Guild Wars 2

really like who thought this is a good idea who tests this. so banners/ range or a shout healing build is what anet idea of a warrior is not some one that fights in melee i mean thats what ive gathered from anets balances so far. as it stands right now warrior is one of the least mobile class in the game and anet team thinks that banners the least mobile skills in the game needs a buff. idk the way i see it is this is counter productive since war is mainly a melee class which is good at melee but has one issue most classes and builds can outrun a war making his melee pointless . you say that any class can go dps/support/control yet war have no control because we cant get into and stay in melee. we have little damage unless we use gun again because we get out run even if we do get in close its not for long. we do have alot of support but thats not a war goal if i wanted support and a heavy melee i would have rolled a guard.

you said in a state of pvp a fue months ago that you were not happy with war so. i guess my question is what would make you think that buffing the same 2 things you have been buffing since launch banners and bows would fix the war cause it doesnt there is more to be worked on.

Are you crazy? Warrior has plenty of gap closers, immobilisers and CC. A good warrior doesn’t need to stay in range for long to make their point. What they lack is escapes, after you’ve done GS 3 and 5 you better hope swiftness can keep you ahead.

Dolan.3071:

What they lack is escapes

We totally don’t.
The only class that can chase me is Thief, everyone else sits well behind including D/D Eles.
We have Rush, Savage leap, Bull, WA; as long as you save 2 of these for escape, you can get away safely.
If you’re slowed just pop Charge right before leaping away.

What we lack is:
- Arcing Slice being simply “worth using”
- downed skills on par with other classes (or other classes like Eles get theirs nerfed)
- carriable banners
- proper shout healing (give protection 3s or something, it currently sucks terribly)
- Strength/Arms/Disc Grandmasters worth using
- Brawn BWE knee-jerk nerf fixed
- Evis BWE knee-jerk nerf fixed
- Healing signet / adrenal health improvements for PvE

Sadly the guys in the video said they’re scared that Warriors becomes an killing machine in PvP (hahahaha, sorry Anet but really? We’re the least wanted in tPvP), so expect all these fixes to come over the course of one year.
Yet they keep awfully unbalanced specs like D/D Eles.

Reminds me of GW1 really, some super-specs favored (55/SF) and everything else abandoned into stagnation.

Dolan.3071:

Are you crazy? Warrior has plenty of gap closers, immobilisers and CC. A good warrior doesn’t need to stay in range for long to make their point. What they lack is escapes, after you’ve done GS 3 and 5 you better hope swiftness can keep you ahead.

War cannot stay on mobile target, and this is first issue. “Oh, hallo mr.Warrior, you wanna burst me? Lol sorry, i just did 1 dodge and screwed you, love your predictable cooldowns.” 100b and hammer are pure joke against any minimally skilled opponent. Second issue is lack of good survival mechanic. No protection, extreme vulnerability to slows, lack of big/sustained heals, lack of vigor.

I feel like I’m playing in slow motion when I dust off my warrior the skills are so slow and pathetic.

Mobile warrior problems? Counter with:

• Chill
• Cripple
• Immoblize
• Daze
• Stun
• Knockdown
• Knockback
• Fear
• Wards
• Stealth
• Clones (body blocks and de-targets)
• Swiftness
• Dodge roll once

Saved your mobility for running? Better start now while there’s still health in your bar…

@ Red Falcon. IMO saving those valuable skills for escapes is the reason you need to escape in the first place. Rush is a poor gap closer and should be escape only, however bulls charge and WA are how you stay on top of them, bolas or other physicals to bog them down some more. Don’t get me wrong it could be better, but warrior isn’t as underpowered as everyone thinks.

Dolan.3071:

@ Red Falcon. IMO saving those valuable skills for escapes is the reason you need to escape in the first place. Rush is a poor gap closer and should be escape only, however bulls charge and WA are how you stay on top of them, bolas or other physicals to bog them down some more. Don’t get me wrong it could be better, but warrior isn’t as underpowered as everyone thinks.

Looks like someone have 3 weapon sets and 5-6 slots on utilities panel.

Rednik.3809:

Dolan.3071:

@ Red Falcon. IMO saving those valuable skills for escapes is the reason you need to escape in the first place. Rush is a poor gap closer and should be escape only, however bulls charge and WA are how you stay on top of them, bolas or other physicals to bog them down some more. Don’t get me wrong it could be better, but warrior isn’t as underpowered as everyone thinks.

Looks like someone have 3 weapon sets and 5-6 slots on utilities panel.

I’ve listed the Greatsword and two utilities, you sure you play warrior?

Dolan.3071:

I’ve listed the Greatsword and two utilities, you sure you play warrior?

Since when each warrior 24/7 has a GS and these 2 utilities in all builds?

Pretty much 99% of warriors in pvp use a GS, BC and/or bolas with frenzy and balanced stance/endure pain/signet of stamina.

Psybunny.8906:

Pretty much 99% of warriors in pvp use a GS, BC and/or bolas with frenzy and balanced stance/endure pain/signet of stamina.

In sPvP, yes. But sPvP is not the only PvP option.

Rednik.3809:

Psybunny.8906:

Pretty much 99% of warriors in pvp use a GS, BC and/or bolas with frenzy and balanced stance/endure pain/signet of stamina.

In sPvP, yes. But sPvP is not the only PvP option.

It’s the only one where individual pvp balance matters.

It’s the only one where individual pvp balance matters.

no

Well wubwub isn’t a closed and a limited setting, it’s filled with numerous factors like food/lvl&gear inconsistency and ofc the increased amount of min-maxing you can do with PvE stats, so individual balancing between professions from wubwub point of view is not wise. Also due to the higher number of players in the average fight will reduce the effect of individual skills and more of a combined form of a huge blob that differs from the other blob based mostly on the profession setup. Individual builds have little effect on that. It’s pretty much impossible to do individual balance based on wubwub, certainly not wise and pretty much not important. Wubwub is won with numbers and huge group tactics not individual builds/balance.

or

tl;dr

It’s the only one where individual pvp balance matters.

yes

And ofc WvW filled with giant zergballs, no roaming parties, camp raiders, ninja-cap teams, lone skirmishers, scouts… Looks like you seen high-end WvW only on forums and youtube.

High-end WvW usually consists of organized guildgroups that run around 15-30 member parties, organize their attacks and movement with other guildgroups, use superior siege, smart movement, false baiting and mostly groupbuff->portal/stealthbombs->meleetrain iniatators followed by combofield spam and casters, hit and run group tactics on a high scale play. I fail to see how individual 1v1 balance between professions plays a role in a group build?

Do you think a group filled with for example mesmers and thieves who are excellent duelists don’t get rolled by a balanced group that consists of all of the above?

Should we balance around which professions can kill npcs/dolayks faster, how someone who is upleveled gets oneshotted by a fullzerker 25/30/0/0/15 thief in wvwvw or balance around a closed setting where gear is equal, there are no additional factors like random buffs, statoption and extreme min-maxing is regulated due to the amulet choices and professions can be evaluated both in a balanced 1v1 setting and equally numbered teamfight setting where there is no player difference in opposite sides?

Large guild groups are here for assaults, defense and zerg-crushing. No one uses them to control supply routes, scouting, intercepting enemy camp raiders ant so on. And without competent small groups you efforts on map is effectively halved. I can show you my old BT screenshots, then we achieved 100% of WvW control in T2 and 99% (minus 1-2 supply camps on all 4 maps) in T1(ye, against VZ 24/7 players). Organization and right ppl in right builds means alot.

I still fail to see how server tactics is any way related to cross-profession balance in individual level. Your argument is purely related to groupbuilds and high scale tactics.

Are you suggesting that we should balance cross-profession based on how they for example soloroam/scout in an openfield setting or based on groupfights where the surrounding environment is a big factor in group effectiveness? Everything you mentioned above can be done with any build and any profession with the “right people”. It’s natural some professions/builds are better for some tasks than others in a large scale tactics. What’s the idea of cross-profession balancing then? Trying to bring everyone down to the same abilities is not good balancing. For example a thief is a much better scout than a guardian. Thief is more evasive, has good 1v1 power, has excellent escape abilities. Does that make the slower moving guardian worse than the thief? I think not.

You’re not talking about individual balance cross-profession, you’re talking about fitting the right profession+build to the right role in a group. That’s a totally different matter and is related to server scale tasks that need to be done and is no indication of balance differences between classes.

Issues with warrior mobility stem from its vulnerability to conditions, specifically in this case cripple and chill. Gap closers are completely trivial when you have a snare on you, and warriors have very few ways of removing them. It’s not as huge an issue for other classes, because they have other options. Warriors are inherently squishy, lack a lot of the defensive mechanics of other classes, and require constant uptime on a target to do damage. Most of their abilities as well are very easy to avoid for their importance. Bola, bulls charge, eviscerate are all game changers and a lot of warriors rely on those and similar things to win a fight. The same isn’t as true for other classes. Either they lack this big moments, or they can fall back on something else. On top of this, warriors have an incredibly difficult time disengaging from a fight. They’re like guardians without the bunker.

All of this is just summed up as “they’re not mobile.”

And all of this, or at least the snare part, has a stupid easy fix.

Mobile Strikes now cures cripple, chill, and immob, or Reckless Dodge now damage targets around you and cures cripple and chill.

They have very little condi removal, but they aren’t hard countered by these specific two. Now they just need a solution to defensive capability and boons. For boons, boon removal is really out of the question I think. Warriors are sort of meant to just power through those, but the only solution I can immediately see is either just increasing the damage of warriors, or adding something like “Do X% more damage per boon on target and ignores protection”.

For defensive changes? I think a lot of it would come from being able to deal with snares better, but they could really easily just change some things around, like Shield Stance having a lower CD, Endure Pain actually lasting 5 seconds, having a lower CD, and maybe cleanse/immunity to conditions.

Personally I also think they should change around 100B and Arcing Slice. Arcing Slice is just awful, since warriors have no issue with fury anyways. An idea I’ve played around with a lot is moving arcing slice to the 2 ability, and making 100B the burst ability. Then add a component like, 100B immobs the target for X seconds per adrenaline bar or you move faster for each adrenaline bar. Such as moving at 30/50/70% speed during 100B. This would make 100B easier to land, free up one utility slot (which would go with buffing defensive capabilities), and also make them a bit more independent.

Nope, let’s buff banners!

Imho, the one fix i would like to see is to let mobile strikes remove all snares!

A second suggestion to really push warriors is to give every melee weapon set a skill that is similar to the GS evade: i.e. leap for sword or cyclone axe for axe.

• Make mobile strikes cleanse slows aswell
• Fix endure pain bugs (3s DP even when traited, 4 sec EP when untraited) and make it into a true invuln that is similar to blurred frenzy/mistform
• Make rampage ignore all conditions and buff it’s skills
• Change GS burst skill to something proper or increase it’s damage greatly
• 3% burst damage at 30 discipline is rubbish, buff it

You know what would be interesting, if every hit the warrior reduced the duration of boons on the target by X seconds. Brawn can be replaced by this, so at 30 it can be something like 3 seconds per hit are removed from boons.

If that’s confusing, here’s an example:

Stability is on a target for 30 seconds. The warrior attacks, and stability is now 29 seconds. With 30 discipline, it would be 27 on attack. So each hit reduces the duration.

It would be more interesting than X% more damage per boon, offer group support, and thematically fit the warrior archetype where boon stripping does not.

Obviously 3 seconds would be OP without some sort of cooldown. This is just the concept.

Hmmm, multiple banners don’t stack, do they?

That is, you can’t have like 5 warriors each with Banner of Strength out and get 450 power/condition damage, right?

Leo G.4501:

Hmmm, multiple banners don’t stack, do they?

That is, you can’t have like 5 warriors each with Banner of Strength out and get 450 power/condition damage, right?

They don’t stack

I don’t mind a banner buff if it is along with other warrior changes that we desperately need. Other warriors have expressed those feelings in other posts so not going to rehash them. But if we are on the topic of banners, banners shouldn’t be as clunky. Having a banner dropped in the middle of battle in WvW should not interfere with stomping a downed opponent for example.
Anyway, banners are not obviously the biggest problem facing warriors today but they do need a buff and made less clunky to open up more diversity (especially in WvW).

Baldmeora.2376:

banners the least mobile skills in the game

They are ground-targeted can be picked up, carried around and planted somewhere else (multiple times) and have an AOE.

Sounds mobile to me. Ask a Guardian how mobile his symbols are.

Dolan.3071:

@ Red Falcon. IMO saving those valuable skills for escapes is the reason you need to escape in the first place. Rush is a poor gap closer and should be escape only, however bulls charge and WA are how you stay on top of them, bolas or other physicals to bog them down some more. Don’t get me wrong it could be better, but warrior isn’t as underpowered as everyone thinks.

Infact I use Rush as escape mostly (though it is valuable for damage too, 7k burst is not so shallow).
My escape combo is Charge→Savage Leap and then whatever other thing I saved up, usually Rush but sometimes Bull in case I didn’t need it.

You know, I use Flurry to land HB too so Bull is not always needed.

Why does no one consider that melee Warriors needs ‘pull’ abilities/utilities to supplement and fix the issue? (Hamstring should be Grappling Hook, Kick should be Tackle, Banner’s Sprint should be replaced with Mancatcher, etc.)

There is a reason Pull-mechanics are aligned with melees ‘in those other games’.

TheBlueI.3486:

Baldmeora.2376:

banners the least mobile skills in the game

They are ground-targeted can be picked up, carried around and planted somewhere else (multiple times) and have an AOE.

Sounds mobile to me. Ask a Guardian how mobile his symbols are.

You can’t leave behind a symbol and loose it for a few minutes. You can’t have someone pick up your symbol and walk away with it and loose the benefits of it. You can’t use banners several times in a fight. You don’t drop banners with auto attacks. You don’t get useful boons from banners.

Symbols are mobile in that they have short cooldowns, and have the added bonus of being a combo field (and a very useful kind of field) that is available often as well as the many utilities that guardians have that create combo fields with a respectable amount of finishers at their disposal as well. Not to mention the amount of synergy they have with so many traits that guardians have. The amount of utility every class has compared to warriors is insane and is a big reason they are so kitten Banners are good in PvE where it is no matter to keep a fight in range of a banner and after a fight can simply be picked up and carried to the next neat little encounter, but in PvP a player with the smallest bit of awareness would know that if for some reason a warrior is dropping a banner all they need to do is move the fight away from it or smack him around when they pick it up since a warrior holding a banner has no teeth. Banners need to either be attached to a warrior or have a way shorter duration and CD, and more powerful effect.

Regardless, there are way more pressing issues with the warrior than how banners perform (which is poorly in PvP, and quite well in PvE). Like the uselessness of the passive effects of signets (Dolyak Signet’s miserable +90 toughness, all the +90 signets for that matter) and their active effects (only Signet of Stamina and Signet of Rage is really useful), the kitten poor major and minor traits all over the place, the aforementioned inability of warriors to keep up with targets in fights, and the flat out brokenness of many of the warriors skills. It’s a kitten class, a melee DPS class that can’t stay close enough to melee or survive long enough to do any damage.

Artaz.3819:

There is a reason Pull-mechanics are aligned with melees ‘in those other games’.

You don’t need to search in other games to see a melee class with a pull.
Guardian’s GS #5 does exactly that.

And let’s be honest, Guardian is a lot more melee than Warrior, considering it has zero disengage and poor ranged weaponry.

Baldmeora.2376:

warrior is one of the least mobile class in the game
most classes and builds can outrun a war
war have no control
we have little damage unless we use gun

These gotta be the 4 most out-right totally wrong things I’ve read in this forum at all times since August 28th, and you managed to pack them all in one, single post.

You’re playing and understanding the class completely upside-down.
The sole presence of this thread visible in our forum makes me feel embarassed because everyone else reading this will be laughing at us.

Please do a favor to the Warrior community and delete the starting post.
Let’s just do that and pretend this never happened ok?
I’ll give you PvP lessons or gold or drinks, women, camels or cheeseburgers, whatever you are into.
Just delete this. Please.

Sure I’d like to see some other buffs to warriors, mainly our poor regen since we’re supposed to be a regen heavy class, but we do dearly need buffs to our banners lol
Also melee warriors can GREATLY benefit from banners as well, thinking otherwise shows your inexperience with the whole thing and proves you’re just whining about not getting something else uneededly buffed….

EDIT: And did someone actually say warrior cant do damage unless we use a freaking RIFLE!? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! Learn the freaking class before spouting crap like that, ty.

IMHO, there isn’t a lot in warrior that needs fixing. I’d say, fix some of the targeting like rush, give mobile strikes to remove all movement impairment and we’re probably one of the best classes.

peter.9024:

IMHO, there isn’t a lot in warrior that needs fixing. I’d say, fix some of the targeting like rush, give mobile strikes to remove all movement impairment and we’re probably one of the best classes.

Well, except that Mobile Strikes should probably be a baseline 5-pt Adept trait too … just saying that 20 in Discipline just to use melee seems a bit excessive.

BUT STURDY BODY GUYS

Red Falcon.8257:

Artaz.3819:

There is a reason Pull-mechanics are aligned with melees ‘in those other games’.

You don’t need to search in other games to see a melee class with a pull.
Guardian’s GS #5 does exactly that.

/ Agree on the pulls.

Red Falcon.8257:

And let’s be honest, Guardian is a lot more melee than Warrior, considering it has zero disengage and poor ranged weaponry.

I do not agree (I have a Guardian 80 as well). Guardians do have escape/disengage options. For instance, Guardian does have massive movement condition removal options (pick your version), Leap of Faith (GS), multiple chain blocks (Shield of Wrath (Focus) usable while stunned and instant is my favorite), Aegis, Renewed Focus (elite Invulnerability) which also refreshes Virtue of Courage/Aegis again, Judge’s Intervention (find an ambient creature), Merciful Intervention (usually suicide but can work), etc. I’m not saying Guardian’s are better than Warriors as tick-for-tat they are weaker in the escape department but Guardians do have more than -zero- disengage.

Artaz.3819:

I’m not saying Guardian’s are better than Warriors as tick-for-tat they are weaker in the escape department but Guardians do have more than -zero- disengage.

Let’s be honest here. If Warriors had half of the mistake-forgiving playstyle that Guardians had, they would be almost balanced.

LOL if warriors could make as many mistakes as a guardian and still be ok then they’d be OP as crap. ONLY reason guardians have so much leniency is cause they do crap for damage.
That being said it is too high in general, I mean you can literally smash your face on your keyboard as a guardian and it’ll still be hard to take you down, but giving that to warriors would NOT make them “balanced,” they’d definitely be OP as hell.

I said half as many, mostly exaggerating.

I do feel that they either need to raise the skill ceiling of some of the more common tank builds or give warriors something to be more competitive. I’m really, really hoping that “boon hate” will be a step in the right direction.

Sil.4560:

really hoping that “boon hate” will be a step in the right direction.

That’s where monsters aggro more often to players with a lot of boons, right? I haven’t really read up on it :P
If that is it though then it’ll definitely help balance things in PvE with those freakin guardians and eles, which only leaves WvW and s/tPvP (which is where they both are the most OP lol).

Sil.4560:

Artaz.3819:

I’m not saying Guardian’s are better than Warriors as tick-for-tat they are weaker in the escape department but Guardians do have more than -zero- disengage.

Let’s be honest here. If Warriors had half of the mistake-forgiving playstyle that Guardians had, they would be almost balanced.

IMHO, it’s not that far off (80 Warrior v 80 Guardian). Is Warrior slightly weaker right now? Generally or even overall, I would say, yes. Warriors can and do survive quite a bit even with mistakes…I do survive an extreme amount of punishment all the time (not comparing my play to Guardian but to other 80 classes I play).

The two main unforgiving pieces of Warrior right now is:

(1) really two specific lines for condition removals, one requiring 30 (20) point investment (Tactics) and the other requiring 20 point investment (Discipline) just to remain competitive/fun (Restorative Strength and/or Mending are heal-based/tied to last resort surviving and need to be removed from balance discussions on movement impairment conditions)

and (2) melee is not supported/optimized/feels clunky by game mechanics overall.

(2) could be argued for a lot of classes; banner changes will not fix that. Banner changes may fix the Shout v Banner balance issues.

EDIT: Seem to recall in another game that when melee reach was increased/using client to check facing opponent for latency was finally fixed (do I dare name that other game?) that clunky melee feeling also disappeared.

Also, endure pain in its current implementation is ok.. The reason why it’s not invulnerability is because warriors can attack during the period. Ele and engineers can really only run away, so it’s a trade off.

Artaz.3819:

I do not agree (I have a Guardian 80 as well). Guardians do have escape/disengage options. For instance, Guardian does have massive movement condition removal options (pick your version), Leap of Faith (GS), multiple chain blocks (Shield of Wrath (Focus) usable while stunned and instant is my favorite), Aegis, Renewed Focus (elite Invulnerability) which also refreshes Virtue of Courage/Aegis again, Judge’s Intervention (find an ambient creature), Merciful Intervention (usually suicide but can work), etc. I’m not saying Guardian’s are better than Warriors as tick-for-tat they are weaker in the escape department but Guardians do have more than -zero- disengage.

None of those you mentioned are disengages, save for JI which also really doesn’t.
Let’s be intellectually honest here, the chance of JI’ing on a mob that happens to be far from enemies is totally unreliable at best.
In normal conditions Guards have no disengages.

The reason I prefer Warrior over Guardian in WvW is because of the freedom of movement that is fundamental to not die.
The reason I prefer Guard in PvE is because Warrior has no sustain.

I believe Warriors as a melee class should get something like Guardian’s AH trait for PvE purposes.
You can’t realistically stay in melee without something like that against anything remotely serious, and that’s a design flaw.
Warriors are not Thieves that need to hit and run all the time, they need more staying power.

Artaz.3819:

Banner changes may fix the Shout v Banner balance issues.

You mean making shout healing even more worthless in comparison?
Banner healing might heal a bit less but you can keep Endure Pain slotted which alone negates more damage than shout healing would heal.

If anything they should make shout healing better, considering that to get the full effect you need to not slot Endure Pain or other useful tools such as Bolas (vs bosses) and Balanced Stance (Snowblind, AC, etc) which makes the whole concept ridiculous.
Should they give 3s protection or Aegis each shout it would make them somewhat on par with banners as it covers up the loss of Endure Pain.
And it wouldn’t touch PvP as shout healing in PvP is a joke.

Red Falcon.8257:

And it wouldn’t touch PvP as shout healing in PvP is a joke.

Banners in general in PvP are COMPLETELY useless, shouts in PvP are mainly used for team condition removal form support warriors.
A crap ton more useful then any sort of banner healing (or ANY kind of buffing from those pitiful banners).
I do agree shout healing in WvW and PvE is really lacking though, but that being said most shout warriors again don’t use it to primarily heal. If shouting healed for much more then it would become kind of OP with soldier runes and the trait to give adrenaline with shouts. We would be able to sustain as well if not better then Guardians, which is stupid.

@ RF – we are talking past each other; I wasn’t saying Warrior isn’t better in the mobility aspect, I was stating Guardians have more than -0- escape options available.

The problem with Shout healing being better numerically is really the multiplier effect of multiple Warriors. ANet allowed, removed and has allowed again the unlimited target multiple of Shout healing.

Shout healing in PvP is for the condition removal/healing/shout effect. It is 3-different options/abilities/synergies in one. AoE condition removal via Soldier Runes is why Shouts are primarily used (by Warriors) in PvP.

But because shout heals are unlimited in targets, you have to limit the health gain per Shout dramatically or you would have 5+ man Warrior teams trivializing content (not to mention what would happen in WvW) spamming 3 shouts as necessary. Banners have inherently capped healing because of boon.

I do agree that there is some +healing modifier for Shouts. I could say that for +healing stat in general for all classes though (it is just kind of weak stat and I am not entirely certain ANet’s reasoning for it mathematically to diminish the heal modifier for a lot of abilities/boons/utilities so much; I assume they have thoroughly tested some combination of its effects in PvE/tPvP to conclude the current basis).

IMO, Banners are in a very sad state in their current form. The whole concept needs an overhaul mechanically. Whether that is duo summoning one Banner in hand and one on the ground like Elementalists conjurations, or creating permanently ground-fixed but short-cooldown like Engineer turrets, or equip-to-back/ghost versions that follow you around like Guardian spirit-weapons, I don’t know. But as right now, Banners are the most cumbersome utility of all classes. In a word, da’suck.

My only beefs w warrs atm are banners.. kitten useless really of a slot and eviscerate.. I mean it absolutely will not land on a moving target. So I dont use it but

..mobility? mm not a problem for me and im not even good.

control? mm not a problem for me.. every weapon outisde of axe the snare works great. Again hehe they nerfed axe so bad I just dont use it. thankfully I have lots of other options.

so in closing I do not agree with the OP at all and will take any buff we can get

Banner need some buffs. We need banners everywhere over the place. From 90 points to over 9000!!!