Guild Wars 2

3 bunkers, 1 DPS, and 1 Roamer.

Overall, a great patch and a step in the right direction. I saw that some skills have become unblockable, the block bug was fixed (A lot of Guardians were exploiting it, no matter what they tell you) and “Save Yourselves” is a lot better.

Having said that, tho, bunkers are still incredibly strong, and so still much needed in a tPvP format.

Now, it is a Domination game type, and I am understanding of the fact that point defenders are needed in this type of format. But you have to see what the rest of us are seeing when it comes to dealing with them.

1 v 1, your chances are very slim to none in defeating a bunker.

2 v 1, your chances increase significantly, but it is still considered to be more of a duel than pure ownage, in relation to the time and effort it takes to down the bunker. And even then, we’re still not able to down them sometimes.

I have seen great bunkers survive 3 v 1’s, but I put that blame on myself and my 2 other team mates (who are usually pugs) because we don’t really coordinate our attacks; we still treat it as 1 v 1.

Since it is only 5 v 5, this puts your team at a great disadvantage if you have to consider manpower and time in taking away a node from just 1 player, let alone having the roamer come in and help (which, there are some great ones out there).

My personal opinion is that bunkers negatively impact the whole game (PvP), the competitiveness, and the outcome of the match because the focus is only placed on surviving, not outplaying your opponent.

100% agree…

I don’t worry about dealing with anything else. I don’t get nearly as annoyed when dealing with anything else. I’d so much rather play as anything else.

This bunker stuff really is just taking shots at my enthusiasm for pvp. It’s just…too safe of a play style. And what honestly counters it? Getting the point before them then bunkering yourself.The only other thing that works remotely well is using knock backs to at least neutralize the point. And you have to have some good knockbacks. It’s really detrimental and single handedly killing the fun for me. I’m only assuming it’s carefully being analyzed and will just take some time.

garbage. lets wait for next weeks’ blog. decent thief nerf, but they still have way too much freedom and now we’re back to HS spam (4-5 consecutive casts, 3-4k each), which is a bit better i guess.

But it wasn’t a thief nerf, and honestly it should be. Making assassins signet go from 150% dmg 1 attack to making the next 5 attacks do 15% more damage is a buff.

Yes they don’t get the big numbers with the backstabs which makes using the signet idiot proof now.

Mug – 15% more dmg
CnD – 15% more dmg
Backstab – 15% more dmg
Heartseeker – 15% more dmg
Heartseeker – 15% more dmg

Your dead.

If anything it has gotten worse to play against thieves.

I’ll take the 50% more damage on backstab compared to making that stupid combo do 75% more damage. At least with the 50% more Dmg on backstab if they screwed up they had to wait to try it again.

What I see most people are asking for is simple:

A. Fix the render issue so thieves appear after becoming de-cloaked
B. Increase the “Revealed” Debuff, I would double it. Make it go from 3 secs to 6 secs. Thus it fixes A.

I appreciate the effort but honestly I feel you guys are going the wrong way.

Actually, they buffed bunker ele making healing boost affect Cone of Cold more. =p

Hard control generally gives bunkers a hard time. Unless they have stability all the time (and thanks to some changes, that’s harder to accomplish) you can interrupt key skills and depending on the profession/build, just move them off the point and cap it anyway. The other option is to just have a heavy pressure build force them out of cool downs.

Control though isn’t some easy archetype to play, since you need to know what a lot of key abilities look like, and know when to apply your methods. You also need good reflexes, and the ability to think ahead of your foe. Since it isn’t about making big numbers or really being flashy people aren’t drawn to it.

The reason bunkers are so strong is cause for about the past 2 months almost everyone has been trying to run explosive, blow-all-your-cool-downs-to-score-kills builds, rather than exploring more balanced or unconventional builds. People blow all their crap, bunker brick-walls, and then you die cause you’re out of steam. Then, people think they don’t do enough damage. When the real problem is the delivery of that damage and how you actually put the hurt on people makes a huge difference.

nobody rolls 3 bunker…

Numot.3965:

Hard control generally gives bunkers a hard time. Unless they have stability all the time (and thanks to some changes, that’s harder to accomplish) you can interrupt key skills and depending on the profession/build, just move them off the point and cap it anyway. The other option is to just have a heavy pressure build force them out of cool downs.

Control though isn’t some easy archetype to play, since you need to know what a lot of key abilities look like, and know when to apply your methods. You also need good reflexes, and the ability to think ahead of your foe. Since it isn’t about making big numbers or really being flashy people aren’t drawn to it.

The reason bunkers are so strong is cause for about the past 2 months almost everyone has been trying to run explosive, blow-all-your-cool-downs-to-score-kills builds, rather than exploring more balanced or unconventional builds. People blow all their crap, bunker brick-walls, and then you die cause you’re out of steam. Then, people think they don’t do enough damage. When the real problem is the delivery of that damage and how you actually put the hurt on people makes a huge difference.

No, you shouldn’t blow all your CD’s and expect magic to happen.

But look at it this way. While I’m paying attention to the bunker and what boons he has up (Stability, Aegis, Retal, etc) and timing my skills accordingly, he’s more focused on his CD’s and his own health bar, therefore I’m really playing against the bunkers’ boons (or turrets, in some cases) rather than the player himself.

He does not have to put much effort in to actually playing against me, other than dodging MOA (if Mesmer).

So then it doesn’t even come down to (x played better/is more skillful than y, therefore x beats y). It’s more like the bunker is playing the game of (z is off of CD, activate now).

Numot.3965:

Hard control generally gives bunkers a hard time. Unless they have stability all the time (and thanks to some changes, that’s harder to accomplish) you can interrupt key skills and depending on the profession/build, just move them off the point and cap it anyway. The other option is to just have a heavy pressure build force them out of cool downs.

Control though isn’t some easy archetype to play, since you need to know what a lot of key abilities look like, and know when to apply your methods. You also need good reflexes, and the ability to think ahead of your foe. Since it isn’t about making big numbers or really being flashy people aren’t drawn to it.

The reason bunkers are so strong is cause for about the past 2 months almost everyone has been trying to run explosive, blow-all-your-cool-downs-to-score-kills builds, rather than exploring more balanced or unconventional builds. People blow all their crap, bunker brick-walls, and then you die cause you’re out of steam. Then, people think they don’t do enough damage. When the real problem is the delivery of that damage and how you actually put the hurt on people makes a huge difference.

So, you approach the bunker and wait to blow your CD’s. The bunker realizes this and pretty much saves all of his stuff or just stands there because he is a bunker. Time on the offense side just becomes wasted.

The problem has to do with how easy it is to sit on a point defending vs killing them. I don’t understand why that should be the case. The game is about killing and fighting…that’s what were here for! I know there is a lot of mind games involved but still. Killing a bunker should be a matter of time, not a matter of being able to or not.

It is a matter of time, any prof can solo a bunker given enough time… I seriously dont know where all this misinformation comes from.

The only bunker you can’t solo is guardian.

As a bunker engineer there’s really nothing I can do vs necros, rangers, and thieves who use condition damage properly so I really don’t get why people complain about bunker builds when only 1 prof does it effectively.

The meta is rly close to wow arenas atm. And the sad thing is all the so called"big" teams use this cheeze ele/guardian/mesmer with some more bunker oriented proffesions. Even mediocre playes with no spvp experience and 0 communication can roll this setup and win most games with little to no effort. Talking smack about the holy trinity and how gw2 is going to give players interesting and DYNAMIC pvp is starting to sounds like the cake joke form Portal.
The problem isn’t just the milions of kids playing bunkers , it’s how much bunkers you can get on a team. When a bunker guardian with a spirit hammer and a bomb bunker engi get on your close point from the 1-st minute and 2 mesmers with a bunker guardian spamming the kitten out on mid , you kind of see all the things that need fixing. I have nothing against tank builds , but Anet have stated over and over again that it is intended for dps/brust oriented builds to destroy full all in tanking builds so the game can be DYNAMIC and interesting from the 1-st to the last secound.
I rly hope that they will look into all the slackers just afk-in in tournaments playing 5 condition/tank builds , because this so called meta is actually loosing player base.
And there are alot of other things like the mesmers on Kylo , wich have a 10sec run time for a reb-rep .
People who cry constantly about thiefs , should rly stop playing hot joins and start thinking of ways to adapt their gamestyle and reactions to thiefs. It’s like 2-3months now , you should be able to know what a thief would do to you if u don’t react. The same thing a warrior will do if he bullcharges you and even more.
Another thing is , thiefs in teamfights with mesmers and eles involved (every single match in structured) strugle to survive and allmost never go mele weps. This is to say that after you finally down someone , you can’t stop because of aoe trigger happy elementalists.
Another thing , me and my team have notised in the past couple of weeks is that when you down a tank , he can get ressed so fast , that everything you’ve done dies in vain. I ask you Anet , why is ressing players and some dowstate mechanics so fast and unblockable. Why is after rally hp so high when on a bunker. Why in the revive faster than the finish. Why is the mesmer doing ~~ 7-9k dmg during his downed state. Why is the warr hitting for 2k rocks. Why is the guardian push on a class like the guardian and not on a class like the elementalist. Why the ranger can beat everysingle class in a downstate showdown.

With regards,

“I’ll take the 50% more damage on backstab compared to making that stupid combo do 75% more damage. At least with the 50% more Dmg on backstab if they screwed up they had to wait to try it again.”

People will never learn; they are lazy, they allways blame the other guy, they refuse to being proactive, and basically they are completely daft; and mostly, they are stupid, as in, down sindrome stupid.
If i make a post detailing the intrincacies and mechanics behind damage, damage reduction, and present the very basic maths behind it, ill get replies contesting the obvious, trying to get their own twisted view of the facts by presenting non facts, etc.
Ive got that in guru, despite very infrequent, but here, its out of control; peoples only desire seem to be just look good in a forum, instead of getting good at the game, and that is what’s behind unnecessary nerfs, then consequently buffs to previous state, watever, you guys know the drill.
Merciless is once again behind another QQ post, and whats worse, he has followers… watever.
OK, now that we have my rant out of the way (i do have the right to a rant, dont i?), lets see what anet has done to please the masses:
If i recall correctly, the complaint about the BS combo was that “one dies so quick we dont even have time to react”; putting aside the fact that you people dont bring stunbreaks, blocks, etc., and are mostly not paying attention (wich leads to you guys not see the thief coming), and, above all, are BACKPEDALLERS (also known as baddies), the truth is, most of you dont even have an ounce of understanding of the game, and that leads to comments like the one i have at the start of this post…
Saying that this change to the signet is a buff, is not understanding the goal of anet here, wich was to extend the duration of the BS combo, to give you guys some more time to react; it also did one thing: they did not nerf us thieves, the signet now works in a different manner, but is still viable, so anet pleased us all, wich is politically correct, if i may say so.
Why i say this? well, because its not a buff from 50% to 75%, in fact, the backstab combo was reduced in ~ 10% dmg, wich forces your opponent to use a couple more moves to finish you off… you guys now have more time to react now, so be happy…
Using the proposed combo, C&D->steal->BS, and assuming that cloak and steal hits for 4.5k and backstab hits for 9k, before the patch we had a total of 22.5k dmg when using the signet, now we have 5175+5175+10350, wich is 20700 dmg … this is a target that never invested in tufness, was never worried that such hits could occur, and therefore, he deserves to die; if this target decides to put some tufness in his armor, this will get even more deflected, resulting in getting to a point where th BS combo will not kill him instantly, leaving him some leeway to counter attack, and most of the times, kill the assailant.
What i loved more about this change, is that anet actually did what most QQ’rs wanted, nerf signet, but they didnt really nerfed the BS that much, you guys are still gonna die like flies to it, and more important, this signet can now be used to buff multihit skills, is much more atractive now in my eyes, i never really liked it before, you all should read this change as anet telling you: “dudes, less QQ, more tufness/blocks/stunbreaks/l2p”.

You can rant, Eduardo, but… it’s kind of pointless here.

In your (leet?) mind, what is the difference between a constructive post and a QQ post?

I never mentioned the Backstab nerf. I made another thread about it Sunday night before the patch hit. I agree with the Backstab nerf. Now, everybody will actually have time to react to other skills rather than getting 1-shotted by an invisible skill.

And I don’t see it as Anet saying “dudes, less QQ, more tufness/blocks/stunbreaks/l2p”. Unless that is an actual quote from an Anet dev. If not, please don’t put things like that in quotes.

In the second half of your post, you say “to give you guys some more time to react”, thus putting yourself above the rest of us lowbies because in your eyes we should have been fast enough to dodge you while you teleported right next to us invisible and pressed 1 button. It sounds condescending.

And you don’t mention anything about bunkers, and you don’t refer to my post at all, other than to say that it’s a QQ post, which, again, is condescending.

But thank you for the free bump.

@ Fenixz “Anet have stated over and over again that it is intended for dps/brust oriented builds to destroy full all in tanking builds so the game can be DYNAMIC and interesting from the 1-st to the last secound.”

Yes they have said it repeatedly, each time they do it is dumb. It has been brought up several times if full on burst counters full on bunker then by proxy burst counters condition( it can kill them before they stack conditions), if the glass cannon burst can then counter other burst because of their low defenses and health then all that is left in the meta is burst.

If a bunker cannot stalemate a dps 1v1 then they are pointless, why would you have one if a thief can come burst them down in a few seconds? The hard counter to many bunkers are condition builds( arena net follows this even if they pretend they dont e.×. poison reducing the effectiveness of healing), this does not mean that they should instantly kill a bunker but 1 condition should be able to whittle a bunker down over time; with the amount of time needed exponentially decreasing with the number advantage.

This breaks down into the following meta: Burst kills condition before they can destroy bunkers, bunkers soaks up burst till allied condition or burst arrives to kill the attackers, CC prevents healing and rezzing, Support counters this by facilitating healing and rezzing. This is a lot more interesting than a burst arms race. It allows for several builds and classes to take part in competition and develop their niche.

Many of you say that the fact that burst isnt able to instantly kill bunkers is preventing GW2 from being e-sport material, I would say that it is the only thing that could allow it to be.

This isn’t about burst-dps being able to instantly kill a bunker build. It’s about bunker builds holding out indefinitely vs any one other build and sometimes vs two other players. I really don’t see why you think bunker builds should be able to completely withstand anyone. That sounds a little biased…

Sprinkles.6748:

This isn’t about burst-dps being able to instantly kill a bunker build. It’s about bunker builds holding out indefinitely vs any one other build and sometimes vs two other players. I really don’t see why you think bunker builds should be able to completely withstand anyone. That sounds a little biased…

Because as I said above if they cant withstand 1 person for a decent period of time then they are not needed, if they are not needed then condition damage is not needed, that only leaves burst for most efficient play. Burst implies large amounts of quick front loaded damage, for a burst to take out a bunker it would have to do so quickly with its “burst” What is not to get here? Honestly people who think you should beat a bunker with burst rather than sustained dps, or conditions seem biased towards those classes.

I used to be a bunker, but never agian. Being a bunker sucks and is quite boring at the moment. I am either babysitting a node twiddling my thumbs for most of the game, or I am facing 1 person who I just trade blows with until he gets bored and leaves, or I am steamrolled by a large group focusing fire and using conditions( which then your team rages that you couldnt handle 4 ppl for the two minutes).

None of that is fun for either team imo, nor is it fun to have to fill a role your profession is pigeonholed into. Like I said before bunkers should curb burst damage from instantly bursting everyone down, in a bunkers drops in one big burst then they are not needed. Please elaborate on how this new meta will evolve when burst is king? I have clearly stated how I think the meta does/should pan out, I would like someone to do the same

They definitely need work, sustained healing and condition removal need a serious lookover from the devs. Right now there are bunker builds that can hold indefinitely against condition and sustained damage builds, this is absurd. Bunkers should have to blow everything to counter a burst blowing everthing, this way burst curbed. Both sides should have to give it there all; this means that a burst can blow their wad and leave if the bunker doesnt make a mistake but if the bunker makes a mistake they die. If anything this system still favors burst.

Yea… this is on the list of things that make gw2 pvp not fun, over half your typical team comps has a boring job.

Another Merciless QQ post.

Metas do not change overnight. People will try the same methods untill new methods that defeat them are used.

However, in a capture and hold, bunkers and roamers are going to be powerful no matter what, because that’s’ the core design of the game type. It has little or nothing to do with power of bunkers in sPvP. If it was deathmatch, bunkers would be a waste of space because they would either get focused one on one or their allies would continually die around them.

You don’t ruin effective game type builds. Fixing the Aegis issues will balance out Guardian a bit better against other bunkers, and changing assassin’s signet tones Thief Down as a gib roamer. (Yes, it’s more damage over time, but the over time part isn’t the issue with thief, it’s the burst. Now there is more time to react.)

Complaining about the party composition we have for Capture and Hold is like complaining that the meta is 1 support, 1 ranged dps, 1 tanky dps, 1 jungle, and 1 AP mid in League of Legends.

That’s not broken, that’s what the game is settling itself into.

Of course the meta won’t change overnight, but the Halloween patch didn’t do much to dissuade the current one, therefore it is still the same story.

“However, in a capture and hold, bunkers and roamers are going to be powerful no matter what, because that’s’ the core design of the game type. It has little or nothing to do with power of bunkers in sPvP”

Of course there will be bunkers and roamers. I never asked for a pure burst vs burst game. But the power of bunkers negatively affects the outcome of the match when they are so very effective at what they do.

It’s amazing how many people say, “Well, you shouldn’t 1 v 1 a bunker, noob!”

Ok… how is this alright in a competitive game type where, out of 5 people, we need at least 2 to kill one of our opponents?

“Teamwork, communication, etc, noob!”

Great, we have all that. That still doesn’t change the fact that it takes at least 2 of us vs a bunker way too long to capture 1 node out of the 3 .

I don’t know how many times I heard in TS or Vent, “Just kitten that node, that bunker’s got it, it’ll take too long. Let’s try the other 2.”

Not ok in a competitive game.

And you sound like all the Thieves did about the Backstab bullkitten. “BS’s fine, l2p, blah, blah, blah”

the issue with the current meta game is that encourages players to go full damage, full defence or full support

this is no better then a trinity system
if the meta and the pvp game in general is to be improved, the concept of dedicated bunker builds/dps builds/ect should be done away with, players should be brought for their skill and not the role/class they play and should be able to coordinate a mix of offense and defense with their partners

having dedicated builds with dedicated roles will always be an issue, because one class is always superior to the other at that chosen role and no amount of skill will overcome that

ive played this game since launch, as a bunker guardian and a retaliation guardian I rarely win 1v1. Id say my win rate is about 10-15%
especially against thieves and mezmers

necros i have NO CHANCE against, only few times I have beaten a necro are the ones who gave me every debuff and I turned that into boons and beat him down with my 2hander with a few lucky crits. other than that, my god necros kill me, thieves kite me around and vanish… steay stealth drop caltrops that are unclensable and you cant catch them but cant stay on your node… they never reappear
i dont know what guardians you guys are playing against perhaps the ones using an exploit, but a legit played guardian is currently not winning against thieves and mezmers and NO CHANCE against necros.

please someone … anyone post a video of them going 1v1 or 2v1 with a bunker and losing to him…. PLEASE

Only had problems with bunkers who clearly outplayed me

- a mesmer, who is not using moa like duh

I made an entire topic about how pairing up one themed balanced class with one high burst class takes out bunkers, often in less than 10 seconds (like pairing your balanced CC spec guy with your thief, or warrior, or ranger) but that post gets no responses, because it’s easier to say bunkers are unbeatable

Bunkers can’t do what they do without use of their skills… all all it takes is about 3-4 interrupts, stuns, knockdowns, while the 2nd guy goes through his high end damage rotation untethered and the bunker suddenly goes down like anyone else.

But hardly anyone runs a balanced spec or a CC spec, because they assume they are useless, so you usually end up with 2 damage only players wailing away on a bunker and then, yeah, they can be pretty hard to take down. The new part of the holy trinity has “control” in there for a reason, and very few new players run one, because they either want to live forever, or get the most killing blows, in a game about point control.

@aydenunited

So, in your opinion, you should be using 2 people to take 1 bunker down? 1 to CC him, and the other to DPS him? Why does this sound like a PvE boss or something?

Have you ever seen 2 Bunkers on a mid point? I have. A lot. Down 1, the other rezzes him while having Stability on. Back to square 1. So now it becomes a matter of 4 v 2.

Do you see the problem here?

Bunker engineers are easily soloable if you’re playing your profession properly. Their self-healing and stability pales in comparison to Elementalist and Guardians, which are much more difficult to solo.

Should they ever put DRs on knockdowns, knockbacks, stuns, snares, immobilizes.. that will help kill the bunker (especially Engineer bunkers).

aydenunited.5729:

I made an entire topic about how pairing up one themed balanced class with one high burst class takes out bunkers, often in less than 10 seconds (like pairing your balanced CC spec guy with your thief, or warrior, or ranger) but that post gets no responses, because it’s easier to say bunkers are unbeatable

I think 10 seconds is pretty heavy hyperbole tbh – less than 10 seconds even more so.

Before you can actually control a bunker long enough to drop him, you need him to blow all his stun breaks, stabilities, and other immunities of which most decent bunkers will have several (more or less depending on class). I mean, when fighting a triple cantrip ele you’re gonna have to burn through mist form, cleansing fire, armor of earth, and the earth’s embrace proc before you can really even think about any kind of serious control (not to mention vigor and sigil of energy) – and that’s gonna take a little while usually.

I’m not disagreeing with you in general – bunkers go down under focused assault fast enough, but any decent player with a proper build will tend to last longer than that. Exceptions apply from class to class.

Merciless.5349:

Have you ever seen 2 Bunkers on a mid point? I have. A lot. Down 1, the other rezzes him while having Stability on. Back to square 1. So now it becomes a matter of 4 v 2.

If you’re smashing your head against a point being held by two bunkers then you and your team should probably rethink your strats and come up with better mid-game splits.

Maybe go watch some streams or something? idk. Many teams do what you claim is impossible (or next to impossible) to do.

@Noctred

I was speaking in relation to his strategy of 1 DPS and 1 CC. But thank you for the pointers either way.

And I never said anything was impossible. But nice try trying to discredit what I’m saying.

I’m not trying to discredit anything, I’m just not sure what your point is.

Yeah, if you want to drop a bunker quickly before he gets support, you’re going to need more than one player. That’s a given. So what? Send a bunker buster +1 to deal with him and then hit another point simultaneously. Put your roamers to work. Pressure the other team in multiple areas so they’re forced to make choices.

Quote from you -

“I have seen great bunkers survive 3 v 1’s, but I put that blame on myself and my 2 other team mates (who are usually pugs) because we don’t really coordinate our attacks; we still treat it as 1 v 1.”

I don’t understand what you expect if this is how you play. Your teammates are usually pugs and you don’t really coordinate? I think you should take a hard look at improving your own play (both individual and team) before calling out external factors – you’d be surprised at what you can overcome and things that seemed over the top before will suddenly be… not so much.

Great another merciless thread.

You keep kittening about having to take 2 people to kill 1 bunker insisting that you should be able to solo him before his teammates arrive… teammates… where are yours. This is team pvp not 5 1v1s for the last time less QQ more PewPew.

You play a necro just run up with a bursty type teammate apply your conditions have burst burst watch as bunker crumbles.

Colton.9460:

@ Fenixz “Anet have stated over and over again that it is intended for dps/brust oriented builds to destroy full all in tanking builds so the game can be DYNAMIC and interesting from the 1-st to the last secound.”

Yes they have said it repeatedly, each time they do it is dumb. It has been brought up several times if full on burst counters full on bunker then by proxy burst counters condition( it can kill them before they stack conditions), if the glass cannon burst can then counter other burst because of their low defenses and health then all that is left in the meta is burst.

If a bunker cannot stalemate a dps 1v1 then they are pointless, why would you have one if a thief can come burst them down in a few seconds?

No, every time THIS is repeated it is dumb.

This is how it’s SUPPOSED to work:

- Burst/glass cannon builds counter bunker builds by forcing them to either retreat from the point or die faster than any other build can manage
- Bunker builds can hold points longer than any other build, but sacrifice killing power to do so – they should be unable to kill even glass cannon builds (in fact, they shouldn’t be able to kill anybody)
- Balanced builds counter burst builds by having the damage mitigation to survive their burst while dishing out enough damage to defeat their squishy butts
- Condition builds are supposed to support any of the above by dramatically reducing the combat efficiency of the enemy while dealing decent sustained DPS, they are NOT supposed to be 1v1

Right now, thief mobility + burst effectively counters every other glass cannon build and thus makes them irrelevant, while bunker builds are so tough that even the highest DPS builds in the entire game can’t unseat them in a reasonable amount of time. This has resulted in the incredibly stale and boring meta we are now stuck with until AN does something drastic.

And that’s how it is.

Look, we can go back and forth all day on whether every class should be able to 1 v 1 everybody else or if it’s ok in it’s current state where for some builds you need more than 1 person to defeat them (my opinion is that this is wrong).

But as it stands currently, the fact of the matter is that bunker builds (certain ones) are very, very effective in what they do. I am not so sure that this is intended, but I do not know.

I can only speak from personal experience of x amount of Tournament games that, more than 90% of the time, the team that had more bunkers won.

I’ll take the 50% more damage on backstab compared to making that stupid combo do 75% more damage. At least with the 50% more Dmg on backstab if they screwed up they had to wait to try it again.

Math doesn’t work like that. Percents are not additive.

Actually, they buffed bunker ele making healing boost affect Cone of Cold more. =p

Most bunker Ele’s run staff anyway to blast finish their water fields.

Bunkers cannot bunker without their utilities and moves… control specs can nullify this, but granted, a control spec by itself is doing damage over time at best. However, if you pair a control spec with any DPS spec, the bunker will drop as quickly as any other class 1v1.

But so VERY few people run control specs, it’s either all attack or all defense.

Guardians that run stability can nullify CC, but are weak to conditions. Meditation Guardians can erase conditions on them constantly but are weak to CC. You can just about tell in the first few seconds what you’re dealing with and react accordingly.

And even so, if you run a Control Spec, and get the drop on them before they pop stability, you can keep them in a place where they never get to use it. My Control/Roamer engineer spec I’m running has a total of 6 immediate knockbacks available for use right from the start of the fight, and of which would knock a bunker off the point, and with 2 immobilizes also available right off the start, can keep them there. Once the node is “contested”, you can watch the bunker flail his wet noodle to try and take it back. At this point it will usually come down to whoever has help show up first, wins.

So to me, the 2v1 to take down bunkers seems adequate. Even as a non-bunker spec, my fights tend to last a while, but since most of you are not running balanced specs, support specs, or control specs, you’ll never notice it, because it’s either flimsy heavy burst or all bunker, and from that perspective, no wonder bunkers are giving you all such a hard time.

Stop that.

There is no justification for any build that requires two people to counter.

There is no justification. Please stop trying.

I can’t even imagine what goes on in your heads to justify “oh, hey, two people have to fight ONE GUY to counter him, that’s fair and balanced!”

Carrioncrow.6872:

But it wasn’t a thief nerf, and honestly it should be. Making assassins signet go from 150% dmg 1 attack to making the next 5 attacks do 15% more damage is a buff.

Mug – 15% more dmg
CnD – 15% more dmg
Backstab – 15% more dmg
Heartseeker – 15% more dmg
Heartseeker – 15% more dmg

Your dead.

If anything it has gotten worse to play against thieves.

I’ll take the 50% more damage on backstab compared to making that stupid combo do 75% more damage. At least with the 50% more Dmg on backstab if they screwed up they had to wait to try it again.

someone is terrible at math.,.,.,. and english.

first off, “You’RE dead”. /petpeeveforpeoplewhocantspell

second off, the combo doesnt do 75% more damage. it does 15% more damage. i feel like you dont know how percentages work.

also, this makes it so that the combo does overall LESS damage. what you SHOULD be complaining about is that this signet now just makes noobs better at HS spam.

here is some math to illustrate my point, in case youre still trying to add 15% 5 times.,.,.,

these are imaginary numbers simply used for explanation, im aware actual damage is higher than this:
Mug: 100 damage + 15% = 115 damage
CnD: 200 damage + 15% = 230 damage
BS: 500 damage + 15% = 575 damage
HS: 100 damage + 15% = 115 damage
HS: 100 damage + 15% = 115 damage

grand total of damage w/o AS = 1000 damage
grand total of damage w/ AS = 1150 damage
increase over 5 hit total = 150 damage, or, 15% NOT 75%

now lets apply actual numbers (all crits, for sake of argument, and rounded to what i typically see):
Mug: 4k, with old signet, 4k, with new signet, 4600 damage
CnD: 6k, with old signet, 6k, with new signet, 6900 damage
BS: 10k, with old signet, 15k, with new signet, 11500 damage
HS x 2: 6k, with old signet, 6k, with new signet, 6900 damage

grand total of damage w/o signet = 26k damage
grand total of damage w/ old signet = 31k damage
grand total of damage w/ new signet = 29.9k damage

is it a nerf in damage? yes. however, the problem i foresee, is that it also nerfs the skill cap, so now there will be a whole new problem of AS + HS spam being the new hot topic. plus, bad thieves that couldnt land the BS before, now just get the 15% bonus to S+Cnd+HS spam, no BS or positioning required.

feel free to link this in all future “OMG, THEY NERFED SIGNET, LEAVE THIEVES ALONE NOW!” threads.

i gave that b**** maths.
b****** love maths.

Zyrusticae.7245:

Stop that.

There is no justification for any build that requires two people to counter.

There is no justification. Please stop trying.

I can’t even imagine what goes on in your heads to justify “oh, hey, two people have to fight ONE GUY to counter him, that’s fair and balanced!”

It’s not really that simple.

Bunkers are ultimately killable 1v1, especially if you have steady access to poison. The reason you typically need 2+ people is because you want to take them down before they get support.

There’s a difference.

Zyrusticae.7245:

Stop that.

There is no justification for any build that requires two people to counter.

There is no justification. Please stop trying.

I can’t even imagine what goes on in your heads to justify “oh, hey, two people have to fight ONE GUY to counter him, that’s fair and balanced!”

It’s not that they are unkillable, it’s just not a good use of time. There are occasions where my team would leave the fight with the bunker to be finished 1v1 because they were needed elsewhere, or they knew the other team couldn’t afford to come help the bunker at that time.

On top of that, any straight bunker spec can’t really kill you, either, unless you play complete glass.

On a further note, your attitude is terrible. Just because people disagree with you and struggle less at dealing with these things doesn’t mean anyone is right or wrong. To me, I see a team of all tanks being successful unbalanced, or a team of all burst being unbalanced, but when you have the typical setup of 2 bunker 2 burst 1 roamer, that to me speaks of balance, but never would I tell you “I can’t imagine what you’re thinking!” as that’s a very condescending, immature, and dramatic way of looking at something that really should only need small tweaks to correct, and a lot of those are just bug issues.

Cheyenne.1085:

The only bunker you can’t solo is guardian.

As a bunker engineer there’s really nothing I can do vs necros, rangers, and thieves who use condition damage properly so I really don’t get why people complain about bunker builds when only 1 prof does it effectively.

Bunker guardian is very soloable with the right build.. It will of course take longer than killing a glass cannon but they are very beatable.

Noctred.6732:

Zyrusticae.7245:

Stop that.

There is no justification for any build that requires two people to counter.

There is no justification. Please stop trying.

I can’t even imagine what goes on in your heads to justify “oh, hey, two people have to fight ONE GUY to counter him, that’s fair and balanced!”

It’s not really that simple.

Bunkers are ultimately killable 1v1, especially if you have steady access to poison. The reason you typically need 2+ people is because you want to take them down before they get support.

There’s a difference.

No, not really. They’re still too strong to take down in a reasonable amount of time 1v1, and any situation that demands a second player just to offset one is obviously far from fair or balanced in any way.

The 3 bunker meta is annoying, but it loses to a team of high mobility…or a necro :P

this thread is like “a new bmw is out my dad is still driving a older one nerf his” i have Oblitirated many bunkers using a balanced build.

1 v 1, your chances are very slim to none in defeating a bunker.

i don’t recognize what you describe here with its impossible to kill them.

Zyrusticae.7245:

Noctred.6732:

Zyrusticae.7245:

Stop that.

There is no justification for any build that requires two people to counter.

There is no justification. Please stop trying.

I can’t even imagine what goes on in your heads to justify “oh, hey, two people have to fight ONE GUY to counter him, that’s fair and balanced!”

It’s not really that simple.

Bunkers are ultimately killable 1v1, especially if you have steady access to poison. The reason you typically need 2+ people is because you want to take them down before they get support.

There’s a difference.

No, not really. They’re still too strong to take down in a reasonable amount of time 1v1, and any situation that demands a second player just to offset one is obviously far from fair or balanced in any way.

If this was team deathmatch, that might be true. But it’s a point based game, and bunkers:

1) Can’t take down creatures in any reasonable time.
2) Can’t get many incremental 5-10 point kills.
3) Are useless in mid if the trebuchet is up.
4) Take just as long to kill you as it takes to kill them.

You can literally knock any bunker off the point (knockback, fear, etc.) and contest the point in a matter of seconds, after that, you’re basically on even ground. You can take all the time you need because it’s a neutral point then, and whoever… you or the bunker… that gets help first will most likely take the point. That’s where the team play that Anet is pushing for comes in.

Merciless.5349:

@aydenunited

So, in your opinion, you should be using 2 people to take 1 bunker down? 1 to CC him, and the other to DPS him? Why does this sound like a PvE boss or something?

Have you ever seen 2 Bunkers on a mid point? I have. A lot. Down 1, the other rezzes him while having Stability on. Back to square 1. So now it becomes a matter of 4 v 2.

Do you see the problem here?

Well if a player sacrifices alot his damage to be a defensive build, aka a bunker, what would be the point if his defensive build can’t even survive very long vs 1 person? The game would turn into nothing but glass cannons. Logically in order for defensive builds to be balanced it should take more than 1 person to kill them quickly. Either that or it should take a very long time for the bunker to go down in a 1 vs 1.

Do you see the problem with your post here?

Zyrusticae.7245:

No, not really. They’re still too strong to take down in a reasonable amount of time 1v1, and any situation that demands a second player just to offset one is obviously far from fair or balanced in any way.

So run a bunker buster like a nade/bomb engi or whatever and send him to deal with the enemy bunker. While he’s doing that, send people to contest other nodes. Killing the bunker quickly isn’t absolutely necessary tbh – applying enough pressure so that the enemy has to choose between a bad outcome or a worse one is enough.

Everything has a counter.

edit:

Or like aydenunited said just wait out their stabilities and then knock them off the point for a few seconds. Once the node is neutralized, they can’t do kitten.

That’s not my experience at all.

As an example, fighting a bunker elementalist as a ranged glass warrior is basically impossible as they simply out-heal everything I can throw at them. And that’s with the absolute highest damage possible with a ranged warrior.

Plus no poison (none at all, across the entire class), so that’s obviously not an option.

So… what’s the issue here? Does the elementalist simply have too much regen, does my warrior not have enough damage, does the warrior need an overhaul to get more anti-healing conditions, am I just not playing well enough (lol, gimme a break, there’s one interrupt/kb on rifle and that’s it)? Don’t even try to suggest I switch to a melee build, that is just hilariously bad against any kiting build.

At this point, it doesn’t really matter. I hate the way the PvP plays right now and I will not go back to it unless something changes dramatically. I try so hard to enjoy it and I just can’t, not with the current pace and certainly not with the current balance of power between classes and builds.

Parakeet.6083:

Well if a player sacrifices all his damage to be a defencive build, aka a bunker, what would be the point if his defencive build can’t even survive vs 1 person? The game would turn into nothing but glass cannons. Logicaly in order for defencive builds to be balanced it should take more than 1 person to kill them. Either that or it should take a very long time for the bunker to go down in a 1vs1.

Do you see the problem with your post here?

For the last time, bunkers only need to be able to hold a point longer than anyone else. They do NOT need to be able to hold it indefinitely until help arrives and they do NOT have to be able to win every 1v1 they get into (that would be the very definition of unbalanced).

Zyrusticae.7245:

So… what’s the issue here?

The issue is that warriors are currently among the worst duelists in the game for a variety of reasons and don’t perform well against bunkers regardless of build.

The solution is simple – don’t send a warrior to 1v1 a bunker.

Even though I don’t think you’re really wanting advice, Zyr, I’ll try again to actually help despite that I think this game will never really be for you.

Try a build that incorporates a hammer or mace… look up a few builds… you’ll find that making a balanced Warrior spec with more CC will actually end up doing more damage than a burst spec that has no way to nullify all the bunkers defenses. You can still keep another weapon of your choice as your second set if you really want to at first just to work it in gradually.

Zyrusticae.7245:

Once agian I will explain what burst dps is, it is a dps that does damage in a very large all out attack. If they can do a big enough attack to destroy a bunker with thier high defenses then the balance build is getting destroyed. This is why there are no balanced builds at the moment, they are sub par at each specialized role. Also, why you would relegate every condition build to be a helper that must have someone with them, who in your opinion should just make certain fights easier, this ignores that this makes it better to run full dps.

Currently bringing a good condition player is necessary to counter a good bunker, change it to what you suggest and all you need is burst dps. But if you cant see how making burst effective enough to destroy all out bunkers means they will destroy balanced and condition builds, thus leading to a burst arms race then I will stop replying to you. I am just banging my head against a brick wall of “I want it dead now, nef plox”