Guild Wars 2

make fast hands warrior default class mechanics, introduce new minor trait

well this suggestion will truly bring huge diversity to warrior builds, since it destroys one of the typical warrior chains (the basic 3 points in discipline).

and it fits warrior pretty well >> “Warriors are masters of weaponry” he should be master by nature no need to trait him for that

but i don’t really see ANet doing it :P

Making thief’s feline grace as basic mechanic would be great too?

glock.6590:

Making thief’s feline grace as basic mechanic would be great too?

Is feline grace is necessity in every thief build? not.
warriros already have a tons of must have traits.

you also said you don’t play warrior, but i play thief.
not sure how you even compare felince grace to fast hands, because felince grace’s counter part is clearly building momentum and you don’t simply compare two traits like that, not to mention, these traits importance to each their own classes are not even close.

farther more, if you want, you can make a thread about it on thief forums, really, no one is stopping you to do it, if you have valid points.
are you simply here to start a class war again? after prof balance being removed?.

i welcome constructive comment with sense to it.
exit is that way.

Honestly, I think that Fast Hands is an essential part of a Warrior. It’s what makes playing a Warrior so much fun for me.

However, I don’t think that it should come to us naturally. Because let’s be honest, if you remove Fast Hands, you’ll only give birth to builds like 6/6/0/2/0. The last thing we need is more zerking. The change would be less for PvP, as a lot of builds already go 6 into Discipline for Burst Mastery, but there’s always the few people who don’t.

For example, I run 0/6/5/0/3 with Sword/Shield and LB in WvW. With this change, I would have little reason not to go 0/6/6/2/0, as the only thing I’d miss out on would be Warrior’s Sprint.

And yes, the same argument could easily be made for Feline Grace. It is a build-defining trait for S/D, after all. And fairly popular for D/P. Heck, I would love a native Feline Grace on my S/P setup.

^^^

thats one option.

you could also go ?/?/6/2/2 and still have 4 points to spend either in strength or Arms or even better ?/?/4/6/0 a beast shout heal warrior.

thats 3 builds on the fly, diversity brings it on.

Juba.8406:

^^^

thats one option.

you could also go ?/?/6/2/2 and still have 4 points to spend either in strength or Arms or even better ?/?/4/6/0 a beast shout heal warrior.

thats 3 builds on the fly, diversity brings it on.

Yes, it would bring way more diversity then any change will never bring to a class, then we can nerf certain builds accordingly.

@Olba
builds like 66020 already exist in PvE.
it’s already on battlemeta for quite some time

and it’s not crazy, and warrior is like no where close to top dps.

as of your build, you will also miss out ferocity, adrenaline on weapon swap, and lower burst skill cool down.

Feline Grace is build defining.
Fast hands is class defining.

If anything, i would be asking for cleansing ire to be class mechanic. don’t you get it?

Simon.3794:

@Olba
builds like 66020 already exist in PvE.
it’s already on battlemeta for quite some time

Of course they do, as builds that don’t swap weapons. But with Fast Hands natively, they could get both.

and it’s not crazy, and warrior is like no where close to top dps.

Doesn’t mean it wouldn’t still be a significant boost to our DPS. Which would mean they’d nerf other things, such as Berserker’s Power and Dual Wield Agility.

If anything, i would be asking for cleansing ire to be class mechanic. don’t you get it?

And how would you do that? You can’t just tack it onto burst skills and call it a day, that would be ridiculous.

Olba.5376:

Simon.3794:

@Olba
builds like 66020 already exist in PvE.
it’s already on battlemeta for quite some time

Of course they do, as builds that don’t swap weapons. But with Fast Hands natively, they could get both.

and it’s not crazy, and warrior is like no where close to top dps.

Doesn’t mean it wouldn’t still be a significant boost to our DPS. Which would mean they’d nerf other things, such as Berserker’s Power and Dual Wield Agility.

If anything, i would be asking for cleansing ire to be class mechanic. don’t you get it?

And how would you do that? You can’t just tack it onto burst skills and call it a day, that would be ridiculous.

Of course they do, as builds that don’t swap weapons. But with Fast Hands natively, they could get both.

And? Does it double it’s DPS output or make the warrior invincible?

Doesn’t mean it wouldn’t still be a significant boost to our DPS. Which would mean they’d nerf other things, such as Berserker’s Power and Dual Wield Agility.

Let’s not argue how having -5 second weapon swap CD, would increase DPS significantly in anyway (no CD swaping engis much have over 9000 damagelol.)
Do it then? You said it youself that you don’t want zerker meta anymore, why not?
or you are simply here to troll?

And how would you do that? You can’t just tack it onto burst skills and call it a day, that would be ridiculous.
what?

I’m not necessarily opposed to it as I don’t think it will make a huge difference. But because that it wouldn’t make a huge difference there isn’t much incentive to change it.

There would still be plenty incentive to dabble into the discipline trait line even without fast hands. Warrior’s Sprint, DotE, Signet Mastery, Vigorous Focus, Mobile Strikes and all the Grandmaster traits are very good traits. Even Versatile Rage and the 1 might per swap is decent. IMO Discipline is an overall better traitline than Strength, even without Fast Hands, at least when PvP or WvW is concerned. You get a boost in adrenaline, % damage, increased movement speed, increased might, increased critical chance if you want to use it, etc. As well as access to more frequent bursts.

However, I think if you do this, you also have to look at other classes who have such class defining traits. For example Deceptive Evasion for the Mesmer is very class defining. Evasive Arcana is very class defining, etc.

killahmayne.9518:

I’m not necessarily opposed to it as I don’t think it will make a huge difference. But because that it wouldn’t make a huge difference there isn’t much incentive to change it.

There would still be plenty incentive to dabble into the discipline trait line even without fast hands. Warrior’s Sprint, DotE, Signet Mastery, Vigorous Focus, Mobile Strikes and all the Grandmaster traits are very good traits. Even Versatile Rage and the 1 might per swap is decent. IMO Discipline is an overall better traitline than Strength, even without Fast Hands, at least when PvP or WvW is concerned. You get a boost in adrenaline, % damage, increased movement speed, increased might, increased critical chance if you want to use it, etc. As well as access to more frequent bursts.

However, I think if you do this, you also have to look at other classes who have such class defining traits. For example Deceptive Evasion for the Mesmer is very class defining. Evasive Arcana is very class defining, etc.

Deceptive Evasion, especially Evasive Arcana are not class defining, they are simply what make the class to be good in PvP.
Just like Cleansing ire Warrior needs it to be good in PvP.
Which is not what im asking here.

Simon.3794:

killahmayne.9518:

I’m not necessarily opposed to it as I don’t think it will make a huge difference. But because that it wouldn’t make a huge difference there isn’t much incentive to change it.

There would still be plenty incentive to dabble into the discipline trait line even without fast hands. Warrior’s Sprint, DotE, Signet Mastery, Vigorous Focus, Mobile Strikes and all the Grandmaster traits are very good traits. Even Versatile Rage and the 1 might per swap is decent. IMO Discipline is an overall better traitline than Strength, even without Fast Hands, at least when PvP or WvW is concerned. You get a boost in adrenaline, % damage, increased movement speed, increased might, increased critical chance if you want to use it, etc. As well as access to more frequent bursts.

However, I think if you do this, you also have to look at other classes who have such class defining traits. For example Deceptive Evasion for the Mesmer is very class defining. Evasive Arcana is very class defining, etc.

Deceptive Evasion, especially Evasive Arcana are not class defining, they are simply what make the class to be good in PvP.
Just like Cleansing ire Warrior needs it to be good in PvP.
Which is not what im asking here.

They ARE class defining in the sense that pretty much every build no matter the weaponset uses it and are not competitive without it. You could argue against Evasive Arcana depending on how you define class defining, however Deceptive Evasion is every bit as class defining as Fast Hands, perhaps even moreso. The class mechanic of a mesmer revolves around clones/illusions. Without clones/illusions, the class is useless and wouldn’t be a mesmer. Deceptive Evasion = huge clone generation/output.

My point is that ANet won’t simply give fast hands away for free, even though it wouldn’t make a huge difference towards builds people run. People will still run discipline regardless, because it is the 2nd best traitline Warriors have in terms of options, viability in PvP/WvW, just maybe have an extra point to put somewhere else. And to justify such a change, you also have to look at other classes who may suffer something similar to “Fast Hands”.

killahmayne.9518:

Simon.3794:

killahmayne.9518:

I’m not necessarily opposed to it as I don’t think it will make a huge difference. But because that it wouldn’t make a huge difference there isn’t much incentive to change it.

There would still be plenty incentive to dabble into the discipline trait line even without fast hands. Warrior’s Sprint, DotE, Signet Mastery, Vigorous Focus, Mobile Strikes and all the Grandmaster traits are very good traits. Even Versatile Rage and the 1 might per swap is decent. IMO Discipline is an overall better traitline than Strength, even without Fast Hands, at least when PvP or WvW is concerned. You get a boost in adrenaline, % damage, increased movement speed, increased might, increased critical chance if you want to use it, etc. As well as access to more frequent bursts.

However, I think if you do this, you also have to look at other classes who have such class defining traits. For example Deceptive Evasion for the Mesmer is very class defining. Evasive Arcana is very class defining, etc.

Deceptive Evasion, especially Evasive Arcana are not class defining, they are simply what make the class to be good in PvP.
Just like Cleansing ire Warrior needs it to be good in PvP.
Which is not what im asking here.

They ARE class defining in the sense that pretty much every build no matter the weaponset uses it and are not competitive without it. You could argue against Evasive Arcana depending on how you define class defining, however Deceptive Evasion is every bit as class defining as Fast Hands, perhaps even moreso. The class mechanic of a mesmer revolves around clones/illusions. Without clones/illusions, the class is useless and wouldn’t be a mesmer. Deceptive Evasion = huge clone generation/output.

My point is that ANet won’t simply give fast hands away for free, even though it wouldn’t make a huge difference towards builds people run. People will still run discipline regardless, because it is the 2nd best traitline Warriors have in terms of options, viability in PvP/WvW, just maybe have an extra point to put somewhere else. And to justify such a change, you also have to look at other classes who may suffer something similar to “Fast Hands”.

Let’s start with S/F does not use Evasive Arcana, and it is really strong and commonly used in duelings.

A trait does not make it to class defining just because every PvP build has it.
by that logic, Cleansing ire is also class defining, because the class is involved around burst skills.
Not to mention, no PvE meta builds run Deceptive Evasion, which means it’s just like Cleansing Ire and Evasive Arcana that this trait is build defining which make the classes good in PvP.

While Fast Hands in the other hand is meta in PvE, WvW, PvP build and it drastically changes warrior’s basic gameplay routine. The only builds that does not have Fast Hands are GS only Might Buffers and AA zerg.

I wouldn’t say it won’t make differences, because from what i see, it will definitively increase diversity as warriors are no longer to default with 0 0 4 0 3 in PvP

Like I said before, it depends on how you define “class defining” and who is to say your definition of class defining is any more correct than mine or somebody elses.

From what I gather from your posts, you define “class defining” as a particular mechanic or trait that is used and is pervasive in all game modes (PvE, PvP, WvW) and are included in all meta builds.

However, there are meta builds in PvE that don’t use Fast Hands, it isn’t absolutely necessary in PvE builds whatsoever. It isn’t the difference between subpar to amazing like it is in PvP and WvW. In fact the meta build without fast hands can be just as good.

You say that just because a trait used in every meta PvP build doesn’t make it class defining. Neither does a trait that is used in all game modes necessarily make it class defining. Just because certain builds don’t use it, it doesn’t mean the trait isn’t class defining, IMO.

You also say that Cleansing Ire and Evasive Arcana make builds good in PvP. Two things about that.

#1: Cleansing Ire and Evasive Arcana do more than make builds good in PvP. They make even entire classes viable to the point where they would simply be ineffective without them. S/F isn’t really that viable or used in high tournament level play.

#2: Fast hands doesn’t make a PvE build “good”, so what does that say about Fast Hands? It isn’t anywhere near “defining” in a PvE build whatsoever. And according to your logic, wouldn’t that mean Fast Hands wouldn’t be class defining? Because it clearly isn’t defining in a PvE build, because clearly there are other meta builds that do not use Fast Hands. Which comes around to my point, just because it isn’t used in a select few builds, doesn’t mean it isn’t class defining.

To me Cleansing Ire is class defining in the sense that it contributes such a huge and major part to our class mechanic, and is pretty much the only option for doing so. Warriors are centered around bursts, Cleansing Ire so clearly impacts these bursts so largely that it can be considered class defining. Much like how Deceptive Evasion impacts the Mesmer mechanic so highly. Fast Hands is class defining in the sense that so many builds depend on its use that it is practically a staple in almost every build. Just because a one or two builds don’t use the said trait, doesn’t mean it isn’t class defining.

Is Healing Signet class defining? According to both of our definitions yes. Because it is the only heal used regardless of game mode.

However, just because something is “class defining” doesn’t mean it should be made default for the class necessarily. Something being class defining also points to a lack of other options (Cleansing Ire and Deceptive Evasion + Healing Signet fall into that category).

And like I said, making Fast Hands default doesn’t make a huge difference at all.

Celestial swordbow will instead run 0/0/6/6/2 instead of 0/0/5/6/3, for the adrenaline on shouts. Hambow will still run 2/0/6/0/6. Hammer/GS will still run 2/0/6/2/4. Axebow runs 6 in discipline. Axe/GS will still run at least 2 in discipline if not more. It only really frees up 1 trait point for certain builds. And plus, if you make Fast Hands default, you will have to make a new minor trait in discipline which in itself makes an already very strong traitline even more enticing.

killahmayne.9518:

Like I said before, it depends on how you define “class defining” and who is to say your definition of class defining is any more correct than mine or somebody elses.

From what I gather from your posts, you define “class defining” as a particular mechanic or trait that is used and is pervasive in all game modes (PvE, PvP, WvW) and are included in all meta builds.

However, there are meta builds in PvE that don’t use Fast Hands, it isn’t absolutely necessary in PvE builds whatsoever. It isn’t the difference between subpar to amazing like it is in PvP and WvW. In fact the meta build without fast hands can be just as good.

You say that just because a trait used in every meta PvP build doesn’t make it class defining. Neither does a trait that is used in all game modes necessarily make it class defining. Just because certain builds don’t use it, it doesn’t mean the trait isn’t class defining, IMO.

You also say that Cleansing Ire and Evasive Arcana make builds good in PvP. Two things about that.

#1: Cleansing Ire and Evasive Arcana do more than make builds good in PvP. They make even entire classes viable to the point where they would simply be ineffective without them. S/F isn’t really that viable or used in high tournament level play.

#2: Fast hands doesn’t make a PvE build “good”, so what does that say about Fast Hands? It isn’t anywhere near “defining” in a PvE build whatsoever. And according to your logic, wouldn’t that mean Fast Hands wouldn’t be class defining? Because it clearly isn’t defining in a PvE build, because clearly there are other meta builds that do not use Fast Hands. Which comes around to my point, just because it isn’t used in a select few builds, doesn’t mean it isn’t class defining.

To me Cleansing Ire is class defining in the sense that it contributes such a huge and major part to our class mechanic, and is pretty much the only option for doing so. Warriors are centered around bursts, Cleansing Ire so clearly impacts these bursts so largely that it can be considered class defining. Much like how Deceptive Evasion impacts the Mesmer mechanic so highly. Fast Hands is class defining in the sense that so many builds depend on its use that it is practically a staple in almost every build. Just because a one or two builds don’t use the said trait, doesn’t mean it isn’t class defining.

Is Healing Signet class defining? According to both of our definitions yes. Because it is the only heal used regardless of game mode.

However, just because something is “class defining” doesn’t mean it should be made default for the class necessarily. Something being class defining also points to a lack of other options (Cleansing Ire and Deceptive Evasion + Healing Signet fall into that category).

And like I said, making Fast Hands default doesn’t make a huge difference at all.

Celestial swordbow will instead run 0/0/6/6/2 instead of 0/0/5/6/3, for the adrenaline on shouts. Hambow will still run 2/0/6/0/6. Hammer/GS will still run 2/0/6/2/4. Axebow runs 6 in discipline. Axe/GS will still run at least 2 in discipline if not more. It only really frees up 1 trait point for certain builds. And plus, if you make Fast Hands default, you will have to make a new minor trait in discipline which in itself makes an already very strong traitline even more enticing.

If fast hands doesnt make a PvE build good, why is the meta dps build 65003 and not 66020 nor 66002. there’s a reason why the best builds in every area have fast hands that defines warrior in every coiner of this game.

and PvP isn’t the only game mode out there

Theres no trait which can compare to Fast hands in terms of it’s importance to a class.
00003 is the base line for every warrior, 00403 is the base line for every pvp warrior.
04000 is the base line for every pvp mesmer, you could say that to evade arcana, it’s base line for pvp only

Simon.3794:

killahmayne.9518:

Like I said before, it depends on how you define “class defining” and who is to say your definition of class defining is any more correct than mine or somebody elses.

From what I gather from your posts, you define “class defining” as a particular mechanic or trait that is used and is pervasive in all game modes (PvE, PvP, WvW) and are included in all meta builds.

However, there are meta builds in PvE that don’t use Fast Hands, it isn’t absolutely necessary in PvE builds whatsoever. It isn’t the difference between subpar to amazing like it is in PvP and WvW. In fact the meta build without fast hands can be just as good.

You say that just because a trait used in every meta PvP build doesn’t make it class defining. Neither does a trait that is used in all game modes necessarily make it class defining. Just because certain builds don’t use it, it doesn’t mean the trait isn’t class defining, IMO.

You also say that Cleansing Ire and Evasive Arcana make builds good in PvP. Two things about that.

#1: Cleansing Ire and Evasive Arcana do more than make builds good in PvP. They make even entire classes viable to the point where they would simply be ineffective without them. S/F isn’t really that viable or used in high tournament level play.

#2: Fast hands doesn’t make a PvE build “good”, so what does that say about Fast Hands? It isn’t anywhere near “defining” in a PvE build whatsoever. And according to your logic, wouldn’t that mean Fast Hands wouldn’t be class defining? Because it clearly isn’t defining in a PvE build, because clearly there are other meta builds that do not use Fast Hands. Which comes around to my point, just because it isn’t used in a select few builds, doesn’t mean it isn’t class defining.

To me Cleansing Ire is class defining in the sense that it contributes such a huge and major part to our class mechanic, and is pretty much the only option for doing so. Warriors are centered around bursts, Cleansing Ire so clearly impacts these bursts so largely that it can be considered class defining. Much like how Deceptive Evasion impacts the Mesmer mechanic so highly. Fast Hands is class defining in the sense that so many builds depend on its use that it is practically a staple in almost every build. Just because a one or two builds don’t use the said trait, doesn’t mean it isn’t class defining.

Is Healing Signet class defining? According to both of our definitions yes. Because it is the only heal used regardless of game mode.

However, just because something is “class defining” doesn’t mean it should be made default for the class necessarily. Something being class defining also points to a lack of other options (Cleansing Ire and Deceptive Evasion + Healing Signet fall into that category).

And like I said, making Fast Hands default doesn’t make a huge difference at all.

Celestial swordbow will instead run 0/0/6/6/2 instead of 0/0/5/6/3, for the adrenaline on shouts. Hambow will still run 2/0/6/0/6. Hammer/GS will still run 2/0/6/2/4. Axebow runs 6 in discipline. Axe/GS will still run at least 2 in discipline if not more. It only really frees up 1 trait point for certain builds. And plus, if you make Fast Hands default, you will have to make a new minor trait in discipline which in itself makes an already very strong traitline even more enticing.

If fast hands doesnt make a PvE build good, why is the meta dps build 65003 and not 66020 nor 66002. there’s a reason why the best builds in every area have fast hands that defines warrior in every coiner of this game.

and PvP isn’t the only game mode out there

Theres no trait which can compare to Fast hands in terms of it’s importance to a class.
00003 is the base line for every warrior, 00403 is the base line for every pvp warrior.
04000 is the base line for every pvp mesmer, you could say that to evade arcana, it’s base line for pvp only

Let me ask you this then.

Is 0/0/6/5/3 a good build for PvE? Does Fast Hands alone save this build? Is it really that much better than let us say, 0/0/6/6/2? Fast Hands doesn’t make this PvE build good.

Is 6/5/0/0/3 a meta build? Yes. Is 6/6/0/2/0 a meta build? Yes. is 6/5/0/0/3 better than 6/6/0/2/0? It is arguable and certain situations yes. Is there a huge difference between the two said builds? No. Nike even says 6/6/0/2/0 is superior to 6/5/0/0/3 provided your party can stack vulnerability well. 6/6/0/2/0 is a very good PvE build without Fast Hands, and Fast Hands isn’t the difference between a terrible PvE build and a great PvE build is what I am saying. Fast hands can’t save a terrible PvE build to begin with, nor does a great PvE build require Fast Hands. Just because the meta runs it doesn’t mean it is absolutely necessary.

And about whether a trait is baseline in PvE, PvP or both. I already stated my arguments, at this point would rather not state it again.

Fast hands just makes warriors fun to play and a little more responsive in pvp because their utilities aren’t things like teleports, stealth, or much in the way of movement. Warriors then use the weapon swap to activate defensive weapon aspects such as block.

In PvE it’s nice to be able to fast swap and use Whirlwind Attack to evade. But, it’s not strictly necessary. The class just feels clunky without it and that’s more of my issue with it being trait-based. Warrior weapon abilities can flow reasonably well into each other as combinations with fast hands, however, without it the slow animations and longish cooldowns on a lot of the abilities makes the class too clunky otherwise.

I personally agree that it should be baked into the class. But, I think it’s okay to force expenditure of traits for things you want. It’s just that this shouldn’t conflict with a class being enjoyable to play. I think a lot of traits should be about preference and trade-offs. For many, the clunkiness innate in warriors just makes fast hands too good to pass up but by that token its placement should be higher up discipline. The existence of fast hands is just an awkward trait concept.

Baseline could be a lot of power creep.

@killahmayne.9518

Your first argument is just silly, because PvE meta is DPS, you just bring a bunker spec and trying to win an argument that is about a trait and fonctionality

It’s like saying is 3 3 4 2 2 zerker good for PvP? no, so cleansing ire does not make warrior good in PvP. It’s just super silly and dumb.

2nd of all, Meta build is 6 5 0 0 3, and 6 6 0 2 0 is not, 6 6 0 2 0 is an alternative over 65003 that does less damage and do not as good over all and you pretty much never weapon swap (build created by this topix meta, unintended exploit, a warrior never swap weapon, k ), The reason why 66020 is not meta, because it relies on your teamates to do stuff for you only then sure it might out dps the meta build.

See, you said it yourself, 66020 is better if your team can do it for you, that’s not a standing argument in this topic, Why bring a DPS warrior when you can bring an ele? why bring longbow war when other classes with higher dps also have huge fire fields?
Why don’t we just remove all our healing abilities because our teamates can heal for us? that’s just not the right argument.

Not to mention the pure DPS meta is just toxic you may as well just auto attack all day long and never weapon swap with axe like they do in some GvG videos and spend 7 points out of 14 for specific traits in every single build to be only half decent in PvP, way to encourage diversity.