Boon Hate
It’s the MMO cycle, you will never stop people whining for one reason or another
It may help the game in terms of balance because it wont effect PVE that much while making it an effective pvp balancing tool. I am not for it or against it… But adding a whole new mechanic seems pretty “knee jerk” to me. They talk about taking things slow in terms of balancing to be safe and then dont buff warrior or nerf ele. They do the opposite and change the quickness mechanic. (Yes quickness needed to be fixed not “knee jerked”). They “knee jerked” the quickness change with the massive nerf without reducing cooldowns/debuffs of skills like frenzy. They use the “knee jerk” defense when its convenient for them… Maybe im wrong on this. Thoughts?
Torqky-80 Necro-Blackgate [HB]
More likely it will just be some GM trait in an underused line and add a negligible bonus like “+1% more damage for every boon the enemy has”.
I wouldn’t get my hopes up when it comes to GW2 PvP
You have gotten what you paid for, all that remains is biweekly gemshop pushing.
i dont think its gona be that big of a deal, probably 2% extra dmg per boon. It would be a big game changer only if they make it like 5% extra dmg per boon, but its not like the other profesions can do anything about it, i cant just say ok im fighting a warrior im not gonna apply any boons on myself.
aka Subl
What are other thoughs on this “Boon Hate” idea.
I think that the name isn’t fancy enough and I worry that the execution of the mechanic would be a reflection of that.
[quote=1567239;Lexie.5894:] My PVP experience is very consistent. I run around,
I fight people, sometimes they kill me, sometimes I kill them. Fun is had by all. [/quote]
I fight people, sometimes they kill me, sometimes I kill them. Fun is had by all. [/quote]
More likely it will just be some GM trait in an underused line and add a negligible bonus like “+1% more damage for every boon the enemy has”.
I wouldn’t get my hopes up when it comes to GW2 PvP
Well for this would be amazing against Guardians and Eles seeing how they are stactking about 5-8 boons at a time. But seeing how this could make it difficult for PVP, im seeing your thoughts on that.
First of all, Mesmers and Guardians will never become useless. These 2 are the most powerful classes in the game currently (guardian a very distant second to mesmers). Secondly, your talking about increasing the value of 2 of the least represented classes in the game right now where PvP is concerned. There’s nothing wrong with seeing an additional thief or warrior along the way past the entry level areas and hot joins.
Now that said, we still don’t know how boon hate works. If it’s just a passive increase in damage based off the number of boons the target has nothing will change. Warrior damage could probably be doubled and they still couldn’t kill a guardian or mesmer the way things are right now. And this goes for most of the classes in the game unfortunately. This could be the absolute worst approach they could possibly take.
Instead, if Boon Hate dispels boons and puts a debuff on the target so they can’t reboon immediately it magically makes mesmers and guardians among the ranks of mortals instead of gods like they are now. And if you give boon hate to only a few classes you do 2 things:
1.) You ensure represenation of said classes increases.
2.) You add a new layer of tactics and strategy to an already 1 note PvP system.
Anything that encourages more cooperation (ie. calling out the gaurdian for burst because your warrior/thief is about to use his boon consuming ability) and depth to PvP is a benefit to this game.
In my opinion boon hate will be things like “XXX attack now does more damage the more boons the Foe has” or “For every boon XXX removes extra damage is applied”, and why is this? Necromancer basically is a “Boon hate” class (if you choose to build it that way).
With Spinal shivers (and chill of death) gaining extra damage per boon ripped (3 boons being the maximum), Corrupt Boon and Well of Corruption. It will probably be more skills like that, but I don’t think (though I could be wrong who really knows?) they would put in too many.
Because every class (with appropriate builds) have one thing they do better than others ATM, and Necromancers is Condition control (and a small amount) of Boon control.
EDIT – I’m not against any class getting a new meta or anything, this is just a theory, by all means I would like to see Warrior get something new to play around with, but some people seem to think they will totally out class other classes with a few boon hate skills, it would be unlikely.
“Destroying my minions?, I’ll make more.”
(edited by TehGFreeman.1534)
Instead, if Boon Hate dispels boons and puts a debuff on the target so they can’t reboon immediately it magically makes mesmers and guardians among the ranks of mortals instead of gods like they are now.
This needs to happen.
You have gotten what you paid for, all that remains is biweekly gemshop pushing.
They might over buff warriors to compensate for the fail of the last patch. They need the most work, give them boon hate, and more cleanses (which they also need), and that gives them two buffs to remedy not only boon bunker classes but the surge in condition builds as of late as well.
Personally, I think it is deserved. I could see thieves and possibly mesmers utilizing boon hate as well, but not as effectively as warriors probably should. At least that could be an important passive to upcoming playstyles A-net plans on providing for them.
(edited by mongolianmisfit.8350)
So I have been reading the forums alot for a while and seeing the mutial issues that people are having in spvp. Thieve,Warrior underated and Ele op-ness. I read one thread with one of the Treads talking about “BoonHate”. This is a nice concept but i could see the result in two ways:
1. Thieves and warrior will trample over Gaurdans and Eles and there will be nothing but Eles and Gaurdians complain on forums.
2. Necros and Mesmers will be come useless since the converting boons ability will be trashed. Not saying that they will not be in groups but saying that this will restrict them to only using Condition builds and not use the converting skill.
I like the concept of this new talked about skill but how it is implemented needs to be consider wisely. Quickness being reduces of speed raised alot of concerns. ( alot to the thieves and warriors and some to rangers and engn. )
What are other thoughs on this “Boon Hate” idea.
I would be surprised if only warriors and thieves had boon hate and not necros. This is just my opinion but I think the devs are talking more about warriors and thieves because of all the talk after the march patch. I am unsure if mesmers would get this boon hate love but it is possible.
Going forward this is how I view a direction GW2 could take:
1) Bunkers – Can live for extended amounts of time and typically require two players to take down. A players/class traited for boon hate can bring them down alone but it will not happen quickly. This will give time for teammates to come back and support.
2) Glass Cannon – Will be able to put quick pressure on a bunker but since the fight will last longer they will ulimately be forced to retreat or die. The glass cannon builds will be best used to fight balanced builds or quickly 2 vs 1 someone down.
3) Boon Hate – This is not a glass cannon build. This is a balanced build that gives players the ability to defeat bunkers 1 vs 1. The fight will not be over quickly and so they must be aware of enemy players returning to support bunkers. The boon hate builds need to be weary of glass cannons as they are at a bigger disadvantage compared to other balanced builds. It is not guaranteed this build will beat bunkers. If the bunker player is a better player than you can still fail to kill them.
4) Other Balanced builds – Will have an advantage over boon hate builds in all respects except for fighting bunkers. Compared to boon hate builds they will have an easier time against glass cannons but will still be put under early pressure and need to fight their way back to win the fight.
As an example of my thinking I will take the thief into account (my most played class). I can see more boon hate being applied to the S/D weapon set either through updates to the weapons or through new traits. The new boon hate traits can even be put deep into Acrobatics and/or Trickery so as to keep them away from pure glass cannon builds. This would mean daggers would be more about glass cannon burst damage and swords could be more about sustained damage and longer fights.
They could still choose to bring down burst damage by lowering the damage on Mug. They can work on stealth changes that eliminate the ability to chain Cloak and Dagger (CnD). At the same time they can help bring sword builds back up for more sustained lasting fights and with some boon hate.
The main logic I am using is that glass cannon builds do not get the boon hate.
So I have been reading the forums alot for a while and seeing the mutial issues that people are having in spvp. Thieve,Warrior underated and Ele op-ness. I read one thread with one of the Treads talking about “BoonHate”. This is a nice concept but i could see the result in two ways:
1. Thieves and warrior will trample over Gaurdans and Eles and there will be nothing but Eles and Gaurdians complain on forums.
2. Necros and Mesmers will be come useless since the converting boons ability will be trashed. Not saying that they will not be in groups but saying that this will restrict them to only using Condition builds and not use the converting skill.
I like the concept of this new talked about skill but how it is implemented needs to be consider wisely. Quickness being reduces of speed raised alot of concerns. ( alot to the thieves and warriors and some to rangers and engn. )
What are other thoughs on this “Boon Hate” idea.
I would be surprised if only warriors and thieves had boon hate and not necros. This is just my opinion but I think the devs are talking more about warriors and thieves because of all the talk after the march patch. I am unsure if mesmers would get this boon hate love but it is possible.
Going forward this is how I view a direction GW2 could take:
1) Bunkers – Can live for extended amounts of time and typically require two players to take down. A players/class traited for boon hate can bring them down alone but it will not happen quickly. This will give time for teammates to come back and support.
2) Glass Cannon – Will be able to put quick pressure on a bunker but since the fight will last longer they will ulimately be forced to retreat or die. The glass cannon builds will be best used to fight balanced builds or quickly 2 vs 1 someone down.
3) Boon Hate – This is not a glass cannon build. This is a balanced build that gives players the ability to defeat bunkers 1 vs 1. The fight will not be over quickly and so they must be aware of enemy players returning to support bunkers. The boon hate builds need to be weary of glass cannons as they are at a bigger disadvantage compared to other balanced builds. It is not guaranteed this build will beat bunkers. If the bunker player is a better player than you can still fail to kill them.
4) Other Balanced builds – Will have an advantage over boon hate builds in all respects except for fighting bunkers. Compared to boon hate builds they will have an easier time against glass cannons but will still be put under early pressure and need to fight their way back to win the fight.
As an example of my thinking I will take the thief into account (my most played class). I can see more boon hate being applied to the S/D weapon set either through updates to the weapons or through new traits. The new boon hate traits can even be put deep into Acrobatics and/or Trickery so as to keep them away from pure glass cannon builds. This would mean daggers would be more about glass cannon burst damage and swords could be more about sustained damage and longer fights.
They could still choose to bring down burst damage by lowering the damage on Mug. They can work on stealth changes that eliminate the ability to chain Cloak and Dagger (CnD). At the same time they can help bring sword builds back up for more sustained lasting fights and with some boon hate.
The main logic I am using is that glass cannon builds do not get the boon hate.
And this is why we desperately need more information on what exactly boon hate will be. Given the absolutely terrible state the majority of classes are in with their trait trees, introducing traits that give boon hate would be the absolute worst thing to do until they’ve fixed the trees themselves.
Take Warrior for example… I would presume boonhate was just a mechanic attached to their burst skills. This way they’re on cooldown, encourage burst use which many warriors ignore (because 99.9% of warriors use greatsword because of how awful the other weapons are and how the class lacks any form of mobility otherwise), and can’t be spammed easily. For thieves you would attach it to steal for example.
And this is why we desperately need more information on what exactly boon hate will be. Given the absolutely terrible state the majority of classes are in with their trait trees, introducing traits that give boon hate would be the absolute worst thing to do until they’ve fixed the trees themselves.
Take Warrior for example… I would presume boonhate was just a mechanic attached to their burst skills. This way they’re on cooldown, encourage burst use which many warriors ignore (because 99.9% of warriors use greatsword because of how awful the other weapons are and how the class lacks any form of mobility otherwise), and can’t be spammed easily. For thieves you would attach it to steal for example.
True, they could choose to give the boon hate to glass cannon builds and maybe lower burst damage some more. I am unsure which method I would prefer. I was just thinking giving boon hate to balanced builds could be a good way to help bring them up without bring burst and bunker builds down farther.
And this is why we desperately need more information on what exactly boon hate will be. Given the absolutely terrible state the majority of classes are in with their trait trees, introducing traits that give boon hate would be the absolute worst thing to do until they’ve fixed the trees themselves.
Take Warrior for example… I would presume boonhate was just a mechanic attached to their burst skills. This way they’re on cooldown, encourage burst use which many warriors ignore (because 99.9% of warriors use greatsword because of how awful the other weapons are and how the class lacks any form of mobility otherwise), and can’t be spammed easily. For thieves you would attach it to steal for example.
True, they could choose to give the boon hate to glass cannon builds and maybe lower burst damage some more. I am unsure which method I would prefer. I was just thinking giving boon hate to balanced builds could be a good way to help bring them up without bring burst and bunker builds down farther.
Right. My only concern with boon hate being a passive trait increase that makes X skills do Y% more damage per boon on the target is it doesn’t really solve anything. It just gives whichever class they decide to focus on this month a bandaid they can change on a whim to increase class A’s damage against class B. This is an awful thing to add to the game and doesn’t really improve the state of the game. It just means when it’s Ranger’s turn to have their class looked at and they decide Rangers don’t do enough damage to Guardians, they’ll simply give them boon hate and up the % until Rangers deal the right amount of damage to guardians. Who cares if boon hate for one class does 1.7% more damage and boon hate on another does 3.6% more damage.
I’d rather just see boon hate remove all boons on the target and put a 5 second debuff on the target so they can’t get new boons. I’m not even sure the skills should do X% more damage per boon removed, or if it does, it should be slight. Then if you find this change is too powerful THEN you can introduce traits for ALL classes that give their boons a XX% chance to resist being destroyed (since most classes have a boon duration trait).
But the ability to remove boons I think would be quite powerful and even if Warriors aren’t competetive in structured PvP still, they’ll still be brough for their ability to remove boons and help focus down bunkers. It will encourage other teams to focus on Warriors giving the opposite team room to focus on non-booned targets etc etc. It just makes the PvP environment have more depth and require more coordination and tactics. Something I feel PvP currently lacks in this game.
What if it was in an ability (such as a new GS burst) which scaled heavily with the amount of boons on a target?
Some actual counter attack as oppose to one side spamming boons while the other player hits them hoping this trait will compensate.
Phaatonn, London UK
warriors always use signet of rage, which is 3 boons. lol so warriors are always vulnerable to their own speciality??
Meta elementalists get four from armor of earth, a further two when they swap to air and fire attune (the fire one lasting ~20secs), as well as another within 2 seconds of swapping attunement, or using an aura (which D/D invariably will against warriors) if they trait into air.
Has anyone thought about stealing or copying boons too? Maybe some poetic justice for all those retaliation-ravaged thieves over the last 8 months.
Phaatonn, London UK
(edited by Phaeton.9582)
I was thinking more along the lines of a proc based chance to remove a boon or two, maybe steal one as mentioned above.
Right. My only concern with boon hate being a passive trait increase that makes X skills do Y% more damage per boon on the target is it doesn’t really solve anything. It just gives whichever class they decide to focus on this month a bandaid they can change on a whim to increase class A’s damage against class B. This is an awful thing to add to the game and doesn’t really improve the state of the game. It just means when it’s Ranger’s turn to have their class looked at and they decide Rangers don’t do enough damage to Guardians, they’ll simply give them boon hate and up the % until Rangers deal the right amount of damage to guardians. Who cares if boon hate for one class does 1.7% more damage and boon hate on another does 3.6% more damage.
I’d rather just see boon hate remove all boons on the target and put a 5 second debuff on the target so they can’t get new boons. I’m not even sure the skills should do X% more damage per boon removed, or if it does, it should be slight. Then if you find this change is too powerful THEN you can introduce traits for ALL classes that give their boons a XX% chance to resist being destroyed (since most classes have a boon duration trait).
But the ability to remove boons I think would be quite powerful and even if Warriors aren’t competetive in structured PvP still, they’ll still be brough for their ability to remove boons and help focus down bunkers. It will encourage other teams to focus on Warriors giving the opposite team room to focus on non-booned targets etc etc. It just makes the PvP environment have more depth and require more coordination and tactics. Something I feel PvP currently lacks in this game.
I can’t speak for the devs on what their thoughts are for boon hate but I know I imagine it as any creative solution that diminishes the effect of boons. A percent damage increase per boon is just the simplest version. When I mentioned traits I was also trying to think of what traits those could be.
For the thief it could be something like, “Flanking strike removes two additional boons”. A trait like that would make a weapon skill that removes one boon now capable of removing three.
Boone stripping is really hard on warriors because we depend so much on uptime of swiftness. We don’t have the 25% speed increase Signet’s.
If boon hate doesn’t strip boons. Then a +% damage increase for the amount of boons the target has, wouldn’t even counter out Protection. In that sense, a boon strip ability would be vastly superior.
Implementing ‘band-aid’ solutions s not what is called for here. They need to tackle the root of the problem by toning down boon upkeep, boon stacking and possibly reduce the impact some boons have (especially protection), instead of adding more useless crap. Naturally, all that would need to be happen together with a check to burst.
But since it has never been Anet’s forte to deal with the cause instead of the consequence, we can only hope for an extra band-aid or two.
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(edited by KarlaGrey.5903)
I think protection serves its purpose perfectly in terms of effect. Some Profs. just have too much access to it while others have none. Vigor has the same problem.
More boon strips and ways to punish boons is probably one of the best possible solutions. Adding combat features like this adds depth to the PvP, whereas nerfing removes it.
Suggestions:
Reduce ICD on sigil of Nullification to 2s
Introduce new sigils that proc for dps or condition “on hit” of a foe with a boon X% of the time on 5s CD (basically a variation of the “on Crit” sigils that would be a viable alternative for builds with low precision
Perhaps make Vulnerability carry an effect that prevents boon application (would require tweaking durations on existing skills, but seems logical and increases the condition’s utility)
Rune Sets with a #4 and #6 bonus that punish/strip boons. Perhaps +5% against foes under the effects of boons and convert boon to condition on crit or even on hit with a longer ICD
Sigil of nullification might work, although as gwar pointed out this hits classes like war very hard too, who don’t have the ability to reapply them as frequently.
Improved sigil boon removal would allow elementalist to strip boons very effectively too, and isn’t much of a counter for these builds.
Vulnurability reducing the boon duration of newly applied boons by 3% a stack would be interesting to see, or you could even introduce a new condition for it.
A similar idea could be applied to conditions; a boon like ‘fortitdue’ which would reduce any newly applied conditions duration by 30%. This would allow classes with less condi removal more resistance to conditions if they knew what was coming.
Phaatonn, London UK
(edited by Phaeton.9582)