Guild Wars 2

Red Falcon.8257:

stefan could you please do some tests against this same Risen Corrupter with your armor?
I need numbers for 3.2k armor, 3.4k armor and 3.5k armor.

I already calculated that between 2400 and 2700 armor there is a 20% damage reduction difference, but only 10% between 2700 and 3000.
DRs almost halve the damage reduction. I need to know how bad DR is with further armor stacking.

PS: You can find the mob in Orr, just outside the northern outpost.

Vs a Risen Putrifier – it was the closest mob in a good spot where I could run in and out and test the damage I was taking. The numbers are the hits I was taking from regular damage, not special attacks and non-crits.

2351 Toughness – 3623 Armor
776 795 755 769 778 825 794 775 784 799

2260 Toughness – 3471 Armor
833 838 823 768 829 855 839 852 845 820

2170 Toughness – 3381 Armor
880 842 882 865 887 859 906 872 855 887

2102 Toughness – 3010 Armor
902 884 889 897 906 913 918 961 950 958 945

2069 Toughness – 2917 Armor
956 942 970 984 1010 987 958 932 1002 970

1968 Toughness – 2392 Armor
1149 1197 1122 1193 1223 1167 1223 1189 1206 1183

1861 Toughness – 2164 Armor
1351 1260 1231 1272 1250 1377 1245 1352 1227 1246 1296

1765 Toughness – 1947 Armor
1549 1640 1585 1565 1508 1439 1498 1450 1498 1466 1489 1527 14801492

If you’d like to do the math that would be great!

If only the warhorn would offer something on top of swiftness…

So 100 vitality gives roughly 1000 HP and with full toughness gear I have 20k HP. So for 100 vitality to be better than 100 toughness, 100 toughness would need to decrease the damage you’re taking by 5% or less. 5% of 20k HP is 1000.

This is obviously ignoring condition damage, just direct damage.

Without doing any actual math at 2260 toughness we’re looking at around 830 per hit and at 2351 around 780 per hit meaning a difference of around 50 damage per hit. That’s still around a 6% damage reduction per 90 toughness so in other words, even at that level, toughness is still better.

The problem is that damage reduction isn’t a proper design for large scale battles, it needs to be changed to more blocks, immunities and so forth, on shorter CDs at the cost of some damage. As previously mentioned proper traits in the Defense and Tactics tree for WvWvW, the current ones only apply to smaller battles. Blocking, immunities, in other words abilities that reduce the damage you’re taking by 100% is the better way and that’s why it works so well for other professions such mesmers, thieves and guardians. A 3 seconds block, stealth, immunity is always better than 6 seconds of 2300 toughness.

Now you’re starting to make sense, stefan. I’m all for more short damage immunities, as long as they also make you drop significant utility / mobility or DPS.

Ideas would be a shorter CD on Shield Stance, much shorter CD on Ignore Pain but you only do 50% damage during it, a mobility ability similar to the warrior’s heroic leap in WoW that would just get you out of the fight on a short CD, a short CD ability that perhaps would just double the amount of toughness you have for a few seconds and so forth. Abilities that would allow you to be in the battle for a few seconds, then you need to get out and recover, go back in and so forth, nothing that would just make you an unstoppable force. They would obviously need to be balanced properly so while you are taking these defensive traits or skills you are loosing some damage.

And obviously, you can’t get them all, you’d have to pick one or the other.

Bottom line is that with the current warrior design, by playing melee you just put yourself at a disadvantage in WvWvW. You don’t have enough survivability to make any sort of difference and you either spend more time on the sides or running back after dieing. Sure, you can take out a ranged weapon and do some damage, but if your traits are build for melee, you’re not giving it 100%.

Anyways, I’m sure I said enough.

Tom Gore.4035:

Now you’re starting to make sense, stefan. I’m all for more short damage immunities, as long as they also make you drop significant utility / mobility or DPS.

Sounds good….

They need to apply this line of thinking to thieves/mesmers first then.

Braxxus.2904:

Tom Gore.4035:

Now you’re starting to make sense, stefan. I’m all for more short damage immunities, as long as they also make you drop significant utility / mobility or DPS.

Sounds good….

They need to apply this line of thinking to thieves/mesmers first then.

then go make a thread about it, this one concerns the issue of poor melee warrior survivability in WvWvW and sticking to the topic is important if we’ll get anything constructive done

Bullcrap? How can you possibly have stats like that? You can’t. I’m running around in FULL Berserker’s, including weapons, with 20 in Arms and 30 in Discipline and 20 in Defense and the only number I compare to is your Crit Chance. I can understand pulling that kind of power and toughness if you’re heavily invested in Strength and Defense, and even having 50% crit if you’re counting Fury crit in your base stats, but there is no way in hell you have 210% crit damage. Stop lying.

A full Berserker kit with a glass damage build should have ~250% crit damage. He has 40% less than that, which basically accounts for having 0 crit damage in trait lines.

Full berserker exotics with heavy trait into a precision line will land around 50% crit chance, which is what he stated. The crit damage matches what he should have with 0 in a trait line. The power he is mis-typing: he probably has 3k attack, which is power + weapon damage. He’s probably running ~2100 power and 1k weapon damage. Note: this means no/low investment into a power trait line.

Note: he is talking PvE gear.

stefanplc

then go make a thread about it, this one concerns the issue of poor melee warrior survivability in WvWvW and sticking to the topic is important if we’ll get anything constructive done

My point, granted made in a sarcastic manner, was that compared to other classes especially if you were to drop any more ‘utility/mobility’ from warriors they would be a rock with 1 button.

If I am hearing this properly, I find it very difficult to understand your logic. People are complaining that they cant stand up against 2-3 players of equal skill level? Why would you? Any class should have a viable chance for 1v1 with any other class, that is called balance. But to expect to be able to compete against 2-3 other people at the same time, your asking for your char to be OP.

Braxxus.2904:

stefanplc

then go make a thread about it, this one concerns the issue of poor melee warrior survivability in WvWvW and sticking to the topic is important if we’ll get anything constructive done

My point, granted made in a sarcastic manner, was that compared to other classes especially if you were to drop any more ‘utility/mobility’ from warriors they would be a rock with 1 button.

I know, I didn’t mean to sound offensive (sorry if I was) but even if you just mention a little bit about other professions and hint at a possible nerf it’s bound that the thread will end up going other places. People are pretty sensitive when it comes to nerfing their professions.

If you read my suggestions above as the 30 point rewards for Defensive and Tactics, you’ll see that they’re nothing OP but versatile enough to make melee viable and interesting. After all, the large majority of warrior weapons are melee, even the bow arguably since it works much better at close range.

Asunder.2173:

If I am hearing this properly, I find it very difficult to understand your logic. People are complaining that they cant stand up against 2-3 players of equal skill level? Why would you? Any class should have a viable chance for 1v1 with any other class, that is called balance. But to expect to be able to compete against 2-3 other people at the same time, your asking for your char to be OP.

You’re not hearing this properly because you probably didn’t read all the posts / entire discussion. The problem is that melee warriors aren’t viable in WvWvW because they go down in seconds. The current surviving mechanics aim at reducing incoming damage which is fit for smaller fights but in a WvWvW environment it just doesn’t work.

The example of going vs 2-3 other people didn’t mean to fight them and win, it meant to be able to take their damage and so something meaningful before dieing, or having an opportunity to get out. When playing melee in WvWvW in a best case scenario you’ll only have 2-3 people focusing you. That’s why reducing the incoming damage doesn’t work so well so there’s a need for a different design that would work just as well vs 1 opponent or when more are focusing. The new design would be more based on blocking/immunities and so forth. These abilities would be offered at the top of the Defense and Tactics trees, which are our defensive trees so obviously our damage would be pretty low.

They would consist of short CDs that would help the warrior stop incoming damage allowing him to go in and out of the battle and actually be productive. Right now a warrior can go into battle, use Ignore Pain and then if he manages to make it out, he won’t be able to go back in for another minute and a half being forced to use a ranged weapon. However, to be able to go in as melee, he’s obviously built that way so he’ll be doing half a job with his ranged weapon. So what’s the point then of even going melee in the first place if all you can do is fight for 5-10 seconds and then you’re out for a minute and a half? And then, when playing a proper ranged build, you’ll never defeat in a 1v1 any other ranged professions and will have a really tough time vs just about everyone you encounter.

The thread aims at asking for new survivability abilities that would allow a warrior to participate as melee in WvWvW since that’s what most of his weapon choices are, very much the way guardians or thieves or mesmers are able to. Instead of mitigating damage through damage reduction, it needs to be short CDs that stop all damage.

Don’t get this the wrong way, I’m not asking for a warrior to be capable of going first in vs a zerg and survive. However if you’re smart enough to analyze the fight, find a good spot to attack from, something like the side or whatever, where the entire zerg won’t switch to you, only 2-3 people, you should be able to do something, that’s what I’m asking for, not run for your life the moment you get in as it is right now.

EasymodeX.4062:

Bullcrap? How can you possibly have stats like that? You can’t. I’m running around in FULL Berserker’s, including weapons, with 20 in Arms and 30 in Discipline and 20 in Defense and the only number I compare to is your Crit Chance. I can understand pulling that kind of power and toughness if you’re heavily invested in Strength and Defense, and even having 50% crit if you’re counting Fury crit in your base stats, but there is no way in hell you have 210% crit damage. Stop lying.

A full Berserker kit with a glass damage build should have ~250% crit damage. He has 40% less than that, which basically accounts for having 0 crit damage in trait lines.

Full berserker exotics with heavy trait into a precision line will land around 50% crit chance, which is what he stated. The crit damage matches what he should have with 0 in a trait line. The power he is mis-typing: he probably has 3k attack, which is power + weapon damage. He’s probably running ~2100 power and 1k weapon damage. Note: this means no/low investment into a power trait line.

Note: he is talking PvE gear.

Then I’m doing something completely wrong. I have full exotic berserker’s, Armor, trinkets, weapons, the jewels inside my trinkets, and Ruby orbs in my armor. That paired with 30 discipline and 20 arms and I still only come out with a base 51% crit chance and 104% crit damage.

How does one reach 250% crit damage? I just don’t see it.

I’ll just leave this here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBJ3lUCB5I0

In all fairness while impressive the video is very miss-leading. The warrior in the video is part of an organized party, decked in gear and constantly has regeneration and protection on himself while if you check the rest of the battle field it’s full of green arrows from sub lvl 80 enemies. If you check the video I posted Matale 7, I can take on 3 or 4 of those by myself and kill them all in a pretty tankish build and gear. Sub 80s are not that difficult, I don’t know how many of you saw Mazidra’s mesmer WvWvW video. As a mesmer Mazidra fights up to 5 or 6 opponents at the same time and wins, however they’re all sub 80s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=882KeHO9btw

Being lvl 80 and having the top gear makes a huuuge difference. If the warrior in the video was to fight equivalent opponents to his party, he’d be getting smashed pretty fast and I can tell you that from experience. If you take a look at the toughness math above you’ll see that going from 1750 toughness to 2350 you’re gaining around 50% damage reduction which is a pretty big deal and the same translate to other stats also.

Bottom line again, while it looks impressive it’s not an accurate depiction of warrior survivability in WvWvW.

@ Pachi : Yeah, without being babysited by a group, like in the video, that’s impossible.
If you look at the video, there’s at least a Mesmer and a Guardian with him. The mesmer use Moa (and other stuff ofc), while the Guardian use the Tome to heal the whole group. No wondering how he does that. So the warrior should be considered as a carry ? Quite odd in a mmo.

I think this thread very interesting. Because the warrior use mainly melee weapons, but his survival at melee is lower than the one of ranged classes (because the melee brings disadvantage, but I don’t see the advantage).

PanH.1957:

@ Pachi : Yeah, without being babysited by a group, like in the video, that’s impossible.
If you look at the video, there’s at least a Mesmer and a Guardian with him. The mesmer use Moa (and other stuff ofc), while the Guardian use the Tome to heal the whole group. No wondering how he does that. So the warrior should be considered as a carry ? Quite odd in a mmo.

I think this thread very interesting. Because the warrior use mainly melee weapons, but his survival at melee is lower than the one of ranged classes (because the melee brings disadvantage, but I don’t see the advantage).

exactly, there is no advantage to playing a melee at the moment, you’re simply much much more efficient as ranged and that’s a shame considering that most of our weapons are melee, arguably even the bow

Too many good points in this thread to let it sink , currently playing with 10,0,30,30,0 traits to be able to go in melee range but even with those you will be draged on the floor and end up dead in matter of seconds , when i run in 1vs1 pretty much becouse of the too much defensive stats can’t kill decent player , I did tryd your build stefanplc it looks okeis when you fight against small groups but as you pointed out in mass fight you will get melted down in matter of seconds no matter of what , i hope some dev will see this what you suggested.

The post has been in the top area of the first page for about 3 days, I’m sure it was read by some staff members, at least moderators… I don’t expect anything to happen too soon, but maybe one day… I at least tried (fingers crossed)

Been posting this build in a few places, but what do you think about this for survival? Also makes it beneficial to stay closer to your group members. Totally different playstyle, and I’m not heavy into WvWvW yet.. But I think this is what I’ll be using. Maybe I’ll get destroyed… I dunno.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIMQNApeUncOEFcyDOPgDZAA9ALwuyU4n0DyQLNA;T8AZTSmUNpYiKLTWissZ5ySm1ijxGHHeOMbA

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Kendu Kuzal.3985:

Been posting this build in a few places, but what do you think about this for survival? Also makes it beneficial to stay closer to your group members. Totally different playstyle, and I’m not heavy into WvWvW yet.. But I think this is what I’ll be using. Maybe I’ll get destroyed… I dunno.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIMQNApeUncOEFcyDOPgDZAA9ALwuyU4n0DyQLNA;T8AZTSmUNpYiKLTWissZ5ySm1ijxGHHeOMbA

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It looks pretty durable but I’d swap the rifle for a sword/warhorn so you can get away when things get rough. If you’re in a situation where you need to use a ranged weapon such as attacking a keep you can always switch at that time to it. You might want to check out the Healing Signet too, paired with the Adrenal Health and any regen buff you might get you’ll have some strong ticks on you.

This is something that I’ve been looking into myself but with 10 points in Discipline for lower Signet CD so I can keep fury up more often. I’m also interested in a toughness/power gear set where I’d be giving up precision either for vitality or + healing, not sure yet. With fury and a little bit from gear I would be happy with a 30%-35% crit chance. I was also planning on going with chance on crit to steal life and next attack grants life on weapon swap.

Bytor.3826:

Red Falcon.8257:

I use full zerker setup with Knight’s weapon and 30def, running around with 2800 armor, 3k pow, 50% crit, and 210% crit dmg.

Bullcrap? How can you possibly have stats like that? You can’t. I’m running around in FULL Berserker’s, including weapons, with 20 in Arms and 30 in Discipline and 20 in Defense and the only number I compare to is your Crit Chance. I can understand pulling that kind of power and toughness if you’re heavily invested in Strength and Defense, and even having 50% crit if you’re counting Fury crit in your base stats, but there is no way in hell you have 210% crit damage. Stop lying.

Maybe using the bugged Divinity Runes … that has now been fixed.

now that I think about it, toughness/precision with either vitality or + healing might be even better because more crits means more heals from the sigils

stefanplc.5234:

Kendu Kuzal.3985:

Been posting this build in a few places, but what do you think about this for survival? Also makes it beneficial to stay closer to your group members. Totally different playstyle, and I’m not heavy into WvWvW yet.. But I think this is what I’ll be using. Maybe I’ll get destroyed… I dunno.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIMQNApeUncOEFcyDOPgDZAA9ALwuyU4n0DyQLNA;T8AZTSmUNpYiKLTWissZ5ySm1ijxGHHeOMbA

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It looks pretty durable but I’d swap the rifle for a sword/warhorn so you can get away when things get rough. If you’re in a situation where you need to use a ranged weapon such as attacking a keep you can always switch at that time to it. You might want to check out the Healing Signet too, paired with the Adrenal Health and any regen buff you might get you’ll have some strong ticks on you.

This is something that I’ve been looking into myself but with 10 points in Discipline for lower Signet CD so I can keep fury up more often. I’m also interested in a toughness/power gear set where I’d be giving up precision either for vitality or + healing, not sure yet. With fury and a little bit from gear I would be happy with a 30%-35% crit chance. I was also planning on going with chance on crit to steal life and next attack grants life on weapon swap.

I had healing signet on too but figured it wouldn’t protect me as well from burst damage. If I have healing surge I can recover a lot of health, plus I’ll be healing off all my shouts. I suppose there are pros and cons to both methods.

I was hesitant about the rifle too. The two big factors I took into consideration were the sheer power of the Kill shot with a 100% critical on weapon switch, and also the ranged cripple. I think your idea of switching from that to sword/warhorn based on situation is a good idea as well.

stefanplc.5234:

In all fairness while impressive the video is very miss-leading. The warrior in the video is part of an organized party, decked in gear and constantly has regeneration and protection on himself while if you check the rest of the battle field it’s full of green arrows from sub lvl 80 enemies. If you check the video I posted Matale 7, I can take on 3 or 4 of those by myself and kill them all in a pretty tankish build and gear. Sub 80s are not that difficult, I don’t know how many of you saw Mazidra’s mesmer WvWvW video. As a mesmer Mazidra fights up to 5 or 6 opponents at the same time and wins, however they’re all sub 80s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=882KeHO9btw

Being lvl 80 and having the top gear makes a huuuge difference. If the warrior in the video was to fight equivalent opponents to his party, he’d be getting smashed pretty fast and I can tell you that from experience. If you take a look at the toughness math above you’ll see that going from 1750 toughness to 2350 you’re gaining around 50% damage reduction which is a pretty big deal and the same translate to other stats also.

Bottom line again, while it looks impressive it’s not an accurate depiction of warrior survivability in WvWvW.

I think the video proves a very valid point that another poster in the beginning of the thread mentioned to you. You as well as PanH refuted a very nice video and Proof that if you want to succeed in any real way in melee for WvWvW you need a group. You can’t do it alone no matter which way you want to put it.

I understand your complaints. Some ranged classes can do very well at ranged, and still do very well in melee range while still using their ranged weapons. This is something that needs to be looked at for sure, but ranged supports range in this game. If you have a TON of ranged characters firing off arrows/projectiles/spells, and you run in as the ONLY melee then, yes, you will most likely melt into nothing just like in a real world battlefield application. Even if, in the real world, there existed magic in the way it exists in GW2 you would be obliterated in that scenario.

If you have a wall of melee, guardians and warriors, who are not afraid to push into the enemy lines then you would have a much better result. You would get protection, heals and regeneration from warrior shouts, guardian rolls, guardian passives, guardian heals, etc. You would also take less focus fire because now tab targetting is split between 5 or more people rather than 1 or 2. Ranged have synergy with each other in WvWvW because they all stay at range. If you want melee to have syngery and be affective in the battlefield then you need a bunch of melee to go into the front. That would require you to form groups of melee and groups of range and be organized.

I don’t think we NEED to be able to survive for a long period of time versus 5 people with what we have. We can already be immune for around 10-15 secs, thats more than enough time for other melee to come into the front and take the pressure off of you. I don’t think we should be able to run into a storm of projectiles and not die after some time. If we get a protection buff or regen or a lot of AoE heals from everyone around us, then our defense scales very well. Ranged may need toning down, who knows. What I do know is that the video showed what is realistically the best way to play melee range which is as a group pushing through the enemy line.

He didn’t push to the front and stay at the front. He pushed through with the entire team and basically split the entire enemy zerg in half, who by then tab targetted to someone closer to them because he already ran passed the entire zerg immune to all damage. That is great use of tactics and he played the tank roll perfectly. You split the zerg and stay grouped so all AoE heals/buffs hit your team, while all of their aoe buffs become scattered and split. It’s why it worked.

You can be 1 person in a disorganized zerg and die/fend for yourself or you can be 1 unit of organized zerg and win. That is WvWvW and I don’t think skill changes should be required unless it destroys balance completely. Our defensive traits are ok, not AMAZING like guardians, but they are ok and work when used in the correct situations. I would like amazing, but in fantasy, there are a lot more soldiers on the battlefield than there are other classes, and soldiers (warriors) are going to die far more often so I can live with Ok.

stefanplc.5234:

In all fairness while impressive the video is very miss-leading. The warrior in the video is part of an organized party, decked in gear and constantly has regeneration and protection on himself while if you check the rest of the battle field it’s full of green arrows from sub lvl 80 enemies. If you check the video I posted Matale 7, I can take on 3 or 4 of those by myself and kill them all in a pretty tankish build and gear. Sub 80s are not that difficult, I don’t know how many of you saw Mazidra’s mesmer WvWvW video. As a mesmer Mazidra fights up to 5 or 6 opponents at the same time and wins, however they’re all sub 80s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=882KeHO9btw

Being lvl 80 and having the top gear makes a huuuge difference. If the warrior in the video was to fight equivalent opponents to his party, he’d be getting smashed pretty fast and I can tell you that from experience. If you take a look at the toughness math above you’ll see that going from 1750 toughness to 2350 you’re gaining around 50% damage reduction which is a pretty big deal and the same translate to other stats also.

Bottom line again, while it looks impressive it’s not an accurate depiction of warrior survivability in WvWvW.

Also, video showed a reality that exists in the zerg. Generally, better geared people are up front fighting. They understand that they can take more hits and dish out more damage trying to get as many tags as possible to get as much experience or points as possible. People in the back of a zerg or hovering in the middle probably don’t have great gear, aren’t lvl 80, and understand through experience that if they are in the front they will get roflstomped. People don’t like dying so they act and move in ways that prolong their life as well as in a way that they feel like they contributed.

When he pushed through the zerg, he probably went through a wall of better geared people, but as he got to the back you start seeing enemies who are less geared, and probably not max level. I doubt everyone he fought was inferior to him. After the zerg was split it was basically a free for all where everyone in the enemy team was scattered so you see mixtures of lower lvls and higher lvls.

That’s just my opinion.

I specifically mentioned that I don’t expect to go first into a zerg and hope to do something meaningful. I explained a scenario where in a balanced 10 vs 10 fight, I would try and come through the side or a spot that’s more appropriate where I wouldn’t have the entire zerg switch to me but only 2 or 3 people. I would expect to be able to do something meaningful by approaching a strategy like that. If I was to play a thief or a mesmer I could probably go in, score a kill and then get out just fine. If I was a guardian I could probably hold my ground versus them, without actually killing any of them for quite some time and give my group an advantage by keeping 3 enemies busy. If I do the same thing as a warrior and go vs 2-3 opponents that are of equivalent gear and skill I just die within the first 10 seconds right after Ignore Pain and Shield Stance ends. If I do however happen to make it out I can’t go back in for another 1.5 minutes and I didn’t really accomplish anything for the duration that I was there.

My point is that the current warrior defense design isn’t meant for large fights, it’s designed for smaller fights where it performs well such as in sPvP where most of the time you see a 2v2 or a 3v3. Our defense is based on mostly reducing the % of damage we take which isn’t that high so we’re not an unstoppable force in a 1v1. This system however fails when you have 2 or 3 enemies attacking you.

To be able to actually play melee right now in WvWvW you have to be part of a pretty decent team that you play with very often making it available only to “hardcore players”. Other professions don’t need to do that and they can perform our role much better since they don’t need babysitting. If I don’t have 20 hours per week to dish into WvWvW then I guess Rifle/Bow it is for me but then again, other ranged professions are much better at range than I am also.

While the melee warrior performs very well in sPvP with the current design and traits, I feel that there should be new options available that would be aimed at WvWvW. While healing shouts does really well in a 2v2 or 3v3 or dungeons, we could have a new shout as the 30 pts Tactics reward that doubles your toughness for x seconds but reduces your damage by x% and so forth. Instead of reducing the damage you take by a certain percentage or healing you for small amounts which are only significant in small fights, lets have a few options for larger fights also. A short CD ability that heals you for the amount of damage you take in the next 3-4 seconds could be another idea.

I talked about this for so long I’m starting to lose my train of thoughts, sorry lol.

stefanplc.5234:

I specifically mentioned that I don’t expect to go first into a zerg and hope to do something meaningful. I explained a scenario where in a balanced 10 vs 10 fight, I would try and come through the side or a spot that’s more appropriate where I wouldn’t have the entire zerg switch to me but only 2 or 3 people. I would expect to be able to do something meaningful by approaching a strategy like that. If I was to play a thief or a mesmer I could probably go in, score a kill and then get out just fine. If I was a guardian I could probably hold my ground versus them, without actually killing any of them for quite some time and give my group an advantage by keeping 3 enemies busy. If I do the same thing as a warrior and go vs 2-3 opponents that are of equivalent gear and skill I just die within the first 10 seconds right after Ignore Pain and Shield Stance ends. If I do however happen to make it out I can’t go back in for another 1.5 minutes and I didn’t really accomplish anything for the duration that I was there.

My point is that the current warrior defense design isn’t meant for large fights, it’s designed for smaller fights where it performs well such as in sPvP where most of the time you see a 2v2 or a 3v3. Our defense is based on mostly reducing the % of damage we take which isn’t that high so we’re not an unstoppable force in a 1v1. This system however fails when you have 2 or 3 enemies attacking you.

To be able to actually play melee right now in WvWvW you have to be part of a pretty decent team that you play with very often making it available only to “hardcore players”. Other professions don’t need to do that and they can perform our role much better since they don’t need babysitting. If I don’t have 20 hours per week to dish into WvWvW then I guess Rifle/Bow it is for me but then again, other ranged professions are much better at range than I am also.

While the melee warrior performs very well in sPvP with the current design and traits, I feel that there should be new options available that would be aimed at WvWvW. While healing shouts does really well in a 2v2 or 3v3 or dungeons, we could have a new shout as the 30 pts Tactics reward that doubles your toughness for x seconds but reduces your damage by x% and so forth. Instead of reducing the damage you take by a certain percentage or healing you for small amounts which are only significant in small fights, lets have a few options for larger fights also. A short CD ability that heals you for the amount of damage you take in the next 3-4 seconds could be another idea.

I talked about this for so long I’m starting to lose my train of thoughts, sorry lol.

The problem is that in a pure defensive build you wouldn’t be doing anything meaningful by going into the side and attacking 2 or 3 people. If you wanted to do something meaningful in that aspect, going in as a glass cannon HB warrior, blowing your CD’s and downing 1 or 2 people then weapon swapping to shield stance and running away would be a better option. going the full defensive spec is so that you can be a sponge for a while while you move through the zerg. You aren’t meant to sponge damage for a long period of time.

Other classes can, Thieves can avoid it and dish out tons of damage but they are slowly seeing nerfs. Mesmers will probably get a nerf bat soon enough as well. Warriors, functioning along the full spectrum of the game, in all aspects, are ok as is in my opinion

Or sponge damage and provide boons, condition removal and heals to those around you?

this is turning into a conversation that’s kind of beating it around the bush… i want to play melee in WvWvW and I cant due to the way the system is designed.. i can play melee without a problem in sPvP because the fights are smaller and the warrior defense mechanism is appropriate for that… i don’t think the current system which relies mostly on reducing a % of the damage you take works however in WvWvW and I feel that it should offer new traits that are particularly more suitable for this activity

300 vitality and being able to heal with my shouts for roughly 5-6k every 20 seconds is great for small fights but it makes no difference in WvWvW
300 toughness and some extra healing paired with a little extra toughness and slightly shorter CDs on defense abilities are great for small fights, because you take fewer hits during the time you wait for the CD to come back… they don’t make a difference in WvWvW because you’ll be dead before the CD comes back

i want other options for defense traits that are more WvWvW friendly.. if I’m to kitten my damage to be more durable in WvWvW make it worth the investment… right now you might as well go full glass cannon, you wont notice a difference in survivability.. what’s +/-2 seconds before you die

I gave a few examples above through out the posts and I’ll give them again
- 1 second of blocking after you dodge.. should have the same effect if you’re fighting 1 person or are in WvWvW.. as opposed to having you block the next incoming attack after you dodge which is great in small fights but makes no difference in large fights
- change the mace blocking ability to work like shield stance, blocking all attacks for a period of time and not just the next attack since that doesn’t make a difference in WvWvW
- you are instantly healed for the damage you take in the next 3 seconds and you can’t die while you still have this buff on a short CD.. so people don’t just focus you down like it’s nothing
- ignore pain CD is now 30 seconds but you do 50% less damage during it

and so forth.. the type of defensive abilities that scale to larger fights and aren’t appropriate just for 1v1s or 2v2s… the current defensive system works only during small fights and does not scale to larger fights the way the thieves and mesmer vanish or clones do or guardian blocks

I want to play melee, the majority of the warrior weapons are melee and I can’t because I die in seconds. I don’t want to be forced to a rifle or bow if I want to be valuable.

stefanplc.5234:

this is turning into a conversation that’s kind of beating it around the bush… i want to play melee in WvWvW and I cant due to the way the system is designed.. i can play melee without a problem in sPvP because the fights are smaller and the warrior defense mechanism is appropriate for that… i don’t think the current system which relies mostly on reducing a % of the damage you take works however in WvWvW and I feel that it should offer new traits that are particularly more suitable for this activity

300 vitality and being able to heal with my shouts for roughly 5-6k every 20 seconds is great for small fights but it makes no difference in WvWvW
300 toughness and some extra healing paired with a little extra toughness and slightly shorter CDs on defense abilities are great for small fights, because you take fewer hits during the time you wait for the CD to come back… they don’t make a difference in WvWvW because you’ll be dead before the CD comes back

i want other options for defense traits that are more WvWvW friendly.. if I’m to kitten my damage to be more durable in WvWvW make it worth the investment… right now you might as well go full glass cannon, you wont notice a difference in survivability.. what’s +/-2 seconds before you die

I gave a few examples above through out the posts and I’ll give them again
- 1 second of blocking after you dodge.. should have the same effect if you’re fighting 1 person or are in WvWvW.. as opposed to having you block the next incoming attack after you dodge which is great in small fights but makes no difference in large fights
- change the mace blocking ability to work like shield stance, blocking all attacks for a period of time and not just the next attack since that doesn’t make a difference in WvWvW
- you are instantly healed for the damage you take in the next 3 seconds and you can’t die while you still have this buff on a short CD.. so people don’t just focus you down like it’s nothing
- ignore pain CD is now 30 seconds but you do 50% less damage during it

and so forth.. the type of defensive abilities that scale to larger fights and aren’t appropriate just for 1v1s or 2v2s… the current defensive system works only during small fights and does not scale to larger fights the way the thieves and mesmer vanish or clones do or guardian blocks

I want to play melee, the majority of the warrior weapons are melee and I can’t because I die in seconds. I don’t want to be forced to a rifle or bow if I want to be valuable.

If that is what you truly believe then it seems that we may have to agree to disagree. This topic has been part of the forums for a very long time. When the betas were out Anet used gw2guru forums to get feedback on the gameplay. It was seen in abundance there too. Anet doesn’t seem to agree, at least for right now, that there is an issue. Maybe they will change their minds, maybe nerfs to other classes will provide enough benefits to make it work for us, maybe they may tweak traits or change them for us, but if not then you may need to find a work around until that time if it even happens.

As I said, I think we are Ok. I would love to have Amazing capabilities. Hell, Great capabilities in the melee department in Zerg vs Zerg would be cool too. But I’m fine with just Ok. Range can be looked at, tweaked even, or melee could be buffed and I would be cool with it too.

Kendu Kuzal.3985:

Or sponge damage and provide boons, condition removal and heals to those around you?

That would not require him to attack from the sides to flank enemies and take less damage. He would be better off nearer the middle and getting the main pack heals and buffs, stepping forward to get tab targetted and stepping back to have someone else tab targetted if that were the case.

well the changes to abilities aren’t exactly something game breaking or new… making the mace similar to shield stance only makes the ability so it scales properly vs multiple opponents… getting healed for the damage you take for 3 seconds is an option to healing shouts for WvWvW… healing shouts would work better in smaller fights where an ability like that would be better for large scale fights and so forth… im not asking anything new, im asking for defensive abilities to scale properly which would make us fine, just as we are in sPvP and other small encounters

You must pick your battles carefully if you want to melee in WvW. And you will die even if you are careful. It is the price we pay for glory! Run with a party of 5 of all melee so you go in at the same time. Make sure the rest of your guild is behind you and be that spearhead to smash apart the zerg!

I’m currently running with hammer/sword+horn build. 10/0/30/30/0. My equipment are mixed basically of knight+soldier. With steak, I’m sitting at around 3k attack, 35%(55% with fury) crit, 3k armor, 30k hp without orb bonuses. At siege I either get on a siege engine or I pull out my longbow over the sword+horn.

Healing Surge, Adrenal Health, healing Shouts gives me about 15k health total every 30 seconds.

I almost never die due to ranged weaponry. It is almost always getting caught out of position, invisible mobs and/or didn’t pull back with rest of my team. And 95% its a CC that stopped me from getting away and gang kitten by the rest.

I do not do the same damage as say 100B, but let me tell you people pay attention when they see the hammers. the AoE hammer stun is frightening when the enemy mob is bearing down on you. And 2.5k swings 5k crits are not trivial.

If enemy zerg thins and skirmish ensues switch back to horn and fall out for 10 seconds. It gets the focus off you. Then jump back in you go with hammer. If enemy zerg routs switch to sword+horn for the chase and cripples. Let your guild does the killing you focus on slowing them down one by one.

You will not win any 1v1 against a dueling spec thief, mes, or guardians with any decent playing abilities. But noone else can Earthshake, staggering blow and Fear me to break apart that zerg.

A really interesting approach was taken in WoW: They added talents where for every hit you took, the CD on a defensive ability went down by x seconds. A similar effect could be done to Shield Stance and Ignore Pain as a 30 points in Defense trait option. This is another mechanism that could scale pretty well and have the same effect in small and large battles making melee a little more viable in WvWvW.

krakenstar.1674:

You must pick your battles carefully if you want to melee in WvW. And you will die even if you are careful. It is the price we pay for glory! Run with a party of 5 of all melee so you go in at the same time. Make sure the rest of your guild is behind you and be that spearhead to smash apart the zerg!

I’m currently running with hammer/sword+horn build. 10/0/30/30/0. My equipment are mixed basically of knight+soldier. With steak, I’m sitting at around 3k attack, 35%(55% with fury) crit, 3k armor, 30k hp without orb bonuses. At siege I either get on a siege engine or I pull out my longbow over the sword+horn.

Healing Surge, Adrenal Health, healing Shouts gives me about 15k health total every 30 seconds.

I almost never die due to ranged weaponry. It is almost always getting caught out of position, invisible mobs and/or didn’t pull back with rest of my team. And 95% its a CC that stopped me from getting away and gang kitten by the rest.

I do not do the same damage as say 100B, but let me tell you people pay attention when they see the hammers. the AoE hammer stun is frightening when the enemy mob is bearing down on you. And 2.5k swings 5k crits are not trivial.

If enemy zerg thins and skirmish ensues switch back to horn and fall out for 10 seconds. It gets the focus off you. Then jump back in you go with hammer. If enemy zerg routs switch to sword+horn for the chase and cripples. Let your guild does the killing you focus on slowing them down one by one.

You will not win any 1v1 against a dueling spec thief, mes, or guardians with any decent playing abilities. But noone else can Earthshake, staggering blow and Fear me to break apart that zerg.

It’s very similar to what I do with my Hammer warrior in WvWvW, not sure if you saw Matale 7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hCCpq7e624 there’s also additional raw footage in 7-2

Melee has its advantages, but also has its disadvantages. If you don’t like the disadvantages, don’t expect the game to change to meet your needs. Every class has a melee and range option. I use 4 different weapons in WvW. I use greatsword, sword/warhorn or sword/shield, longbow, and rifle. Depending on what is happening and what I want to do I switch weapons, traits, and utility skills. For example, if I am solo roaming, I want sword/warhorn and rifle. I switch me traits to 1 second immobilize and my warhorn to cure condition. If I am at a keep, I switch to longbow and sword/shield. I switch my traits to longer longbow range and more damage on fire. I will also switch to reflect with shield. If I am running supplies, I switch to sword/warhorn and greatsword. I guess what I am trying to say is you are being a square trying to get into a round hole by only playing one way. Be flexible.

as with Ljiona I’m the same – along with my hammer, sword, horn and longbow, I also carry exotic shield, axe, mace, and rifle. Our single biggest obvious advantage is that we have so many options available… so I carry them just in case.

I have seen Matale 7 I enjoyed the video. 7.2 though, especially at the end is telling. This build simply isn’t made for dueling. The fuller the battle the more this build shines. My 3 shouts FGJ, Shake it off, fear me all remove conditions and heals those around me, to the tune of 5k heal and 4 condition removal!! That’s as good as most specs! That along side the horn with converts 2 condition to boon, throws weakness remove immobalize/freeze/slow and give swiftness!

I swap my elite between Signet of Rage and Battlestandard. battlestandard for smaller teams 5-15. The ability to be able to insta rally 2-3 people is very powerful in small teams and can turn the tide of battle. In smaller engagements I save my hammer4 for anyone attempting to stomp my down mates.

I rewatched your 7.2 stefan, and here’s my ideas: run with a crew – shouts are only cost effective in a team. There are much better solo builds. Hammer just isn’t good without a team to focus whose you stun. And the pugs are focused on their own crap. Your HP is also very low, can I ask you what your gear is?

I believe a warrior is a good class to lead. They are tough, VISIBLE, and with a hammer, can act as a focal point for zerg’s damage as you lay down a 3 sec stun. Unfortunately, if you don’t run with 5 melees, the entire enemy line up will focus on just you.. which spells death for even the toughest mofo. I also find the shield lacking in WvW. most other classes can bunker better than the warrior. warhorn though, is awesome sauce to me, and those around me.

@Ljiona : there’s melee and melee. Lots of classes got melee weapons, but most of them are in fact ranged, even if it’s a shorter range. There’s 3 classes that are really melee : guardian, thief and warrior. And they both have help to get in contact. In fact, they’re some sort of “ranged” that move out and in melee range. The warrior actually has to be near the target to hit it.

And personally, I don’t see the advantage of melee weapon. Being able to hit 3 people at the same time with the Chain attack ? That’s all ?

Its a feel thing for me, I like to get up close and personal and go medieval on some kittens. Pew pew is neat, and I do use bow/rifle as the situation calls.. but its personal preference I think.

Red Falcon.8257:

I use full zerker setup with Knight’s weapon and 30def, running around with 2800 armor, 3k pow, 50% crit, and 210% crit dmg.

You can get all those stats from running a full zerk with knight’s weapon? Dayum, wish I knew that before I spent my money.

you guys wanna make warriors viable in wvw just like a knight was an important soldier in a battlefield 1000 years ago in middle age?
tell me who could fight a heavy armored knight with a great sword in both hands?
is this game: a dude with 2 knives kill this warrior in 2 seconds, a dude with cotton armor could have enough toughness to make a long fight and even win, a dude with a bow raises roots from the ground and spam arrows in his chest, another dude gets invisible in the middle of a battlefield (just like houdini in front of a crowd).
also, in real word theres something called friendly fire, which is completely nonexistent in this game.

cmon, this game is pretty far from making wvw viable for melee gameplay.
stefanplc is right. if we don’t want to change the other professions, we need to improve the defense skills of the warrior.
i wouldn’t even change the endure pain cool down. my suggestion is: make shield stance only block attacks in front, none from behind, let it have 0 (zero) cool down, makes you walk slower and be activated during button pressing (as long as you shield 5 is pressed, you are blocking attacks in your front, that’s all). (maybe give it a progressive cool down, where the more you use, the longer you will need to wait).
this will let warriors help to push their teams forward and stay in the front, the place a heavy armored melee should be. (this could also be extended to guardians)

I don’t think warrior defensive abilities need an increase – warriors just need another mobility option – like a single target pull.

The root of the issue in GW2 is Warriors do not have the mobility and/or mass damage avoidance of the other classes that do melee (especially thief with stealth, guardian with teleport to target but extends to other classes as well).

A warrior has a few “invincible” abilities like Shield Block and Endure Pain but those are on a very short duration and very long cooldown compared to the heat taken in a WvW battle that tends to force a warrior to only use those abilities in reactive/defensive circumstances – as stated prior in examples given in this very thread.

The real problem is twofold: if you blow your “invincible” abilities just to get to the enemy, you are basically at a disadvantage (you now take roughly the same damage as your enemy takes but are in melee range/kitable/enemy has their own abilities to move away) and with Rush (Greatsword) and Savage Leap (Sword) and Sprint (Banner) bugged by frequently missing the intended target, there is no reliable means to close distance quickly to a target without fear of overshooting and running into more enemies which leads to insta-death.

Warriors need a pull ability (weapon or utility)…a tool to take one enemy from the crowd of enemies to add a mobility option to melee warriors that they desperately need. The distance created by a pull is in effect the same as range without creating a complete restructure of defensive talents.

Other MMOs with PvP follow a similar mechanic using a melee-based pull for a reason.

Running into a zerg as a melee in any pug PvP game format is failure.

You either:

- Flank hard and deep
- Hit and run
- Go find small fights
- Group up with a highly coordinated melee charge strategy
- Stop playing melee in pug large-scale WvW

Those are your only options. It has zero to do with a Warrior’s weapons, traits, spec.