Guild Wars 2

…only to have a thief on the opposing team run in, use heartseeker one time and get the 25 points.

Please fix this awful game.

kitten happens.. didnt realise it was entirely last hit though.

It is a designed mechanic. I personally don’t like it. A thief shortbows his close enough then uses Shadow Refuge to get insane stealth time. Then waits for boss to get close, then boom. 1 button, 25 points. It’s straight up cheese and I don’t care for it. But it is here to stay. It’s an intentional design choice they made.

Watch your back. Problem solved.

Lol it’s called kill stealing and it’s a tournament mechanic.

I just got outplayed too please nerf everything about everything

JonathanSharp.7094:

Ya….when we designed this, we were thinking that it’s very important to keep “tabs” on the opposing team when you go for an NPC kill on Forest. You want to have 1 “killer” on your team who finishes the NPC while the other people on your team stun/knockback/daze/blind/immobilize/chill/knockdown opponents to keep them from getting the last hit and winning the buff.

I think the idea in theory is great, the only problem is that a thief can go undetected and then stealth/steal/heartseaker in without any knowledge of his whereabouts. So, all of those strategies, imo, are moot for it.

the idea is great , no complain.

Its honestly a bit infuriating to see designers can find the time to post on things like this (not to be rude, but svanir’s always been like this, its nothing new. It even says “awards on last hit” when you highlight the bosses) when the community has some pretty pressing questions concerning the latest patch which are being ignored.

If you do manage to find time (this is a sincere request, not sarcasm), please check this out
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/We-would-like-answers-Please/first#post756749
(yes, I am the author of this post)

While we’re on the subject of injecting personal opinions in here, I’d like to see the other classes made to require a proportional amount of effort for the reward/results they achieve. That my main is an Elementalist has absolutely nothing (read everything) to do with the above statement. ;-p

In terms of the Svanir issue, how far can the thief travel in 11 seconds? (discounting 4 for being in Shadow Refuge to stack it) Svanir has only the large frontal cave to get at him I believe, but the Chieftan has breaks in the Stonehenge. Is the team supposed to cover all those breaks to stop the thief, or does this asymmetry not matter?

Edit: Hmm, ranger traps probably would cover enough area but the trick would be getting the Chieftan in a corner to not trigger the traps.

I guess you guys have never played Dota/Hon? Roshan/Kongor token steal is pretty common there, same concept.

JonathanSharp.7094:

felivear.1536:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Ya….when we designed this, we were thinking that it’s very important to keep “tabs” on the opposing team when you go for an NPC kill on Forest. You want to have 1 “killer” on your team who finishes the NPC while the other people on your team stun/knockback/daze/blind/immobilize/chill/knockdown opponents to keep them from getting the last hit and winning the buff.

I think the idea in theory is great, the only problem is that a thief can go undetected and then stealth/steal/heartseaker in without any knowledge of his whereabouts. So, all of those strategies, imo, are moot for it.

Keep in mind that Thieves can’t just stealth through a trap, or a necro well, or a necro mark, or a Guardian bubble, etc. Thieves should be all about stealth and landing the perfect blow at the perfect time, but I think organized teams have found a LOT of ways to deal with them.

In pub games this is obviously harder to do than in an organized game, so I totally agree with you there.

You heard it here first. Damage from wells and traps breaks stealth…oh wait.

It’s an familiar and usually fun mechanic. The only downside is that balanced or defensive builds shouldn’t ever try to attack the npc solo, if there’s a thief in the opposing team. (Backstab does as much damage than my bunker engineer can inflict in 5-6 seconds, so unless I can chain cc for that long I have no business attempting to solo the npc. It just won’t work.) Also, newer players should usually not engage the npc alone.

It’s fun at the start, when there’s usually 2-3 players trying to hold off that one thief from landing the perfect blow, but after that, it does reward sitting and punish action for some players. Even so, it’s a working mechanic and worth leaving in the game. The devs have other concerns right now.

Pretty sure top teams don’t even both with the boss. The time it takes wastes resources, the points are far more important. Even if the other team gets all boss kills, it won’t determine the game.

Plague Bound.8674:

Pretty sure top teams don’t even both with the boss. The time it takes wastes resources, the points are far more important. Even if the other team gets all boss kills, it won’t determine the game.

They will always ignore the boss at start. After wiping the opposing at the keep, they’ll have time to send a roamer to grab the npc.

JonathanSharp.7094:

felivear.1536:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Ya….when we designed this, we were thinking that it’s very important to keep “tabs” on the opposing team when you go for an NPC kill on Forest. You want to have 1 “killer” on your team who finishes the NPC while the other people on your team stun/knockback/daze/blind/immobilize/chill/knockdown opponents to keep them from getting the last hit and winning the buff.

I think the idea in theory is great, the only problem is that a thief can go undetected and then stealth/steal/heartseaker in without any knowledge of his whereabouts. So, all of those strategies, imo, are moot for it.

Keep in mind that Thieves can’t just stealth through a trap, or a necro well, or a necro mark, or a Guardian bubble, etc. Thieves should be all about stealth and landing the perfect blow at the perfect time, but I think organized teams have found a LOT of ways to deal with them.

In pub games this is obviously harder to do than in an organized game, so I totally agree with you there.

Yea.. in organized games we basically ignore the NPCS till we have trully advantage on battelfield like when you send 3 people on respawn.. thats a good time and with portal mesmer of course..
otherwise it doesnt make any sense to start with mob as its sooo.. easy to steal it..

Yeah I lay down marks to stop the kill steal tactic, thiefs can stealth past them sure they might trigger them but they are still stealthed when they trigger it. Is that a bug? Is the design intention that traps/marks should break stealth? Other games have stealth break on damage. Have to say the comment confuses me a bit considering marks and traps do not break stealth.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Ya….when we designed this, we were thinking that it’s very important to keep “tabs” on the opposing team when you go for an NPC kill on Forest. You want to have 1 “killer” on your team who finishes the NPC while the other people on your team stun/knockback/daze/blind/immobilize/chill/knockdown opponents to keep them from getting the last hit and winning the buff.

Way to go! Don’t cater to the demand of “kitten, this is so hard. I actually have to pay attention and use my brain”! Keep skill in the game.

JonathanSharp.7094:

felivear.1536:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Ya….when we designed this, we were thinking that it’s very important to keep “tabs” on the opposing team when you go for an NPC kill on Forest. You want to have 1 “killer” on your team who finishes the NPC while the other people on your team stun/knockback/daze/blind/immobilize/chill/knockdown opponents to keep them from getting the last hit and winning the buff.

I think the idea in theory is great, the only problem is that a thief can go undetected and then stealth/steal/heartseaker in without any knowledge of his whereabouts. So, all of those strategies, imo, are moot for it.

Keep in mind that Thieves can’t just stealth through a trap, or a necro well, or a necro mark, or a Guardian bubble, etc. Thieves should be all about stealth and landing the perfect blow at the perfect time, but I think organized teams have found a LOT of ways to deal with them.

In pub games this is obviously harder to do than in an organized game, so I totally agree with you there.

they kinda can with CnD+Steal+Backstab burst :p

Shar.3402:

JonathanSharp.7094:

felivear.1536:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Ya….when we designed this, we were thinking that it’s very important to keep “tabs” on the opposing team when you go for an NPC kill on Forest. You want to have 1 “killer” on your team who finishes the NPC while the other people on your team stun/knockback/daze/blind/immobilize/chill/knockdown opponents to keep them from getting the last hit and winning the buff.

I think the idea in theory is great, the only problem is that a thief can go undetected and then stealth/steal/heartseaker in without any knowledge of his whereabouts. So, all of those strategies, imo, are moot for it.

Keep in mind that Thieves can’t just stealth through a trap, or a necro well, or a necro mark, or a Guardian bubble, etc. Thieves should be all about stealth and landing the perfect blow at the perfect time, but I think organized teams have found a LOT of ways to deal with them.

In pub games this is obviously harder to do than in an organized game, so I totally agree with you there.

they kinda can with CnD+Steal+Backstab burst :p

From my point of view (paid tournaments) you kind of don’t go for the creatures at the start.. My team don’t try to steal theirs, and rarely can go for ours. You need your five members to focus on the three points.
Then when it all have settled down you can try to steal/take creatures for that few extra points. But then it’s more about going in force so you can kill it fast and safe or just picking the right moment to kill him, so you get him uninterrupted.

Gonna be a bit harsh here to the OP, but instead of coming to the forums QQ:ing about it, why not brain storm around how this can be stopped and then adapt?

Cheyenne.1085:

…only to have a thief on the opposing team run in, use heartseeker one time and get the 25 points.

Please fix this awful game.

If you target svanir (Or chief) you can clearly read that he gives points on the LAST hit…there’s nothing to fix, it’s an intended mechanic…and it forces people not to rush bosses like mindless chickens but also to watch their backs, nothing wrong imo.

Xom.9264:

Yeah I lay down marks to stop the kill steal tactic, thiefs can stealth past them sure they might trigger them but they are still stealthed when they trigger it. Is that a bug? Is the design intention that traps/marks should break stealth? Other games have stealth break on damage. Have to say the comment confuses me a bit considering marks and traps do not break stealth.

Only if the thief/mesmer deals damage stealth breaks…

Too bad you cannot see the professions people play in the forums, would be very interesting in threads like this.

Wow I’m impressed to see such an awful mechanic with an awful explanation. Another proof that devs don’t play the game. OP mentions HS, but the problem is burst. Wheter you see it or not doesn’t matter, a thief can do a CnD, Steal, Backstab and HS combo that will destroy the NPC.

Oh and by the way that’s the combo people have been complaining about for weeks and that didn’t get fixed.

Edited : You know what forget this forest thing and my Thief comment, please concentrate on the important stuff like a LADDER and making people play your empty pvp mr. Sharp TY.

, a thief can do a CnD, Steal, Backstab and HS combo that will destroy the NPC.
——————————-

So watch your back, i fail to see (or notice while playing) any problem with this mechanic, it gives another dimension to the fight which really in my opinion shouldnt be complained about.

you can always halt DPS and wait for the stealth to expire before you continue if/when you notice him.

.

but yes please focus on a ladder system.

Kill stealing is directly a part of the competitive scene. It’s there in lots of MOBAs.

Or would you like it so you can’t steal the mob once tagged? Make it like PVE? Come on.

I don’t believe ks’ing the npc’s is the problem. It just goes back to you know what…stealth! Playing scout for a roamer and locking them down adds a dimension to the npc rush, but not being able to see and react because someone using shadow refuge and steal+c/d and BS is a bit meh.

Not to mention, you can play it perfectly and kill them and they could potentially get the steal from downed state…

Can stealthed thiefs see other stealthed thiefs? If not, wouldn’t that make sense somehow, at least as a signet?

I just don’t understand ArenaNet’s rationale for this. It’s so gimmicky. Especially when Quickness is involved.

You think it opens more strategy to watch for enemy players when killing the enemy bosses? The same can be said if boss kills were determined by whatever team dealt the most damage.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Thieves should be all about stealth and landing the perfect blow at the perfect time, but I think organized teams have found a LOT of ways to deal with them.

Story of GW2 PvP,right there.

JonathanSharp.7094:

felivear.1536:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Ya….when we designed this, we were thinking that it’s very important to keep “tabs” on the opposing team when you go for an NPC kill on Forest. You want to have 1 “killer” on your team who finishes the NPC while the other people on your team stun/knockback/daze/blind/immobilize/chill/knockdown opponents to keep them from getting the last hit and winning the buff.

I think the idea in theory is great, the only problem is that a thief can go undetected and then stealth/steal/heartseaker in without any knowledge of his whereabouts. So, all of those strategies, imo, are moot for it.

Keep in mind that Thieves can’t just stealth through a trap, or a necro well, or a necro mark, or a Guardian bubble, etc. Thieves should be all about stealth and landing the perfect blow at the perfect time, but I think organized teams have found a LOT of ways to deal with them.

In pub games this is obviously harder to do than in an organized game, so I totally agree with you there.

In all fairness, the timing is a load of BS.
A thief has more than one stealth and all the spells you mentioned don’t linger in the world for long. In fact most of what you mentioned last for less time than a thief Stealth and are on a long cooldown, meaning the enemy team is the one that has to get their timing perfect, not the thief.
To add insult to injury, you need to know when the thief is coming to counter it, but currently due to the way stealth functions and the poor rendering engine the thief would get past you without you even knowing it was in the area.
All skill and timing goes out the window when a thief can stack stealth for 30 seconds (a friend who plays a thief has found a way to do this, although it does leave him considerably weaker than normal) and then sneak past everything.
Call it a fair mechanic all you want, but keep in mind that we were promised no cheap moves. And I’d call this a cheap move.

I’ve never seen a thief stacking massive stealth to ninja the boss. IIRC stealth is caped at 15s anyway. It also not like you have to fight the boss on the spot and it’s not like you have to fight it once you know there is an enemy around. There are teams that almost never lose a boss. There might be a reason for it which is not “lulz they neva play against theifs”.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Ya….when we designed this, we were thinking that it’s very important to keep “tabs” on the opposing team when you go for an NPC kill on Forest. You want to have 1 “killer” on your team who finishes the NPC while the other people on your team stun/knockback/daze/blind/immobilize/chill/knockdown opponents to keep them from getting the last hit and winning the buff.

Keep tabs on a potential 15 seconds of stealth and the possibilty of shadowstepping over traps, players and whatnot without breaking that? Please.

I don’t enjoy this mechanic. It feels way too RNG. When both parties fight for a mob it will usually end up to one team randomly rather than requiring skill to get it (assuming both parties attempt to finish him with a burst ability). It is also a quite imbalanced mechanic considering not every profession has the same burst capability (once again an example of balanced builds being less effective at something).

I’d prefer if it went to the team with the most damage so that if you get to the mob and see that the opponents have brought him down to less than 50% life you know you have to defend the mob, finish off the opponents who have registered damage on him, and only then you can proceed with the kill and win the buff/points.

Its good to see that Anet isn’t bending to the will of the noobs. It is designed this way for a reason, to make you think before you engage on it that someone could be there to steal it. It is a risk vs reward system, and I have had MANY games in paids come down to the final boss kill, and it is an amazing feeling when you achieve it, but an even better one when you realize how close that game was and that one mechanic it came down to.

It is very easy to keep tabs on 5 people in tournaments, because you are all on voice comms. If you are a top team you are doing this, if you say you “can’t” do this, then you are obviously not a top player or are talking about 8v8s which is laughable.

The game is balanced around 5v5s, and more-so balanced around great communication and teamwork. Take a look in the mirror sometime, was it your lack of communication that allowed the thief to get there, or a teammates?

TLDR; quit being noobs, the mechanic was designed that way and should be this way. The game is about communication, if you can’t keep tabs on 5 people then you shouldn’t be trying to be a competitive team or you have some fundamentals to work on.

felivear.1536:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Ya….when we designed this, we were thinking that it’s very important to keep “tabs” on the opposing team when you go for an NPC kill on Forest. You want to have 1 “killer” on your team who finishes the NPC while the other people on your team stun/knockback/daze/blind/immobilize/chill/knockdown opponents to keep them from getting the last hit and winning the buff.

I think the idea in theory is great, the only problem is that a thief can go undetected and then stealth/steal/heartseaker in without any knowledge of his whereabouts. So, all of those strategies, imo, are moot for it.

Nah, i played a lot with my thief and i noticed that against better teams, it became a lot harder to get the steal. Some drop marks (fear), some will check for enemies in advance and will try to snare me etc. But of course, long stealth with the Heartseeker + steal combo will mostly get me the kill. Any class with good burst can do it tho.

I like it. It adds more depth to the map.

That said, we don’t really send a stealer anymore at the start of a battle. Our current strat is to sent 4 to their point and basically own it. Then we take their boss out without any enemies nearby. So in a way, we still steal it but not in a sneaky way haha.

I think I understand the issue after reading through the thread again:

The developer rightly points out that organized teams have found a lot of ways to deal with the problem. 100% correct.

It is also 100% correct that the entire mechanic is ignored by organized teams.

In other words, the mechanic is only enjoyed by casual players, but casual players aren’t good enough to enjoy the mechanic.

Stealth…

Should simply never have been in this game at all.

Stealth makes everything more broken. It as ALWAYS made EVERYTHING more frustrating and NEVER had ANY sort of REAL COUNTER to it. No matter what you say.
Invisibility will never make PvP good.
Oh you can stop a thief from stealing by outplaying it… NOT. If the thief can’t even take the last hit it’s either because you had some massive DPS going on the boss and he miss the last hit or because he’s terrible.
Nothing easier then to stealth and get to the boss for the last hit. No matter what you can put between the thief and the boss. He can either walk around them, thru them or simply shoot thru it. Even Sanctuary from the guardian have near to no chance from stoping a thief to last hit the boss.
I like the idea of a boss there, it allows for any non-stealth profession to come and stun/root ennemies for the boss to eat. THAT is what I call being outplayed.
Last hitting is not outplaying, it’s simple luck or abusing a broken mechanism.
You can’t compare this to something like Baron in LoL. Because in LoL they made sure stealing the baron was being outplayed for real. From being too stupid to neutralize any wards giving vision of baron, from being too focused on the boss rather then jumping the ennemy attacking… from it having a massive healthpool and actually needing the full team to kill. In GW2, they can be soloed, they don’t take long to kill and ennemies can see them from very far.

Archaon.6245:

Xom.9264:

Yeah I lay down marks to stop the kill steal tactic, thiefs can stealth past them sure they might trigger them but they are still stealthed when they trigger it. Is that a bug? Is the design intention that traps/marks should break stealth? Other games have stealth break on damage. Have to say the comment confuses me a bit considering marks and traps do not break stealth.

Only if the thief/mesmer deals damage stealth breaks…

lol I know, I was joking when i asked if it was a bug. Marks will not stop a thief from getting the last hit wells really wont stop it they only last 5 seconds….

Thread is filled to the brim with whining players.
Here you go guys, a guide to forest map and how to not get your boss stolen:

1. send 1 out the side to scout for enemy incoming (carful shadow refuge)
2. if they are sending, disengage your boss and go kill them
3. profit

There are other ways as well, such as not going for your boss at all until you have some free time, which is pretty popular now.

This thread is hilarious.

So to stop a Thiefs multitude of mob stealing abilities we just need to lay down either a Guardian bubble or some Necro wells.

Let’s look at that shall we?

By Guardian bubble you clearly mean Sanctuary, the small dome that’s smaller than a regular capture point that lasts 6s on a 120s cooldown and can be traited to last a whopping 9s. Though, even if it lasted for 3 hours it still wouldn’t stop the Thief walking straight around it as it’s impossible to cover the front of Svanir’s cave and even if you could do that, Svanir deals so much damage you’d commit suicide by being in such a small place against him. (Lol @ the guy who said if you see a Thief just stop damage and wait for his stealth to drop, protip Svanir would rip you apart before the stealth ran out) He deals between 3 and 5k dps.

Necro Marks, and other AoEs, these will apparantly according to JSharp (game designer) bring a Thief out of stealth.

Do they?

No.

Only the Thief attacking will bring him out of stealth, so that doesn’t work either.

The Thief has access to 12s of stealth from refuge or 3s from blinding powder if we are ignoring CnD for now, and that’s untraited.

Even if AoEs did bring him out of stealth he has the Shortbow to jump right over them, or Shadowstep to jump right over them.

Or he could just use Steal to bypass it all and port right onto the mob, this can be traited to 1200 range and to stealth you again for 2s.

Or he could just wait and pull Svanir to himself from 1200 range, ripping him away from all your damage and defenses to secure the last hit.

There are no effective mechanics to stop a Thief stealing the NPC. A single Thief could bypass a whole team if he put his mind to it. There’s far too much room available to maneuver and the abilities listed by a game designer do NOT bring a Thief out of stealth.

Our team if we ever hear a thief is going to steal we just completly miss the boss and carry on to keep and our close cap. The thief just stands around with a sad face and moves on then whilst we have successfully taken two points and they are stable we’ll take the boss whilst it’s safe. If thief trys to take the boss anyway then we just stomp him and take the boss anyway

Infinitus.3712:

Our team if we ever hear a thief is going to steal we just completly miss the boss and carry on to keep and our close cap. The thief just stands around with a sad face and moves on then whilst we have successfully taken two points and they are stable we’ll take the boss whilst it’s safe. If thief trys to take the boss anyway then we just stomp him and take the boss anyway

This is what I was trying to say. Casual teams can’t defend it, and good teams avoid the mechanic completely.

Again, as many people have said, this is not the most pressing issue in PvP right now, but it’s food for thought…interesting design questions. Each map mechanic will certainly be different for different levels of players. I can see a “last hit” mechanic being fun for casuals, except casual thieves > casual everything else at it. It could also be fun for competitives, except point control > everything else for competitives.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Keep in mind that Thieves can’t just stealth through a trap, or a necro well, or a necro mark, or a Guardian bubble, etc. Thieves should be all about stealth and landing the perfect blow at the perfect time, but I think organized teams have found a LOT of ways to deal with them.

In pub games this is obviously harder to do than in an organized game, so I totally agree with you there.

well, it takes something like 2-3 seconds for the thieve to “break stealth” (just watch videos,u see them beat the kitten out of players abusing this “bug”), and if they pop elite, their are kinda useless since those minions suck in all the traps/wells :L

Lelouch.8452:

well, it takes something like 2-3 seconds for the thieve to “break stealth” (just watch videos,u see them beat the kitten out of players abusing this “bug”)

That was fixed

JonathanSharp.7094:

Keep in mind…

Looking from the outside (I don’t tPvP and don’t plan to), difficulty of keeping ninjas out is greater than difficulty of pulling off ninja.

That is, given opportunity to ninja, it is always correct decision to go after it.

Plus, killstealing is ages-old annoyance mechanic. No idea why Anet decided annoying players is somehow adds depth to gameplay. Why not add corpse runs and meditation with a spell book while you are at it?

think of it as svanir is just another node, but only its INSTANTLY cap-able. I personally find the last hit WAY more fun and exciting than kitten nerfed WHO DOES MORE DPS crap.

think of it as svanir is just another node, but only its INSTANTLY cap-able. I personally find the last hit WAY more fun and exciting than kitten nerfed WHO DOES MORE DPS crap.