Guild Wars 2

Xeph.4513:

snip

The meta is different now. Get over it. Change is good. A changed meta is good.

Yeh some of the “top” players might be kitten because they all relied on the opness of mesmer/ele/guardian and now they are worse compared to necro they find out they aren’t really as good as they think they are.

Changes to the meta should be welcomed. If your personal class is worse then boo hoo. Necros had a class strictly worse than engi for 6 months +.

Should they nerf necro? Yes. Should we listen to everyone wanting the same old kitten with mesmer/ele/guardian being required in all teams? God no. Its lame.

Agree….. worst meta ever true, but i cant understand why anet needs the kitten long timefor rreact and prepare their mistakes…. 1week after the patch has the nerfhammer showed up…. and still it need months for just reparing past mistakes.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Xeph.4513:

snip

The meta is different now. Get over it. Change is good. A changed meta is good.

Yeh some of the “top” players might be kitten because they all relied on the opness of mesmer/ele/guardian and now they are worse compared to necro they find out they aren’t really as good as they think they are.

Changes to the meta should be welcomed. If your personal class is worse then boo hoo. Necros had a class strictly worse than engi for 6 months +.

Should they nerf necro? Yes. Should we listen to everyone wanting the same old kitten with mesmer/ele/guardian being required in all teams? God no. Its lame.

lol, current meta is utter crap. AoE damage has always been a problem, Anet solution? get even more aoe damage by buffing necros. what the f….
And also, trollthieves.

prozon.3561:

Agree….. worst meta ever true, but i cant understand why anet needs the kitten long timefor rreact and prepare their mistakes…. 1week after the patch has the nerfhammer showed up…. and still it need months for just reparing past mistakes.

If they listened to all those people who said Eles were weak early in the game and buffed them immediately, what would have happened? If they listened to all those people who said Rangers were weak and buffed them immediately, what would have happened?

In each of those cases, almost every person who said Eles were weak or Rangers were weak came back and said, “Eles are OP with their healing and dps and Rangers are OP with their evading and pets damage and condi spam”

The best thing they can do for the game is let the meta settle and find a counter to it. If people are smart, they’ll start running two stun Warriors against two Necros.

Shar.3402:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Xeph.4513:

snip

The meta is different now. Get over it. Change is good. A changed meta is good.

Yeh some of the “top” players might be kitten because they all relied on the opness of mesmer/ele/guardian and now they are worse compared to necro they find out they aren’t really as good as they think they are.

Changes to the meta should be welcomed. If your personal class is worse then boo hoo. Necros had a class strictly worse than engi for 6 months +.

Should they nerf necro? Yes. Should we listen to everyone wanting the same old kitten with mesmer/ele/guardian being required in all teams? God no. Its lame.

lol, current meta is utter crap. AoE damage has always been a problem, Anet solution? get even more aoe damage by buffing necros. what the f….
And also, trollthieves.

So we had 1 month where necros and s/d thieves supposedly rule, and now we should just go back to the same old kitten where mesmer and ele dominate for another 8 months just to suit team paradigm and some other teams? kitten that.

Look, there is a new team people know about. They have the best thief by miles. One of the best guards. One of the best eles. One of the best engis and maybe one of the best necros. They deserve to be where they are. It isnt because of the meta.

Sure necro and s/d thief might be SLIGHTLY op. But they should be judged on the basis of other classes. They shouldn’t just give everything to mesmer and ele again. Ranger/thief and necro are the favourite things for anet to nerf. It is like those classes just get owned whenever they become viable. Whereas ele and mesmer are held in higher regard.

It is fine to want a return to the old meta. But that doesnt mean anet should do it. I hope they see through this thread and dont go for the total BS that was the last meta. Too much bunker bs in the last meta. Too much ele/mesmer dominance. kitten that. Keep things fresh. If people cant adapt then so what.

Ultima.8673:

Authority.6145:

PS: Ultima used to run triple elementalists in his team comp. That was the epitome of balance right right Ultima?

Ultima is asking specifically for a nerf because his favorite role and build are not viable anymore so instead of adjusting and adapting like all the thieves have always have done as well as the current trend with warriors, he is asking for a nerf.

just watch the last european curse masters of the mists tournament . in my team i am the only ele… (switching from bunkerele to an offensive one is a completely different role/playstyle)

i played at beginning of the game an offensive staffelementalist ( in svanir ninjas with posi, psyco..) and that steal backstab mug combo was really too high damage. u didnt see the thief coming and u died from 100% to 0% instant. so the thief nerfs were justified….

u should be glad that i won’t post here all former elenerfs….
many of them were justified i can refer to old posts of me
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/The-reign-of-eliminati/first#post1704192

so kitten my complaints are justified.

When did teams stop playing double elementalist again? And you did make a post on forum stating that an S/D thief needs a nerf because because YOU used to be an aggressive far-pointer. After the nerfs you are still here asking for more nerfs.

An elementalist asks for nerfs on a thief as if the thief can 100-0 that class or as if the thief is on the same “balance spread sheet” as an elementalist. Want to compare what an elementalist brings to the team with an S/D thief just to show you how ridiculous your justified complains are?

Lets look at this in another way,

What does S/D do better than other classes?*

Aoe damage? None.
Raw damage? None.
Burst damage? None.
Getting one-shotted? Absolutely not.
Condition damage? None.
Condition removal? None.
Returning conditions? None.
Might-stacking? None.
Self-sustained boons? None.
Self-rezing skill? None.
Rezing an ally while he is downed? None.
Fear, Knockback? None.
Kicking off the point close holders? None.
Holding a point 1v2? Not even worth typing.
Close-point holder? Not even worth typing.
Mobility superiority? None.
Stability? None.
Being the best far-point contester? Not even close.
Passing/sharing boons with the team? None.
Supporting the team with heals? None.

*real

Do you even know why a thief/rogue/assassin has always been super squishy and super deadly in other mmorpgs? I will tell you why;

a. it balances it self out.
b.because it forces players not to blow up all their cooldowns.
c.because it forces players to pay attention rather than playing passively.
d.because it was one of those classes that would punish other players for not knowing their classes.
e.because it was always one of those classes that was able to counter play super abusive set ups/team comps aka mass magic damage/mass cc/and so on and so forth.

So we end up with Guild Wars 2 and a meta that flips completely what a thief is and makes it look like as if playing a joggler instead of being an assassin just to satisfy classes that offer way more to the team while not feel the heat as a thief does versus them.

Fear the almighty S/D thief because an elementalist, a mesmer and an engineer are getting one-shotted while at the same time an S/D thief does everything better than them.

The fact is that you have no arguments strong enough to considerate a S/D Thief OP/Meta in any angle. You just want to have a thief breezing past you.

You want that class which is supposed to outdps every single class in this game to be a walking troll stick.

Well you got it.

Authority.6145:

When did teams stop playing double elementalist again? And you did make a post on forum stating that an S/D thief needs a nerf because because YOU used to be an aggressive far-pointer. After the nerfs you are still here asking for more nerfs.

An elementalist asks for nerfs on a thief as if the thief can 100-0 that class or as if the thief is on the same “balance spread sheet” as an elementalist. Want to compare what an elementalist brings to the team with an S/D thief just to show you how ridiculous your justified complains are?

Lets look at this in another way,

What does S/D do better than other classes?*

Aoe damage? None.
Raw damage? Why would you play it if it didn’t have damage?
Burst damage? None.
Getting one-shotted? Absolutely not.
Condition damage? None.
Condition removal? Shadow Step
Returning conditions? None.
Might-stacking? When Stolen
Self-sustained boons? When Stolen
Self-rezing skill? None.
Rezing an ally while he is downed? Shadow Refuge
Fear, Knockback? When Stolen
Kicking off the point close holders? None.
Holding a point 1v2? Not even worth typing.
Close-point holder? Not even worth typing.
Mobility superiority? Shadow Trap, Infiltrator’s Arrow, Shadowstep, infiltrator’s signet
Stability? When Stolen or using Lyssa
Being the best far-point contester? Not even close.
Passing/sharing boons with the team? None.
Supporting the team with heals? None.

Corrected to be fair and less one-sided. Don’t get me wrong, I’m an advocate for keeping S/D thieves the way they are but you have to stick with the facts and not leave holes in your argument.

I completely agree, Xeph. A few months back, you could really tell which teams were actually skilled, and which werent. Now you have a cluster of who can spam the most aoe conditions the quickest. There just isn’t any strategy or skill involved anymore. Imo, the balance in this game was pretty much perfect before the last balance patch… Now it’s just no fun anymore. This game has gone fromgood to Wtf in a matter of weeks with what ANet is doing. A shame, a real kitten shame.

Siric.3589:

RaZaC.1963:

• Poison (currently does not affect heals/rez);

Fix this for the love of god.

Don’t forget weakness (reduces heals/resses)

You could always hope they fix it before pax, but I doubt it.

Dirame.8521:

Authority.6145:

When did teams stop playing double elementalist again? And you did make a post on forum stating that an S/D thief needs a nerf because because YOU used to be an aggressive far-pointer. After the nerfs you are still here asking for more nerfs.

An elementalist asks for nerfs on a thief as if the thief can 100-0 that class or as if the thief is on the same “balance spread sheet” as an elementalist. Want to compare what an elementalist brings to the team with an S/D thief just to show you how ridiculous your justified complains are?

Lets look at this in another way,

What does S/D do better than other classes?*

Aoe damage? None.
Raw damage? Why would you play it if it didn’t have damage?
Burst damage? None.
Getting one-shotted? Absolutely not.
Condition damage? None.
Condition removal? Shadow Step
Returning conditions? None.
Might-stacking? When Stolen
Self-sustained boons? When Stolen
Self-rezing skill? None.
Rezing an ally while he is downed? Shadow Refuge
Fear, Knockback? When Stolen
Kicking off the point close holders? None.
Holding a point 1v2? Not even worth typing.
Close-point holder? Not even worth typing.
Mobility superiority? Shadow Trap, Infiltrator’s Arrow, Shadowstep, infiltrator’s signet
Stability? When Stolen or using Lyssa
Being the best far-point contester? Not even close.
Passing/sharing boons with the team? None.
Supporting the team with heals? None.

Corrected to be fair and less one-sided. Don’t get me wrong, I’m an advocate for keeping S/D thieves the way they are but you have to stick with the facts and not leave holes in your argument.

Condition removal – On going condition removal. It is pointless to use a utility on a 40-50 seconds cooldown to remove 3 conditions if the other classes can simply re-apply the same condition (s).

Raw damage – I meant similar to Warrior on GS, Mesmer on GS.
Burst damage – As in D/P Thief, 100b Warrior, Shattered Mesmer, S/D Elementalist; using a combo to bring out an extremely burst combo.

Rezing an ally – I meant using a utility. I should have clarified that. Also shadow refuge is easily countered by CC due to the lack of stability.

Mobility – in terms of going from A to B and from B to C and from C to A like using Short-bow as a D/P.

Shadow trap – It has a cooldown now.The best way to play that role without thinking that sacrificing Shadow Step or Shadow Refuge is absurd is to play it like Cruuk’s play it which I think is the most efficient way for a thief to invest and build around the concept Shadow Trap aka super aggressive far assaulter.

Think of it this way – With this CC meta having only access to Shadow Trap as an appropriate stun breaker means you are going to teleport far away from the team fight.

Boons – On going boons like on going condition removal. Self-sustained and not taking it from others. Also I am looking at things without including any runes and talking specifically for specific weapon set skills and utilities as well as the tree line.

I hope I made my self clear now and not leave any holes behind. Please re-correct me appropriately again if needed.

Also I am comparing them with other classes and not talking specifically about a thief on its own.

Why don’t we all just quit our characters and start playing necros and engis?

Seems like what ANet wants us to do…

Authority.6145:

Condition removal – On going condition removal. It is pointless to use a utility on a 40-50 seconds cooldown to remove 3 conditions if the other classes can simply re-apply

S/D number 2 removes condition when re-activated..

Henqquli.5078:

Authority.6145:

Condition removal – On going condition removal. It is pointless to use a utility on a 40-50 seconds cooldown to remove 3 conditions if the other classes can simply re-apply

S/D number 2 removes condition when re-activated..

I am comparing it with other classes and not on its own.

Authority.6145:

Ultima.8673:

Authority.6145:

PS: Ultima used to run triple elementalists in his team comp. That was the epitome of balance right right Ultima?

Ultima is asking specifically for a nerf because his favorite role and build are not viable anymore so instead of adjusting and adapting like all the thieves have always have done as well as the current trend with warriors, he is asking for a nerf.

just watch the last european curse masters of the mists tournament . in my team i am the only ele… (switching from bunkerele to an offensive one is a completely different role/playstyle)

i played at beginning of the game an offensive staffelementalist ( in svanir ninjas with posi, psyco..) and that steal backstab mug combo was really too high damage. u didnt see the thief coming and u died from 100% to 0% instant. so the thief nerfs were justified….

u should be glad that i won’t post here all former elenerfs….
many of them were justified i can refer to old posts of me
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/The-reign-of-eliminati/first#post1704192

so kitten my complaints are justified.

When did teams stop playing double elementalist again? And you did make a post on forum stating that an S/D thief needs a nerf because because YOU used to be an aggressive far-pointer. After the nerfs you are still here asking for more nerfs.

An elementalist asks for nerfs on a thief as if the thief can 100-0 that class or as if the thief is on the same “balance spread sheet” as an elementalist. Want to compare what an elementalist brings to the team with an S/D thief just to show you how ridiculous your justified complains are?

Lets look at this in another way,

What does S/D do better than other classes?*

Aoe damage? None.
Raw damage? None.
Burst damage? None.
Getting one-shotted? Absolutely not.
Condition damage? None.
Condition removal? None.
Returning conditions? None.
Might-stacking? None.
Self-sustained boons? None.
Self-rezing skill? None.
Rezing an ally while he is downed? None.
Fear, Knockback? None.
Kicking off the point close holders? None.
Holding a point 1v2? Not even worth typing.
Close-point holder? Not even worth typing.
Mobility superiority? None.
Stability? None.
Being the best far-point contester? Not even close.
Passing/sharing boons with the team? None.
Supporting the team with heals? None.

*real

Do you even know why a thief/rogue/assassin has always been super squishy and super deadly in other mmorpgs? I will tell you why;

a. it balances it self out.
b.because it forces players not to blow up all their cooldowns.
c.because it forces players to pay attention rather than playing passively.
d.because it was one of those classes that would punish other players for not knowing their classes.
e.because it was always one of those classes that was able to counter play super abusive set ups/team comps aka mass magic damage/mass cc/and so on and so forth.

So we end up with Guild Wars 2 and a meta that flips completely what a thief is and makes it look like as if playing a joggler instead of being an assassin just to satisfy classes that offer way more to the team while not feel the heat as a thief does versus them.

Fear the almighty S/D thief because an elementalist, a mesmer and an engineer are getting one-shotted while at the same time an S/D thief does everything better than them.

The fact is that you have no arguments strong enough to considerate a S/D Thief OP/Meta in any angle. You just want to have a thief breezing past you.

You want that class which is supposed to outdps every single class in this game to be a walking troll stick.

Well you got it.

i am kinda bored to answer you but here again why all people complain about s/dthief is that u get a big survivability by dodging and making pressure (sword 3 skill) in a teamfight u gonna dodge/evade everything. if u say he dies in aoes xD then ur team plays wrong because no team focuses a s/dthief first…. if he gets hit by aoe then the s/dthief stands next to his teammates what is also wrong…. the other mates ele necro mesmer ranger they shoot from range = safe distance while sdthief makes the pressure and u cannot stop it. if u try to stop it u waste skills on the thief. thief has best disengages, stealth, best mobility and sdthief is the biggest flavour of the month it took me 1 h too learn that class it feels like playing hwoarang from tekken 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 kick kick kick. imo this class is too easy to play and gives too much. play an offele make that earth into air combo , press 9 buttons within 2 seconds with proper positioning, timing …. and compare that to the s/dthief. what i wan either nerf the damage of sdthief or the survivability of it or better change the mechanic make it more skillfull..

@Authority.6145 & Lordrosicky.5813

The both of you are probably doing better in tournaments since last patch. Either you play at a level where S/D thief is played badly (Is such a thing possible?) or you play it yourself and refuse to see how stupid low the skill sealing is for the ridiculous amount of rewards it gives. The problem with S/D thiefs is, is that they are impossible to punish for mistakes due to their teleports and constant evades.

swinsk.6410:

Why don’t we all just quit our characters and start playing necros and engis?

Seems like what ANet wants us to do…

I think what Anet wants you to do is find a counter to the meta but apparently we are too busy whining to do that. You want someone in some high ranking team to do the same thing Super Squad did when they ran a Warrior with Battle Standard, or when Teldo went back to playing Flamethrower/Bomb kit. You’re not willing to counter the meta, only willing to complain about it.

The current meta feels like im walking on a minefield and im ready to explode to condies:P

Ultima.8673:

play an offele make that earth into air combo , press 9 buttons within 2 seconds with proper positioning, timing …. and compare that to the s/dthief. what i wan either nerf the damage of sdthief or the survivability of it or better change the mechanic make it more skillfull..

You can squeeze a quick phoenix there if you run with fresh air.Put air on cd go earthquake, flash switch to fire phoenix arcane,refresh air by critting completely bypassing global attunement cooldown ,air and air spells all combo under 1 second !
Have fun..ele is a wonderfull class
edit:others can press 3 as much as they want ..lol

Ultima.8673:

i am kinda bored to answer you

So lets sum up again in team fights,

a.A class that can disengage is stronger that a ranged class that continually engage.
b.A class with no raw damage, no burst damage, no aoe damage and no condition damage but sustained damage on a single target is stronger than a ranged class that applies aoe and condition pressure on the whole team.

Also,

S/D is not D/P so no need to talk about stealth when S/D does not uses stealth but teleport and stealth is only used to interrupt an enemy rezzing someone, an enemy in a downed state or an enemy who is about to die and wants to escape or use a heal, if we break it down the rotation an S/D does during a team fight. Thus, there is nothing abusive with S/D in terms of stealth and the only stealth abuser is D/P with 30 on SA.

Best mobility? I think I have already clarified that S/D thieves are dropping or will considerate dropping Shadow Trap after the timer introduced. Don’t forget to explain to me how is it possible an S/D thief with no Short-bow to have the best mobility in game since most classes are able to go from point A to point B faster than a S/D Thief.

And if you want me to add Shadow Trap to the equation lets see how much ground an S/D can cover in 5 minutes and compare it with other classes.

In terms of aoe-and-conditions spam I clearly said that an S/D Thief spends most of his time disengaging, condition cleansing and evading/dodging than actually producing damage. If you break it down the bottom line is not even “sustained” damage.

Also please make me a list so we can compare the S/D Thief’ contribution to the team with other classes in every angle possible (support, dps, aoe, conditions, heals, boons)

S/D Thief is strong because akittens best it is an effective nuisance; like trying to kill a mosquito with your finger. S/D Thief is strong not because you play right but because that particular team has made it clear what is the specific role of that specific class build including belonging to a specific team comp.

Now stop typing as if not having an S/D Thief on your team comp means instantly your chances of winning are greatly less.

I would be bored too if I couldn’t refute any of those points.

RaZaC.1963:

@Authority.6145 & Lordrosicky.5813

The both of you are probably doing better in tournaments since last patch. Either you play at a level where S/D thief is played badly (Is such a thing possible?) or you play it yourself and refuse to see how stupid low the skill sealing is for the ridiculous amount of rewards it gives. The problem with S/D thiefs is, is that they are impossible to punish for mistakes due to their teleports and constant evades.

Im not saying necro or s/d isnt op. It is. But so was ele and mesmer for the last 10 months. But now alot of the top teams are crying because suddenly the meta isnt in their favour as much. They profited for ages from the opness of certain classes. Now there is a new team owning them and suddenly it is all because of the balance? Nah. CC are just better players. The older teams need to get over it and improve. Mogwow played for ages in solo q learning how to own without being carried. The people in the top teams sit around all day waiting for their team to come online. Hardly how to learn as an individual. So then mogwow owns everyone along with his team and it is the meta’s fault? Sorry that is such a cop out. CC just have way better players

Salut,
You should revise your builds and your match’up because of this “new meta”.
The counter of the engi is necro? go 30 alchemy or 15 Tools.
Necro is just a big turret of condition , it’s like a warrior or GlassCanon class, u have to kill him fast.
About the thief, you just need to know how it work …
- STOP FOCUS A THIEF S/D.
- The only moment or you have to focus him, it’s when he rez somebody,
- it does a constant dps with larcenous strike => dodge, blind,cc?
- you haven’t to kill him or you will waste your time/CD.

Personally, i have much more problem against a thief D/P after played S/D.

Warrior>necro, Peace

Lordrosicky.5813:

Im not saying necro or s/d isnt op. It is.

Other sentences then this one ^^ is not related to this topic. If mesmer and ele becomes op after the next balance patch. You should create a topic on that matter. Please leave your personal issues with some people aside and try to think and talk for the future of this game.

ertugrul.8031:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Im not saying necro or s/d isnt op. It is.

Other sentences then this one ^^ is not related to this topic. If mesmer and ele becomes op after the next balance patch. You should create a topic on that matter. Please leave your personal issues with some people aside and try to think and talk for the future of this game.

I have no personal issues with anyone dude. And yeh mesmer will be op. Totally op. If they nerf necro and engi then can you imagine mesmer GS damage when conditions are weaker? it will be so op

Lordrosicky.5813:

ertugrul.8031:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Im not saying necro or s/d isnt op. It is.

Other sentences then this one ^^ is not related to this topic. If mesmer and ele becomes op after the next balance patch. You should create a topic on that matter. Please leave your personal issues with some people aside and try to think and talk for the future of this game.

I have no personal issues with anyone dude. And yeh mesmer will be op. Totally op. If they nerf necro and engi then can you imagine mesmer GS damage when conditions are weaker? it will be so op

Then here’s your next topic title, “If they nerf necro and engi then can you imagine mesmer GS damage are weaker? it will be so op.”

Dont drag this topic out of its course pls.

ertugrul.8031:

Lordrosicky.5813:

ertugrul.8031:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Im not saying necro or s/d isnt op. It is.

Other sentences then this one ^^ is not related to this topic. If mesmer and ele becomes op after the next balance patch. You should create a topic on that matter. Please leave your personal issues with some people aside and try to think and talk for the future of this game.

I have no personal issues with anyone dude. And yeh mesmer will be op. Totally op. If they nerf necro and engi then can you imagine mesmer GS damage when conditions are weaker? it will be so op

Then here’s your next topic title, “If they nerf necro and engi then can you imagine mesmer GS damage are weaker? it will be so op.”

Dont drag this topic out of its course pls.

This topic is about the meta. Everything I said is about the meta.

RaZaC.1963:

@Authority.6145 & Lordrosicky.5813

The both of you are probably doing better in tournaments since last patch. Either you play at a level where S/D thief is played badly (Is such a thing possible?) or you play it yourself and refuse to see how stupid low the skill sealing is for the ridiculous amount of rewards it gives. The problem with S/D thiefs is, is that they are impossible to punish for mistakes due to their teleports and constant evades.

I don’t do tournaments anymore because I don’t have time to invest on a Team as well as other reasons like playing a game and feeling that 75% is build and 25% skill where anybody can pick a faceroll build or super abusive and can play with it regardless of practice. You could have the best D/P thief out there in tournaments and his contribution will be less than a decent/average S/D thief though I would like to think that it might be possible to see D/P thieves countering S/D thieves soon or in the future.

In terms of build I was playing a variation of S/D-Shortbow and after two weeks I came to the conclusion like every singe thief comes with this specific S/D-S/D; that it is successful if played like it is suppose to played and traited as it is suppose to be traited; a rigid formula of efficiency.

Right now when I solo-que I am always on my D/P.

I understand clearly what the strong points are with S/D but I will refuse to let a mesmer, an elementalist and an engineer talk about how strong S/D thief is and what nerfs it needs.

If you want to make a list of what classes contribute to the team in this current meta as a whole I am 100 percent sure S/D thief will be last.

butch.8136:

Removing stability… My god, I can’t imagine the horror. Maybe a bit finetuning, but removing it?

That sounds like a bad idea, but imo removing stability and adding a small cc immunity timer wouldn’t be horrific at all, quite the opposite. Also this will solve the fear spamming problem.

Lordrosicky.5813:

ertugrul.8031:

Lordrosicky.5813:

ertugrul.8031:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Im not saying necro or s/d isnt op. It is.

Other sentences then this one ^^ is not related to this topic. If mesmer and ele becomes op after the next balance patch. You should create a topic on that matter. Please leave your personal issues with some people aside and try to think and talk for the future of this game.

I have no personal issues with anyone dude. And yeh mesmer will be op. Totally op. If they nerf necro and engi then can you imagine mesmer GS damage when conditions are weaker? it will be so op

Then here’s your next topic title, “If they nerf necro and engi then can you imagine mesmer GS damage are weaker? it will be so op.”

Dont drag this topic out of its course pls.

This topic is about the meta. Everything I said is about the meta.

No, its not.. you believe some people acting hypocritical and you are defending some other team for no reason at all.

Edit: And i dont want to continue this argument with you anymore for the sake of this topic. Send me private message or something, if you want.

@Lordrosicky

but they dont nerf engi . dont know in what illusional world you live but you should stop smoking this weird things your postings are not even more funny.

people here dont ask to nerf a op class to get a other class. ppl ask TO FIX the current clearly broken system.

perfect system is not when 1 or 2 classes are needed for the team like necro or thief is now. perfect would be when all classes have a chance and all classes can be countered.

and problem is not 1 class is op – problem is their are mechanics which are op and just frustrating ones which got buffed so they are now the core in the meta

and @op
suggestion for stealth problem

light field remove stealth in a radius AND whirl + jump finisher in light field should be redesignd to be a counter for stealth

like
whirl – all foes in a radius (900?) get debuff to cant stealth in next 4 sec
jump – the target area get a light explosion and remove all stealth in radius 600

we need more brain in this game not so much faceroll

and damage should be tones down a lot – their should be no oneshot mechanism ingame . noone should kill somone in seconds before he can react. and a lot core spells should get better grafics.

thx

oh and @teldo
ppl say bomb engi is op here in forum cause you kill them all

plz make what you did this week with thief and play their classes in your 1vs1 arena and show its not the bombengi its you – thx

have a nice day guys

Ele/Mesmers says: I cant oneshot kill thief. Anet fix this.
And it did. Now, FS does less damage than the PW, and costs the same ini. And most importantly removed stunbreak. Now, for example if the thief stunbreak on cd then kill him (warrior / ele / mesmer) per cc chain.
Other professions have never been so fast and hard nerf.

I understand more complaints about permastealths. Because of this there is no counterplay. But who complain about the FS just pathetic noobs.

Authority.6145:

I don’t do tournaments anymore because I don’t have time to invest on a Team as well as other reasons like playing a game and feeling that 75% is build and 25% skill where anybody can pick a faceroll build or super abusive and can play with it regardless of practice. You could have the best D/P thief out there in tournaments and his contribution will be less than a decent/average S/D thief though I would like to think that it might be possible to see D/P thieves countering S/D thieves soon or in the future.

In terms of build I was playing a variation of S/D-Shortbow and after two weeks I came to the conclusion like every singe thief comes with this specific S/D-S/D; that it is successful if played like it is suppose to played and traited as it is suppose to be traited; a rigid formula of efficiency.

Right now when I solo-que I am always on my D/P.

I understand clearly what the strong points are with S/D but I will refuse to let a mesmer, an elementalist and an engineer talk about how strong S/D thief is and what nerfs it needs.

If you want to make a list of what classes contribute to the team as a whole I am 100 percent sure S/D thief will be last.

If you do not wish to listen to complaints of other classes then read Nyqwist his post on the previous page. He plays d/p thief on a competitive level and has a fair opinion of how stupid s/d is in its current state.

nyqwist.2360:

…
Before this last major patch (June 25th), personally, I did actually enjoy the game a lot. The only thing pre-patch that I felt like was over the top were the Sword/Dagger thief and is also what I would like to post about, since I am playing as one. The ”balance” last patch did not really change anything.
…

Vanish and Nyqwist are probably the best thief’s out there at this point in time. “Top tier thiefs” like Lady nag nag that some people claim are so good, in my eyes and many other players eyes (including thiefs) only came to their level of “skill” due their s/d build.

RaZaC.1963:

If you do not wish to listen to complaints of other classes then read Nyqwist his post on the previous page. He plays d/p thief on a competitive level and has a fair opinion of how stupid s/d is in its current state.

I already responded back to all the people that put forward and claimed that either S/D Thief is OP or that S/D Thief is a must or without S/D Thief they can’t play competitively. I made clear points on what makes a S/D Thief strong and what doesn’t as well as refuting their initial claims (see first sentence)

I never replied because an engineer, a mesmer and an elementalist specifically said some things and specifically requested heavily nerfs. That only added up to the irony and hypocrisy of those specific classes asking for specific nerfs on a Thief.

nyqwist.2360:

…
Before this last major patch (June 25th), personally, I did actually enjoy the game a lot. The only thing pre-patch that I felt like was over the top were the Sword/Dagger thief and is also what I would like to post about, since I am playing as one. The ”balance” last patch did not really change anything.
…

Most thieves either rerolled or went back to D/P and started doing World vs World because they don’t enjoy the playstyle of an S/D, out of pride/ego/calligitwhateve you want.

No thief, including my self, defend the playstyle of S/D. But at the same time that was the exact same thing when we were using D/D and then D/P showed up. It is the same circle.

Others stayed and excelled in S/D.Build variety is great because it brings new players that excel in specific builds. You won’t find a thief who excels in every single Thief build. That is the way it should be.

If there was no balance patch and no Necromancer shifting meta and thus no CC Warrior, then I would be the first one to state objectively that S/D Thief is too strong not to have. Now there is a variation with team comps and there is still a bit of time to experiment more (bringing a CC Warrior or bringing a D/P Thief or bringing them both).

With your logic I can safely call out that every single top tier shattered mesmer has been carried by AI and build. We can do this train for every single one-shot build of every single class since day one.

the problem with the s/d thief though is that it snowballs ridiculously hard – if one of your dps is getting trained by an s/d thief it’s really hard to peel for the guy being trained, he needs to go defensive immediately as he dies otherwise in a few seconds.
thus taking off a lot of pressure from his own team in the teamfight while having a necro spamming marks for the constant aoe pressure – your dps will go down eventually and if you try to go for the thief he’ll just reset while you get eaten alive by conditions.
so if the player that was being trained by the thief now is in down state the thief can just swap target and still have all of his burst/pressure up, due to its design making fights really snowbally as he can just start to train another target that now needs to be on the defensive instantly again.
meanwhile you have a bomb engi just funneling into far that will decap the point eventually and with supply crate up being a really tough match up to take 1v1.
overall the comp is really kitten simple and easy to play – the current meta and the current game is too dumped down skillwise imo.

i have one suggestion that would actually adress 3 of the 4 classes that currently feel kinda mandatory due to their low skill floor ( not saying anything about the skillcap ) is changing the function of the burning traits being dhuumfire, incendiary ammo and the sun spirit burning procc.
add a tooltip icon into the players buff bar ( engis/necroes/players affected by sun spirit) that informs the opposing player that the next attack will procc burning – if he dodges this attack the procc will vanish and trigger the traits icd thus introducing actual counterplay to the mindless condition spam right now.

also s/d thiefs #3 ability is completely flawed in design and broken – it just does way too much while pretty much every other skill in this weaponset pales in comparison.

dont trie to fix the current mess

revert last patch necro fixes and patch the old necro

remove torment – dont see how this did any good to the game

My main was a nec in PvP, until the recent balance patch. Since that and the lack of unrated/solo que I do fractals on guard..

‘But why if nec is op?’ – you may ask. But I don’t like it. I just have to give up any kind of customization, even the small amount of survivability through soul reaping, because the burning + terror beats everything. I rush in, kill or die in 5 seconds, instead of the old ‘dominating from the background and ressing teammates with signet of undeath’ thing.

Nec was not the best before patch, but if you know ow to use it, you could be successful.

Just give us more life force generation, remove burning, nerf fear damage, bring back old signet of undeath and that’s all, nec is balanced.

Otherwise, the skill changes are fine.

Gandarel.5091:

My main was a nec in PvP, until the recent balance patch. Since that and the lack of unrated/solo que I do fractals on guard..

‘But why if nec is op?’ – you may ask. But I don’t like it. I just have to give up any kind of customization, even the small amount of survivability through soul reaping, because the burning + terror beats everything. I rush in, kill or die in 5 seconds, instead of the old ‘dominating from the background and ressing teammates with signet of undeath’ thing.

Nec was not the best before patch, but if you know ow to use it, you could be successful.

Just give us more life force generation, remove burning, nerf fear damage, bring back old signet of undeath and that’s all, nec is balanced.

Otherwise, the skill changes are fine.

Remove burning AND reduce fear damage? Wow that would bury necro. We would be worse than before by far.

Completly agree with Battosai. Had to fight against 2xs/d thiefs, 1xele, 1 guard, 1xnecro yesterday. And I really have to say I cant do a kitten against such a comp. If I try to spike the necro, the s/d thieves will shadow refuge and ele will jump me and I go down. If I try to jump the Ele my team gets eaten by conditions and the thieves jump me and I go down. In addition I have two handle two S/D Thiefs which I cannot hit due to the ridicoulus amount of evades and they kill me in 5-6 hits when I have cd on water – again I need teleport to disengange the stun or immobilize but oh wait he just ports back to me again. These Guys can snowball low hp classes so kittening hard its not even funny. You need to kill someone and pressure the guard heavily so that the have to rezz – then you might be lucky.
If you are skilled you can dodge mesmer burst or you can dodge ele burst and also d/p burst can be avoided. But you are not able to get rid of such a thief…its not possible and stunbreaker or not he is still able to port out of danger zone and in the mean time you still have to handle (some unblockable) necro attacks – You dont even see what necro is casting….everything looks the same – Even asura engineer flamethrower knockback is more predictable I would say. Every single ele will tell you thakittens hard to deal with that combo because you are the easiest target for them after the mesmer (even necros have more sustain due to plaque).
I dont think that the holy mesmer, ele, guard triangle was good in the past but I think it was more balanced than currently because one could dodge there attacks.

But we will see what they are doing on tuesday.

At Henry: I know its funny for you to play a necro and even before the patch you were one of the best necros in the game. But tell me how often have you been able to jump a mesmer or ele and kill him with a 1hit by your conditions since latest patch? I think conditions were not designed to work like that. They should kill the target by steady pressure and bypass of toughness.

The notion that people are upset that Anet finnaly did an actual balance patch is moronic at best.

People embranced the patch and the slight speed up to the “slow and steady”, we need more balance patches like it, many more, to get this game into competitive shape.

The problem was not the patch, but the fact that 1 month later and there has not been a single impactful nerf to the things they over buffed OR fix to bugs that they introduced. Big balance patches are good, especially for a game needing so much itteration to become more competitive. Big balance changes followed by weeks of silence are NOT good. The fact that the games first major tourny is a week away only compounds peoples frustrations.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Xeph.4513:

snip

The meta is different now. Get over it. Change is good. A changed meta is good.

Yeh some of the “top” players might be kitten because they all relied on the opness of mesmer/ele/guardian and now they are worse compared to necro they find out they aren’t really as good as they think they are.

Changes to the meta should be welcomed. If your personal class is worse then boo hoo. Necros had a class strictly worse than engi for 6 months +.

Should they nerf necro? Yes. Should we listen to everyone wanting the same old kitten with mesmer/ele/guardian being required in all teams? God no. Its lame.

I titled the thread “State of the meta”, sadly at the moment the meta revolves around “Necro, S/D Thief and Spirit Ranger / Engi” being must haves.

You would be very short sighted to assume that I am trying to post this for some sort of self benefit, I have always called for certain AoE’s to be nerfed and that no more AoE should be increased or brought into the game, because it was getting very obvious things would descend into this sort of madness.

Regardless since you believe that I am out to get Necro and Thief, here is a link to a post made by a team mate of mine regarding things we would like to see nerfed if s/d thief and necro are brought down.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Constructive-balance-lists-go-here/page/3#post2446289

you can clearly see that we ask for damage nerf on mesmer and elementalist, to avoid them being the dominant classes in the meta aswell; basically all we are asking is bring back actual skilled play and none of this aoe spam that is happening in the current meta.

Also please the topic on point.

Regardless of whether anyone likes/doesn’t like this meta/prevalent prof. , it’s just pathetic how some teams refuse/are unable to adapt to changes and feel like their losses are undeserved. Seemingly OP speccs are no excuse and adapting is part of being a top team/player, if you can’t you aren’t one.
P.S.: This comment is not directly related to TP/Xeph, rather a message to every team that does behave that way.

Balance suggestions thrown out there at random…

1) burning on trait

We seem to forget eles have it too, but nobody uses it and nobody complains about it ( but..but…it’s like pre-nerf incendiary powder, according to the tooltip !!!!)

Wrong, it’s only 1 sec burning on crit.

PUFF, BALANCED.

2) S/D thieves

Yeah, it’s ridicolous. I play S/D thief myself, i know that in a teamfight it’s impossible to get rid of it.

It’s not OP, just too annoying and too strong snowballing low HP/defense classes.

Currently it seems gamebreaking simply because there’s too much AoE condi pressure.

The problem is regarding the skill floor being too low, but this is due to design flaws regarding the set.

You can’t nerf ini costs anymore, you need to rehaul other skills on OH dagger to be more rewarding and give FS→LS chain less.

they should really rise the skill floor of thieves, i can understand players frustrations, especially at the top.

3) AoE

AoE can’t be stronger than single target. Anet seriously needs to make single target DPS stronger than AoE, it’s ridicolous to have a ( for example) Grasping Dead potentially dealing 5x damage than Dark Path simply thanks to its AoE nature.

Enfeebling blood is another example: 10secs of weakness FOR THE ENTIRE ENEMY TEAM is ridicolous, a necro can totally shut down and destroy everything.

AoE has always been a problem and design flaw, now it’s really too much.

Erwin.5603:

Regardless of whether anyone likes/doesn’t like this meta/prevalent prof. , it’s just pathetic how some teams refuse/are unable to adapt to changes and feel like their losses are undeserved. Seemingly OP speccs are no excuse and adapting is part of being a top team/player, if you can’t you aren’t one.
P.S.: This comment is not directly related to TP/Xeph, rather a message to every team that does behave that way.

Teams are able to adapt to the meta, its not an issue at all; we can sit there and practice these classes and this meta over and over until we have it on lockdown.
The main issue being discussed here, does anyone really like playing the current meta, well the answer to that is a resounding “No”, and that is the problem we have with the current meta.
It takes everything that we loved about this game and has thrown it outside the window, there have been many meta shifts through out the game, and a lot of balance patches that have changed how the game is being played; we are just expressing how we believe this is the worst of them.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Remove burning AND reduce fear damage? Wow that would bury necro. We would be worse than before by far.

You’ve got Torment. If they change the Dhuumfire trait to Torment on crit, we’d be toned down but Necros would still have good damage. Torment is a powerful condition. Add more ways to stack it and you have a very formidable attrition profession.

Xeph.4513:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Xeph.4513:

snip

The meta is different now. Get over it. Change is good. A changed meta is good.

Yeh some of the “top” players might be kitten because they all relied on the opness of mesmer/ele/guardian and now they are worse compared to necro they find out they aren’t really as good as they think they are.

Changes to the meta should be welcomed. If your personal class is worse then boo hoo. Necros had a class strictly worse than engi for 6 months +.

Should they nerf necro? Yes. Should we listen to everyone wanting the same old kitten with mesmer/ele/guardian being required in all teams? God no. Its lame.

I titled the thread “State of the meta”, sadly at the moment the meta revolves around “Necro, S/D Thief and Spirit Ranger / Engi” being must haves.

You would be very short sighted to assume that I am trying to post this for some sort of self benefit, I have always called for certain AoE’s to be nerfed and that no more AoE should be increased or brought into the game, because it was getting very obvious things would descend into this sort of madness.

Regardless since you believe that I am out to get Necro and Thief, here is a link to a post made by a team mate of mine regarding things we would like to see nerfed if s/d thief and necro are brought down.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Constructive-balance-lists-go-here/page/3#post2446289

you can clearly see that we ask for damage nerf on mesmer and elementalist, to avoid them being the dominant classes in the meta aswell; basically all we are asking is bring back actual skilled play and none of this aoe spam that is happening in the current meta.

Also please the topic on point.

Fair enough. Look in a pvp world where kittenbags outnumber good people 10:1, I must say TP = everything right with pvp. You guys are a credit to the game. However, I was just pointing out my views on balance. I agree they should be nerfed but I dont want a return to the same old BS of ele/mesmer/guardian. And EVERYONE is biassed. You must be too.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Xeph.4513:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Xeph.4513:

snip

The meta is different now. Get over it. Change is good. A changed meta is good.

Yeh some of the “top” players might be kitten because they all relied on the opness of mesmer/ele/guardian and now they are worse compared to necro they find out they aren’t really as good as they think they are.

Changes to the meta should be welcomed. If your personal class is worse then boo hoo. Necros had a class strictly worse than engi for 6 months +.

Should they nerf necro? Yes. Should we listen to everyone wanting the same old kitten with mesmer/ele/guardian being required in all teams? God no. Its lame.

I titled the thread “State of the meta”, sadly at the moment the meta revolves around “Necro, S/D Thief and Spirit Ranger / Engi” being must haves.

You would be very short sighted to assume that I am trying to post this for some sort of self benefit, I have always called for certain AoE’s to be nerfed and that no more AoE should be increased or brought into the game, because it was getting very obvious things would descend into this sort of madness.

Regardless since you believe that I am out to get Necro and Thief, here is a link to a post made by a team mate of mine regarding things we would like to see nerfed if s/d thief and necro are brought down.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Constructive-balance-lists-go-here/page/3#post2446289

you can clearly see that we ask for damage nerf on mesmer and elementalist, to avoid them being the dominant classes in the meta aswell; basically all we are asking is bring back actual skilled play and none of this aoe spam that is happening in the current meta.

Also please the topic on point.

Fair enough. Look in a pvp world where kittenbags outnumber good people 10:1, I must say TP = everything right with pvp. You guys are a credit to the game. However, I was just pointing out my views on balance. I agree they should be nerfed but I dont want a return to the same old BS of ele/mesmer/guardian. And EVERYONE is biassed. You must be too.

The thing is I would rather avoid being biassed and seeing this game succeed, because whatever we achieve in this game would be for naught if the game fails to meet expectations; and as a person playing this game at the moment, it feels to me like I would rather not be playing, since its not an enjoyable experience anymore.
I would rather be playing other games, the reason I stick around is for my team.

Regardless thank you for your understanding and kind words.

Dirame.8521:

I think what Anet wants you to do is find a counter to the meta but apparently we are too busy whining to do that. You want someone in some high ranking team to do the same thing Super Squad did when they ran a Warrior with Battle Standard, or when Teldo went back to playing Flamethrower/Bomb kit. You’re not willing to counter the meta, only willing to complain about it.

Yes and No. You’re not wrong but its not right.

They did exactly the same in GW1, forcing the meta by overbuffing certain things (such as hexes) to move a stale meta into hex/condi etc. This seems fine in principal as a shifting meta makes competitive play more varied, however, what they always seemed to do and have done now is forget that some players don’t want to be carried by their comp or forced into playing a particular counter comp.

There are some players out there who don’t want to jump on the best chance of success bandwagon dictated by the meta and instead would prefer to beat such comps on their own merits by running a balanced comp and outplaying such teams. The problem is that they always forget to bolster the skills/traits etc. needed for balanced comps to be successful at doing this without relying on a massive skill gap. If you get a really good hard meta comp team vs an equally skilled balanced team when the game is in a forced meta change such as this then the balanced team can’t work hard enough to get the advantage back – and that’s always a problem.

I’m sure the OP knows that he could run a certain counter comp (2 stunlock warriors as per your suggestion) but where is the satisfaction in playing rock vs scissors? Some people want to win on their own merits and when they can’t then any incentive for playing just goes out of the window. That’s not right.

I’m still surprised how little outrage there’s been about the poison and weakness bugs until this thread. Those issues just blow my mind.

Nukk.3492:

Dirame.8521:

I think what Anet wants you to do is find a counter to the meta but apparently we are too busy whining to do that. You want someone in some high ranking team to do the same thing Super Squad did when they ran a Warrior with Battle Standard, or when Teldo went back to playing Flamethrower/Bomb kit. You’re not willing to counter the meta, only willing to complain about it.

Yes and No. You’re not wrong but its not right.

They did exactly the same in GW1, forcing the meta by overbuffing certain things (such as hexes) to move a stale meta into hex/condi etc. This seems fine in principal as a shifting meta makes competitive play more varied, however, what they always seemed to do and have done now is forget that some players don’t want to be carried by their comp or forced into playing a particular counter comp.

There are some players out there who don’t want to jump on the best chance of success bandwagon dictated by the meta and instead would prefer to beat such comps on their own merits by running a balanced comp and outplaying such teams. The problem is that they always forget to bolster the skills/traits etc. needed for balanced comps to be successful at doing this without relying on a massive skill gap. If you get a really good hard meta comp team vs an equally skilled balanced team when the game is in a forced meta change such as this then the balanced team can’t work hard enough to get the advantage back – and that’s always a problem.

I’m sure the OP knows that he could run a certain counter comp (2 stunlock warriors as per your suggestion) but where is the satisfaction in playing rock vs scissors? Some people want to win on their own merits and when they can’t then any incentive for playing just goes out of the window. That’s not right.

Quoted for truth.
+1

Nukk.3492:

Yes and No. You’re not wrong but its not right.

They did exactly the same in GW1, forcing the meta by overbuffing certain things (such as hexes) to move a stale meta into hex/condi etc. This seems fine in principal as a shifting meta makes competitive play more varied, however, what they always seemed to do and have done now is forget that some players don’t want to be carried by their comp or forced into playing a particular counter comp.

There are some players out there who don’t want to jump on the best chance of success bandwagon dictated by the meta and instead would prefer to beat such comps on their own merits by running a balanced comp and outplaying such teams. The problem is that they always forget to bolster the skills/traits etc. needed for balanced comps to be successful at doing this without relying on a massive skill gap. If you get a really good hard meta comp team vs an equally skilled balanced team when the game is in a forced meta change such as this then the balanced team can’t work hard enough to get the advantage back – and that’s always a problem.

I’m sure the OP knows that he could run a certain counter comp (2 stunlock warriors as per your suggestion) but where is the satisfaction in playing rock vs scissors? Some people want to win on their own merits and when they can’t then any incentive for playing just goes out of the window. That’s not right.

Well, then you’ll find my suggestion to buff things that will be mutually beneficial to all parties right up that alley.

I’m not the kind of person to say people shouldn’t play what they love or know how to play or enjoy playing. I just don’t feel it’s right for them to complain about the status quo if they are not willing to adapt.

Also, like I said earlier, the counter to the current meta is another hilariously bordering on OP extreme that needs a tad toning down as well.

Engi: Engi is OP too, they just spam dodge with perma vigor and throw bombs and blast them to whatever they want while they can elixir res twice with toolkit trait and decap faster than the speed of lightning with the amount of KBs.

Thief: I used to play acrobatics thief 4-8 months ago, back then thieves had the dmg to go sustain but at the moment the usual 30 acrobatics spec we see dont even have the power to prevent a single guy from ressing a downed target, so ye thief might be jumping up and down and being annoying but the dmg is too low and too slow. Also with all the sbow nerfs on thief, thief is literaly 1 step to get out of the meta completely either u like it or not.

Necro: Necros are over the top at the moment with the condi burst/presure they have BUT they still remain easy targets.

Elly: More burst than glass cannon thieves can be area burst too and alot of healing. and a huge amount of blinds which let them sustain enough

Authority.6145:

I never replied because an engineer, a mesmer and an elementalist specifically said some things and specifically requested heavily nerfs. That only added up to the irony and hypocrisy of those specific classes asking for specific nerfs on a Thief.

Because you are of the opinion that those classes are imbalanced? Classes that have trouble dealing with something will complain about it sometimes they complain to complain but in this case I personally don’t believe that true.

Authority.6145:

nyqwist.2360:

…
Before this last major patch (June 25th), personally, I did actually enjoy the game a lot. The only thing pre-patch that I felt like was over the top were the Sword/Dagger thief and is also what I would like to post about, since I am playing as one. The ”balance” last patch did not really change anything.
…

No thief, including my self, defend the playstyle of S/D. But at the same time that was the exact same thing when we were using D/D and then D/P showed up. It is the same circle.

Others stayed and excelled in S/D.Build variety is great because it brings new players that excel in specific builds. You won’t find a thief who excels in every single Thief build. That is the way it should be.

Sure class diversity is a great thing but you are not actually trying to say that running d/p is superior in a tournament game over d/p? 90% of the thief’s runs s/d and that is not what i would call class diversity.

Authority.6145:

If there was no balance patch and no Necromancer shifting meta and thus no CC Warrior, then I would be the first one to state objectively that S/D Thief is too strong not to have. Now there is a variation with team comps and there is still a bit of time to experiment more (bringing a CC Warrior or bringing a D/P Thief or bringing them both).

Because of the Necromancer the S/D thief shines even more as explained in posts above me. And I do question the knowledge of a player suggesting to run cc warriors in tournaments. At this point there is a clear “strongest” composition that dominates competitive PvP scene:

• Guardian (since beta)
• Elementalist (great in terms of being balanced)
• Node figher Engie (If elixir R would be nerfed this build / class is also in a great spot balance wise)
• Necromancer (since last patch, out of control AOE 1200 range CONDI spam that needs fixing)
• S/D Thiefs (Shine even more since last patch due to the fact that they are the only class that can evade AOE condi cleave while dishing out constant melee pressure with a instant safe my kitten button.)

S/D should be more easy to punish for running into a group of enemies while the rest of his team is doing range damage.

Authority.6145:

With your logic I can safely call out that every single top tier shattered mesmer has been carried by AI and build. We can do this train for every single one-shot build of every single class since day one.

I did not mention AI, Mesmers are squishy and get killed by almost everything in 1v1 situations, they should be prime targets in team fights because of portal/illusion play and their large amount of range GS damage.