Guild Wars 2

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

lol i can get 40k on the last hit on Hundred Blades alone, let’s see a video of an ele beating that

Ye, when you add all hits together it’s like 200k damage. I timed the attack with my watch and it took like 2 seconds so it is 100k dps.

Wethospu.6437:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

lol i can get 40k on the last hit on Hundred Blades alone, let’s see a video of an ele beating that

Ye, when you add all hits together it’s like 200k damage. I timed the attack with my watch and it took like 2 seconds so it is 100k dps.

http://i.imgur.com/j2DKE2K.gif

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

lol i can get 40k on the last hit on Hundred Blades alone, let’s see a video of an ele beating that

I don’t see how this isn’t common knowledge yet. http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/88754-updated-profession-pve-dps-rankings/

you guys have to remember it also effects animation time on all other skills like final thrust and cyclone axe thingy. What i want to know is does axe 5 dps increase significantly with the 10% increase in speed

Vortex.3712:

you guys have to remember it also effects animation time on all other skills like final thrust and cyclone axe thingy. What i want to know is does axe 5 dps increase significantly with the 10% increase in speed

Significantly, no. I think I counted one extra hit with DWA active. But yes, activation time is effected, and Final Thrust isnt as telegraphed in a combo. Again, for this trait to get the most mileage, its better in a pvp environment where player reaction time is a factor.

HiddenFlames.7258:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

lol i can get 40k on the last hit on Hundred Blades alone, let’s see a video of an ele beating that

I don’t see how this isn’t common knowledge yet. http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/88754-updated-profession-pve-dps-rankings/

I don’t get how you don’t see his trollin’/sarcasmin’

I think the best part is he linked my post and didn’t even notice.

This shows warriors are still hung up on the old “meta” of “4 zerks”. Grasping for every single % and arguing with passion about it. They do stack eles in record runs where warrior is merely bannerbot but in their heart they dream about the ever increasing number of 100b now that the new metas have killed it. Also pure axe is like super boring.

robertul.3679:

This shows warriors are still hung up on the old “meta” of “4 zerks”. Grasping for every single % and arguing with passion about it. They do stack eles in record runs where warrior is merely bannerbot but in their heart they dream about the ever increasing number of 100b now that the new metas have killed it. Also pure axe is like super boring.

Honestly it has far less to do with arguing over percentages. And more to do with making sure ANET knows this trait is bad. Explaining to everyone how underwhelming this trait really is. So people do not unknowingly think it is better than what it really is because they didn’t independently test it for themselves. And even if they did test it didn’t test it extensively enough to know that they may have been attacking slightly faster but not necessarily doing more damage because of after cast.

I think if the trait was a 20% aspd bonus it would be really decent for a 6 point investment. Most people around now were not around when frenzy was a 100% aspd boost. what we have now as frenzy a 50% boost is a mere shadow of what the original game mechanics were. What we have here 1/10 of original frenzy. And some people went ape crap over it like it was the best thing that ever graced the face of this earth.

As it stands now there are 2 point investments that equate into more DPS than this trait does. And that shouldn’t be so. If you drop 6 points on something it better be worth it. ANET thinks by inserting things into skill trees that are not worth 6 points they are improving their game. And wonder why people complain all the time. And its not a warrior specific debate, other classes got more useless stuff than this.

I really could care less about pug zerk metas or pro speed run metas. Its all PVE carebear stuff to me. My only problem is when sheepish people blindly follow. Or people who ignore common sense because they can’t seem to grapse things don’t work in game like the work on paper.

What. It works just the way people think it does. A DPS boost is a DPS boost, and the faster attack speed makes it better than just raw DPS because it means more adrenaline generation and procs.

A 20% attack speed bonus would be ridiculous, there’s no trait that gives that much of a DPS boost other than Grenadier, which is incidentally THE epitome of a broken trait.

This is where we differ in opinion. I think people don’t really understand how it works.

Sorry for my bad paint skills. Once DWA has been given a significant amount of time the pink line that represents the DPS difference moves slightly but its only after “Damage over time” not “Damage per seconds.” you hits become slightly faster but the time in between those hits never changes. The after cast speed never changes. So the white lines remain the same. The only thing that eventually changes over time to make a measurable difference is the pink line.

And my gripe with it is initially it makes little difference trait or no trait. For the 1st couple axe chains it is not a real measurable DPS increase. After the 3rd AXE chain you will have hit the target 1 more time with a single chop skill than you would of without the trait.

And where that comes into play is usually I need to dodge after the 1st couple of axe chains. Which then resets any DPS increase this skill would of given. Or a trash mob dies in under 2 axe chains. OR I am in PVP where I would be lucky to get a single axe chain off if any. Or I am running GS/AXE-Mace solo and my weapon swap is on Cool down before 3 axe chains ever occur. In which case Maybe I could land 100 blades which would be more damage than that single chop would provide otherwise.

Conclusion:

The trait makes a measurable DOT or damage over time increase. But without give time GW2 has too many complex variables including minimum and maximum weapon damage where your damage is inconsistent enough where not given enough time I could probably make a video where DWA loses to a non traited DWA if my crits were lucky.

Just stop please. Not funny anymore.

That’s not how math works. It may not give you an extra full hit until any arbitrary breakpoint but it’ll give you more hits overall in any given time frame. Say your attack speed goes from once per second to once per .9 seconds. If we use your screwy method we could put the cutoff point at the 1.9 second mark. That 10% or so attack speed boost would then equate to TWICE AS MANY hits within the time window, or a 200% DPS buff.

We’re all aware that the actual attack speed boost is closer to 8% than 10%. Otherwise it doesn’t really matter because a DPS boost is a DPS boost no matter how you portray it. It doesn’t matter how many seconds it takes to get an “extra hit”, if it takes 10 his to drop a mob, you will get to 10 hits 10% faster with an attack speed boost than without.

See thats where I disagree with the rest of you. And the reason I won’t keep repeating is I counted the hits and I counted the time in between those hits. And I concluded that it was within a margin of randomization initially and within the margin of error later on. Because from my testing the DPS increase as it is stated initially isn
t enough to overcome a margin or randomization to definitively state that it is a 7-8% DPS increase since this skill cannot be calculated in the same way other DPS increases are calculated.. Later on I plan on demonstrating golems going down faster without DWA because of randomization.

I know we can for sure say a DPS increase is a DPS increase no matter how we try to rationalize it. I agree with you. But you also have to agree that a piece of poop is also a piece of poop no mater what color it is or how it smells.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I think the best part is he linked my post and didn’t even notice.

I somewhat get it now.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

A 20% attack speed bonus would be ridiculous, there’s no trait that gives that much of a DPS boost other than Grenadier, which is incidentally THE epitome of a broken trait.

But basically the only one making engineer dps somewhat okay’ish.

Warlord.9074:

bull

To make it easy for you, get your critchance to 100% and kill a normal mob in cursed shore with just axe autoattacks. Once without, once with the trait. Assuming you always crit and deal the same amount per hit, now check both in frame for frame format. If you can’t figure the kill speed difference then, a) just don’t ever come back to the forum or, if you can, b) apologize for giving false information, followed by a).

Dub.1273:

To make it easy for you, get your critchance to 100% and kill a normal mob in cursed shore with just axe autoattacks. Once without, once with the trait. Assuming you always crit and deal the same amount per hit, now check both in frame for frame format. If you can’t figure the kill speed difference then, a) just don’t ever come back to the forum or, if you can, b) apologize for giving false information, followed by a).

The time it takes to kill a mob is a not a proper indicator for DPS. The base number that is selected that goes through multipliers and whatnot to become your damage, is selected at random from a uniform distribution. The crit assumption is a legit assumption, since this is possible and we can control that, but we cannot safetly assume that one can “deal the same amount per hit”. Using time to kill a mob can lead to false conclusions, such as build X is superior to Y even if the builds are actually equal or Y is actually superior to X.

For everyone else in this thread, some of Warlords claims actually have merit. But for some reason, you have dismissed everything. Why? For people that want to move the theorycrafting forward, you certainly are doing a fine job of holding it back…

Edit: Dub, I am sorry I was being a kitten and should not have called you ignorant. Ive edited my post accordingly.

Just because he can’t measure it doesn’t mean it wouldn’t exist.

Sure, it is hard to tell difference of one attack but if you see difference in 10 attacks you can assume that there is also a difference in one attack. If there wasn’t any difference in one attack then what would cause the difference for 10 attacks?

Dub.1273:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I think the best part is he linked my post and didn’t even notice.

I somewhat get it now.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

A 20% attack speed bonus would be ridiculous, there’s no trait that gives that much of a DPS boost other than Grenadier, which is incidentally THE epitome of a broken trait.

But basically the only one making engineer dps somewhat okay’ish.

Well yeah, that’s part of the problem. Engineer DPS is pretty bad without Grenadier (albeit bombs are okay) which means all their stuff is basically balanced around them having Grenadier. Balanced with, bad without. Broken trait since everything revolves around it.

@ Warlord:
It’s randomness within a range. If you kill a golem faster without DWA that’s just you getting good random rolls one time. On average you will kill faster with DWA, that’s super obvious and if you don’t see it you don’t get how basic math works.

Wethospu.6437:

Just because he can’t measure it doesn’t mean it wouldn’t exist.

Sure, it is hard to tell difference of one attack but if you see difference in 10 attacks you can assume that there is also a difference in one attack. If there wasn’t any difference in one attack then what would cause the difference for 10 attacks?

I think you just explained it clearly too many assumptions and blanket statements. saying that DWA is a flat out 7-8-9-10% DPS increase is not only an assumption its a blanket statement.

From my assessment it starts out at probably more like a 1-2% DPS increase which is very hard to measure as you say. Then eventually ends up more like a 5% DPS increase when certain criteria is met that those assumptions are based on.

Why would the DPS increase ramp up over time? Clearly you don’t understand math.

Dub.1273:

Warlord.9074:

bull

To make it easy for you, get your critchance to 100% and kill a normal mob in cursed shore with just axe autoattacks. Once without, once with the trait. Assuming you always crit and deal the same amount per hit, now check both in frame for frame format. If you can’t figure the kill speed difference then, a) just don’t ever come back to the forum or, if you can, b) apologize for giving false information, followed by a).

Can you tell me the increase on aftercast with the trait. I can’t seem to figure it out.

For those that already know what I’m talking about, shhh.

Edit

For those that have no idea what I’m talking about, or how it affects your attacks more than you probably know.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/What-does-aftercast-mean

That explains it o.k. This was a pretty big thing in GW1 too. To give you an example, say you have an attack that takes 1 second to cast, but has a .5 after cast. The total time is 1.5 seconds. If you increase the attack speed by 10% it would lower the 1 second cast time to .9 second cast time, however most things don’t lower the after cast. So it would be a 1.4 second attack.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Why would the DPS increase ramp up over time? Clearly you don’t understand math.

Because your spread sheet or whatever you used to calculate DPS clearly doesn’t contain variables for aftercast or you clearly don’t understand the aftercast game mechanics.

why would it ramp up or why would DPS differences start out small then end up larger.

With flat DPS increase like lets say sigil of force it adds a flat bonus to your damage. And your damage is consistently larger all of the time correct? That is a easy thing to calculate.

With a attack speed increase your damage increase is based on time how long it takes to do damage. If I said you do 1000 damage per hit it is how much damage you do in 10seconds you do 10,000 damage normally. Then said this trait is 10% faster. Then you would theoretically do 11,000 damage in 10 seconds.

No so fast. Because each hit in an axe chain does not do eqaul amounts of DPS. Not only does each hit of an axe chain not do equal DPS but each hit of seperate axe chains using the same skill chop of one chain and chop of another chain do not do equal DPS. Even if both hit are crits. So instead of 11,000 it is more like 10,100 or something. As an example of a single chop being a low damage skill.

Now we need to add after cast what If I told you that a hit takes 1 second to do but it has a .5 after cast. I remove 1/10 of the cast time I am at 1.4 seconds. Not .9 seconds.

Now lets add some things up

1.4X10=14
1.5X10=15
In 10 seconds you do 1 extra hit? Correct. Which equates into the DPS increase of whatever value that extra hit was lets say it was chop. So it equates into the lowest value we could possible add to an axe chain. Certainly not the highest valuse and absolutely not an average of 1/10 of what an entire axe chain is worth. It is worth whatever damage that one hit was.

Now lets say We want to measure the DPS increase in 5 seconds.

1.4×5=7
1.5×5=7.5

See you are looking at .5 less DPS in 5 seconds where in this case there is no such thing as a .5 A .5 = zero hits. There is not such thing as rounding UP you only round down. So there for yes a DPS increase but no measurable DPS increase. Where as if it was 10 seconds we can actually emasure that. Which turns out not to be anywhere close to the 10% that people said. Its maybe not even 5% but I have to run that math again.

Conclusion does that mean that a DPS increase is not there?
NO
Does it mean that the DPS increase is inconsequential under average circumstances given the margin of error and the margin of attack damage variation.
Yes.

Welp… I prefer this craziness over telling everyone to stop posting… even if the conclusion is not the one I would conclude…

Ya I know my conclusions are hard to follow how exactly I came to them. There is a method to the madness as after counting hits frame by frame in my video that skill was actually chop of the 4th axe chain. So your DPS of 10 seconds is basically 3 axe Chains + chop. Your DPS without the trait in 10 seconds was 3 axe chains.

Your DPS in 5 seconds. Under both trait and non trait both builds could land the final double chop on the second chain in 6 seconds.

You think my math is mest up I do too but thats how it works. That makes your DPS in 30seconds X number of axe chains + three Chops. Not tripple chops just 3 regular normal chops that start at the beginning of your axe chains. Thats why I said its extreemly underwhelming.

Uh that’s straight-up wrong.

Even if not all hits of the auto-chain do the same amount of damage. You don’t accumulate hits under the table until you reach an integer then you magically get an extra hit out of nowhere. Damage is averaged over time. There’s no such thing as “you only get a full DPS increase if the last hit connects”. At the 10-hit mark you’re not getting one extra hit’s worth of damage, you’re also that much further along in the chain which means you are going to hit the big final hit sooner. Thus, the average increase is 10%.

Look at it this way. If a mob needs 10 hits to kill and you attack at a rate of 1 per second, you need 10 seconds to kill the mob. If you attack at a rate of 1.1 per second, you only need 10 / 1.1 = 9.09 seconds to get 10 hits to kill the mob which is, surprise, 10% faster and thus 10% more DPS.

Your “you only get damage when you get an integer number” claim is almost as silly as your “your DPS doesn’t actually increase because RNG might cause you to deal less damage sometimes” argument. I don’t think you understand how averages work, you’re literally playing at understanding basic math which is really, really sad.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Uh that’s straight-up wrong.

Even if not all hits of the auto-chain do the same amount of damage. You don’t accumulate hits under the table until you reach an integer then you magically get an extra hit out of nowhere. Damage is averaged over time. There’s no such thing as “you only get a full DPS increase if the last hit connects”. At the 10-hit mark you’re not getting one extra hit’s worth of damage, you’re also that much further along in the chain which means you are going to hit the big final hit sooner. Thus, the average increase is 10%.

Look at it this way. If a mob needs 10 hits to kill and you attack at a rate of 1 per second, you need 10 seconds to kill the mob. If you attack at a rate of 1.1 per second, you only need 10 / 1.1 = 9.09 seconds to get 10 hits to kill the mob which is, surprise, 10% faster and thus 10% more DPS.

Your “you only get damage when you get an integer number” claim is almost as silly as your “your DPS doesn’t actually increase because RNG might cause you to deal less damage sometimes” argument. I don’t think you understand how averages work, you’re literally playing at understanding basic math which is really, really sad.

I pretty much through arguing with you your basically assuming the game works in a in certain way. Where I never assumed anything I recorded a video and ran a test then counted hits frame by frame under time lapse. In a controlled experiment.

You on the other hand came up with an assumption of how you believe trait worked and ran a mathematical equation based on how you believed the game mechanics worked.

We came with 2 seperate conclusions. Your conclusion came from averages because that’s all you had to work with was math.

My conclusion came from raw game data where I didn’t use any mathematical equations I visually observed what was happening and then I analyzed what happened from a recording.

So I believe my analysis to be more accurate than yours. You can believe what ever you want at this point I really don’t care. You can keep your averages I will keep my visual inspection.

I believe that this trait. Is the same DPS boost in 30 seconds as sigil of rage.

Sigil of rage gain quickness for 3 seconds cool down 30 seconds.
Where sigil of rage procs once every 30 seconds to give you a 50% ASPD boost.
Which then averages out to be the Same DPS this trait does in 30 seconds. That is essentially how lame this trait is. How many people do you know that think sigil of rage is awesome? I know none.

The difference is sigil of rage is a whole lot better if your only going to attack something of 5-10 seconds and thats it. This trait would take a whole 30 seconds to average out the same damage as a axe equipped with sigil of rage did in 30 seconds.

Not very accurate test but you can clearly see that DWA affects even first attack of the chain.

10 chops without DWA: 7.625s

10 chops with DWA: 7.208s

7.625 / 7.208 = 1.06 -> 6% more DPS which is way more than your 1%-2%.

Warlord.9074:

—
With a attack speed increase your damage increase is based on time how long it takes to do damage. If I said you do 1000 damage per hit it is how much damage you do in 10seconds you do 10,000 damage normally. Then said this trait is 10% faster. Then you would theoretically do 11,000 damage in 10 seconds.

No so fast. Because each hit in an axe chain does not do eqaul amounts of DPS. Not only does each hit of an axe chain not do equal DPS but each hit of seperate axe chains using the same skill chop of one chain and chop of another chain do not do equal DPS. Even if both hit are crits. So instead of 11,000 it is more like 10,100 or something. As an example of a single chop being a low damage skill.

Except cherry-picking duration to support your claim doesn’t make it true. Pick a duration where DWA allows you to get a big hit and not a small one.

—
See you are looking at .5 less DPS in 5 seconds where in this case there is no such thing as a .5 A .5 = zero hits. There is not such thing as rounding UP you only round down. So there for yes a DPS increase but no measurable DPS increase. Where as if it was 10 seconds we can actually emasure that. Which turns out not to be anywhere close to the 10% that people said. Its maybe not even 5% but I have to run that math again.
—

If you interrupt your attack then of course your DPS gets lower. But you can interrupt your attacks even without DWA and you seem to very conveniently ignore that.

I think the problem both groups are having in this thread is the lack of understanding on what an aftercast is, and what affects it. Certain things do not affect an after cast, while certain things do.

except I never cheery picked durations to support my claims. I picked 100% becasue this trait increases aspd by 10%. Which is a reasonable thing to pick. Let me throw you a bone though since you still dont get it.

Show me a scenario that supports your claim that DWA allows you to land a big hit that you wouldn’t of otherwise been able to land without it…. As I have clearly shown anything under the 1st three chains is negligable.

And you say 10 chops but dont understand that chop is only the 1st skill in an axe chain.

DWA in 10 seconds.
Chop 1 hit
Double Chop 2 hits.
Triple chop 3 hits.
Chop 1 hit
Double Chop 2 hits.
Triple chop 3 hits.
Chop 1 hit
Double Chop 2 hits.
Triple chop 3 hits.
Chop

Non DWA in 10 secs
Chop 1 hit
Double Chop 2 hits.
Triple chop 3 hits.
Chop 1 hit
Double Chop 2 hits.
Triple chop 3 hits.
Chop 1 hit
Double Chop 2 hits.
Triple chop 3 hits.

Entire chain 6 hits. 1st hit does least amount of damage,
Since the very 1st hit is the 1st hit to be modified by 10% it sets tempo of all subsequent hits. Because each hit of the axe chain is an individual skill…….The whole axe chain is a chain that is tied together by aftercast inbetween they are held together by somthing called after cast. After cast doesn’t move. DWA modifies the entire chain as if it was 6 seperate skills lol Where each hit has an added after cast of a different amount attached to it. Thats why a 10% difference is a lot smaller than people think.

Thats why if you stop auto attacking in the middle of a chain and do not resume your chain resets and you have to start all over with chop.

That is why your guys math is wrong becasue you have averages but you don’t know the algebraic values of after cast so your calculations are wrong.
Edited for typos

i dun even need to run tests to know that this new grandmaster trait is useless.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

I think the problem both groups are having in this thread is the lack of understanding on what an aftercast is, and what affects it. Certain things do not affect an after cast, while certain things do.

I don’t think you understand it either.

Warlord.9074:

except I never cheery picked durations to support my claims. I picked 100% becasue this trait increases aspd by 10%. Which is a reasonable thing to pick. Let me throw you a bone though since you still dont get it.

What 100%? 100% = 1 so you picked one? Makes no sense to me.

Show me a scenario that supports your claim that DWA allows you to land a big hit that you wouldn’t of otherwise been able to land without it…. As I have clearly shown anything under the 1st three chains is negligable.

Let’s say whole chain takes X s to finish. Let’s attack for n*X – 0.01 seconds (n is any integer). Without DWA you will miss last big hit in all cases. With DWA you will be slightly faster and will get the last big hit.

Let’s say first hit takes Y s to finish. Let’s attack for Y – 0.01 seconds. Without DWA you won’t have enough time to hit and will do zero damage. With DWA you will be able to hit which results in infinite times more damage.

And you say 10 chops but dont understand that chop is only the 1st skill in an axe chain.

If you keep attacking air you will always use the 1st skill.

DWA in 10 seconds.
Chop 1 hit
Double Chop 2 hits.
Triple chop 3 hits.
Chop 1 hit
Double Chop 2 hits.
Triple chop 3 hits.
Chop 1 hit
Double Chop 2 hits.
Triple chop 3 hits.
Chop

Non DWA in 10 secs
Chop 1 hit
Double Chop 2 hits.
Triple chop 3 hits.
Chop 1 hit
Double Chop 2 hits.
Triple chop 3 hits.
Chop 1 hit
Double Chop 2 hits.
Triple chop 3 hits.

Entire chain 6 hits. 1st hit does least amount of damage,
Since the very 1st hit is the 1st hit to be modified by 10% it sets tempo of all subsequent hits. Because each hit of the axe chain is an individual skill…….The whole axe chain is a chain that is tied together by aftercast inbetween they are held together by somthing called after cast. After cast doesn’t move. DWA modifies the entire chain as if it was 6 seperate skills lol Where each hit has an added after cast of a different amount attached to it. Thats why a 10% difference is a lot smaller than people think.

Again cherry-picking. Proves nothing.

Thats why if you stop auto attacking in the middle of a chain and do not resume your chain resets and you have to start all over with chop.

As I showed above on my test, even with just the first attack you get ~6% more DPS.

That is why your guys math is wrong becasue you have averages but you don’t know the algebraic values of after cast so your calculations are wrong.
Edited for typos

Except I tested values of the first chop in game. If your tests give only 1% more DPS for the first chop you need to improve your testing method.

Wethospu and Guanglai, I am impressed with the level of patience you two have shown with Warlord.

Honestly guys… sometimes you just have to accept the fact that there are some people in the world that simply can’t be helped. Just let him think what he wants. Sometimes there are people that are “never wrong.”

tl;dr I don’t think anyone’s going to win this argument and it’s just a cyclic mesh of close-mindedness (and apparently ineptitude with intermediate algebra).

We finally found something Guang and Dub can agree on.

I think it’s pretty clear that when Dub, Guang, Weth and Haviz think you’re completely wrong, and you think you’re completely right, that you may need to stop and re-evaluate.

Purple Miku.7032:

Wethospu and Guanglai, I am impressed with the level of patience you two have shown with Warlord.

Honestly guys… sometimes you just have to accept the fact that there are some people in the world that simply can’t be helped. Just let him think what he wants. Sometimes there are people that are “never wrong.”

tl;dr I don’t think anyone’s going to win this argument and it’s just a cyclic mesh of close-mindedness (and apparently ineptitude with intermediate algebra).

I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for the ignorant posting, if it was just a bunch of people saying the right thing all the time it’d get pretty boring pretty fast.

You can definitely see that with relatively small, more elitist communities like Dustloop, where the most interesting new thing that happens is new players coming in asking for advice on a new character and getting good advice for tourney-level players. Compare it to Gamefaqs which is endlessly amusing because of the constant stream of scrubs complaining that X kittenty character is overpowered and needs to be banned etc.

Tree.3916:

We finally found something Guang and Dub can agree on.

I think it’s pretty clear that when Dub, Guang, Weth and Haviz think you’re completely wrong, and you think you’re completely right, that you may need to stop and re-evaluate.

Quoting for absolute truthiness.

I don’t think that I am right I know that am I am right. None of them have been able to provide any evidence that supports thier claims. Other than they just say this skill increases X amount of DPS. But have yet to provide proof that there math exists anywhere outside a calculater lol.

These guys sit there with there calculators with their fail formulas and keep saying welp it says this so it must be so then the rest of us sitting in game not being able to reproduce what they said. Enjoy your sigil of rage trait. Anyways I am done eff you alll.

Cons to DWA:
~Decreases the relative effectiveness of time warp and frenzy
~In short bursts (less than 3 seconds), the trait is worthless
~Decreases attack time of skills but leaves the CDs of those skills the same, potentially leaving wonky rotations

Pros to DWA:
~Is (statistically) significant increase in DPS since it significantly decreases attack time of skills
~Increases the probability of finishing triple chop, thus increasing the probability that you can maintain your highest damage

Warlord, you are always welcome to come to whatever conclusion you want, but I think many of us are in agreement in that DWA is a contender trait for pure axe builds.

Cool I glad that you guys are in agreement that hypothetically its better.

Maybe Warlord will be the second coming of Guang and prove us all wrong.

hendo.1940:

Maybe Warlord will be the second coming of Guang and prove us all wrong.

I think Guang has to die first, otherwise things might get awkward.

Warlord.9074:

I don’t think that I am right I know that am I am right.

So that’s why you don’t read any of our posts.

None of them have been able to provide any evidence that supports thier claims. Other than they just say this skill increases X amount of DPS.

I have already given enough proof.

But have yet to provide proof that there math exists anywhere outside a calculater lol.

You have probably skipped bit too many math classes if you don’t understand its relevancy to real life / in game situations.

DPS means damage per second. If you are going 10% faster per second (excluding aftercast) you are doing 10% more damage. With aftercast included, it translates as a 8.x% damage increase. Nothing else to see here.

haviz.1340:

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

I think the problem both groups are having in this thread is the lack of understanding on what an aftercast is, and what affects it. Certain things do not affect an after cast, while certain things do.

I don’t think you understand it either.

Then explain it to me, explain to me how this trait affects it. Also in terms of dps explain it with this trait. I can, so let’s see you do it.

edit
Reading this thread makes me miss EJ from WoW. People would complain about the rules, but half the posts in this thread would have earned infractions already.

To give you an example, here are their forum rules.
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/forum-172/announcement-5-forum-rules-updated-32214/

There is a reason why they are generally considered the best when it comes to theorycrafting for an mmo. I’m not including LoL btw, because obviously that has it’s own places for theory crafting.

DPS means damage per second. If you are going 10% faster per second (excluding aftercast) you are doing 10% more damage. With aftercast included, it translates as a 8.x% damage increase. Nothing else to see here.

Why do people keep excluding one of the most important parts of the calculations.

With those rules this topic would have got immediately deleted.

Wethospu.6437:

With those rules this topic would have got immediately deleted.

Not really, he did provide a video. People usually accuse their forums of being too strict, and that being so strict stops meaningful discussion. Obviously that is incorrect, but I think watching the video in the OP has merit. It brings up a good point about the calculation of casting speed vs flat attack speed. This trait affects the casting speed, but that seems to be it based on the video.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

Wethospu.6437:

With those rules this topic would have got immediately deleted.

Not really, he did provide a video. People usually accuse their forums of being too strict, and that being so strict stops meaningful discussion. Obviously that is incorrect, but I think watching the video in the OP has merit. It brings up a good point about the calculation of casting speed vs flat attack speed. This trait affects the casting speed, but that seems to be it based on the video.

The OP “proved” it is a 6-8% dps increase over 30 seconds. We have shown that it works out to be a 6-8% dps increase over virtually any given time frame. We have also shown that when you restructure the metric from a set time frame to mob kill time, it would still be 6-8%.

Our argument, that it’s a 6-8% dps increase, is remarkably consistent no matter which way to try to splice it.

To be honest, I am not sure what Warlord is arguing. Every example he has made to “prove” it is less than 6-8% dps increase has been mathematically incorrect and contrary to any consistent logic.

Here is the final test.

Step 1. Imagine a test dummy with 10,000 hit points. The axe auto chain hits for 100 (10,20,20,50 for each individual stop of the axe chain) hit points per chain. One build has DWA, one does not, but they both his the same 100 per rotation. Who kills it faster, and by how much? If I am right, the DWA build will kill it 6-8% faster. You tell me.

Step 2. Imagine a test dummy with 100 hit points. Our axe auto hits for the exact same 100 as in step 1. Who kills it faster, and by how much? If I am right, the DWA will kill it about 6-8% faster. I’ll wait.

Tree.3916:

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

Wethospu.6437:

With those rules this topic would have got immediately deleted.

Not really, he did provide a video. People usually accuse their forums of being too strict, and that being so strict stops meaningful discussion. Obviously that is incorrect, but I think watching the video in the OP has merit. It brings up a good point about the calculation of casting speed vs flat attack speed. This trait affects the casting speed, but that seems to be it based on the video.

The OP “proved” it is a 6-8% dps increase over 30 seconds. We have shown that it works out to be a 6-8% dps increase over virtually any given time frame. We have also shown that when you restructure the metric from a set time frame to mob kill time, it would still be 6-8%.

Our argument, that it’s a 6-8% dps increase, is remarkably consistent no matter which way to try to splice it.

To be honest, I am not sure what Warlord is arguing. Every example he has made to “prove” it is less than 6-8% dps increase has been mathematically incorrect and contrary to any consistent logic.

Here is the final test.

Step 1. Imagine a test dummy with 10,000 hit points. The axe auto chain hits for 100 (10,20,20,50 for each individual stop of the axe chain) hit points per chain. One build has DWA, one does not, but they both his the same 100 per rotation. Who kills it faster, and by how much? If I am right, the DWA build will kill it 6-8% faster. You tell me.

Step 2. Imagine a test dummy with 100 hit points. Our axe auto hits for the exact same 100 as in step 1. Who kills it faster, and by how much? If I am right, the DWA will kill it about 6-8% faster. I’ll wait.

Wouldn’t you kill the 100 health dummy 10% faster? not 6-8%

Tree.3916:

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

Wethospu.6437:

With those rules this topic would have got immediately deleted.

Not really, he did provide a video. People usually accuse their forums of being too strict, and that being so strict stops meaningful discussion. Obviously that is incorrect, but I think watching the video in the OP has merit. It brings up a good point about the calculation of casting speed vs flat attack speed. This trait affects the casting speed, but that seems to be it based on the video.

The OP “proved” it is a 6-8% dps increase over 30 seconds. We have shown that it works out to be a 6-8% dps increase over virtually any given time frame. We have also shown that when you restructure the metric from a set time frame to mob kill time, it would still be 6-8%.

Our argument, that it’s a 6-8% dps increase, is remarkably consistent no matter which way to try to splice it.

To be honest, I am not sure what Warlord is arguing. Every example he has made to “prove” it is less than 6-8% dps increase has been mathematically incorrect and contrary to any consistent logic.

Here is the final test.

Step 1. Imagine a test dummy with 10,000 hit points. The axe auto chain hits for 100 (10,20,20,50 for each individual stop of the axe chain) hit points per chain. One build has DWA, one does not, but they both his the same 100 per rotation. Who kills it faster, and by how much? If I am right, the DWA build will kill it 6-8% faster. You tell me.

Step 2. Imagine a test dummy with 100 hit points. Our axe auto hits for the exact same 100 as in step 1. Who kills it faster, and by how much? If I am right, the DWA will kill it about 6-8% faster. I’ll wait.

I gathered something different from the OP. I look at it and see that the actual attack speed doesn’t match up because of the after cast on the skills. You would normally think of something like a 10% increase in attack speed, to be a roughly 10% increase in dps. If you consider that you attack once per second, and that your attack deals 100 damage. Then over 10 seconds you would deal 1000 damage. With an increased attack speed you would attack once every .9 seconds for a total of 11 times over 10 seconds for 1100 damage. A 10% increase, however there isn’t a flat 10% increase in this. That’s partially due to the nature of the attack being discussed, and probably because increasing attack speed does not increase after cast.

So if the OP’s original point was to say that “This trait doesn’t provide a flat 10% increase to attack speed as it relates to damage, nor does this give a 10% increase to dps as would be implied by a 10% ias”.