Guild Wars 2

anabasis.7346:

According to your comment quoted below, both glasses should be filled with the same amount of water if 0<t<10.
Even thought this is false because the first glass would be filled with 18oz of water in 10s (1.8oz per second), and the second glass would be filled with 17oz (1,7 ounces per second).

Carrying on with your logic, it tells us that Only if 10<t<(infinite), the 54oz glass would start to fill quicker than the 51oz glass which equates to the extra hits that you are talking about.

Warlord.9074:

Way this trait works in practice to be a DPS increase in under the circumstances that that Attack speed eventually equates into extra hits in a set time period. It doesn’t start to give you extra hits until about 10s into Auto attacking. Which basically means if you want an extra hit in the same time it would take you to DPS without a trait you have to not stop AA for longer than 10s. At which case if you can AA for 30s uninterrupted you will have 3 extra hits. About an extra hit every 10s with axes.
.

No, didn’t you read what he wrote.

If you first fill one glass with 1.8 oozes and then another with 1.7 oozes there is barely any difference so it is just same. Doesn’t matter if you repeat that filling like 100 times because 100 time nothing is still nothing.

Note I only tested this for red oozes but should also work for other colors.

I’d say a tenth of a second every second adds up to a lot since there’s a lot of seconds out there.

I guess the real question here though is how many seconds fit in a glass. Once we know that we can start making videos of glasses filling up to calculate the DPS > DPG conversion ratio.

Warlord.9074:

Tree.3916:

You have a two empty glasses. You begin filling them at the same time. At the end of 30 seconds one glass has 54oz, other has 51oz. which glass filled with more water per second? And how much was the difference in rate? Assuming the glasses held 54 ounces, which one would fill first? How much faster would the one who filled first have been filled?

Wow I think we can finally agree on something that in 30 secs one glass is fuller than the other. Pretending you can stand in once place for 30 seconds and land that many consecutive axe chains on a creature in game that isnt a golem. This turns out to be a pretty big difference in over a second or 2.

Let me switch it on you pretend that you have 2 glasses and you begin pouring water
at the same time in under 10 secs. Not only are both glasses have almost indistinguishably the same amount of water in them but the differences are as little as .1 to .2s.

Which almost means nothing to anyone without a tight butt.

Edit:

And that is why DWA is no good.

You really should never…

http://i.imgur.com/1Gi7rwr.gif

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I’d say a tenth of a second every second adds up to a lot since there’s a lot of seconds out there.

I guess the real question here though is how many seconds fit in a glass. Once we know that we can start making videos of glasses filling up to calculate the DPS > DPG conversion ratio.

If you say so… except a 1/10 of a second is not a second and you need 10 of those until you reach 1 second. Which would be singular and not plural.

Which would take you between 20 and 30 seconds before you reached a time savings on 1 second. Which would depend on a lot of things to favorably happen for you.

Which is essentially my entire argument that I will never concede.

And that changes… what?
@Gyler, thanks for that gem.

hendo.1940:

And that changes… what?
@Gyler, thanks for that gem.

When you find a perfect world to live in come back and talk to me. lol

Does this mean that things that occur in less than a second in the Warlordverse haven’t actually happened at all?

EDIT: Less than a glass I mean.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Does this mean that things that occur in less than a second in the Warlordverse haven’t actually happened at all?

EDIT: Less than a glass I mean.

In the warlordverse, having to dodge, going down, getting CCed by mobs, having to back out of a fight to heal, messing up your rotations, taking a sip of water from a glass. All acount for a loss of time savings. So in the warlordverse where none of things happen you are absolutely correct in your conclusions.

So now you people have moved from talking frames in a video and stopwatches to human perception and… metaphors of filling glasses?

Wow.

What if it’s not a glass but a bottle or a mug?

Have you accounted for those in your video tests?

Cause I have.

Yes you may need to dodge and all that, but you know what helps get your auto-attack chain to finish before anything like that can occur?

Take a wild guess.

Gyler.8150:

Yes you may need to dodge and all that, but you know what helps get your auto-attack chain to finish before anything like that can occur?

Take a wild guess.

It’s pretty subjective to say the least and I’d wager it differs on a case by case scenario.

I’d like to see this trait slightly buffed. Although I have been told that it would be overpowered to buff it slightly, I can’t see it in its current state as strong as some of our other grandmaster traits.

Either buffed or moved to master tier arms. At that point I think it could give Pure GS a run for its money.

In its current position on the tree its not very viable for PVP. If it was moved to master it could find some use, but otherwise leaving it in its current position and buffing it would only effect PVE balance and I am not sure anyone at anet really cares about that since its pretty much a face roll.

Wait are we talking about pvp now? Thought this was all pve.

Na this trait is strictly PVE. Its position in the Tree, and the tree that its in makes it too deep to do anything thing for PVP. Now that we understand the full mechanics of the trait, I can say its fair to say that its not very useful in PVP even if it was in master tier.

Basically because with direct damage I can hit really hard and make mistakes, and still have done DPS based on hitting harder.

If I hit for 1100damage make a mistake I still hit for 1100 Damage.

With this miniscule speed increase Ill hit for 1000 .1s faster make a mistake and still have only hit for 1000 and lost 1.0s of time.

Ty for the tests btw guys it was nice to have some help testing this. It kinda makes me shake my head though I don’t think anyone would say that a ASPD bonus that can give a 9% DPS increase on paper. Would have been better than just flat out giving us a 10% Direct Damage increase like other traits do.

If I had the choice between DWA as it is now. And another trait that gave an additional flat 10% dmg increase I wouldn’t blink and would take the flat increase.

A flat increase will scale. This trait wont scale its fixed and requires you to play perfectly to get the most mileage out of it.

A flat increase won’t scale either lol.

You’re a funny guy Warlord.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

A flat increase won’t scale either lol.

You’re a funny guy Warlord.

Really I didn’t know that sigil of force for example didn’t scale with my power? If sigil of force isn’t a flat increase than I guess I said the wrong thing.

But considering I said a 10% I don’t know how you could confuse that with a flat increase if you yourself knew what you were talking about either since I think I clearly said that and since I was refering to traits like attack of opportunity I think you just don’t like really have good reading comprehension or something anyways.

But I think what it boils down to is you dont really add anything of value to this entire thread except trolling. And the only person that helped verify anything was DUB.

Sure other people may have had pretty decent estimates but no one had got it as accurately as we did.

Where every other mathematical estimate I could find showed times savings much larger than what they really were.

My onion that we figured everything out as close down to what we did is pretty stellar troll all you want cant change that.

This thread needs to die, its just people bickering at this point.

Seerstrange.4723:

This thread needs to die, its just people bickering at this point.

Please not, Warlord is the pug we want, although not the one we deserve. This is just way too much fun.

Warlord.9074:

Na this trait is strictly PVE. Its position in the Tree, and the tree that its in makes it too deep to do anything thing for PVP. Now that we understand the full mechanics of the trait, I can say its fair to say that its not very useful in PVP even if it was in master tier.

Basically because with direct damage I can hit really hard and make mistakes, and still have done DPS based on hitting harder.

If I hit for 1100damage make a mistake I still hit for 1100 Damage.

With this miniscule speed increase Ill hit for 1000 .1s faster make a mistake and still have only hit for 1000 and lost 1.0s of time.

Ty for the tests btw guys it was nice to have some help testing this. It kinda makes me shake my head though I don’t think anyone would say that a ASPD bonus that can give a 9% DPS increase on paper. Would have been better than just flat out giving us a 10% Direct Damage increase like other traits do.

If I had the choice between DWA as it is now. And another trait that gave an additional flat 10% dmg increase I wouldn’t blink and would take the flat increase.

A flat increase will scale. This trait wont scale its fixed and requires you to play perfectly to get the most mileage out of it.

What you are describing is the worst case scenario. If your attack takes 1s and you interrupt it at 1s then yes, DWA gives no boost. But if you interrupt it at 0.95s then you get hit only with DWA which means infinite boost.

So DWA gives 0% – Inf% more DPS depending on the scenario. This averages at ~8%. So longer the fight goes, closer the DPS boost becomes to 8%.

Flat boost also has a worst scenario with 0% boost (you never get a hit) but that’s pretty rate situation. So flat boosts are more reliable.

Hello,

Warlord.9074:

Na this trait is strictly PVE. Its position in the Tree, and the tree that its in makes it too deep to do anything thing for PVP. Now that we understand the full mechanics of the trait, I can say its fair to say that its not very useful in PVP even if it was in master tier.

I’m not sure I have understood all that was said in the thread (I haven’t read all of it), so I apologize in advance if I’m saying stupid thing, or things already stated. My point is: I have some doubt about the trait being that bad, especially in a PVP context.

I don’t think that the DPS matters here. The trait lets you hit faster, so what it basically does is grant you an increased opportunity to hit your foe once more, before the opponent blocks, dodges or escapes outside of your reach. What should be discussed is how probable that supplemental hit happens to be – and in PvP, it mainly depends on the skills of both players, and how they play their own skill rotations. Personally, I’ve been working fast rotations for certain combos, so I really feel such a trait could help.

Incidentally, I believe that there is a particular case where this extra hit shines: in the application of conditions. Consider DWA on a double sword condition build, using on-crit sigils like Sigil of Earth. Hitting 10% faster grants you a better chance to apply up to 3 bleed stacks if both the Sigil of Earth works, and if Precises Strikes activates. This has no price.

Just my 2c.

Elegie.3620:

Hello,

Warlord.9074:

Na this trait is strictly PVE. Its position in the Tree, and the tree that its in makes it too deep to do anything thing for PVP. Now that we understand the full mechanics of the trait, I can say its fair to say that its not very useful in PVP even if it was in master tier.

I’m not sure I have understood all that was said in the thread (I haven’t read all of it), so I apologize in advance if I’m saying stupid thing, or things already stated. My point is: I have some doubt about the trait being that bad, especially in a PVP context.

I don’t think that the DPS matters here. The trait lets you hit faster, so what it basically does is grant you an increased opportunity to hit your foe once more, before the opponent blocks, dodges or escapes outside of your reach. What should be discussed is how probable that supplemental hit happens to be – and in PvP, it mainly depends on the skills of both players, and how they play their own skill rotations. Personally, I’ve been working fast rotations for certain combos, so I really feel such a trait could help.

Incidentally, I believe that there is a particular case where this extra hit shines: in the application of conditions. Consider DWA on a double sword condition build, using on-crit sigils like Sigil of Earth. Hitting 10% faster grants you a better chance to apply up to 3 bleed stacks if both the Sigil of Earth works, and if Precises Strikes activates. This has no price.

Just my 2c.

I don’t think anyone really understands anything Warlord is saying. It’s all crap about glasses of water and percentages scaling and whatever else pops into his head at any given time.

Warlord has to be trolling.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Does this mean that things that occur in less than a second in the Warlordverse haven’t actually happened at all?

EDIT: Less than a glass I mean.

So you would agree that .99* is in fact not equal to 1?

• I don’t know how to insert a vinculum into this forum.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Does this mean that things that occur in less than a second in the Warlordverse haven’t actually happened at all?

EDIT: Less than a glass I mean.

So you would agree that .99* is in fact not equal to 1?

• I don’t know how to insert a vinculum into this forum.

Except that 0.99* represents in fact the number 1 and is therefore equal to it?

Last thing I will add to this thread before it dies since I have had a little while to think about it. Then it can disappear.

This trait was extremely difficult to calculate its effect on an axe chain. Even though Dub was able to recreate my math, his math is still not totally correct.

Almost every hit of the axe chain does a different amount of damage. The majority of the damage is located at the end of the axe chain. Most of the paper calculations assume that all hits of the axe chain do equal amounts of damage.

If we took the 30 seconds scenario where DWA causes 3 extra hits to land on a target golem based on my calculations we know exactly which of those hit are.
They are chop and both double chops. The point of pointing that out is out of the 6 hits that the axe chain does those 3 hits are the absolute weakest part.

So when you make an equation that simple say you do 9% damage that is a very rough estimate based on averages not on actual damage.

The last point that I sort of made or tried to make is when we just say that DWA does 9% more damage its essentially only on paper. Or a test that involves attacking a golem for X amout of time.

Normally 9% damage would mean you hit a target 9% harder. That eqates into a damage number that is 9% larger. In this case Your 9% damage is based on time savings. Or roughly you save .09 seconds per attack. But dont in all actuality do 9% more damage unless you have accumulated enough time saving by landing enough Axe chains. That it outweighs any mistakes that you do. That means dodging, going down or having to stop attacking.

To make it simple. One axe chaing without DWA example will do 4000 Damage. One axe chain with DWA will do 4000 Damage .09s faster. And in the case that you need to dodge or stop attacking after that AXE chain you have still done 4000 Damage either way and any amount of time savings that may of occurred .09 is lost.

So in this scenario DWA did in fact not do 9% more damage it did in fact do nothing for you.

I think we should try having Warlord type a post without using any words he doesn’t understand and see if he can’t still form any coherent complete sentences more complex than “Hello.”

Warlord.9074:

—
If we took the 30 seconds..
—

Cherry-picking. Why not 29 s, 31 s or 29.431152 s?

So when you make an equation that simple say you do 9% damage that is a very rough estimate based on averages not on actual damage.

DPS, not damage.

—
In this case Your 9% damage is based on time savings. Or roughly you save .09 seconds per attack.
—

You save 0.09 seconds PER second, not PER attack.

—
So in this scenario DWA did in fact not do 9% more damage it did in fact do nothing for you.
—

Correct, but that’s just one situation. DWA gives up to Infinite % more damage.

He’s been saying the same thing over 5 pages?

We got that DWA doesn’t give you better damage/dps if you get interrupted. Since it’s sPvP, the interest in DWA would be to place faster your skills. And yes in some cases, exemple for axe or sword, it’d be an increase of the DPS. (But I’d rather say that DWA is more for increase of burst damage, max damage dealt in the shortest time, than a real increase of AA skills. If you take axe/mace and do 5,4,2,F1, I feel like DWA is making more noticeable damage increase than the same combo without DWA; if done well you’ll place this burst while the enemy is still knock-downed and without DWA he might have time to dodge Eviscerate, since it’s animation if slow.)

However, I agree that an increase of the attack speed would be really interesting. 15% will be more noticeable and will be played more by warriors => build diversity. Even why not 20%? The gameplay would be much more fun and warriors will be more likely to let down Cleansing Ire in order to get DWA.

Asato.5479:

He’s been saying the same thing over 5 pages?

We got that DWA doesn’t give you better damage/dps if you get interrupted. Since it’s sPvP, the interest in DWA would be to place faster your skills. And yes in some cases, exemple for axe or sword, it’d be an increase of the DPS. (But I’d rather say that DWA is more for increase of burst damage, max damage dealt in the shortest time, than a real increase of AA skills. If you take axe/mace and do 5,4,2,F1, I feel like DWA is making more noticeable damage increase than the same combo without DWA; if done well you’ll place this burst while the enemy is still knock-downed and without DWA he might have time to dodge Eviscerate, since it’s animation if slow.)

However, I agree that an increase of the attack speed would be really interesting. 15% will be more noticeable and will be played more by warriors => build diversity. Even why not 20%? The gameplay would be much more fun and warriors will be more likely to let down Cleansing Ire in order to get DWA.

Because it’d be ridiculously OP if that were the case.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Because it’d be ridiculously OP if that were the case.

welp. If you knew anything about PVP which I think you don’t haha. Considering almost everything you have to say about anything GW2 related has to do with PVE. I’d suspect that you don’t really undestand PVP enough to know that this trait currently has no use in Competitive levels of PVP. I mean if you really think people are switching from Hambow to this even if it was buffed I think you fell out of your rocker.

ANd to the person above me try playing warrior without cleasin IRE and your going to find out really quick its not viable. Which is pretty much it, as a warrior your not only forced to put at least 20 in defense but your really forced to put at the very least of 15 into discipline. And warriors are not going to choose this trait over grandmaster discapline or grandmaster defense traits because it just really is either not anywhere close to being as useful or simply isn’t at all viable.

Wethospu.6437:

Warlord.9074:

—
If we took the 30 seconds..
—

Cherry-picking. Why not 29 s, 31 s or 29.431152 s?

So when you make an equation that simple say you do 9% damage that is a very rough estimate based on averages not on actual damage.

DPS, not damage.

—
In this case Your 9% damage is based on time savings. Or roughly you save .09 seconds per attack.
—

You save 0.09 seconds PER second, not PER attack.

—
So in this scenario DWA did in fact not do 9% more damage it did in fact do nothing for you.
—

Correct, but that’s just one situation. DWA gives up to Infinite % more damage.

And Wethospu if thats really your name. When you see me cherry picking and you think that I am doing it for my benefit thats a misconception of yours. My cherry picking is to help your argument which quite frankly is a lot weaker if I were to pick 29 or 31. Specific time frames I cherry pick are stricktly based on mechanics of the skill where times savings eqaute into extra hits. If you want me to pick time frames that represent no extra hits that I would be happy to. It will only hurt your case.

Wethospu.6437:

You save 0.09 seconds PER second, not PER attack.

In that case it makes it even worst like I know you love this skill dude. But thats not really how it works. It takes the channel time of which ever skill that is getting casted and reduces it. And I am sure like you think its the most over powered best skill in the game right now. I also know that you use it despite GS being better because your just that kinda fan boy. But your really not helping your case at all.

Believe me I hate being mean to you and other people but I kinda feel like even if I was nice your heads would still be so far up your behinds that you still think this skill is great. So i Decide to be mean at least that feels better and atleast its honest rather than lieing to myself that I actually like people I don’t even know that disagree with me and who are wrong.

We have Guanglai making PVP related comments about it, that I think no one that seriously PVPs believes because he thinks its so good that buffing it would even dethrone hambow.

I know that its hard to admit this skill isnt really even worth mentioning outside a vacume chamber centered around paper calculations and test centered around attacking golems. And we so much wanted it to be the next coming of a prhophet to save mankind. But it just simply isn’t the trait is garbage and thats just the way it is. Take it or leave it. will be happy when this thread dies just so I can stop replying to stuff like this.

Since when were we ever talking about PvP?

It’s a good trait and that’s pretty much the end of it. I’m sorry that your pretend math doesn’t make it look as good as real math does, but maybe since you’re just making kitten up anyway, you can make kitten up in a way that makes it look better? That way you can continue to pretend you’re right and the rest of us can use the traits that actually work.

Why should you pick that trait over last chance?

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Since when were we ever talking about PvP?

It’s a good trait and that’s pretty much the end of it. I’m sorry that your pretend math doesn’t make it look as good as real math does, but maybe since you’re just making kitten up anyway, you can make kitten up in a way that makes it look better? That way you can continue to pretend you’re right and the rest of us can use the traits that actually work.

Uh…You quoted a person saying that if it was buffed to 15% who was making a comment referencing how nonviable it is in PVP and you said that would be OP. Then I pretty much told you that its not viable in PVP even if it was buffed then the person below you pretty much mirrored that and said why would we take it over last chance. Which last chance is superior to this trait in PVP in every way and I have yet to see a Viable PVP build that uses last chance.

How would buffing it to 15% be overpowered in PVE when warriors with this trait currently are getting out DPSed by pure Great swords. ANd I would wager that buffing it to 15% still would not close that gap. Id also bet that a Pure GS warrior isn’t even close to the highest DPS member of a party currently. So I pretty much still dont understand how you think this skill is as good as it is when we have a mountain of evidence that isn’t just coming from me but multiple sources that it simply isn’t that great and doesn’t do at all what it does on paper.

While absolutely not one single person has been as critical about it as me and not one single person has been trolled about being against it as me. There reason to believe that if I was wrong about it everyone would be using it as a meta build and they are not.

Warlord.9074:

Last thing I will add to this thread before it dies since I have had a little while to think about it. Then it can disappear.

Warlord.9074:

-snip-

Why?

Asato.5479:

—
We got that DWA doesn’t give you better damage/dps if you get interrupted.
—

Actually it does (on average) because you may get interrupted even without the trait

Warlord.9074:

And Wethospu if thats really your name. When you see me cherry picking and you think that I am doing it for my benefit thats a misconception of yours. My cherry picking is to help your argument which quite frankly is a lot weaker if I were to pick 29 or 31. Specific time frames I cherry pick are stricktly based on mechanics of the skill where times savings eqaute into extra hits. If you want me to pick time frames that represent no extra hits that I would be happy to. It will only hurt your case.

Cherrypicking helps no one because it is just a one situation. There is no guarantee that the fight will last exactly 30 seconds.

That extra hit requirement is completely made up by you and is NOT required.

In that case it makes it even worst like I know you love this skill dude. But thats not really how it works. It takes the channel time of which ever skill that is getting casted and reduces it. —

It doesn’t make it worst. It makes it what it is. If you still haven’t figured out how the trait works even when people constantly tell it to you, then you should seriously spend bit more time at the school.

Because that’s how percentiles work. With longer animations you get bigger savings. For example 5% of 2 is more than 5% of 1, not equal.

The warlordverse has no need for school. Warlordverse is all knowing. Here, fill this glass with red oozes!

Warlord.9074:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Since when were we ever talking about PvP?

It’s a good trait and that’s pretty much the end of it. I’m sorry that your pretend math doesn’t make it look as good as real math does, but maybe since you’re just making kitten up anyway, you can make kitten up in a way that makes it look better? That way you can continue to pretend you’re right and the rest of us can use the traits that actually work.

Uh…You quoted a person saying that if it was buffed to 15% who was making a comment referencing how nonviable it is in PVP and you said that would be OP. Then I pretty much told you that its not viable in PVP even if it was buffed then the person below you pretty much mirrored that and said why would we take it over last chance. Which last chance is superior to this trait in PVP in every way and I have yet to see a Viable PVP build that uses last chance.

How would buffing it to 15% be overpowered in PVE when warriors with this trait currently are getting out DPSed by pure Great swords. ANd I would wager that buffing it to 15% still would not close that gap. Id also bet that a Pure GS warrior isn’t even close to the highest DPS member of a party currently. So I pretty much still dont understand how you think this skill is as good as it is when we have a mountain of evidence that isn’t just coming from me but multiple sources that it simply isn’t that great and doesn’t do at all what it does on paper.

While absolutely not one single person has been as critical about it as me and not one single person has been trolled about being against it as me. There reason to believe that if I was wrong about it everyone would be using it as a meta build and they are not.

Um, it doesn’t matter which format he was referring to, if you buff it in PvP it’s going to get buffed in PvE too. A 15% or 20% speed buff to axes would be a massive DPS increase that would put it clear ahead of the greatsword. Right now GS is competitive ONLY because it just barely matches axe within a 1-2% margin and old-school warrior players like having the whirl. If axe had a 10% DPS advantage there’d be no reason to ever use GS.

This thread lasted 12 days? 12 days? Hall of fame quality troll.