Guild Wars 2

Exists. I’m not sure why so many forum goers have been suggesting the need for it, when it has been implemented in the game already.

It’s called Vitality. Take a target, kill it with conditions. Now double their vitality, apply the same conditions, and watch it take twice as long to kill them.

Example: Armor Rating reduces incoming power damage, but doesn’t effect condition damage. Health Pool reduces the effectiveness of condition damage (takes longer to deplete the health pool) but is only marginally effective (if that) against power damage (as in, power damage for the most part results in the same net loss of health if health is the only attribute that has been increased).

I’m not sure why there have been so many “we need condition resistance” posts I’ve been reading lately, when it’s already been implemented into the game.

It does exist, and I agree, but there is simply too much condition damage currently.

Or not consistent enough (viable) cleanse. A full cleanse on a 40-60s cooldown on most classes utility slots, when most condition classes can get the majority of their conditions back up and doing full damage again within 10-15s max.

Or should conditions themselves require rework?

In terms of formula, duration, etc.

no vitality is not the counter to conditions

vitality + thoughness + blind + weakness + icearmor + protection + ……. = counter to power dps

on condition only vitality is working and missing all the other things to have enough EHP (effective HP) to can counter the damage conditions can do atm

So wait, if there are ten 100 damage bleeds on a target with 10000 hp (doing 10%), and that hp gets increased to 20000, the vitality increase didn’t decrease the effect of the bleeds from 10% damage done to only 5%?

Condi duration reduction is imo much more effective than double HP pool because classes what apply most cond can spam them over and over so they kill just a few secs later.

Yeah indeed it does exist.

Condition removal/cleansing is the counter to conditions (toughness/protection is the counter to dps. Vitality/healing/regen etc. counters both conditions and dps. No to mention blocking/evading/invun). All classes can trait/build in a way that allows for effective protection against conditions, many people just need to adjust to the current meta. There is never, no matter who tells you (whatever their kitten rank is), just one viable tpvp build etc. available to a class. Also, while pvp involves no small amount of skill to be great there will always be an aspect of rock-paper-scissors in builds. Certain builds will always be effective against certain types and weaker to others in turn.

EHP = your hp * damagereduce

this means (simple numbers so everyone can understand in my bad english^^)

power dps do 10000 damage in 10 seconds
condi dps do 10000 damage in 10 seconds

you have 20000 hp so you would die in 20 seconds from power or condi BUT

lets say thoughness + protection + ice armor + all the other good stuf reduce the power dmg on you by 50%

so the 10k power dps in 10 seconds is only 5k damage you get and you will die in 40 seconds

hope you get it^^ – vitality(hp) isnt all its the EHP and their is not enough EHP you can archieve in this game vs condi damage

Rozbuska.5263:

Condi duration reduction is imo much more effective than double HP pool because classes what apply most cond can spam them over and over so they kill just a few secs later.

Bleed, Torment, and Confusion are the only conditions that stack intensity, but that’s besides the point, because we can just assume max intensity and infinite duration for conditions with the point I’m trying to make.

With maximum stacks and infinite durations, increasing vitality increases the amount of time it takes for those durations to kill a player, which in itself is the “condition resistance” that I’ve seen so many people asking for.

Though I didn’t miss the point where condition duration reduction is also a strong passive tool against conditions, no worries.

Romek.4201:

EHP = your hp * damagereduce

this means (simple numbers so everyone can understand in my bad english^^)

power dps do 10000 damage in 10 seconds
condi dps do 10000 damage in 10 seconds

you have 20000 hp so you would die in 20 seconds from power or condi BUT

lets say prot + ice armor + all the other good stuf reduce the power dmg on you by 50%

so the 10k power dps in 10 seconds is only 5k damage you get and you will die in 40 seconds

hope you get it^^ – vitality(hp) isnt all its the EHP and their is not enough EHP you can archieve in this game vs condi damage

I wasn’t going for EHP for a reason though lol.

I’m essentially trying to make the argument that people have been saying that toughness should also affect condition damage, and that there needs to be a toughness-like stat introduced that scales down the amount of condition damage taken. And in a very general sense, all I was trying to say is that there is already a way to make conditions less effective through stat allocation.

But yes, as of now, I believe the only things that increase EHP against conditions are cleanses (to some degree), Runes of Melandru, and Berserkers Stance.

and ppl are right to ask for toughness or a thoughness-like-stat to reduce condidmg aslong condidamage do same damage as power in the same time with no reduce

I disagree. Vitality is not a solution when classes do not have the same HP pool, while being so similar in other aspects.

This will be a solution if everyone has base HP of 16k (considering current meta maybe even 20k)

Swim.6830:

I disagree. Vitality is not a solution when classes do not have the same HP pool, while being so similar in other aspects.

This will be a solution if everyone has base HP of 16k (considering current meta maybe even 20k)

True that adding vitality has a different marginal effectiveness for every class because of different base hp levels.

I never said it was a flawless system though.

I’m really not trying to be trolly (I can see how it can be perceived that way), I’m just trying to make more of a counter argument to say that we already have enough passive tools in place, and that maybe MORE passive mechanics is the last thing we need.

Vitality isn’t valid as condition resistance because it’s an equal opportunity stat that protects as well against condition than against power damage.

stof.9341:

Vitality isn’t valid as condition resistance because it’s an equal opportunity stat that protects as well against condition than against power damage.

Well that’s not exactly true as vitality is not there to directly relate to conditions. It’s taking into consideration other aspects of the class such as damage output, damage mitigation and mobility to the overall role on the class in the game. But these aspects also contribute to avoiding conditions. x/x/x/30/30 ele builds may roam around with light armor and 13k hp but their condition removal ability is extremely efficient.

stof.9341:

Vitality isn’t valid as condition resistance because it’s an equal opportunity stat that protects as well against condition than against power damage.

And stacking toughness makes you sacrifice stats somewhere else, so even if it isn’t necessarily equal opportunity, there is opportunity cost, because you could be sacrificing damage for survival.
Which, in the PvP arena, the damage stats, when 2 are on an amulet (excluding celestial) are all paired with vitality, and not toughness, meaning that the obvious intention is to either choose damage or survival.

Again, in a general sense, Vitality buffers the effects of condition damage, so if condition damage is truly broken, introducing another passive stat isn’t a fix (or it is, but it is a much more complex fix than just adding more cleanses, or even adjusting the numbers for condition damage output if it’s that bad, which imo it isn’t bad enough to warrant that except maybe Terror).

jcbroe.4329:

stof.9341:

Vitality isn’t valid as condition resistance because it’s an equal opportunity stat that protects as well against condition than against power damage.

And stacking toughness makes you sacrifice stats somewhere else, so even if it isn’t necessarily equal opportunity, there is opportunity cost, because you could be sacrificing damage for survival.
Which, in the PvP arena, the damage stats, when 2 are on an amulet (excluding celestial) are all paired with vitality, and not toughness, meaning that the obvious intention is to either choose damage or survival.

Again, in a general sense, Vitality buffers the effects of condition damage, so if condition damage is truly broken, introducing another passive stat isn’t a fix (or it is, but it is a much more complex fix than just adding more cleanses, or even adjusting the numbers for condition damage output if it’s that bad, which imo it isn’t bad enough to warrant that except maybe Terror).

I do not dispute that vitality is the “in game” condition resistance. I am merely stating that the imbalance is created when vitality helps against both power and condition attacks but toughness works on just power. Cleansing was the second counter to conditions to balance this out. But right now conditions are far greater than cleansing mechanics.

I also disagree to increasing cleansing for all classes since the builds that contain just
2-3 vital conditions (cripple/chill/immobilize/poison/quick stacking bleeds) will suffer immensely as a result of increased cleanses.

The only solutions are to tone down conditions either by restricting number of similar classes/builds matched up on a team or by creating mechanics to help deal with conditions (without removing them) such as protection working on conditions or weakness working on conditions

Vitality and Toughness offer around the same effectiveness for reducing damage. If you take half damage or have twice as much HP, the end effect is you live twice as long against direct damage. There are a couple of differences, though.

Vitality: This gives more effective HP on every class that isn’t a necromancer (up to a certain point when HP = Armor x 10), and is ablative in the sense that once that extra HP is gone it is gone for good.

Toughness: This increases the efficiency of healing overall, however conditions bypass toughness.

It is a bit of a tradeoff, and you can make a case for either one in many circumstances. To maximize effective HP, though, what you want to do is gain vitality until your HP is roughly equal to your armor rating, and then increase them at the same rate. For long fights in PVE, however it is arguably better to just stack a whole lot of toughness, so your heals are overall better.

I suppose the only issue with saying that players should stack vitality to deal with conditions is that players already do that. Much like how direct damage isn’t shut down completely by toughness, conditions aren’t shut down by vitality. They end up doing less damage as an overall percentage of your health, but in an objective manner they’re just doing the same damage against a bigger HP pool. This is important when you compare it to another form of survival: healing. Conditions still do the same damage relative to the amount you heal, so overall your extra health really amounts to just having an extra 8 seconds before you’re in the same boat as everyone else.

So, assuming that you don’t use Melandru Runes or Hoelbrak runes to reduce condition duration, the idea of incredible condition resistance is a bad one. If you give classes condition resistance, then it isn’t fair to the classes who don’t get it. Then condition builds complain that there is a way to objectively shut them down permanently with no counters, so then A-net throws in counters to condition resistance, and the cycle continues endlessly.

We already have cleanses, evasion, blocking, and stuns. Just use those to fight condition users, instead of stacking protection and going “hah lol you can’t hurt me!!!1111!one1!1”

Can I assume that this topic is in response to mine that Weakness and Regen should affect conditions? If it is then great!

Blood Red has pretty much said it better than I would say it. Though I still maintain my position on Weakness and Regen.

Regeneration is the counter to conditions . . . oh wait!

Man, where is my coldown to be inmune to physical damage every 40sec? Oh, there is nothing! why u should be inmune to conditions or clear it every 10secs?

When a rogue is beating me with all those 6-8k hits, then there isnt any coldown to clear this damage…

Dont pretend to be condition cleared all the time running around SOLO, just check WvW and see how conditions get removed asap by AOE condition removals… teamwork.

People whine about too many conditions going on, well… people actually plays Necro for once, so the miracle happened and there is even more than 1necro in some hotjoin matches wow!

Now check how is to 2rogues (for example)focus you and get ur health downed in 2seconds… there isnt enough high dps/burst going on?

The people needs to kittenin learn to play, yesterday i was facing a warrior with 3 or 4 condition removals + blocking skill… even zerguing him he was able to last a lot of time..

You’re all missing some important points here

Assuming that:
1) Toughnes + Protection + Damage Resist buffs (frost aura, dolyak signet, whatever) counter direct continuous damage (as in, effectively reducing incoming damage)
2) Vitality counters Condition Damage (as in, reducing the relative health loss)
(I’m leaving healing out of this since you can’t have V/T/H gear anyway, or that would be the perfect counter to anything.). Also, there is condi reduction % (melandru, hoelbrak, whatever).

There is a main difference between direct damage and condition damage: it is the ramp up time.
If I hit you for 5k fire grab (or phoenix, or whatever hard hitting spell you want), you lose 5k hps istantly.
If I hit you with 10 stacks of bleed (let’s say 100 damage each) for 5s (but it could be 100s, doesn’t matter), but you cleanse it after 2s, you only lose 2k hps.

Of course, Healing is going to counter/heal both type of damages, but a cleanse will totally negate potential condition damage (becoming invulnerable after being hit by direct damage or condi application is not going to help either way). If you run with 0 cleanses in the current condition heavy meta, however, you’re asking for it, and are going to take full damage (mesmers are kinda screwed in this regard tbh, unless some new viable dps build with condi cleanses gets discovered).
It is really no different than running with 916 toughness and then complaining that “omg I got hit by 10k backstab! that mind wrack hit me for 2k each clone! wtf 14k whirlwind, nerf warriors!”

Of course, I’m not talking about 8vs8 hotjoin zergfest, but actual decent level play.

P.S. If you do the math you’ll be shocked at how balanced the current stat combinations are.

jcbroe.4329:

Exists. I’m not sure why so many forum goers have been suggesting the need for it, when it has been implemented in the game already.

It’s called Vitality. Take a target, kill it with conditions. Now double their vitality, apply the same conditions, and watch it take twice as long to kill them.

Example: Armor Rating reduces incoming power damage, but doesn’t effect condition damage. Health Pool reduces the effectiveness of condition damage (takes longer to deplete the health pool) but is only marginally effective (if that) against power damage (as in, power damage for the most part results in the same net loss of health if health is the only attribute that has been increased).

I’m not sure why there have been so many “we need condition resistance” posts I’ve been reading lately, when it’s already been implemented into the game.

So vita only affect condition dmg? Are you in the false assumption that power dmg does % dmg of targets HPs? Cause it does not. A thief has a much easier time to burst down a target with 12k HPs than someone with 25k HPs. Vita is a counter against every type of dmg (as long as it’s not %-based), not only against conds.
I have stated this in a new thread – check it out: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Reasons-why-we-have-a-cond-meta/first#post2368971

Shar.3402:

P.S. If you do the math you’ll be shocked at how balanced the current stat combinations are.

Have you done the math? ‘Cos I’d like to see that.

Math is one thing though, reality is another.