right after they stealth, wait a second or 2.

Do I agree that it should unstealth them? I actually do, and thief is one of my mains. But this won’t happen anytime soon, as it will require them to revamp their entire combat detection system.

Did you know that blocking an attack doesn’t put you in combat? Did you know that taking a condition doesn’t put you in combat if it isn’t accompanied by direct damage? Revealed runs off the system of direct damage contact, and if you don’t make direct damage contact, you don’t get revealed.

WhiteAndMilky.2514:

Did you know that blocking an attack doesn’t put you in combat? Did you know that taking a condition doesn’t put you in combat if it isn’t accompanied by direct damage? Revealed runs off the system of direct damage contact, and if you don’t make direct damage contact, you don’t get revealed.

When you are blocked by a guardian who’s traited for it, you are set on fire. When you as a thief get blocked by anything, you should get revealed. Stealth traps apply the revealed condition so it shouldn’t be hard to program blocking to do the same.

I don’t think it’s tricky for the devs to program this.

EvilSardine.9635:

When you are blocked by a guardian who’s traited for it, you are set on fire. When you as a thief get blocked by anything, you should get revealed. Stealth traps apply the revealed condition so it shouldn’t be hard to program blocking to do the same.

I don’t think it’s tricky for the devs to program this.

It is not about how easy or hard it is to program something…it is a matter of balance. Is it truly fair to eliminate the main mechanic of a thief due that? Not just blocks, but it would most likely happen on blind and invulnerability too, not just blocking. If this is considered, I am sure they would have to balance by improving some of the effects or something to counter balance since it would then become even more crucial and harder to land the stealthed strike properly.

Binary Rain.4869:

EvilSardine.9635:

When you are blocked by a guardian who’s traited for it, you are set on fire. When you as a thief get blocked by anything, you should get revealed. Stealth traps apply the revealed condition so it shouldn’t be hard to program blocking to do the same.

I don’t think it’s tricky for the devs to program this.

It is not about how easy or hard it is to program something…it is a matter of balance. Is it truly fair to eliminate the main mechanic of a thief due that? Not just blocks, but it would most likely happen on blind and invulnerability too, not just blocking. If this is considered, I am sure they would have to balance by improving some of the effects or something to counter balance since it would then become even more crucial and harder to land the stealthed strike properly.

It would just reward skilled play, the players who pay attention would see little affect in their abilities. At the moment it is all too easy to play thief and get away with sloppy skill use. Speaking from experience.

EDIT: I use the word “play” too often. PLAYS REMOVED.

WhiteAndMilky.2514:

It would just reward skilled play, the players who pay attention would see little affect in their abilities. At the moment it is all too easy to play thief and get away with sloppy skill use. Speaking from experience.

EDIT: I use the word “play” too often. PLAYS REMOVED.

In the case of some blocks, like gaurdian, if they throw up an aegis we can only do one of two things then to get it down: attack through and get revealed, or wait and get revealed without the debuff. The shield stance already outlasts the stealth duration, why do you need it better? And what about blinds then, we would be faced with the same dilemma since revealed debuff would most likely happen on a miss too. This by no means promotes good game play, all an opponent would have to do is toss something out, like a block, and it would neutralize the thief. Not to mention that almost all stealth attacks require good positioning, so just about a second to react before getting hit with the high amount of damage.

stof.9341:

XII.9401:

What kind of game allows you to use abilities or get hit during stealth and not get revealed?

DotA

Uh huh..it is EXACTLY like gw2/wow/warhammer/daoc/AOC..

Well, it’s a mixed bag. Most invisibility forms break on attacking, using an item or using an ability. But not all.

Smoke of Deceit doesn’t break on using abilities or items.
Shadow Dance doesn’t ever break so you can actually attack someone while remaining invisible.
Getting hit or damaged doesn’t break invisibility.
Damaging auras that are already turned on will damage people around you without making you visible.

So as I said, DotA allows you to use abilities, get hit and even attack without getting revealed.

Binary Rain.4869:

In the case of some blocks, like gaurdian, if they throw up an aegis we can only do one of two things then to get it down: attack through and get revealed, or wait and get revealed without the debuff. The shield stance already outlasts the stealth duration, why do you need it better? And what about blinds then, we would be faced with the same dilemma since revealed debuff would most likely happen on a miss too. This by no means promotes good game play, all an opponent would have to do is toss something out, like a block, and it would neutralize the thief. Not to mention that almost all stealth attacks require good positioning, so just about a second to react before getting hit with the high amount of damage.

That actually sounds pretty good…If a thief attacks while blinded, it should reveal them when the attack misses. Currently, there is no counter to stealth (other than attacking wildly and hoping you hit something). This would actually promote good gameplay, instead of the thief just spamming 1 until they burn through any blind/block and land that stealth attack.

If blinds/blocks caused the thief to spend an attack to get through it, or to extend their stealth to outlast it…that would actually give us options for counterplay against stealth. AOE blinds would become a great counter, and well-timed blocks could catch the thief off guard.

Great ideas, thanks for suggesting them.

Binary Rain.4869:

In the case of some blocks, like gaurdian, if they throw up an aegis we can only do one of two things then to get it down: attack through and get revealed, or wait and get revealed without the debuff.

Huh? Backstabbing an opponent with Aegis doesn’t reveal you. It removes the Aegis and keeps you stealthed and you can try again. How does this promote skillful gameplay on the thief’s part? It’s basically back stab spam.

Thieves can try to defend this spamming as much as they can but in the end it means they don’t want to use skill. They just want to spam their number 1 until it works.

Am I wrong?

Binary Rain.4869:

Seeing how I might be one of the only thieves to view into the Warrior profession….
Let me try to put this in perspective for your class: would you want to lose all your adrenaline when your F1 ability is blocked? That, I think, would be a terrible mechanic. Same thing for thief, if something as simple as blocking gives us a revealed debuff would just about completely mitigate our stealth.

As others have said, that’s not an accurate comparison. When a Warrior’s burst attack is blocked or misses, the burst goes on full cooldown (7-10 seconds), but we retain our adrenaline. When a thief stealth attack is blocked or misses…nothing happens. You don’t even lose initiative because it’s the 1-slot skill.

The equivalent for a thief should be to trigger revealed. When a warrior misses that burst, it can really leave us flapping in the breeze. If a thief misses that stealth attack, they should get the same result, which would be revealed.

If you’re suggesting that a warrior should lose all adrenaline when a burst misses, in addition to the cooldown…well then a thief should lose 1/2 of your full initiative, in addition to being revealed. That seems fair to me.

Bear on the job.6273:

As others have said, that’s not an accurate comparison. When a Warrior’s burst attack is blocked or misses, the burst goes on full cooldown (7-10 seconds), but we retain our adrenaline. When a thief stealth attack is blocked or misses…nothing happens. You don’t even lose initiative because it’s the 1-slot skill.

Taking this small part….. what about having a 1-initiative cost to do the stealthed skill, if failed then we wasted an initiative, if hit we get that 1-initiative back? I still say forcing a stealth drop on that would be a bit extreme, but this allows room for good gameplay along with punishing a thief for trying to backstab spam through a warrior’s block. Also this way we can still get past a gaurdian’s initial aegis or a blind.

Binary Rain.4869:

Also this way we can still get past a gaurdian’s initial aegis or a blind.

“My OP, 0 skill mechanic must continue to completely negate the defensive mechanics of everybody else.”

How about if you hit some1’s aegis from stealth or clean a blind from stealth then the cd of the person who used that skill gets reset because your mechanic gets to stay, why not theirs?