(edited by Isabis.9561)
Aren't thiefs an unfinished profession?
Sure it isn’t, but some more fundamental parts of this game have not been finished yet. So let’s wait a bit.
Pff… they already show us “future of sPvP” at this “blog”. One suggest- dont even think it will change.
PvP players masive sell game at ebay/allegro, reason? Arenanet dont have idea how make nice (not even good) pvp game. Its more MOBA than TRUE MMO PVP game.
Sure it isn’t, but some more fundamental parts of this game have not been finished yet. So let’s wait a bit.
Mhmm, I cannot see anything more fundamental in a MMO game than one whole class.
Things
Did you try any other builds at all? Or did you go a glass cannon build then spam heartseeker?
Things
Did you try any other builds at all? Or did you go a glass cannon build then spam heartseeker?
I’ve tried power and condi builds. It’s either:
- spam HS 90% of the fight
- spam PW 80% of the fight, use infiltrators strike if kited
- spam Death Blossom 80% of the fight, use dodge when low initiative
HS build is total spamfest of one ability, really really rarely anything else is used.
PW and DB builds are spam as well, with occasional infiltrators strike and dodge (if dodge can even be qualified as ability), cloak and dagger – basically never used
Things
Did you try any other builds at all? Or did you go a glass cannon build then spam heartseeker?
I’ve tried power and condi builds. It’s either:
- spam HS 90% of the fight
- spam PW 80% of the fight, use infiltrators strike if kited
- spam Death Blossom 80% of the fight, use dodge when low initiativeHS build is total spamfest of one ability, really really rarely anything else is used.
PW and DB builds are spam as well, with occasional infiltrators strike and dodge (if dodge can even be qualified as ability), cloak and dagger – basically never used
If all you did was spam those abilities repeatedly, then you’re fighting bads. If you were fighting decent players, then hell, bring on the HS nerfs. Idc. Many times I’ve jumped someone with a combination into backstab, however they ended up being tanky. So, I just dance around them using combinations of auto attack, shadowstep, scorpion wire, CnD, dodge roll to keep up with them, backstab.
I dont win them all but I do win most fights. Nerf HS down to auto attack level, just leave the <50% and <25% where they are. <25% and gap closer is all I use it for anyways.
meh, I can’t master the thief, much, but I know two things F1 to close, hit 5, hit 1, then HS if they move away
honestly I’m not all that good, but I get about an 80% success rate.
The core issue is Initiative.
Whereas cooldowns force other classes to vary their skill use, Thieves don’t have that limiting factor. Instead they share the universal limiter that encourages them to only use their most effective attack, rather than mixing it up.
When I saw how thiefs play at start, I thought “ehh, this looks like an alpha or beta of the final product, this profession must have something more than spamming one ability like all these thiefs do, I doubt this is all the profession has to offer” and then I tried one. I quickly realized it’s actually all I’ve got to do basically, spam the strongest ability most of the time.
Didn’t developers realize at some point while making the profession that this is clearly broken? If I was in a dev team personally, I’d immediately suggest to remake the profession playstyle if I saw this happening, wouldn’t everyone with common sense?I’ve shown GW2 to a friend today and the first thing he noticed is how stupid the thief prof is designed, he said: “is this all? I just spam this strongest ability all the time and that’s the most effective way of dealing dmg, this is stupid”, I answered “yea, basically that’s it, u have this if u wanna stealth but it’s hard to hit, yadayada, but yea that’s basically it”.
I just can’t understand how did thief go live in this state, prof is so dull… Rangers aren’t much better either.
the idea is that because of our ini system our other abilities are used situationally as utility. i think D/D is a bit thin but D/P (and S/P) have head shot and black powder, two GREAT utility skills that i use quite often.
you know what happens when i face a thief that just “spams” there damage move on me? they die, every freaking time. even the backstab thieves with that stupid glass cannon build. they whif it and i laugh, cuz my reaction time is good enough to put down that black powder before they hit me with there teleport+backstab combo
it does have some issues, at face value its easy to spam
but honestly most classes are NOT the wonderous testaments to skill. sure things like elemental and some engineers have a good learning curve but a lot of classes its just cycling thru there best damaging abilities at the time, maybe hitting a bility that will buff the next one (oh wait thieves do that too lol)
thieves may have a low starting floor, but most classes arent much better, they just have Cds instead of ini.
now once you actually learn a thief, learn its weapon specs utility, outfit your utility skills with actual utility skills and not sigils. and you learn how to activate your own combo fields (poison, smoke, and dark) suddenly the “skill” required to play a thief shoots up. my weapon set has great utility and i have 4 different combo finishers (shortbow auto, shortbow blast, HS leap, and daggerstorm whirl) that i can use.
im not saying combo fields and finishers are exclusive to thieves, but i think they can create a combo and execute a finisher more readily then most classes, and it spices things up nicely.
Things
Did you try any other builds at all? Or did you go a glass cannon build then spam heartseeker?
I’ve tried power and condi builds. It’s either:
- spam HS 90% of the fight
- spam PW 80% of the fight, use infiltrators strike if kited
- spam Death Blossom 80% of the fight, use dodge when low initiativeHS build is total spamfest of one ability, really really rarely anything else is used.
PW and DB builds are spam as well, with occasional infiltrators strike and dodge (if dodge can even be qualified as ability), cloak and dagger – basically never used
It is sad that you actually think this way…There are more builds for thieves that don’t revolve around these builds. If you are spamming HS then you are bad and should feel bad. HS is avoidable and the damage above 50% is pathetic.
“You’re either a Noob or a Pro your entire life, that’s life”
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IGN – Kinjax // World – Anvil Rock
IGN – InTheseDays // World – Anvil Rock
The core issue is Initiative.
Whereas cooldowns force other classes to vary their skill use, Thieves don’t have that limiting factor. Instead they share the universal limiter that encourages them to only use their most effective attack, rather than mixing it up.
This.
I’ve tried power and condi builds. It’s either:
- spam HS 90% of the fight
- spam PW 80% of the fight, use infiltrators strike if kited
- spam Death Blossom 80% of the fight, use dodge when low initiative
Give Sword/Dagger a try then. I’d say that when it’s played right, it’s more effective than all of the above. Let us know what skills you’d spam with it, hehe.
When I saw how thiefs play at start, I thought “ehh, this looks like an alpha or beta of the final product, this profession must have something more than spamming one ability like all these thiefs do, I doubt this is all the profession has to offer” and then I tried one. I quickly realized it’s actually all I’ve got to do basically, spam the strongest ability most of the time.
Didn’t developers realize at some point while making the profession that this is clearly broken? If I was in a dev team personally, I’d immediately suggest to remake the profession playstyle if I saw this happening, wouldn’t everyone with common sense?I’ve shown GW2 to a friend today and the first thing he noticed is how stupid the thief prof is designed, he said: “is this all? I just spam this strongest ability all the time and that’s the most effective way of dealing dmg, this is stupid”, I answered “yea, basically that’s it, u have this if u wanna stealth but it’s hard to hit, yadayada, but yea that’s basically it”.
I just can’t understand how did thief go live in this state, prof is so dull… Rangers aren’t much better either.
the idea is that because of our ini system our other abilities are used situationally as utility. i think D/D is a bit thin but D/P (and S/P) have head shot and black powder, two GREAT utility skills that i use quite often.
you know what happens when i face a thief that just “spams” there damage move on me? they die, every freaking time. even the backstab thieves with that stupid glass cannon build. they whif it and i laugh, cuz my reaction time is good enough to put down that black powder before they hit me with there teleport+backstab combo
it does have some issues, at face value its easy to spam
but honestly most classes are NOT the wonderous testaments to skill. sure things like elemental and some engineers have a good learning curve but a lot of classes its just cycling thru there best damaging abilities at the time, maybe hitting a bility that will buff the next one (oh wait thieves do that too lol)
thieves may have a low starting floor, but most classes arent much better, they just have Cds instead of ini.
now once you actually learn a thief, learn its weapon specs utility, outfit your utility skills with actual utility skills and not sigils. and you learn how to activate your own combo fields (poison, smoke, and dark) suddenly the “skill” required to play a thief shoots up. my weapon set has great utility and i have 4 different combo finishers (shortbow auto, shortbow blast, HS leap, and daggerstorm whirl) that i can use.
im not saying combo fields and finishers are exclusive to thieves, but i think they can create a combo and execute a finisher more readily then most classes, and it spices things up nicely.
Oh, black powder, as a backstab thief, I hate that as much as I enjoy it. I’ve played D/P before as well. If I run into someone running that I just switch to shortbow and clusterbomb them. But yeah, blind is a great counter to backstab Thief. Hilarious when you use it against HS spammers. Hit Black Powder and just stand there while they blow their load.
Sometimes I like to mix up my spec from 25/30/0/15/0 to 20/30/20/0/0 and take the blind when stealthing trait. Won me a 1 vs 2 against 2 HS spammers. Hilarious when they spam HS, miss the first one, continue to spam it until they run into a wall, and then get hit with a backstab and die. XD
I’ve tried power and condi builds. It’s either:
- spam HS 90% of the fight
- spam PW 80% of the fight, use infiltrators strike if kited
- spam Death Blossom 80% of the fight, use dodge when low initiativeHS build is total spamfest of one ability, really really rarely anything else is used.
PW and DB builds are spam as well, with occasional infiltrators strike and dodge (if dodge can even be qualified as ability), cloak and dagger – basically never used
first thing, HS build is not a real build. it was merely possible to be used (inneffective in itself ubt people still died to it) with previous damage calculations, if you took a dagger mainhand and thought (hey, HS must be the move i spam for damage) your a terrible player and need your head checked.
dagger mainhand builds are either about deathblossom, or backstab. both require entirely different stats and skill choices.
the fact that you think you only use PW in a PW build is abokittenly helarious, good luck and hitting anyone with a ounce of brain in there head. you HAVE to pair a Cd with PW to land it, or find someone thats afk/just that bad of a player.
DB build, there is a trolly DB build that uses 2 double dagger sets and tries to dodge/DB forever. ill give you that one, but most intelligent DB thieves dont use that one. they use DB for evasion and to get suitable amount of bleed stacks then typically switch to shortbow to kite.
its not our fault you took a thief and decided to not actually learn how to play them.
You guys are trying to make it sound complicated, but I got over 300 games as a thief and I know it’s not. I have at least 50 games with every profession and thief is by far the most spam-oriented profession of all.
There are 3 most common specs: HS, PW and DB, lately there are more backstab thiefs, but anyway, these 3 builds are basically spamming of one ability, it is REALLY NOT that complicated as you make it sound. I assume you will think this now: “ok, this guy is a total noob, he is probably just spamming these abilities and gets owned often”. No, I’m not a total noob, I actually achieved a extremely high rating in the last two games I’ve played. Thief is really that dull compared to others.
You guys are trying to make it sound complicated, but I got over 300 games as a thief and I know it’s not. I have at least 50 games with every profession and thief is by far the most spam-oriented profession of all.
There are 3 most common specs: HS, PW and DB, lately there are more backstab thiefs, but anyway, these 3 builds are basically spamming of one ability, it is REALLY NOT that complicated as you make it sound. I assume you will think this now: “ok, this guy is a total noob, he is probably just spamming these abilities and gets owned often”. No, I’m not a total noob, I actually achieved a extremely high rating in the last two games I’ve played. Thief is really that dull compared to others.
HS is NOT A BUILD. its like saying someone uses only Cloak and dagger lulz. people who try and make HS there main damage moves, especially after nerf, fail so hard its not even funny.
PW needs to be paired with a CD to be halfway reliable, you will not kill a competent player without that.
and again, just cuz you find the spammiest version of DB and use it doesnt mean there arent other more effective ways of playing it.
i never said thieves didnt “spam” its how the calss is freaking designed. every spec has mainly one damage move, this is the move the thief will use when they want to damage someone. if you dont like it, go play something else.
yes i do think your a bad player, especially if you try and use a HS “build”. I didnt think people still used it like that since the nerf, some people dont get the hint, hell above 50% youll do better damage autoattacking.
HS is NOT A BUILD. its like saying someone uses only Cloak and dagger lulz. people who try and make HS there main damage moves, especially after nerf, fail so hard its not even funny.
PW needs to be paired with a CD to be halfway reliable, you will not kill a competent player without that.
and again, just cuz you find the spammiest version of DB and use it doesnt mean there arent other more effective ways of playing it.
i never said thieves didnt “spam” its how the calss is freaking designed. every spec has mainly one damage move, this is the move the thief will use when they want to damage someone. if you dont like it, go play something else.
yes i do think your a bad player, especially if you try and use a HS “build”. I didnt think people still used it like that since the nerf, some people dont get the hint, hell above 50% youll do better damage autoattacking.
Yea ok, I’m pretty much done with you.
DB spamming condi build is the best thief build by far and I’d place high bets onto that. Most effective way of playing it is spamming DB and dodge, extremely dull.
“Spam” design is a broken design.
Go try playing a necro or ele and fight HS thief then come here and say HS is not a build, you will get demolished, I’m 99% sure.
HS is NOT A BUILD. its like saying someone uses only Cloak and dagger lulz. people who try and make HS there main damage moves, especially after nerf, fail so hard its not even funny.
PW needs to be paired with a CD to be halfway reliable, you will not kill a competent player without that.
and again, just cuz you find the spammiest version of DB and use it doesnt mean there arent other more effective ways of playing it.
i never said thieves didnt “spam” its how the calss is freaking designed. every spec has mainly one damage move, this is the move the thief will use when they want to damage someone. if you dont like it, go play something else.
yes i do think your a bad player, especially if you try and use a HS “build”. I didnt think people still used it like that since the nerf, some people dont get the hint, hell above 50% youll do better damage autoattacking.
Yea ok, I’m pretty much done with you.
DB spamming condi build is the best thief build by far and I’d place high bets onto that. Most effective way to play it is spamming DB and dodge, extremely dull.
“Spam” design is a broken design.
Go try playing a necro or ele and fight HS thief then come here and say HS is not a build, you will get demolished, I’m 99% sure.
i disagree with you, provide reasons, and you stop the debate, just proof you have nothing to back you up.
so you want to compare arguably one of the weakest classes (necro) with one of the highest learning curves in the game (ele) and then get back to you? above 75% it does less then autoattack, above 50% it might match autoattack but the time between attacks is slower then just autoing, below 25% it hits hard.
it has no evasion frames, tho it does close a gap when not snared. what this means is the thief would just use HS to keep the gap close and used autoattack (which when dagger mainhand provides a poison debuff) youd die even faster.
ive played the DB condition build sir, both ways, spam double daggers and the one with shortbow in second set. its powerful, and with double daggers it is spammy as hell. but strongest? hardly, stop using hotjoin to base the skill level and effectiveness of skills and players please.
you can argue that “spam” is broken by design, but its how anet designed thieves, what you want me to do when i want to damage someone? use black powder? lol, or maybe headshot? ironically it does extremely low damage despite the name. or maybe shadowshot, my gap closer?
heck a lot of the time ill kill someone with my autoattack instead of HS cuz its faster then leaping thru the air for one hit.
and again if you lose to a thief that spams HS, a move, that until 25% is less effective then standing there autoattacking you, that has abokittenly no evasion frames, and is negated by something as simple as a cripple effect (which necros and eles have access to) then thats on you.
i do wanna play a necro tho, they look fun.
You don’t have a good general knowledge of professions in PvP, you maybe know something about thiefs, but that’s it. I don’t want to discuss with you because you are ignorant for the most part of the game and partly because you are full of prejudice.
Feels like arguing with an orthodox christian or something. You mostly agreed that thief is a spammy prof (“i never said thieves didnt “spam” its how the calss is freaking designed. every spec has mainly one damage move, this is the move the thief will use when they want to damage someone. if you dont like it, go play something else.”, “you can argue that “spam” is broken by design, but its how anet designed thieves, what you want me to do when i want to damage someone? use black powder? lol, or maybe headshot? ironically it does extremely low damage despite the name. or maybe shadowshot, my gap closer?”). This was the point of my thread, I don’t want to argue about some other things with you because of the reasons I stated above.
i have general knowledge of 4 professions ty. and a spattering on everything else.
i simply have spent more time with thieves, i freely admit i know more about them then other professions.
prejudice? explain that please.
the point of you thread was flame bait asking if it was a unfinished profession. your reasoning is because in order for a thief to do damage they mainly have one skill.
i counter its how the class is designed, right or wrong, it is.
The problem people are having is they pick up the class, and immediatly start spamming giving little thought. yes ini allows it, but it doesnt promote it. the strength of it is allowing to circumvent the CD useage not for damage (we only have one damage move like i said) but for utility.
the ability to put down back to back head shots, or black powders, etc.
yes many thieves just spam there damage, many, especially in hot join or vs someone who greatly overestimates there skill, this works.
you take a player that knows the ini system beyond “lul spam damage lul” and you end up with a much more potent profession that can impact the playing field much more effecitvely then the upteen heartseekers some noob would have to spam in order to kill someone.
I do (have posted it in other threads) have an idea that would at least put a detriment on it. whenever a thief uses a spell back to back, it increases its ini cost by 1 or 2.
so you end up with a HS spammer that can spam HS about 8 times before he has to wait, thats a total of 24 ini spent. even with just a 1 ini cost each time that would lower the number of HS he can cast back to back to. 34+5+6=18, not enough ini to cast it again.
just by increasing the ini cost of the skill being spammed back to back by 1 each time you go from 8 HS to 4. yes they can use a skill in between, but then they arent spamming