why nerf the class?
They dont necessarily have to nerf the class. They could just make the other classes stronger so that they are as viable as the warrior. AS of now in tPvP almost every match is either a full team of warriors vs warriors, or warriors/mesmers with the occasional necro.
May as well call the game Warriors vs Mesmers rather then Guild wars
They dont necessarily have to nerf the class. They could just make the other classes stronger so that they are as viable as the warrior.
You need to be VERY careful doing this, because it’ll quickly lead to power creep, and power creep ruins games… and is hard to get rid of once it appears, unless you’re willing to potentially alienate players.
..this is actually what a warrior is like, five knuckle deep up your butt with no other way’s to the job but the dirty way.
Warriors are the colonoscopy police.
remember when necros were the shizz and everybody rolled one? Same thing is happening with warriors now. If you nerf the warrior you’ll have to nerf the necro to. It’s the reason warriors got buffed in the first place cus the class use to be a joke.
What they need to do is nerf all of the OP builds on each profession and then work on making builds that require skill, not this spammy crap we have in the current meta.
thiefhitfor2kbetternerf
all is vain
all is vain
i wonder how many people realize that engineers can get the exact same level of movement immunity that warriors can get?
@ Fiorrello
Eles too. But then again, ele’s aren’t really in a good place I think.
What they need to do is nerf all of the OP builds on each profession and then work on making builds that require skill, not this spammy crap we have in the current meta.
Define “skill.” Don’t be vague.
What they need to do is nerf all of the OP builds on each profession and then work on making builds that require skill, not this spammy crap we have in the current meta.
Define “skill.” Don’t be vague.
thiefhitfor2kbetternerf
all is vain
all is vain
What they need to do is nerf all of the OP builds on each profession and then work on making builds that require skill, not this spammy crap we have in the current meta.
Define “skill.” Don’t be vague.
Pizza I hope you don’t respond because you sir just got outplayed.
Säïnt
Another typical class player calling for a nerf because all of a sudden they cant face roll a class to the ground. These kind of toxic tread sld be lock and deleted.
i wonder how many people realize that engineers can get the exact same level of movement immunity that warriors can get?
Jes this 165 second stability is awesome on engineer, right.
Warriors outnumber engis 15 to 1 in this game for a reason. Maybe you ask one of those why? I used to main engi since beta, now i just play warrior in wvw like everyone else.
What they need to do is nerf all of the OP builds on each profession and then work on making builds that require skill, not this spammy crap we have in the current meta.
Define “skill.” Don’t be vague.
skill is playing the game well.
Well, that doesn’t tell anything.
The question is: what should it take to play the game well? Knowledge of the meta? High reflexes? Innovation within the builds? Coordination? How much each of these things should be important?
For example, should be fair a player with low reflexes might get on the top and defeat quicker foes with his strategical cunning and/or an original and well thought-out build?
You will never be able to know what an engineer is going to do next…
because he doesn’t know it himself
because he doesn’t know it himself
we used to be the underdogs…now we are gods…ok yeah we ARE gods, condi’s are a joke, half brained players can dodge burst…or use a shield…but all off them issues arent all the warrior’s fault.
Solution! REMOVE food buff’s in WvW by doing so yes warrior can still be very good at resisting condition’s/and mitigating dmg…but dont forget thats ALL we can do take it like a man and push forward…this is actually what a warrior is like, five knuckle deep up your butt with no other way’s to the job but the dirty way. so please Anet before nerfing Warrior…or ANY OTHER class start by removing food buff’s and tweak from that and i can guarantee the game would flow much better from Spvp to WvW and PvE, thats my 2cents i main Warrior and have got myself 100+ hours on ele/ranger aswell… yes i love the bunker’s
sure, dont nerf warriors, but put back all the nerfs to other classes then we are fine. Give confusion damage back to mesmers will be a start…
Sanctum of Rall
Pain Train Choo [Choo]
Mind Smack – Mesmer
Pain Train Choo [Choo]
Mind Smack – Mesmer
While I do agree with removing food buffs due to how badly they screw with balance a warrior nerf still needs to happen and it needs to be a proper one. Can the old warriors who have been here since day one honestly say they’re happy that the class they’ve invested so much time into learning has now been effectively rendered a complete joke?
I like to think that there’s a point when something is so hideously overpowered that the people using it actually start feeling embarrassed about it.
They dont necessarily have to nerf the class. They could just make the other classes stronger so that they are as viable as the warrior. AS of now in tPvP almost every match is either a full team of warriors vs warriors, or warriors/mesmers with the occasional necro.
May as well call the game Warriors vs Mesmers rather then Guild wars
I agree with you – other classes might needs a buff. But warriors are fine where they are. They are good overall – in most situations – but there is not one particular thing that they excel at – other classes outperform them at specific tasks.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
What they need to do is nerf all of the OP builds on each profession and then work on making builds that require skill, not this spammy crap we have in the current meta.
Define “skill.” Don’t be vague.
Pizza I hope you don’t respond because you sir just got outplayed.
Except he didn’t define anything. It’s exactly what I expected as a response; useless twaddle.
And folks like you and him wonder why ArenaNet “doesn’t listen” to “skilled players.”
For example, should be fair a player with low reflexes might get on the top and defeat quicker foes with his strategical cunning and/or an original and well thought-out build?
This is the kind of response I was aiming at.
“Skill” is a very vague and altogether useless word in the context of game balance decisions, because what “skill” is and isn’t varies from person to person.
Is having pure twitch reflexes “skill”? What about planning and leading a team? How do you determine which is more “skillful” than the other?
When you and your 10 buddies get rolled over by a group three times your size in WvW, which side is the more “skillful” side? You can say you and your buddies were more “skillful” because you were able to take some of them with you despite being grossly outnumbered, but what about the other guys?
They were smart enough to know that they’d need to significantly outnumber you in order to quickly take the objective before you can bring reinforcements over; isn’t that “skill” too?
Which is the greater “skill”? Which is the lesser? Is there a greater or lesser level of “skill” involved, or are they equal? If you don’t feel they’re equal, why don’t you feel they’re unequal?
I realize this kind of thought is a rarity among the PvP subset of MMORPG players (or seems to be, anyway), but it’d be pretty great if people would stop and think about what they’re saying before they say it.
(edited by PizzaSHARK.2741)
What they need to do is nerf all of the OP builds on each profession and then work on making builds that require skill, not this spammy crap we have in the current meta.
Define “skill.” Don’t be vague.
Pizza I hope you don’t respond because you sir just got outplayed.
Except he didn’t define anything. It’s exactly what I expected as a response; useless twaddle.
And folks like you and him wonder why ArenaNet “doesn’t listen” to “skilled players.”
For example, should be fair a player with low reflexes might get on the top and defeat quicker foes with his strategical cunning and/or an original and well thought-out build?
This is the kind of response I was aiming at.
“Skill” is a very vague and altogether useless word in the context of game balance decisions, because what “skill” is and isn’t varies from person to person.
Is having pure twitch reflexes “skill”? What about planning and leading a team? How do you determine which is more “skillful” than the other?
When you and your 10 buddies get rolled over by a group three times your size in WvW, which side is the more “skillful” side? You can say you and your buddies were more “skillful” because you were able to take some of them with you despite being grossly outnumbered, but what about the other guys?
They were smart enough to know that they’d need to significantly outnumber you in order to quickly take the objective before you can bring reinforcements over; isn’t that “skill” too?
Which is the greater “skill”? Which is the lesser? Is there a greater or lesser level of “skill” involved, or are they equal? If you don’t feel they’re equal, why don’t you feel they’re unequal?
I realize this kind of thought is a rarity among the PvP subset of MMORPG players (or seems to be, anyway), but it’d be pretty great if people would stop and think about what they’re saying before they say it.
It’d be great if you knew what you were saying before you said it too.
Skill :
a : the ability to use one’s knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance
b : dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/skill
It is about reflexes and moving fast – it is not something you can learn – it is something you develop through repetition and hard work.
You can’t read it off the internet – can’t copy it like a build and can’t mimic it. You either have it or you don’t.
Leading a group is not skill – it’s the ability to lead – Leadership – there’s a word for it.
Planning to have higher numbers is not skill – it is the ability to plan – planning.
Skill is strictly doing things fast- based on quick reflexes.
Buildcrafting for example doesn’t take skill – it takes mathematical talent, an ability to think things through logically, patience but not skill.
It’s something the slowest and worst player in the game can potentially do with the proper resources.
Though most people don’t get that.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
So ok, all you did was naming that different.
What about understanding which movement is best to execute against an enemy? For example, circle strafing is more effective against war or thief than just running away. Or knowing where to fight an enemy to be sure he can’t rely on his teleports. It doesn’t require much reflexes, but it requires you to be sure about what you are doing. But I have doubts it can be copied.
However, even if you name it differently from other things, why should it be rewarded more than others?
Even build crafting, either you have it or not. If you don’t have it, the enemy will recognize the build you copied and make you taste hell. If you play your own effective build, you have an advantage against skilled players, which respond on muscle memory. You can faceroll them just because you play differently than what they are used to see.
And considering definition a, one might say that also buildcrafting takes skill. You know traits like any other. But you have the ability to use your knowledge effectively, putting traits and stats together in a way that works, taking into account as much threats as possible.
You will never be able to know what an engineer is going to do next…
because he doesn’t know it himself
because he doesn’t know it himself
(edited by redslion.9675)
They dont necessarily have to nerf the class. They could just make the other classes stronger so that they are as viable as the warrior. AS of now in tPvP almost every match is either a full team of warriors vs warriors, or warriors/mesmers with the occasional necro.
May as well call the game Warriors vs Mesmers rather then Guild wars
I agree with you – other classes might needs a buff. But warriors are fine where they are. They are good overall – in most situations – but there is not one particular thing that they excel at – other classes outperform them at specific tasks.
Required for dungeon runs. Great WvW roamers, great WvW group play, good in PvP. If you’re average or above in every facet of the game then you’re not “fine”.
Skill is strictly doing things fast- based on quick reflexes.
Except… this doesn’t really work; your definition is far too narrow, and people are not using that narrow of a definition when they whine about “skill” problems.
If skill is nothing but fast, twitch reflexes and isn’t something that can be learned (wait, what? You can’t train yourself to react more quickly?), then… explain chess, poker, or virtually any other game where the emphasis is on pretty much everything but reaction speed.
Would you say that chess grandmasters have no “skill”? What about the folks that win the World Series of Poker?
Hell, what about guys and girls that win major Magic: The Gathering tournaments? What about someone that wins a game of Settlers of Catan?
Hell, even in games that are mostly about reaction speed, like Quake and UT, there’s still a significant amount of emphasis placed on things like map awareness and analyzing the opposing players’ playstyle, which isn’t related to or demanding of a player’s ability to have rapid reaction times.
Do you understand now when I’m saying that “skill” is too vague to be useful in discussion? Telling the developers to make the game more “skill” focused isn’t telling them anything that they can actually use.
Yeah, we get it – you don’t want noobs running around facerolling all those pro players (which begs the question of, if those players were as pro as you and they believe themselves to be, how are they losing to noobs?), so the game should be changed so that that can’t happen. But you aren’t providing any specifics or even useful information by going “just make the game more skill-based.”
Your definition is too narrow, and it’s like you’re intentionally doing that in an attempt to show up others by sardonically linking to a dictionary definition and going “nope, nope, it’s not there, therefore you’re wrong, lol kitten!”
(edited by PizzaSHARK.2741)
So ok, all you did was naming that different.
What about understanding which movement is best to execute against an enemy? For example, circle strafing is more effective against war or thief than just running away. Or knowing where to fight an enemy to be sure he can’t rely on his teleports. It doesn’t require much reflexes, but it requires you to be sure about what you are doing. But I have doubts it can be copied.
However, even if you name it differently from other things, why should it be rewarded more than others?
Even build crafting, either you have it or not. If you don’t have it, the enemy will recognize the build you copied and make you taste hell. If you play your own effective build, you have an advantage against skilled players, which respond on muscle memory. You can faceroll them just because you play differently than what they are used to see.
And considering definition a, one might say that also buildcrafting takes skill. You know traits like any other. But you have the ability to use your knowledge effectively, putting traits and stats together in a way that works, taking into account as much threats as possible.
What you described is knowledge about the game, the other class and experience. It is not skill.
Buildcrafting is not skill – you can copy a build off the internet and generally be more effective since 90% of players can’t figure out the optimal build for anything. But they can copy it and in time they can play it.
That however does not mean you can faceroll a skilled – muscle memory player. You are sadly mistaken.
If your build is unconventional chances are it is also suboptimal – since there are only a few builds for each class that are the best. So a player specced to defeat those builds that ALSO has good reflexes will dispatch you quickly.
Why? Because he can time his dodges right, and simply do things and react faster than you can. That’s skill.
Buildcrafting is not a reflex-related, repetition dependent action. It is a knowledge based logical building of a concept. These things are different.
It does require cognitive function – but it isn’t skill.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
They dont necessarily have to nerf the class. They could just make the other classes stronger so that they are as viable as the warrior. AS of now in tPvP almost every match is either a full team of warriors vs warriors, or warriors/mesmers with the occasional necro.
May as well call the game Warriors vs Mesmers rather then Guild wars
I agree with you – other classes might needs a buff. But warriors are fine where they are. They are good overall – in most situations – but there is not one particular thing that they excel at – other classes outperform them at specific tasks.
Required for dungeon runs. Great WvW roamers, great WvW group play, good in PvP. If you’re average or above in every facet of the game then you’re not “fine”.
There are no dungeon runs that REQUIRE warriors. No dungeon run requires one build.
They are good in WvW at zerging , and decent at roaming- anything else they do poorly. If WvW was less about zerging we would have a different situation.
PvP – they are a good choice.
They’re not however above average in every facet of the game.
Guardians for example are the ones that are – they ARE required for a good amount of content – Try doing FOTM 40+ without one and get back to me.
They are great in WVW and even better in sPVP ( due to awesome bunkering but also great DPS output and damage mitigation).
What about mesmers ?
They’re also REQUIRED for dungeons ( since most dungeons – especially FOTM have skips that require a mesmer).
They are REQUIRED in WvW since Veil and portal are crucial there ( moving golems, rushing zergs).
They’re dominant in sPVP.
See what I mean?
Warriors get outdamaged by Mes, ele and Guard and thief.
Warriors get outbunkered by Guard.
Warriors get outroamed by thief.
They can do a lot of things good – but they don’t excel at anything – like the classes above.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Skill is strictly doing things fast- based on quick reflexes.
Except… this doesn’t really work; your definition is far too narrow, and people are not using that narrow of a definition when they whine about “skill” problems.
If skill is nothing but fast, twitch reflexes and isn’t something that can be learned (wait, what? You can’t train yourself to react more quickly?), then… explain chess, poker, or virtually any other game where the emphasis is on pretty much everything but reaction speed.
Would you say that chess grandmasters have no “skill”? What about the folks that win the World Series of Poker?
Hell, what about guys and girls that win major Magic: The Gathering tournaments? What about someone that wins a game of Settlers of Catan?
Hell, even in games that are mostly about reaction speed, like Quake and UT, there’s still a significant amount of emphasis placed on things like map awareness and analyzing the opposing players’ playstyle, which isn’t related to or demanding of a player’s ability to have rapid reaction times.
Do you understand now when I’m saying that “skill” is too vague to be useful in discussion? Telling the developers to make the game more “skill” focused isn’t telling them anything that they can actually use.
Yeah, we get it – you don’t want noobs running around facerolling all those pro players (which begs the question of, if those players were as pro as you and they believe themselves to be, how are they losing to noobs?), so the game should be changed so that that can’t happen. But you aren’t providing any specifics or even useful information by going “just make the game more skill-based.”
Your definition is too narrow, and it’s like you’re intentionally doing that in an attempt to show up others by sardonically linking to a dictionary definition and going “nope, nope, it’s not there, therefore you’re wrong, lol kitten!”
I’m explaining what skill is.
The other part of the argument you’ve been having with someone else.
That’s what I see when I hear the word skill -because where I come from words mean things and that’s what skill means.
If you mean something else – say something else – and that’ll be it.
I’m not the one who said the game should be more " skill based " nor did I claim not to understand that a wider array of things is understood by " skill ". Just that this is wrong.
Skill means what I posted above. The rest of the things you’ve posted all fall under different definitions.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
That however does not mean you can faceroll a skilled – muscle memory player. You are sadly mistaken.
If your build is unconventional chances are it is also suboptimal – since there are only a few builds for each class that are the best. So a player specced to defeat those builds that ALSO has good reflexes will dispatch you quickly.
Ok, not facerolling, but throwing them off-balance. If my build is also good, I have a bit more chances than fighting them with a meta build.
However, this game has luckily a lot of build diversity. And we all agree more build diversity there is, the better. But the less build diversity there is, the more skill as you define it is important, right?
The problem of all of this is: how much every ability coming into play should be rewarded?
IMHO skill shouldn’t be the only focus, build diversity should always be as much as possible, and smart positioning should always be important.
You will never be able to know what an engineer is going to do next…
because he doesn’t know it himself
because he doesn’t know it himself
This is so stupid, i actually believed their non sense and make a meta build warrior in wvw. what is this a joke? 1st it does not do that much high of a damage, it never did.
2nd it’s dead when you see more then 3 people that are fully geared 80. as on my thief i can disengage OR even better i can bring one down before leaving.
cleansing ire simply doesn’t clean enough condi with all the condi meta, and zerker stance can easily be kit off in this huge open world, when in pvp, its more difficult.
and when you encounter a zerg, you are dead as well, on my thief i can easily leave without anyone touching me.
even the GS build is better then the meta pvp build of pvp, simply being the fact that it was the best build when warriors were free kills
what a waste of gil and laurels for getting them lyssa and sigils and ascended for nothing.
“i think it’s an underserved nerf. now we have to slot a stun breaker??”
“berserker stance clears all CC on you and you’re still immune to CC for 8 seconds”
-Excalibur.9748
“berserker stance clears all CC on you and you’re still immune to CC for 8 seconds”
-Excalibur.9748
(edited by Lighter.5631)
They dont necessarily have to nerf the class. They could just make the other classes stronger so that they are as viable as the warrior. AS of now in tPvP almost every match is either a full team of warriors vs warriors, or warriors/mesmers with the occasional necro.
May as well call the game Warriors vs Mesmers rather then Guild wars
I agree with you – other classes might needs a buff. But warriors are fine where they are. They are good overall – in most situations – but there is not one particular thing that they excel at – other classes outperform them at specific tasks.
Required for dungeon runs. Great WvW roamers, great WvW group play, good in PvP. If you’re average or above in every facet of the game then you’re not “fine”.
There are no dungeon runs that REQUIRE warriors.
They are required if you want to maximize party DPS. You can slog through a dungeon with any group all using cleric’s gear but why would you? So in the context of relative performance, they are “required”.
They dont necessarily have to nerf the class. They could just make the other classes stronger so that they are as viable as the warrior. AS of now in tPvP almost every match is either a full team of warriors vs warriors, or warriors/mesmers with the occasional necro.
May as well call the game Warriors vs Mesmers rather then Guild wars
I agree with you – other classes might needs a buff. But warriors are fine where they are. They are good overall – in most situations – but there is not one particular thing that they excel at – other classes outperform them at specific tasks.
Required for dungeon runs. Great WvW roamers, great WvW group play, good in PvP. If you’re average or above in every facet of the game then you’re not “fine”.
There are no dungeon runs that REQUIRE warriors.
They are required if you want to maximize party DPS. You can slog through a dungeon with any group all using cleric’s gear but why would you? So in the context of relative performance, they are “required”.
Top damage are now GS ele, thief, guardian , then warrior. if you have not being up to date.
“i think it’s an underserved nerf. now we have to slot a stun breaker??”
“berserker stance clears all CC on you and you’re still immune to CC for 8 seconds”
-Excalibur.9748
“berserker stance clears all CC on you and you’re still immune to CC for 8 seconds”
-Excalibur.9748
It is about reflexes and moving fast – it is not something you can learn – it is something you develop through repetition and hard work.
All those poor misguided SKILLED CRAFTSMEN. They should know only reflexes matter and skill is not something learned. Pity those SKILLED ELECTRICIAN will always be called something they are not.
/sarcasm
You sir, are a “deleted so I don’t get infracted”.
Next time, please include your full list of results instead of only those that highlight your propaganda.
3 : a learned power of doing something competently : a developed aptitude or ability <language skills>
Now lets look at a different source to broaden our understanding.
Ah yes, the good old free dictionary.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/skill
skill (skl)
n.
1. Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience. See Synonyms at ability.
2.
a. An art, trade, or technique, particularly one requiring use of the hands or body.
b. A developed talent or ability: writing skills.
3. Obsolete A reason; a cause.
Oh my, it seems that they update this dictionary with what forms have become obsolete how handy.
But first Another outlandish statement…..
Leading a group is not skill – it’s the ability to lead – Leadership – there’s a word for it.
Planning to have higher numbers is not skill – it is the ability to plan – planning.
Lets review our new awesome found set of definitions, something further down the line perhaps this time to, again, broaden our scope on what the entire meaning of the word skill is…
skill (skil) noun
1. cleverness at doing something, resulting either from practice or from natural ability. This job requires a lot of skill.
2. a job or activity that requires training and practice; an art or craft. the basic skills of reading and writing.?skilful adjective
having, or showing, skill. a skilful surgeon; It was very skilful of you to repair my bicycle.?skilfully adverb
?skilfulness noun
skilled adjective
(negative unskilled).
1. (of a person etc) having skill, especially skill gained by training. a skilled craftsman; She is skilled at all types of dressmaking.
2. (of a job etc) requiring skill. a skilled trade.skilful is spelt with -l- (not -ll-).
Well, I will be…. It seems skills means quite a few more things than the 2 you have listed, then continued on to degrade everyone with a skill based job. Good on you.
Leadership is a trained aspect. One both gained through learning and experience, or would you deny all of the military schools their right to skillful tactics on the battle field?
Maybe you should write West Point and inform them that they have been ill-informed all these long years since 1802?
Skill means a great deal of different things, in varying degrees and in varying ways. The English language is very hard to pin down on a single definition for a great deal of words. Below is a link that has a list of the most common words with multiple definitions. Please review this list as to not make such a fool hardy mistake as you have here.
http://www.sophia.org/tutorials/common-words-with-multiple-meanings
Skill means what I posted above. The rest of the things you’ve posted all fall under different definitions.
Then what definitions are you talking about? Because “skill” applies to many different things, and not all of those things are just muscle memory or reaction times, even within the context of gaming.
Again: what about games which require little to no emphasis on reaction time or muscle memory? Chess, poker, and many, many other games don’t place much if any emphasis on raw reaction speed or muscle memory, but surely you’d say that there is “skill” involved, right?
If not “skill”, then what?
Skill means what I posted above. The rest of the things you’ve posted all fall under different definitions.
Then what definitions are you talking about? Because “skill” applies to many different things, and not all of those things are just muscle memory or reaction times, even within the context of gaming.
Again: what about games which require little to no emphasis on reaction time or muscle memory? Chess, poker, and many, many other games don’t place much if any emphasis on raw reaction speed or muscle memory, but surely you’d say that there is “skill” involved, right?
If not “skill”, then what?
For example: Dark Souls doesn’t require much reflexes.
It’s actually slow paced, and mostly needs you to understand how the enemy attacks. Once you do this, you’ll realize you have all the time to dodge/counterattack
You will never be able to know what an engineer is going to do next…
because he doesn’t know it himself
because he doesn’t know it himself
They dont necessarily have to nerf the class. They could just make the other classes stronger so that they are as viable as the warrior. AS of now in tPvP almost every match is either a full team of warriors vs warriors, or warriors/mesmers with the occasional necro.
May as well call the game Warriors vs Mesmers rather then Guild wars
I agree with you – other classes might needs a buff. But warriors are fine where they are. They are good overall – in most situations – but there is not one particular thing that they excel at – other classes outperform them at specific tasks.
Required for dungeon runs. Great WvW roamers, great WvW group play, good in PvP. If you’re average or above in every facet of the game then you’re not “fine”.
There are no dungeon runs that REQUIRE warriors.
They are required if you want to maximize party DPS. You can slog through a dungeon with any group all using cleric’s gear but why would you? So in the context of relative performance, they are “required”.
Except eles and thieves are better if you want to maximize dps.
One warrior is the maximum you’ll ever need – if that.
Of course you have no idea.
@to the other posters – i was misinformed – i agree to your wider definition of skill.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”