Guild Wars 2

As you all know, shout got nerfed recently. Its healing amount got decreased and now become totally useless.

Theorically, shout heal should have actually BUFFED in order to survive from increased overall dmg output around the game, but oppositely, it got nerfed by 1/3 which is lot, and now become toally dead. I would say Anet just killed it.

Personally I liked shout play, becuz using stance warrior I had to too much rely on cheesy buffs such as being immortal for 5 sec or being immortal from condi stuffs or gain vigor or ignore all the control effects. it’s like buff myself and only say"attackklkkkk and killllll, or we dieeeee if failllllll", which sounds like totally, you know, simple and corny.

When I used shout, I had only 1 stun break without any stability so i had to learn what to dodge carefully like eviscerate and earthshake, and what critical condition I need to remove immediately. By using shout, It improved my overall skill and carefulness. Also being supportive improved my overall carefulness over not only me but whole party. I had to carefully watch over HP point of my ally who is in need of heal. I loved it cuz it looks so professional.

However, it is also fact that shout heal was also cheesy. So I would say both were cheesy but shout was a bit more cheesy for only expert warrior who do know what to dodge, when to leave or fight stuffs. Becuz they can sustain based on general game knowledge they learned using shout heal.

So here is my idea for shout,
1. Divide self-heal and party-heal. For self heal, well, meditation guardian does 2000 heal (when using berserker amulet), thus i think around 1500 self-heal per shout (with zerker amulet) is fair since it can also do random party heal.

For party heal, I guess 2000-2500 is fair (when using zerker amulet) it is mostly random heal anyway so it should be greater than self-heal by around 1000.

2. Tactics’s 3rd minor trait “inspiring presence” only works on party heal. It should not affect on self-heal in order to keep balance.

3. Since self-heal amount has got decreased, by a way of compensation for this nerf, Put more offensive & instant condi like blind (on next attack) and etc for shout like “for great justice” or “on my mark”. With this, user can learn when to apply blindness, requiring more skill of player’s carefulness.

Or it is also good to put teleport like guardian. Actually guardian does teleport (or condi remove) + fury buffing + 2000 dmging around him + 2000 heal though. Shout now just does really nothing as compared to this in fact : just small heal around 1000 and fury, nerfed might..

4. Make offesive rune that is affected by shout, not like current soldier rune that has defensive attribute.

5. Make new amulet that is for offensive shouter, like 1200pow, 900prec, 900heal but self-shout heal never be greater than 2000 and party-heal never be greater than 3000 per shout. also, Guardian should have around 2500heal per medi when equipping this. Currently overall dmg output is so high over this game, 2000 heal without any toughness wouldn’t be cheesy.

Anyway, nerfing self heal and improve offesive capability will not make shout being called cheesy but skilled.

So what is your idea to bring back shout line?
Let’s gather some idea!

[SUGGESTION]
honestly? i’d like to see “to the limit” have it’s base heal increased to about 8000 (to make up for the loss of extra healing with more adrenaline, back when it was healing surge). that would make zerker shout warriors heal for about 9000 every 24 seconds.

heal sig zerker warriors still heal for 359 health per second, which equates to roughly 8600 passive healing every 24 seconds.

my suggested buff to “to the limit” would finally offer an alternative to heal sig.

online.1278:

As you all know, shout got nerfed recently. Its healing amount got decreased and now become totally useless.

Theorically, shout heal should have actually BUFFED in order to survive from increased overall dmg output around the game, but oppositely, it got nerfed by 1/3 which is lot, and now become toally dead. I would say Anet just killed it.

Personally I liked shout play, becuz using stance warrior I had to too much rely on cheesy buffs such as being immortal for 5 sec or being immortal from condi stuffs or gain vigor or ignore all the control effects. it’s like buff myself and only say"attackklkkkk and killllll, or we dieeeee if failllllll", which sounds like totally, you know, simple and corny.

When I used shout, I had only 1 stun break so i had to learn what to dodge like eviscerate and earthshake, and what critical condition I need to remove immediately. By using shout, It improved my overall skill and carefulness. Also being supportive improved my overall carefulness over not only me but whole party. I had to carefully watch over HP point of my ally who is in need of heal. I loved it cuz it looks so professional.

However, it is also fact that shout heal was also cheesy. So I would say both were cheesy but shout was a bit more cheesy for only expert warrior who do know what to dodge, when to leave or fight stuffs. Becuz they can sustain based on general game knowledge they learned using shout heal.

So here is my idea for shout,
1. Divide self-heal and party-heal. For self heal, well, meditation guardian does 2000 heal (when using berserker amulet), thus i think around 1500 self-heal per shout (with zerker amulet) is fair since it can also do random party heal.

For party heal, I guess 2000-2500 is fair (when using zerker amulet) it is mostly random heal anyway so it should be greater than self-heal by around 1000.

2. Tactics’s 3rd minor trait “inspiring presence” only works on party heal. It should not affect on self-heal in order to keep balance.

3. Since self-heal amount has got decreased, by a way of compensation for this nerf, Put more offensive & instant condi like blind (on next attack) and etc for shout like “for great justice” or “on my mark”. With this, user can learn when to apply blindness, requiring more skill of player’s carefulness.

Or it is also good to put teleport like guardian. Actually guardian does teleport (or condi remove) + fury buffing + 2000 dmging around him + 2000 heal though. Shout now just does really nothing as compared to this in fact : just small heal around 1000 and fury, nerfed might..

4. Make offesive rune that is affected by shout, not like current soldier rune that has defensive attribute.

Anyway, nerfing self heal and improve offesive capability will not make shout being called cheesy but skilled.

So what is your idea to bring back shout line?
Let’s gather some idea!

I don’t really think shout is dead, it’s balanced. I still use mine and have good support because while there was a slight nerf to warhorn and shout heal, we have been given some buffs I enjoy, some of them are:

-condi clear on weapon swap (which is very frequent)
-might on weapon swap (building up more damage pressure)
-extra toughness above 90%
-Retaliation every 15 seconds upon taking a crit
-We get an endure pain thanks to the trait layout

I love my shoutbow, he still provides valuable support and with things like burning and other conditions, a highly mobile support is still effective. You just have to be aware of the balances that were made and realize what new options you have.

Forgotten Legend.9281:

[SUGGESTION]
honestly? i’d like to see “to the limit” have it’s base heal increased to about 8000 (to make up for the loss of extra healing with more adrenaline, back when it was healing surge). that would make zerker shout warriors heal for about 9000 every 24 seconds.

heal sig zerker warriors still heal for 359 health per second, which equates to roughly 8600 passive healing every 24 seconds.

my suggested buff to “to the limit” would finally offer an alternative to heal sig.

i think we rather need to compare overall self-heal capability of shout warrior to meditation guardian, not stance warrior with heal sig. i will try to calculate it (without shrug it off cuz not all choose this trait but with to the limit cuz it is kinda a must use skill for shout war) and poat later.

okay, let’s compare shoutbow heals to medi guard heals:

celestial amulet + soldier’s runes
warrior shouts: 1560 heal up to 5 targets within 600 range, removes 1 condition
plus 390 hps from heal sig.
traited shout cooldowns, 20, 20, 24, 48(fear me) choose up to 3 of those 4 options

guardian meditations: 2184, heal yourself only. stacks with litany of wrath heal, and merciful intervention heal.
traited medi cooldowns: 16, 36, 48, 40(MI) and 24(LoW), 48 (elite skill)

cleric’s amulet + dwayna runes:
shouts heal for 2375, HS gives 422 hps
meditations heal for 2510 (LoW heals for 1984) (merciful intervention heals for 2785)

[59 seconds]
celestial shoutbow will get 390 hps from HS, and 1560 per shout. so let’s say 20,20,48 cds, so in 59 seconds you can get: (390×59) + (1560×3) 20s cd shout. + (1560 x3) 2nd 20s cd shout + 1560×2 (48s cd shout) = 35490 heal points in 59 seconds for warrior only, not for allies.

cleric’s meditation guard. in 59 seconds. LoW [(1984+2510+2510(from the smite condition when use heal , trait)) x2] + smite condition (2560 × 3) + judges intervention 2560 x2 + contemplation of purity (for extra condi removal and stun break) 2560 x2 = 30144 (or 32704 if you also use the elite) +virtue of resolve (209×59) = 45035

doing the math,.celestial shoutbow 34k vs cleric’s medi guard 45k, the guard has 2x the healing power. i’ll run some numbers for a 3 minute fight too. and edit.

[179 seconds]
celestial shoutbow:
HS 390×179 + SIO 1560×8 + FGJ 1560×8 + FM 1560×3 = 99,450 (add 6240 if you take the other shout instead of FM)

(cleric’s shoutbow 422×179 +2375x8 + 2375×8 + 2375×3 = 120,663)

cleric’s medi guard:
LoW 7144 x7 + SC 2510×11 + JI 2510×4 +CoP 2510×3 + RF 2510×2= 100,288 + VoR 209×179 =137699 (in this fight, smiter’s boon is worth 17920 healing) (merciful intervention would be worth about another 10k over CoP)

keep in mind that the shoutbow warrior can heal up to 5 allies as well with those shouts. the AoE heals would put the warrior in the lead with only one ally in range the whole time.

for the 3 minute calculation: cleric’s + dwayna runes on both builds shows that 5 medi guard outheals 3 shout warrior 138k to 120k (rounded) for self heals. that mean’s a 5 medi guard only gets 15% more self heals. take away smiter’s boon for focus mastery trait, and they heal equally: 120k vs 120k.

PS: i had to edit because i forgot virtue of resolve. i assumed letting VoR remain passive the whole fight. i compared celestial shoutbow due to prior metabuild status, and cleric’s medi guard for the highest healing power possible for the calculations. mainly because of the AoE nature of shouts. i also assumed 3 shouts, vs 5 meditations, i did not count the free SIO trait because condi timing is not guaranteed. i also used heal sig because it gives more healing over time than any other warrior heal.

Forgotten Legend.9281:

okay, let’s compare shoutbow heals to medi guard heals:

celestial amulet + soldier’s runes
warrior shouts: 1560 heal up to 5 targets within 600 range, removes 1 condition
plus 390 hps from heal sig.
traited shout cooldowns, 20, 20, 24, 48(fear me) choose up to 3 of those 4 options

guardian meditations: 2184, heal yourself only. stacks with litany of wrath heal, and merciful intervention heal.
traited medi cooldowns: 16, 36, 48, 40(MI) and 24(LoW), 48 (elite skill)

cleric’s amulet + dwayna runes:
shouts heal for 2375, HS gives 422 hps
meditations heal for 2510 (LoW heals for 1984) (merciful intervention heals for 2785)

celestial shoutbow will get 390 hps from HS, and 1560 per shout. so let’s say 20,20,48 cds, so in 59 seconds you can get: (390×59) + (1560×3)<—- 20s cd shout. + (1560 x3) <—-2nd 20s cd shout + 1560 (48s cd shout) = 33930 heal points in 59 seconds for warrior only, not for allies.

cleric’s meditation guard. in 59 seconds. LoW [(1984+2510+2510(from the smite condition when use heal skill trait)) x2] + smite condition (2560 × 3) + judges intervention 2560 x2 + contemplation of purity (for extra condi removal and stun break) 2560 x2 = 30144 (or 32704 if you also use the elite)

doing the math, it looks like it’s pretty even. that doesn’t count the group heals. 34k > 33k any day of the week. and that’s celestial shoutbow vs cleric’s medi guard, so the guard has 2x the healing power. i’ll run some numbers for a 3 minute fight too. and edit

Here is my calculation.

Calculation Rules :

1. I followed your 59 second base, and my 96 second base rule for this calculation.
2. Zerker amulet and Celestial amulet is used for both calculation. Amulet need to be same when calculating similar stuffs.
3. Exclude regen buff + addtional trait stuffs (like Adrenal Health and Shrug it off and Inspired virtue and Selfless Diring).
4. Seperate Self-Heal and Party Heal. This is IMPORTANT.

Warrior Part (in 59sec base) :
Healing Surge – 2 times + 2 shout times
For Great Justice – 2times
Fear Me – 1 time
Shake it Off – 2 times
= in total, 7 shouts can be useable + 2 Healing Skill

Total Self-Heal amount for 59s (Celestial) = (1560 * 7) + 2(7100) = 25120
Total Party-Heal amount for 59s (Celestial) = (1560 * 7) = 10920

Total Self-Heal Amount for 59s (Berserker) = (1000 * 7) + 2(6540) = 20080
Total Party-Heal Amount for 59s (Berserker) = (1000 * 7) = 7000

Guardian Part (59s base) :
Virtue of Resolve (2045 Heal) – 3 times (becuz cd time is 43s, and you can use 1 more with elite medi skills)
Shelter – 1 time (4947)
J.I – 1 time
S.C – 3 times
CoP – 1 time
R.F(Elite) – 1 time
= total 3 times from virtue + 1 time normal Heal + 6 meditations

Total Self-Heal amount for 59s (Celestial) : 3(2045) + (4947) + 6(2184) = 24186
Total Party-Heal amount for 59s (Celestial) : 3(2045) = 6135

Total Self-Heal amount for 59s (Berserker) : 3(1625) + (4555) + 6(1960) = 21190
Total Party-Heal amount for 59s (Celestial) : 3(1625) = 4875

Here is 96 second bases :

Warrior -
Total Self-Heal amount for 96s (Celestial) = (1560 * 14) + 4(7100) = 50240
Total Party-Heal amount for 96s (Celestial) = (1560 * 14) = 21840

Total Self-Heal Amount for 96s (Berserker) = (1000 * 14) + 4(6540) = 40160
Total Party-Heal Amount for 96s (Berserker) = (1000 * 14) = 14000

Guardian –
Total Self-Heal amount for 96s (Celestial) : 4(2045) + 3(4947) + 12(2184) = 49229
Total Party-Heal amount for 96s (Celestial) : 4(2045) = 8180

Total Self-Heal amount for 96s (Berserker) : 4(1625) + 3(4555) + 12(1960) = 43685
Total Party-Heal amount for 96s (Celestial) : 4(1625) = 6500

[Adding to my Above thread]

CONCLUSION :
Ok. From the inspection of above calculation.

For Self-Heal
1. (When both Using Zerker amulet) Guardian > Warrior – gap is within 1000~3000
2. (When both Using Celestial amulet ) Warrior > Guardian – gap is within 1000.

For Party-Heal,
Warrior is always avg 2 times greater than meditation guardian (Normal Medi guardian but not a bunker guardian)

So Warrior is losing to Guardian heal when using zerker amulet that doesn’t provide any healing point. (only losing to Self-Heal, for party-heal Warrior always win)

In this case, what ANET have to do is:

• Nerf self-heal amount of Warrior only if the warrior has some healing point around or more than celestial level. (0 healing point at zerker amulet level is exception because Guadian has more self-healing than Warrior) I would say toning down increased healing amount of shout based on healing point) Warrior’s Self Heal must be smaller than Guardian when both uses same amulet. While Party-heal should be 1.5x greater than Warrior’s self-heal amount though.

• Add one more break stun on Shout (I think Fear Me is good) : Guardians can use 4 times of break stuns in 48sec, but Warrior can use 2 times in 48sec.

• For condi, guardian removes one every 16sec, all conds at every 48. Warrior remove one condi (20+20+48+24)/4 = 28sec. I wouldn’t say each warrior shout skill should remove 1condi plus converting 1 more condi into boons like guardian shout, but “Shake It off!” need to have one more condi removal (without soldier rune) to be balanced as compared to guardian.

• Since guardian is better than warrior in dmging as well for using meditation becuz its medi dmgs 1000~2000 around him, Warrior also need to have more offensive buffs instead, but not defensive buffs, not to be cheesy warrior : Like, Guardian’s teleport, blind or etc.

• If Anet cannot do above buff and nerf, then they need to bring back increased shout heal amount like before in compensate for lacking in condi remove, stun break, utility like teleport, unable to dmg around him than guardian to make warrior become back to be just cheesy.

Warrior should have less Self-heal than meditation Guardian(by around 3/4 in 96sec base) when both uses same amulet because Warrior has greater party heal than Guardian. (absolutely, cuz I compared Shout Warrior to non-bunker Guardian) Other than that fact, other conditions MUST BE SAME. However, Guardian now seem have more Break stuns, more Condi removal, More offensive buffs in their meditation than Warriors’s Shout.

This is what Anet need to do not to make Shout warrior be cheesy warrior but supportive, good offensive and skilled Warrior : Lose Self-heal point when having more than or around Celestial level of healing point (For zerker amulet, it is fine), add more offensive buffs to Warrior shout like Guardian, add more break stuns and condi removal like guardian. Reversely, Guardian Bunker should both Self and praty-heal more than Shout Warrior as well.

This is my very preciese inspection.
What do you guys think of?

honestly… i think shout warriors tend to build for cleansing ire and take soldier’s runes for the condi cleanse on shout use (at least in PvP), so that makes up for the difference in condi clears. once a warrior takes weapon-swap condi clear, cleansing ire, and warhorn condi clear, warrior has plenty of condi removal. that’s from a “shoutbow” build, of course.

i think, that between both of our sets of calculations, using different healing skills and different amulets, we have discovered that warrior and guard healing is actually pretty close. maybe even closer than either of us would have thought before.

my first reaction to the warrior shout nerf was to cry. but now that i see the numbers, i’m okay with it.

Forgotten Legend.9281:

honestly… i think shout warriors tend to build for cleansing ire and take soldier’s runes for the condi cleanse on shout use (at least in PvP), so that makes up for the difference in condi clears. once a warrior takes weapon-swap condi clear, cleansing ire, and warhorn condi clear, warrior has plenty of condi removal. that’s from a “shoutbow” build, of course.

i think, that between both of our sets of calculations, using different healing skills and different amulets, we have discovered that warrior and guard healing is actually pretty close. maybe even closer than either of us would have thought before.

my first reaction to the warrior shout nerf was to cry. but now that i see the numbers, i’m okay with it.

Yes. As I inspected more closery, actually shout healing amount for SELF-HEAL only now is got pretty balanced : Guardian healing is better than warrior in self-heal with samely zerker amulet since it is only about self-heal. But not party-heal. But the problem was in rather different aspects : strangely shout war with some higher amount of healing point has more self-heal than medi-guardian with same amulet (this should also be nerfed), and shout war lacks in condi removal, # of stun breaks, number of offensive stuffs than guardian’s. Just, yeah, just that’s it. I guess.

I think this is what makes using shout build is called cheesy. Because it forces shout warrior to only use amulet with some healing point in order to have greater self-healing amount than medi guardian : usually cele, settler stuffs. Because medi guard does more heal even with zerker amulet unless shout war use only those cheesy amulets.

Lastly anet need to seperate self-heal and party-heal and boost party-heal upto previous healing level before patch in compensate for less self-heal than medi guardian.

i suppose i should also mention, that warrios shout build is pretty much the best healing they can do…

i didn’t add any of the healing that a guard can get from Honor line… which offers a heal on dodge roll (1500+ with cleric’s gear), and heal when aegis blocks an attack (1300 plus with cleric’s gear). now, you can add another 4500 healing every 30 seconds (2 dodges plus one aegis block in 30 seconds). to my cleric guard calculations above, if the guard traits honor, too.

before counting possible heals from weapon skills. (mace autoattack can grant another 650 group heal every 3 seconds if all attacks connect, and mace 2 can grant regen, shield 5 can give another 1600 group heal every 20 seconds, etc)

my calculations from the other post only showed healing from skills 6-0 using only one trait line per class.

if a PVP guardian takes meditations AND mace +shield, AND honor spec, guardian has more self heals than shout warrior

now, in PvE, you can take defender runes, which grant regen on block, aegis on healing skill (10s cd), and another 4k+ heal on block. (30s cd) this means that in PvE, a meditation honor guardian leaves warrior in the dust for self healing,

Defense Tactics Discipline

Settlers INSTEAD OF Cele. Take the long bow trait or shake it off trait, use rampage vs. burst comps and banner vs. condi comps.

It’s not hard, shoutbow is still viable. But that does NOT take priority over DPS Warrior. DPS Warrior is the first thing a comp needs if it’s gonna have a Warrior.

U can look at the healing numbers all u want but before suggesting changes about the about of healing u need to look at what the skills are actually doing. In my mind meditations tend to be better skills than warrior shouts

Shoutbow was a kitten stain on the warrior build compendium

Bring it back? lol

It doesn’t seem like it left to me. I played a shout build a couple of days ago and held off THREE players at point. To The Limit really helps, when traited it can heal roughly 10k hp!

I think people are overreacting to the spike in burst/condition builds that have popped up recently. If anything, shout warrior is not ‘popular’ anymore, but it’s STILL good though!

clerics shout Warr with mace/shield and hammer seems solid. five shouts + rampage. the sustain is good, and the stunlock is unreal. however I would really like the old Base shout heals back. I used to be able to run valk (crusaders now) and have a good hybrid bunk, but 1300 shout heals just don’t cut it.

“On My Mark” applying Revealed will help steer shouts to a more offensive role

You don’t.

Shoutbow is brainless as kitten. Good riddance.

Yesterday I looked at this thread, and it got my to try a shout warrior. It rocked. I was nearly unkillable, I could offer huge support to my teammates and increase their survivability. I didn’t use a bow, but I ran M/Sh, Sw/Wh. Perma regen with a banner slotted (90/120 seconds, but combat is almost never during the downtime), amazing condition cleanse, super tanky, great mobility. I never played the old build, but this new one has me thinking it may become the meta warrior build it was so strong. Its a support build, so I didn’t win every match (while pugging), but it felt godly, and when my teammates knew to rely on me, we destroyed any teamfights.

Kamikazi.5380:

You don’t.

Shoutbow is brainless as kitten. Good riddance.

some people like to play support without playing ele or bunk guard. you should thank us, we heal you and cleanse your condis.

Kamikazi.5380:

You don’t.

Shoutbow is brainless as kitten. Good riddance.

All shoutbow wars in fact care of all of your teammates to shoutheal and banner rez, while inflicting fair dmg as well. I guess brainless you meant is some warriors who uses shout mainly to damage. Please Don’t insult all shout warrior in that way. Shout warrior focuses on every aspects that could be happened randomly anywhere : dmging, healing, supporting, rezzing and etc : it worked like commander who cares everything. Shout Warrior is NOT brainless, but it is just that you just don’t know or misunderstood the mechanism of how shout warrior works. That’s it.