sustain outside of healing needed

sustain outside of healing needed

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Posted by: lighter.2708

lighter.2708

warrior need sustain healing outside of healing skill and adrenaline health

and by that i don’t mean sacrificing all utility slots for shout and play shout heal

i mean like, rev has leech on damage trait line that matches healing signet and minor healing on shield, ele has water attunment skills
and like guardian F2

warrior simply has no sustain outside of healing skill..sure warrior has block, but all the blockable make blocks really hard to play..

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Posted by: Zenos Osgorma.2936

Zenos Osgorma.2936

stop using Full zerkers then and slot in some toughness+healing power , Healing sig and Adrenaline health is enough also those two are not ment to Massively negate damage ticks while wearing such Squishy armour/stat sets.

warroirs have the a high amount of hp to start with so take advantage of that.

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Posted by: Serval.6458

Serval.6458

Rousing resilience can be quite good (in warrior terms,) you just have to be a berserker to take real advantage of it while sacrificing cleansing ire/last stand and not having too much stability uptime.

Maybe our next elite spec can be the “Waterbearer” and give water fields for all our leaps and powerful synergy to take meaningful advantage of.

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Posted by: Aurugal.6954

Aurugal.6954

stop using Full zerkers then and slot in some toughness+healing power , Healing sig and Adrenaline health is enough also those two are not ment to Massively negate damage ticks while wearing such Squishy armour/stat sets.

warroirs have the a high amount of hp to start with so take advantage of that.

If you think war sustain is fine you’re probably still learning the fundamentals of the game or you play with people who love swallowing eviscerates. Pick your poison!

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Posted by: lighter.2708

lighter.2708

Rousing resilience can be quite good (in warrior terms,) you just have to be a berserker to take real advantage of it while sacrificing cleansing ire/last stand and not having too much stability uptime.

Maybe our next elite spec can be the “Waterbearer” and give water fields for all our leaps and powerful synergy to take meaningful advantage of.

yea, rousing resilience is the only thing good sustain now that you don’t need the entire utility bar to make it work somehow..but you are sacrificing a bit too much still..with condition clears and all that discipline line

also stunbreak on berserk really should be base line

(edited by lighter.2708)

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Posted by: Valik Shin.9027

Valik Shin.9027

I guess we just all have to go back to shout bow

Valik Shin
Darkwood Legion [DARK]
Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: Malhavoc.8976

Malhavoc.8976

Haven’t fully fleshed out this idea but what do you all think about a condi build that combines a couple shouts with rousing resilience?

I’m at work and can’t use a build editor, but here’s the general idea:

Sage’s amulet
Tempest runes
Defense: top/mid, top, bottom
Tactics: top/mid, top, mid(whichever is the shout trait)
Berserker: top/bottom, mid/bottom, mid
Sword+x(prob war horn for swiftness & condi clear) and longbow (mace+shield?)
Outrage, shake it off, for great justice, head butt
Healing sig, to the limit, or defiant stance (can see a case for each, actually)
Sigils are up for debate but probably generosity+intelligence on each

Each shake it off heals for 6k if used as a stunbreak, while other stunbreaks heal for over 4k. Nearby allies will also receive a bit of healing. Rousing resilience covers lack of toughness. Damage should be decent with 1050 power/1050 condition damage. Obviously, this won’t be a tournament build, but is it workable?

Malhavoc Shadowlord (Ranger)

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Posted by: Valik Shin.9027

Valik Shin.9027

Rousing resilience is gimicy at best. Relies on people using hard cc.

Valik Shin
Darkwood Legion [DARK]
Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: Infusion.7149

Infusion.7149

There should be tweaks to make warriors melt to conditions less , at least for WvW:

Priority:

  • Dogged March (trait), instead of regeneration it could have been given a heal similar to Adrenal Health / Rousing Resilience (i.e. not dependent on boons) … because regeneration boon corrupts to poison , see rapid regen on scrapper
  • “Shrug it off” (trait) should be reworked to trigger on 2 or more conditions or hard CCed (dazed, knocked down, launched, or stunned), remove bleed and/or chill every time on top of the condition removed, or have the recharge lowered heavily. It is a much weaker trait compared to Empower Allies in this condition heavy meta.
    —-> see Plague Sending , Burning Fire
    —-> re: disabled , see Retaliatory Subconscious / Hunter’s Determination / Eye for an Eye / Autodefense Bomb Dispenser / Shared Anguish / Hard to Catch / Tempest Defense / Gale Song / Mirror of Anguish
  • Signet of Stamina (cure all conditions , skill) could have reduced base recharge to 35-40 seconds : Signet Mastery is in the Arms line —- see Contemplation of Purity recharge reduction
    —-> it’s also blatantly obvious you have it equipped.
  • Balanced stance & Last stand trait (personal stability) could have a recharge decrease to 25-35s —- nobody really takes this just for the swiftness
  • Berserker Stance (skill ; condition resistance via resistance) could have a slight recharge decrease (currently 60 seconds), especially since it doesn’t break stun : perhaps also block physical projectiles (might be a bit too strong) or immune to chill (what resistance corrupts to)

Not as Priority:

  • “Shake it off” could remove bleed or weakness (or some other spammy condition) every time on top of the 1 condition, at 20 recharge (traited) removing 1 condition unless you use trooper runes is not a make or break utility skill : this can be slightly weaker than Shrug it off , since Shrug it off isn’t player controlled but it still needs to be worthy of a skill slot
  • Dolyak Signet (Personal stability in exchange for 180 toughness) could have reduced base recharge to 45 seconds (or less) —- this is ten stacks of stability but so is Armor of Earth for eles ; this has a tradeoff of 180 toughness
    —-> it’s also blatantly obvious you have it equipped. However, due to the passive effect it doesn’t need as much help as Balanced stance

Maybe:

  • Determined revival (trait): have it so you don’t take any bleed/poison/burn/torment/confusion condition damage for at least 2 seconds
  • Thick skin (trait): instead of > 90% , > 75% , or something like -20% condition damage from 3+ stacks of bleeding while chilled or -10% condition damage while vulnerable/taunted/feared/etc
  • Endure Pain (skill) / Defy Pain (trait): ignore bleeding damage (maybe)
  • Restorative Strength (trait): cure weakness
  • Savage Instinct (trait) could remove chill every time, on top of the 2 conditions , to make Berserk mode thematically more resistant to chills
    —-> However, strengthening Berserker is likely not a good idea because it’s not core warrior
  • Eternal Champion (trait) could have fear duration -50% (stability corrupts to fear)
  • Fatal Frenzy (trait): 1.5 or 2 seconds superspeed instead of 3 second swiftness so it can’t be boon corrupted ?

TL; DR:

  • Make warrior’s personal stability at the very least on par with guardian’s group stability
    —- Balanced Stance with Last Stand should be at least equal uptime to Guardian’s Stand Your Ground + Indomitable Courage (trait)
  • Lower recharge on stances , strengthen condi removal that requires utility slots
  • Lessen the reliance on boons
Desolation (EU) → Yak’s Bend (US)
In your backline: Elementalist+Mesmer+Necromancer

(edited by Infusion.7149)

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Posted by: Zenos Osgorma.2936

Zenos Osgorma.2936

stop using Full zerkers then and slot in some toughness+healing power , Healing sig and Adrenaline health is enough also those two are not ment to Massively negate damage ticks while wearing such Squishy armour/stat sets.

warroirs have the a high amount of hp to start with so take advantage of that.

If you think war sustain is fine you’re probably still learning the fundamentals of the game or you play with people who love swallowing eviscerates. Pick your poison!

lol no I;‘ve been a gw1 Veteran on ranger since gw1’s release i understand the Fundamentals more than most people do.

and i’ve played a warroir too ranging from the Typical Beserker to the hambow meta , then onto the Malice hammer/sword+shield builds so ya you pick you’re poison since a Eviscerate is so easy to dodge.

if you Warroir players Struggle vs condis its because of two reasons.

1. you are a Yolo warroir no team mates as lack of condi resilance or sustainable condi clear is a warroirs weakness .
2. not enough defence weapons or traits supported by high armour which is what Resounding resliance comes in handy for in a meta Filled with Hard CC its a decent choice for the trade off.
3. going to the Specialisation spec Beserker mode just means putting more focus into Dealing damage rather than Sustaining so you must rely on Endure pains ect and become weaker to condis. (there is no avoiding that its what Specialisations do to classes it improves one Role)

there are options for warroirs with a team but for Yolo types don’t expect Anet to cover Warroirs Main weaknesses with alterations on a grand level.

ever since gw1 Condis have been the warroirs Bane and always will be.

(edited by Zenos Osgorma.2936)

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Posted by: EphemeralWallaby.7643

EphemeralWallaby.7643

i mean like, rev has leech on damage trait line that matches healing signet and minor healing on shield, ele has water attunment skills
and like guardian F2

Guardian F2 is a really really horrible example to use; sorry.

Guard is my main (likely going to change soon to Warrior), and I believe I have build-experimented with him more than many have. I can confidently say that F2 is utter kitten unless you’ve got a ton of healing power, and even then it’s not enough.

A better example might be the guard elite signet… but even then when combined with F2 it’s not enough unless you have a respectable amount of healing power.

Warrior healing signet + adrenal health outheals Guardian f2 + elite signet. Even if you divide the Warrior healing signet amount by 3 (as some say it ticks the amount listed every 3 seconds instead of the 1 second it’s supposed to… I haven’t checked yet), here’s your math:

At 0 HP:
Warrior: 120 (signet/3) + 117 (AH) = ~ 237/sec
Guardian: 84 (F2) + 81 (eSig) = ~ 165/sec
Guardian (traited f2): 105 (f2) + 81 (eSig) = ~186/sec

At 1000 HP:
Warrior: ~137 (signet/3) + ~167 (AH) = ~304/sec
Guardian: ~144 (f2) +~131 (eSig) = ~275/sec
Guardian (traited f2) = ~180 (f2) + ~131 (eSig) = ~321/sec

So, it takes 1000 hp for the Guard traited f2 + elite healing signet to exceed the Warrior by a whopping ~17/sec.

Guard f2 activation heal is garbage. Warriors can shout-heal. Warriors can put out sustained regen (by banners) where the Guard does in small bursts (using mace symbol). So, Warriors can have every utility skill and their elite do healing…

As far as passive healing is concerned, Warriors got the prize.

~EW

(if my math is wrong somewhere, I apologize… I’m using the wiki as well as the build-editor where the wiki wasn’t helpful… to the best of my ability/knowledge, what I’ve presented is correct)

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Posted by: EphemeralWallaby.7643

EphemeralWallaby.7643

I’ve recently been theory-crafting a regen build for my Warrior… I’ve not yet tried it out (still playing with the numbers)… but it looks like I can keep regen on him all the time using only one banner… added to that the signet and adrenal health, I have high hopes it’ll work out. But I won’t know for sure until I try it out.

I love build experimentation

~EW

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Posted by: Valik Shin.9027

Valik Shin.9027

Healing signet is good but can easily be countered with nothing more than poison.

Valik Shin
Darkwood Legion [DARK]
Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: EphemeralWallaby.7643

EphemeralWallaby.7643

Healing signet is good but can easily be countered with nothing more than poison.

That goes for all healing…. and it’s not countered, just reduced. So if you’re passive healing is merely “adequate” for most situations, then yeah poison will make it largely useless.

Any build that doesn’t include some kind of condi cleanse is going to have a lot of problems no matter what.

~EW

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Posted by: Henry.5713

Henry.5713

If this is about PvP at a good level…

All of that talk about how crazy healing signet is seems a bit outdated these days. It is and always has been just a means for good passive healing. With the added handicap of blocking your healing skill slot with a terrible active heal.
A handicap neither revenants and scrappers have to share. They can do everything a melee warrior ( or guardian for that matter ) can and much more.

ArenaNet could turn healing signet into a normal utility signet to make room for any of the active healing skills. It would finally allow for a combination of good passive healing as well as a powerful burst healing skill.
That seems like a really cheap and easy fix even if a pretty effective one. Wouldn’t do anything about the many problems with traits and all, though. It would also be yet another musthave we could add to the already long list.
The problem has always been the very limited amount of “ulitities” such as blocks, evades, regen, teleports, instant stuff or anything like that coming from actual weapon skills or class mechanics and not your utility choices.

Those calaculations of the entire amount of possible passive healing do sound crazy on paper but they don’t consider the limitations you run into:

You have to pick between Healing Singet or To the Limit, three utility shouts or two shouts and a regen banner.
You need to decide whether you can actually go for shouts without Endure Pain or Balance Stance these days.
You will have to pick something like Defense+Tactics+Discipline and then Healing Signet+Shake it Off+Banner+Balance Stance to get all these stustain options at once.
Leaving each one of them at 1/4 or 1/3 of their full potential.

Look at the entire picture here. Your options for sustain actually exclude eachother or at least weaken the effectiveness of a second or third form of sustain you try to include in your build. What we actually need to see is the combination of a few of these sustain options ( combination of traits, skill type changes, rework to banners, etc.) to ever come close to what other classes can do.

(edited by Henry.5713)

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Posted by: Valik Shin.9027

Valik Shin.9027

Healing signet is good but can easily be countered with nothing more than poison.

That goes for all healing…. and it’s not countered, just reduced. So if you’re passive healing is merely “adequate” for most situations, then yeah poison will make it largely useless.

Any build that doesn’t include some kind of condi cleanse is going to have a lot of problems no matter what.

~EW

Yes it effects all healing but it hurt HS worse because it reduces each tick then does enough damage on top of that to soak up almost all of the remaining healing

I agree that builds should have condi cleanse but that part of the problem with warrior. They only have 3 non traited condi cleanses. 2 of them (mending and signet of stamina ) are pretty lack luster.

Valik Shin
Darkwood Legion [DARK]
Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: EphemeralWallaby.7643

EphemeralWallaby.7643

If this is about PvP at a good level…

I’m one of those hated PvEers (and some WvW), so much of what I state is going to be colored by that. Sorry.

All of that talk about how crazy healing signet is seems a bit outdated these days. It is and always has been just a means for good passive healing. With the added handicap of blocking your healing skill slot with a terrible active heal.

It’s “blocking” the healing slot because it serves the purpose of healing, but in an alternative way. The healing slot doesn’t necessarily mean ‘burst heal only,’ even if it is preferred. Like all skills including bread-and-butter bursts, the signet is going to be situationally useful.

A handicap neither revenants and scrappers have to share. They can do everything a melee warrior ( or guardian for that matter ) can and much more.

I can’t speak to that, I’m sorry. Engineers don’t fit my play style, and I haven’t picked up a revenant yet. I do know from 20ish years of mmo experience that it’s really easy to point at something from the outside and say it’s OP in comparison to what you’ve got (especially in PvP), and not realize the weaknesses/flaws the other person is dealing with. So many times I’ve had the class I’ve been playing pointed at as OP, and I’m dumbfounded because I can point to ways I can be negated and overcome.

ArenaNet could turn healing signet into a normal utility signet to make room for any of the active healing skills. It would finally allow for a combination of good passive healing as well as a powerful burst healing skill.
That seems like a really cheap and easy fix even if a pretty effective one. Wouldn’t do anything about the many problems with traits and all, though. It would also be yet another musthave we could add to the already long list.

Not to be too much a stickler to my previous post, but the healing signet heals more per second that the elite signet of the guard. Would you be okay with the healing signet being turned into an elite instead of utility if it got the same kind of burst heal that the guard’s elite got?

The problem has always been the very limited amount of “ulitities” such as blocks, evades, regen, teleports, instant stuff or anything like that coming from actual weapon skills or class mechanics and not your utility choices.

Those calaculations of the entire amount of possible passive healing do sound crazy on paper but they don’t consider the limitations you run into:

You have to pick between Healing Singet or To the Limit, three utility shouts or two shouts and a regen banner.
You need to decide whether you can actually go for shouts without Endure Pain or Balance Stance these days.
You will have to pick something like Defense+Tactics+Discipline and then Healing Signet+Shake it Off+Banner+Balance Stance to get all these stustain options at once.
Leaving each one of them at 1/4 or 1/3 of their full potential.

Look at the entire picture here. Your options for sustain actually exclude eachother or at least weaken the effectiveness of a second or third form of sustain you try to include in your build. What we actually need to see is the combination of a few of these sustain options ( combination of traits, skill type changes, rework to banners, etc.) to ever come close to what other classes can do.

All that math was just to point out that the ‘free’ passive heal the guards get is not worth pointing at as anything special… unless a lot gets invested into it.

In my experience with this particular game, any useful healing of any kind, sustained OR burst, requires it to come from multiple sources. You can’t depend on a single healing skill, or trait line, or whatever. And to do that you have to give something up (usually damage potential or versatility). It is really endemic to the game.

So, yeah, to get all that healing you’re going to have to get it from some/many/all of those sources you pointed out… and doing that you’re going to be giving up other things you could be doing.

Yes it effects all healing but it hurt HS worse because it reduces each tick then does enough damage on top of that to soak up almost all of the remaining healing

I agree that builds should have condi cleanse but that part of the problem with warrior. They only have 3 non traited condi cleanses. 2 of them (mending and signet of stamina ) are pretty lack luster.

Over time something similar could be said about any burst healing: poison nerfs the effectiveness of that healing, and therefore makes it difficult for it to cover for the additional amount of damage that it does once it’s ticked a few times.

Another perspective might be that your healing signet negates poison damage and other conditions, leaving you to use other options for any additional burst healing you require. In this way you’re viewing it as what your skill does to others, and not what others are doing to your skill. At least to me it makes a difference.

~EW

P.S. A conclusion/realization I’ve come to about GW2 is that it’s built so all skills feel/are mediocre until you invest a lot into them with stats, traits, sigils, runes, etc. You can make nearly everything awesome, but it will always come at the cost of other things staying mediocre or even becoming worthless. Healing signet is mediocre out-of-the-box… just like nearly everything else.

(edited by EphemeralWallaby.7643)

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Posted by: dominik.9721

dominik.9721

If you really wonder why warrior get no update, just go seek anet’s twitch and seek for guild chat(s), and find short moment of meeting that is usually being held with famous team player like Phantaram and vermilion and etc.

Ah online and his superficial knowledge is back. Throwing some names into the cup to look important and wise.
Vermillion for example has warrior mains. And btw. Vermillion is a team not a player.

Thank your for your input, John Snow.

Grimkram [sS]

(edited by dominik.9721)

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Posted by: Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318

if u go cleansing ire+healing signet+signet of rage and are a bit skillfull with managing your adreline equip a shield or some blocks, U can actually have a decent healing.

I think warrior doesn’t need many buffs to actual healing, rather more condi removal and stability. but have it tailored so that cleansing ire so that it completely replaces spiked armour. and for rousing resiliance instead remove 1 condition whenver u break out of a stun and keep the same toughness and healing bonus. If that’s too powerfull. get 4 seconds of resistance when u break out of a stun. keep the healing the same and the toughness. the resistance can still be stripped or corrupted so it’s not that kittenedly overpowered. People will then also be forced to run atleast 2 stunbreaks. And won’t be able to make use of the other cc skills or utilities that could deal damage.

dogged march should have the added effects of the warriors sprint trait line in discipline now that we a have bit more defence against condi’’s and a bit more access to our passive heals instead of increasing it. We can now actually make ballanced warriors builds and not go full yolo zerkerberker bunkerbuster, or kite me condi zerker.

no extra healing that will result in backlash of the community aka healing signet, just more passive defences against conditions in the form of resistance and reduced cooldowns and or immunities.

also for the love of modremoth remove the kitten resistance on berserker stance it was completel y unneeded. with these changes have on outright immunity to conditions.

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Posted by: Henry.5713

Henry.5713

If this is about PvP at a good level…

I’m one of those hated PvEers (and some WvW), so much of what I state is going to be colored by that. Sorry.

Not trying to hate on PvE players. I simply assumed he was talking about PvP with a topic like this. Warriors do indeed have a serious sustain problem there in the current Meta. That isn’t the case for PvE, though.

Sorry, if gave the wrong impression.

ArenaNet could turn healing signet into a normal utility signet to make room for any of the active healing skills. It would finally allow for a combination of good passive healing as well as a powerful burst healing skill.
That seems like a really cheap and easy fix even if a pretty effective one. Wouldn’t do anything about the many problems with traits and all, though. It would also be yet another musthave we could add to the already long list.

Not to be too much a stickler to my previous post, but the healing signet heals more per second that the elite signet of the guard. Would you be okay with the healing signet being turned into an elite instead of utility if it got the same kind of burst heal that the guard’s elite got?

Actually, interesting idea. That would make it the most powerful warrior elite skill by a mile (in PvP). Also, your utility slots are more important than your elite slot in the current meta. Much rather have a free utility slot than Rage Signet, Banner or even Head Butt.