Guild Wars 2

Exciton.8942:

nearlight.3064:

The torment spam will allow PU mesmers to kill much faster and pressure much faster.

They won’t even need PU, let alone a brain to win fights.

This is only ur speculation. How much faster will the damage pressure comes out? Have u done a calculation or have you already tested it out. How does the new scepter clone do compare to the staff clone?

The current reality is if u don’t have a brain and play pu condition, you are essentially just a troll not being able to accomplish anything.

http://www.twitch.tv/thelordhelseth/c/4965699

I’m taking helseth’s words on this issue. He says you won’t even need PU to be able to faceroll things. Anyway, yeah I haven’t done a calculation, but its basically too much torment for cleanses to keep up with.

I haven’t played in a month and won’t come back for a while but…
New changes are all absolutely broken.
Greatsword did not need buffs. but the new changes are money.
Scepter changes are Lol
Elasticity was a good change.

Interrupt Mantra is absolutely crazy now, aoe interrupt? Can you Say Cleave?
No Rezzing for Anyone, Ever? Stability?—Shattered.,
Eat Chaos storm + interrupt mantra halting strike damage.

Everyone will run it now. it’s Damage, its lockdown, you get two, its instant.

Exile.8160:

lol a PU can’t hold a point and take too long to kill anything it’s not a problem in competitive play

It doesn’t matter about the small percentage of people playing super competitive tPvP.

Many more people quit the game over 1v1 imbalances versus team imbalances.

Plus, they already mentioned adding non-point capture PvP, so it’s more important than ever to start balancing the classes for 1v1.

Guess what…if you balance the classes 1v1, then you are pretty much guaranteeing balance in team v team with the exception of a few niche abilities here and there.

When you make a class/build so OP in 1v1, then that’s when people conclude (rightfully so) that the game is just stupid because only a small percentage can ever play with the exact class combos and at the same high level needed where the 1v1 imbalances suddenly “evens out”.

Anybody with any sense can see that adding torment to an auto attack is about the dumbest thing imaginable.

Wait…scratch that…for a team of developers that concluded that Raid of Capricorn was too imba for hotjoins and needed to be deleted, but Skyhammer was just fine for competitive PvP…I guess I understand the logic of adding torment to the auto-attack an OP build/profession.

It’s also comical that they did a similar thing with Dhumfire, but at least it was a 30 point talent. It was nothing that Necros asked for or needed, much like this buff to PU…and guess what…they basically had to nerf it (and a bunch of other condition abilities on Necros) that it is now extinct.

Given the logic of the past…I guess this is just par for the course…/golfclap for consistency in bad logic

The survivability of pu condi mesmer is god mode status it kills other spec by outlasting them. It has decent condition pressure and its so freaking easy to play just rotate your skills.

let the age of Diamond Skin begin!

on a serious note though, this is gonna be mega strong, elasticity on staff clones is a stupendously large buff to the strongest clone.

anyone trying to claim that PU wont be able to cap points is seriously underestimating the power that this change will bring!

My friend used to far point assult with PU, he can’t cap point, but he can keep it from being capped, people who stay on point and aoes, will get tons of condi on them and die.

Seriously, please don’t multi buff the cancer. I like my mes, but this is way too large of a buff in the wrong area. Add in the IE buff, then see if it needs another buff after that.

nearlight.3064:

Exciton.8942:

nearlight.3064:

The torment spam will allow PU mesmers to kill much faster and pressure much faster.

They won’t even need PU, let alone a brain to win fights.

This is only ur speculation. How much faster will the damage pressure comes out? Have u done a calculation or have you already tested it out. How does the new scepter clone do compare to the staff clone?

The current reality is if u don’t have a brain and play pu condition, you are essentially just a troll not being able to accomplish anything.

http://www.twitch.tv/thelordhelseth/c/4965699

I’m taking helseth’s words on this issue. He says you won’t even need PU to be able to faceroll things. Anyway, yeah I haven’t done a calculation, but its basically too much torment for cleanses to keep up with.

Before you follow someone’s opinion to say something is brainless(well that build is brainless i agree with this part). Do some math and think about things yourself with logic .
Also before anyone start QQing “pu mesmer buff” while talking about torment on scepter .We could just ask anet to nerf pu trait alone .

And as a suggestion , i think scepter AA chain could be :first attack with random condition from chill/cripple/blind ,second attack with 2s torment and no torment for clones .Do this after pu nerf ,so mesmer could get a condition weapon set with some chasing ability from current useless scepter .

Lifestealer.4910:

Its really disgusting to have people defending this change. It doesn’t take a genius to see how much of a detriment if this change was to go through.

People want their cheese mode. It’s not easy enough to win or stalemate 1v1s on PU right now I guess…lol

Goodbye roaming and all mobility based classes and hello to the new ele war mesmer meta in all modes if torment auto attacks go live.

I was so ready to complain about this insane, over-the-top buff to scepter…. Instead I’m just going to roll a mesmer and shlt on you guys.

Also to the people saying it wont matter in organized pvp: How many people play organized pvp, 100 people? lol. Condi mesmer will absolutely massacre solo Q, were 95% of the population resies

As someone with a level 80 Mesmer who PvPs, please, PLEASE, do not go through with the scepter buffs. Putting so much Torment on auto attacks is a bad idea

This thread is dumb. Who cares about PU? It’s irrelevant. There are condi mesmer builds built for tpvp. The scepter buff will make these builds broken.

Liewec.2896:

let the age of Diamond Skin begin!

on a serious note though, this is gonna be mega strong, elasticity on staff clones is a stupendously large buff to the strongest clone.

anyone trying to claim that PU wont be able to cap points is seriously underestimating the power that this change will bring!

You may also see me arguing with the majority there that diamond skin was irrelevant. Seen and commented on most of the balance changes (even hammer warrior) and havn’t been wrong so far. Lets see if I’m wrong this time.

Cam Ron.4170:

I was so ready to complain about this insane, over-the-top buff to scepter…. Instead I’m just going to roll a mesmer and shlt on you guys.

Also to the people saying it wont matter in organized pvp: How many people play organized pvp, 100 people? lol. Condi mesmer will absolutely massacre solo Q, were 95% of the population resies

condi PU at SoloQ is laughable.

Someone is trying to get an overview of opinions in this thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Mesmer-Poll-Scepter-Auto-Attack-Torment

Let’s just put condition damage into perspective here folks.

It’s common to relate things to other things as to get a better grasp on how one thing is preforming against another thing. And the gold standard for evaluating condition damage is to compare the damage to stacks of bleeding. As bleeding is the smallest source of condi damage, has no secondary effects, and is very malleable in terms of damage.

Poison damage is equivalent to two stacks of bleeding. Only two. It’s pretty poor in terms of its source of damage. It’s saving grace, however, is its secondary effect. This is why poison damage is way more of a utility condition than a damaging conditon. It is also the reason why, with the release of the new traits, rangers get a stupid one (like many other classes got stupid new traits) which basically made poison damage deal 1 extra tick of bleeding. It bumps poison damage up by 50% (The product of 2 stacks of bleeding and 1.5 is 3). Nobody is going to take that grandmaster trait as poison damage is more of a utility condition than a damaging one – boo anet.

Now lets look at burning. Burning is roughly equal to 6 stacks of bleeding. THIS is some reliable damage. In guild wars 1, it was common to see a cripshot ranger spread poison around in a teamfight to generate pressure, but that’s all that poison did in that game – a reliable 4 ticks of degen. In GW2 that reliable source of pressure damage is Burning. It’s most commonly spread around in a teamfight via warrior combustive shot and guardian judges virtue.

Part of the problem with pindown, before it was given a way better tell, is that it applied 6 stacks of instant bleeding. They basically had an extra source of burning on top of the burning they already had. Part of the problem with dumbfire, was it was very easy for necros to build up 10 to 12 stacks of bleeding on top of the burning damage that dumbfire could do.

Now lets look at torment. Torment is a condition that is worth 1.5 times that of a stack of bleeding when the target is moving. This means 4 stacks. 4. 4 stacks. Let me reiterate. 4 stacks. 4 stacks of torment is equivalent to a full blast of burning damage.

Of course, the counter to torment is to simply not move right? Kappa

I would much prefer the mesmer to apply 12 stacks of bleeding easily than 6 stacks of bleeding and 4 stacks of torment. Torment is one of the hardest conditions to remove in this game.

if you dodge and create a clone.. it targets the closest enemy. not your target.. in anything but dueling this is just going to be a buff to garbage spash damage.. most likly targeting a pet turret or minion. in the rare case that you waste your time dueling a pu mesmer.. this is a buff.. but for the most part the only thing that matters is the actual attack torment. not the clone torment.

if they want to go 1v1 a bunker on point the bunker can just stand still cutting the torment damage in half.. and as far as condi builds attacking you.. i dont think pu is the one that is going to break the game.

PU has elements of all thief’s defensive Grandmaster traits; Shadow Rejuvenation; Resilience of Shadows, and Assassin’s Equilibrium (regen, protection, block/stab). When you have to compare PU to 3 GM traits…something is wrong. Either PU is OP or thief GM traits need a serious buff.

Fanta.8049:

I just can’t stand that guy Karl anymore .

he doesn’t work alone you know…
He is the one chosen to show is face on behalf of the balance team.

As a thief I’m also astonished by the changes they are making but I don’t blame Karl in particular, even though It is known that from all devs on the team he is the one o plays thief the most.

MIrra.3604:

PU has elements of all thief’s defensive Grandmaster traits; Shadow Rejuvenation; Resilience of Shadows, and Assassin’s Equilibrium (regen, protection, block/stab). When you have to compare PU to 3 GM traits…something is wrong. Either PU is OP or thief GM traits need a serious buff.

WTT PU to cheese auto cleaning conditions thief trait

Volrath.1473:

Fanta.8049:

I just can’t stand that guy Karl anymore .

he doesn’t work alone you know…
He is the one chosen to show is face on behalf of the balance team.

As a thief I’m also astonished by the changes they are making but I don’t blame Karl in particular, even though It is known that from all devs on the team he is the one o plays thief the most.

I can’t stand that guy mean everytime i see his faces ,it’s alway bad news like Pu mesmer here.

PU is manageable, perhaps less so for thief, but without perplexity runes they are fairly boring to fight, but not impossible. Trick to beating them is AoE conditions or direct damage. Iv’e fought this trash build for almost 16 months in wvw. They are annoying, irritating and tough. However they are not as cheesy as you’d want em to be. Yes torment will make them really strong, however that increase in dps still does not remove their complete inability to deal with consistent heavy condi pressure.

Trap ranger, nade engi, fresh air SF ele all shut down PU pretty effectively, irregardless of settings. However you need to know the basics of PU/stealth counter to have any chance at all

Prysin.8542:

PU is manageable, perhaps less so for thief, but without perplexity runes they are fairly boring to fight, but not impossible. Trick to beating them is AoE conditions or direct damage. Iv’e fought this trash build for almost 16 months in wvw. They are annoying, irritating and tough. However they are not as cheesy as you’d want em to be. Yes torment will make them really strong, however that increase in dps still does not remove their complete inability to deal with consistent heavy condi pressure.

Trap ranger, nade engi, fresh air SF ele all shut down PU pretty effectively, irregardless of settings. However you need to know the basics of PU/stealth counter to have any chance at all

Except those classes will lose easily to a condition PU mesmer built for dueling even now (especially engi; Arcane Thievery says hi).

I mean, seriously how many properly built, skilled players have ever run a PU in WvW?

The only thing that deals well with them are condition necros, (by which i mean a top 50 necro has beaten me on one right now), however it could be down to my inexperience mitigating condition transfer/knowing the best times to condi spike.

People seem to think the PU trait means you have to run around cloaked while your illusions auto attack. Post patch you’ll be able to build a high sustain clone death condition transfering monster if thats your thing.

you seem to be under the illusion of ALL of WvW being scrubs. Which is true, same goes for sPvP/tPvP. Unless you happen to be within top 300 everyone is pretty much scrubs or worse then scrubs. So all those s/tPvP players who think “PvP is da kings of figting” should get a reality check.

Anyway, yes some PU mesmers relies, almost exclusively on clones/phantasms to do damage. Most do attack on their own in some form or another.

And no, trap ranger will not easily lose, unless the ranger player is a scrub or completely void of a brain. Same goes for SF ele.
It all boils down to anticipating stealth movements. Which in PvP is “hard” because almost nobody relies on cheesy stealth. In WvW it will be required if you ever want to try to roam. In almost 1.5 years of solo/small man group roaming i can almost count on two hands the number of thieves and mesmers i’ve met NOT using stealth.
Once you learn how people relying on stealth thinks, its not that hard to nail them. Granted, you can still get outplayed.

Prysin.8542:

you seem to be under the illusion of ALL of WvW being scrubs. Which is true, same goes for sPvP/tPvP. Unless you happen to be within top 300 everyone is pretty much scrubs or worse then scrubs. So all those s/tPvP players who think “PvP is da kings of figting” should get a reality check.

Anyway, yes some PU mesmers relies, almost exclusively on clones/phantasms to do damage. Most do attack on their own in some form or another.

And no, trap ranger will not easily lose, unless the ranger player is a scrub or completely void of a brain. Same goes for SF ele.
It all boils down to anticipating stealth movements. Which in PvP is “hard” because almost nobody relies on cheesy stealth. In WvW it will be required if you ever want to try to roam. In almost 1.5 years of solo/small man group roaming i can almost count on two hands the number of thieves and mesmers i’ve met NOT using stealth.
Once you learn how people relying on stealth thinks, its not that hard to nail them. Granted, you can still get outplayed.

How does a trap ranger beat a clone death PU mesmer? Explain to me this?

Actually don’t bother.

And you’re probably referring to that moronic 20/20/30 build some commander thought up…

Phaeton.9582:

Prysin.8542:

you seem to be under the illusion of ALL of WvW being scrubs. Which is true, same goes for sPvP/tPvP. Unless you happen to be within top 300 everyone is pretty much scrubs or worse then scrubs. So all those s/tPvP players who think “PvP is da kings of figting” should get a reality check.

Anyway, yes some PU mesmers relies, almost exclusively on clones/phantasms to do damage. Most do attack on their own in some form or another.

And no, trap ranger will not easily lose, unless the ranger player is a scrub or completely void of a brain. Same goes for SF ele.
It all boils down to anticipating stealth movements. Which in PvP is “hard” because almost nobody relies on cheesy stealth. In WvW it will be required if you ever want to try to roam. In almost 1.5 years of solo/small man group roaming i can almost count on two hands the number of thieves and mesmers i’ve met NOT using stealth.
Once you learn how people relying on stealth thinks, its not that hard to nail them. Granted, you can still get outplayed.

How does a trap ranger beat a clone death PU mesmer? Explain to me this?

Actually don’t bother.

And you’re probably referring to that moronic 20/20/30 build some commander thought up…

It is obvious you are not very well versed with how traps, drakes and axe aa work. So, i won’t further iterate on how it is possible. It just is, but it takes time

Prysin.8542:

Phaeton.9582:

Prysin.8542:

you seem to be under the illusion of ALL of WvW being scrubs. Which is true, same goes for sPvP/tPvP. Unless you happen to be within top 300 everyone is pretty much scrubs or worse then scrubs. So all those s/tPvP players who think “PvP is da kings of figting” should get a reality check.

Anyway, yes some PU mesmers relies, almost exclusively on clones/phantasms to do damage. Most do attack on their own in some form or another.

And no, trap ranger will not easily lose, unless the ranger player is a scrub or completely void of a brain. Same goes for SF ele.
It all boils down to anticipating stealth movements. Which in PvP is “hard” because almost nobody relies on cheesy stealth. In WvW it will be required if you ever want to try to roam. In almost 1.5 years of solo/small man group roaming i can almost count on two hands the number of thieves and mesmers i’ve met NOT using stealth.
Once you learn how people relying on stealth thinks, its not that hard to nail them. Granted, you can still get outplayed.

How does a trap ranger beat a clone death PU mesmer? Explain to me this?

Actually don’t bother.

And you’re probably referring to that moronic 20/20/30 build some commander thought up…

It is obvious you are not very well versed with how traps, drakes and axe aa work. So, i won’t further iterate on how it is possible. It just is, but it takes time

That’s my point. 1v1 if you want to aoe them, you’re forced off point. In a team fight you’re not only going to kill your allies doing that, as well as the traps providing a really telegraphed source for condition transfer.

But yeah maybe I just don’t know enough about axe AA.

dont forget, shatter is getting an all arround buff also, which wasnt needed in pvp, just in wvw really.

Mesmers didn’t need a buff at all. It was fine. Very very very strong. But can be countered at times. If anything the damage is a little OP currently.

Adding torment to scepter auto is really, imo, the worst projected change in the game thus far. I think it easily outdoes any other change including the creation of s/d thief and dhuumfire.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Mesmers didn’t need a buff at all. It was fine. Very very very strong.

Your opinion is very important for us

shimmerless.4560:

Anton.1769:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Mesmers didn’t need a buff at all. It was fine. Very very very strong.

Your opinion is very important for us

If he plays nothing but a Necromancer his opinion is going to be distorted by the experience. In those circumstances of course you’d think Mesmer damage is too strong. In truth Mesmer damage has never changed at all, and it was in large part the community who complained about sword/focus until eventually Mesmers gave in and took up staff/GS, which fares stronger against classes weak to kiting like Engineers and Necromancers. But all of this history and detail gets washed away.

Of course part of me wishes they’d listen to me and me alone, but really I wish the devs wouldn’t listen to the forums so much at all. It is too chaotic and subjective to get any kind of signal from the noise here.

it was sarcasm

Stealing away and let AI do the rest of dmg ,sick more than the cancer.Sry but even hambow still have high skill required than this and 333 condi thief.