Guild Wars 2

Terravos.4059:

a t s e.9614:

This is not a joke , it is the sad truth of pvp . AI based builds destroy pvp . I want to Q up for some player versus player matches but I end up fighting mobs instead. Not only its not fun but it is also incredibly overpowered.

Really, AI based builds destroy PvP?

So Animist/Bonedancers/Spiritmasters/Cabalist/Therugist/Enchanter/Minstrel/Sorceror destroyed DAOC’s PvP?

Do you know what people did in that game instead of whining about dying to pets? They killed the pets…

Well there was a time when they did whine… and that was on Animist, Since they could summon 50 Pets in one spot…yes 50….. and you’re whining about 5 or 6..

Everytime I see someone whining about pets in this game I can’t help but laugh… You guys would slit your wrist the first time you came across a Theurgist in DAOC.

And here I thought this were the GW2 forums….

Bring Skilled play mechanics into pvp not, Skill-less play like 5 pets and pressing auto attack

I’m not sure how anyone defends something so blatantly broken. Again we have a class that is enjoying too much damage, too much defense, and too much control – just like the Ele’s, Rangers, and Warriors that came before it.

Solutions:
- Pets/Minions/AI Entities/etc should scale with player stats
- Pets/Minions/AI Entities/etc should not contribute to AOE hit-cap
- Pets/Minions/AI Entities/etc should not break the tab targeting system (ANet actually fixed this but reverted it for the Nancy’s over in PvE – it would seem to me though that if skills can be split between PvE and PvP then target priority should be able to do the same, no?)

I love reading stuff like this. I played MM since the beginning and when I did and joined Tpvp and said “Hey, I’m MM” they LAUGHED at me and made fun of me and made comments like “have fun dying” and “way to be useless”. A year later, not much has changed, we got some minor buffs and then some minor nerfs and NOW everyone is complaining about it. Gotta love how popularity determines how OP something is. :P

It’s not the strength of MM, it’s the mindlessness of it. Having AI play the game for you is NOT conducive to stimulating PVP. Hiding behind minions while they block ranged attacks, running in circles while they do damage brings very little skill to the table and that’s what frustrates people. It’s not that the build is OP because it isn’t, it’s that any noob can pick up the build and be half way decent at it because they don’t actually have to PLAY the game. Run in circles, let minions do the playing for you.

It’s the same with Phantasm Mesmer and Spirit Ranger. Hambow warrior is mindless because the stupid amount of healing/regen means you don’t have to worry about making mistakes.

This game has catered to the dumb downed builds that require less and less input from the player. What’s sad is that all these people that like these builds are defending them.

AI controlled builds should NEVER be as strong as builds that require a person to actually think and react to combat.

The funny thing about this is in a moving pvp environment, its not that simple if you play one. Its senseless QQ because people have no clue how it works. Its an easy build to be “okay” with because it does damage if you don’t attack, but given its weaknesses (No cc breaks, lack of control of pets, terrain, you know stuff you have to deal with versus good players) MM requires a hell of a lot of skill to play correctly. For instance, each summon has a long cast time mid-fight, making it hard to get off versus good players and they are essential to even staying alive because without them you just simply die. They also have an ability tied to each. Then we have death shroud, 5 moves there and 2 weapon swaps. That puts MM at upward 26 abilities versus many classes 16-18 they have to use regularly. Plus we have to manage our Life force because without it we lose basically any defenses against stuns (doom and Life force absorbing damage).

What makes MM powerful isn’t the pets doing damage, that’s avoidable. What makes them powerful is the amount of CC they can do (BY PRESSING BUTTONS), allowing their pets to be useful, plus adding on Dagger/Axe damage, they can do decent damage themselves. If you die to an MM running circles you’re terrible, sorry to say. Minions do like 200-300 damage hits, and 4 of them require them to be in melee range, and can be snared. Phantasms can land hits as big kitten -6k, on top of stealth, Phantasmal defender, pseudo Healing Signet etc.

Is it a little cheap? Sure. I’d rather do 50% more damage and my pets do 50% less. That’d be great! Then I’d still be worth having around if moa’d or my pets die to the insane amount of (apparently skillful?) aoe spam and other garbage.

In other words. MM may be a little cheap, but any good one will tell you it’s not brainless/skill-less as it takes more button coordination than most set ups. Only people who have no clue what they’re talking about can say that it’s skill-less. The bigger problem is that the entire pvp system in GW2 does nothing but promotes cheesy playstyles because the only legit ones get pushed out of the meta because cheese and easy playing is better than having to jumping through hoops just to perform decently. This, on top of the fact that the game simply looks like spam anyways, it gives the false impression that the MM does nothing but spam.

And the last little tid-bit, if an MM is running circles a lot in a team fight its because they have 0 cc breaks or survivability when locked down, so yeah, they kinda have to run. But when they’re running in circles they’re doing 50% of the damage they could be and FAR less CC than they could be, all of which needs the necromancer to actually be doing their job for.

ronpierce.2760:

The funny thing about this is in a moving pvp environment, its not that simple if you play one. Its senseless QQ because people have no clue how it works. Its an easy build to be “okay” with because it does damage if you don’t attack, but given its weaknesses (No cc breaks, lack of control of pets, terrain, you know stuff you have to deal with versus good players) MM requires a hell of a lot of skill to play correctly. For instance, each summon has a long cast time mid-fight, making it hard to get off versus good players and they are essential to even staying alive because without them you just simply die. They also have an ability tied to each. Then we have death shroud, 5 moves there and 2 weapon swaps. That puts MM at upward 26 abilities versus many classes 16-18 they have to use regularly. Plus we have to manage our Life force because without it we lose basically any defenses against stuns (doom and Life force absorbing damage).

What makes MM powerful isn’t the pets doing damage, that’s avoidable. What makes them powerful is the amount of CC they can do (BY PRESSING BUTTONS), allowing their pets to be useful, plus adding on Dagger/Axe damage, they can do decent damage themselves. If you die to an MM running circles you’re terrible, sorry to say. Minions do like 200-300 damage hits, and 4 of them require them to be in melee range, and can be snared. Phantasms can land hits as big kitten -6k, on top of stealth, Phantasmal defender, pseudo Healing Signet etc.

Is it a little cheap? Sure. I’d rather do 50% more damage and my pets do 50% less. That’d be great! Then I’d still be worth having around if moa’d or my pets die to the insane amount of (apparently skillful?) aoe spam and other garbage.

In other words. MM may be a little cheap, but any good one will tell you it’s not brainless/skill-less as it takes more button coordination than most set ups. Only people who have no clue what they’re talking about can say that it’s skill-less. The bigger problem is that the entire pvp system in GW2 does nothing but promotes cheesy playstyles because the only legit ones get pushed out of the meta because cheese and easy playing is better than having to jumping through hoops just to perform decently. This, on top of the fact that the game simply looks like spam anyways, it gives the false impression that the MM does nothing but spam.

And the last little tid-bit, if an MM is running circles a lot in a team fight its because they have 0 cc breaks or survivability when locked down, so yeah, they kinda have to run. But when they’re running in circles they’re doing 50% of the damage they could be and FAR less CC than they could be, all of which needs the necromancer to actually be doing their job for.

That’s a ridiculous argument. Saying MM have more skills to use so it makes them harder is just silly. They have more skills because they are a Necro so yes, they have access to DS which gives them additional buttons.

The weaknesses you list are the weakness of any class that doesn’t bring stun breaks. While minions may have bad pathing, if you’re sitting on a point the pathing matters little at all.

Again managing life force is something any necromancer has to do.

The problem most certainly IS that it’s a brainless build. Understand I’m not calling YOU brainless. I’m saying the build is. I understand it’s your favorite build and you’ve been playing it longer than most, but that doesn’t mean that you have to cease using logic and reasoning and start defending it.

All of your arguments for it are simply false. Minions when specced properly hit like trucks. The amount of CC the build brings is simply for that, to immob someone so the minions can swarm them. It brings PASSIVE damage and PASSIVE healing. Sure the player can click buttons, but the build revolves around PASSIVE AI doing everything for you (i.e, healing, damage, CC, blocking projectiles etc).

I have over 1500 tournies on Necro alone so I can pretty much guarantee you I have a pretty good idea what I’m talking about here and although I know you don’t like to hear it because it’s your favorite build, it’s simply true that MM necro, along with Spirit ranger, Phantasm Mesmer etc are unfortunately builds that don’t require a lot of skill because you are letting the PASSIVE computer controlled AI do most of the work for you.

Unfortunately Anet listens to the masses, and they want easy to play builds that reward them for putting in the least amount of work possible to get positive results. There’s a reason that tournaments are littered with Spirit rangers, MM necros, Phantasm Mesmers and Hambow warriors now and it isn’t because in the right hands they give people a solid class that can excel with skillful play.

I faced two asura MM necros that liked to stack a few nights back… Being someone that selects targets with a mouse to be precise, this was truly painful, even forgetting about the 5-target AoE limit which makes this just horribly annoying.

Don’t know dude, I just play warrior.

Hard counters such as mesmer moa that adds to the rock/paper/scissor theme should be changed at some point versus added to. My perspective on mm’s is change it’s set till death nature and turn it into a low duration low cd summon.

Elite golem and bone minions relatively stays the same. Fiends, shadows, wurms, bloods, and jaggeds now need to sacrifice a bone minion that lasts for a set duration. In theory this would need the build to maintain the sacrifices for the situation at hand at fifty percent less adds.

So you could summon bone minions and with a new elite summon be able to sacrifice up to four bloods or four wurms or 1 wurm and 3 fiends etc. Or when using the golem which retains its set till death nature while upkeeping 2 bloods or 1 blood and 1 shadow etc. This all would be with low duration low cd skills so the necro would need to maintain its minions upkeep at crucial moments throughout the fight all of which could cut into the using of well timed weapon skills etc.

Ranger spirits is easy. Remove the trait to make them follow the user and instead increase it’s range and effects with a set duration as a spvp only version.

How many MM Necro’s are there in the high level PvP scene?

How many Warriors are there?

Warrior is a very passive profession as well so… yeah. Not sure how this complaint is legitimate.

TheGreatA.4192:

Full glass longbow rangers with bears which I reckon most players on this forum are running, considering the amount of random complaints about everything that ever existed in this game.

that sounds beautifull

Stx.4857:

How many MM Necro’s are there in the high level PvP scene?

How many Warriors are there?

Warrior is a very passive profession as well so… yeah. Not sure how this complaint is legitimate.

It’s not. Skillful play on warriors, engineers, other necros, eles, and guardians will beat an MM every time, regardless of the MM’s skill level. Hence no MM’s in high level PvP.

However, thieves, rangers, and mesmers will need to be skillful and go against a non-skillful MM to win more than 50% of the time.

The problem is that some players expect to win 100% on their favorite builds and cry “OP!” if they don’t.

@Ronpierce
50% less ai damage for more damage output on player controlled character. Welcome to the ranger forums 0-^. Would be a good change and still allow for necro melee which is a cool playstyle.

Stx.4857:

How many Warriors are there?

There was at least Cleon, Swan, Ajax, Snow, Cochise, Cowboy, Vermin, and Rembrandt.

Stx.4857:

How many MM Necro’s are there in the high level PvP scene?

How many Warriors are there?

Warrior is a very passive profession as well so… yeah. Not sure how this complaint is legitimate.

To be fair, I was top 10 TPvP with MM, but only when paired with a Spirit ranger roaming does it even work.. :/ And that’s not because of being MM. It’s buff duplication.

i dont like playing MM and i hate playing spirit ranger. maybe im not that good because i just couldnt make my zerker ranger useful for tpvp. winning battles with braindead specs is only fun for a short while. it gets old really fast.

I say just removed pvp in this game so QQ in this forums stops for even just a day. read all the thread in this forum i bet 90% if not more are QQ and mostly made and commented by same person and replied by same person over and over. i would curse every one here if i could, for being a bunch of wuss cry babies. u dont like it GTFO of pvp.

Lord Hammer Hand.4815:

I say just removed pvp in this game so QQ in this forums stops for even just a day. read all the thread in this forum i bet 90% if not more are QQ and mostly made and commented by same person and replied by same person over and over. i would curse every one here if i could, for being a bunch of wuss cry babies. u dont like it GTFO of pvp.

Uhh, you know you dont have to read the posts right? It’s a forum to communicate what you think it is good or bad with PVP, it’s not made exactly to care if YOU dont like the posts or not.

And to “ah they dont even get to high level tournament play” remark, ofc not there are tons of warriors running around, or you think the spirit ranger numbers dropped by chance?

ronpierce.2760:

I love reading stuff like this. I played MM since the beginning and when I did and joined Tpvp and said “Hey, I’m MM” they LAUGHED at me and made fun of me and made comments like “have fun dying” and “way to be useless”. A year later, not much has changed, we got some minor buffs and then some minor nerfs and NOW everyone is complaining about it. Gotta love how popularity determines how OP something is. :P

Actually, a lot changed since launch.

Active of minion skill become instant, except of the Flesh Golem charge, which is an huge change.
The survivability and the healing provided by Blood Fiend has been greatly buffed.
The DS bug was fixed, buffing the survivability of Necromancers with proper Life Force generation (so MMs) greatly.
Vampiric Master was changed to also deal damage, scaling with power, buffing the damage of minions of approximately 100 each with Soldier Amulet (HUGE buff).
Death Nova was changed to deal damage.
Shadow Fiend active now gives life force.

That changes alone were huge buffs to minionmasters.
Before all of those buffs, minion damage was ok-ish, while the master was easy to pin down, making a good build for new players because the ease to play while learning the game mechanics.
Then add this to the fact that Elementalists completely fell out of meta and there you have the full picture.

Now the master is incredibly tough and minions hit like a truck, making it extremely strong in unorganized gamemodes, like SoloQ and pugging TeamQ.
Not to say the huge clutter they create.

sorrow.2364:

ronpierce.2760:

I love reading stuff like this. I played MM since the beginning and when I did and joined Tpvp and said “Hey, I’m MM” they LAUGHED at me and made fun of me and made comments like “have fun dying” and “way to be useless”. A year later, not much has changed, we got some minor buffs and then some minor nerfs and NOW everyone is complaining about it. Gotta love how popularity determines how OP something is. :P

Actually, a lot changed since launch.

Active of minion skill become instant, except of the Flesh Golem charge, which is an huge change.
The survivability and the healing provided by Blood Fiend has been greatly buffed.
The DS bug was fixed, buffing the survivability of Necromancers with proper Life Force generation (so MMs) greatly.
Vampiric Master was changed to also deal damage, scaling with power, buffing the damage of minions of approximately 100 each with Soldier Amulet (HUGE buff).
Death Nova was changed to deal damage.
Shadow Fiend active now gives life force.

That changes alone were huge buffs to minionmasters.
Before all of those buffs, minion damage was ok-ish, while the master was easy to pin down, making a good build for new players because the ease to play while learning the game mechanics.
Then add this to the fact that Elementalists completely fell out of meta and there you have the full picture.

Now the master is incredibly tough and minions hit like a truck, making it extremely strong in unorganized gamemodes, like SoloQ and pugging TeamQ.
Not to say the huge clutter they create.

With the change to Bloodthirst they actually nerfed the healing I receive from them, even if they do more damage. They nerfed staff in various crippling ways. I don’t use shadow fiend, and not that many do because its pretty squishy. The casted pet abilities only really affected rigor mortis, which in the grand scheme of things wasn’t that big. MMs don’t spend much time in DS because the more time you do the less you can cc your enemies and your minions die, and you also don’t gain healing from them when you are in it, its actually kind of setting yourself up for failure. A good mm can survive just fine with little DS use. That said, they also nerfed DS in the sense that it has roll over damage from bursts.

I didn’t say they didn’t get buffed, but they also received nerfs too, and none of them except the siphon damage really changed much. And the damage buff (at the cost of some healing and a screwed up staff) was about 90×5/3= 150 dps buff in BEST conditions, assuming you never use your bone minion ability and pets never die. Or you use shadow fiend which is notorious for dying. Of course this is high end tpvp I’m talking about, not 1v1, which everyone should know by now isn’t how they balance.

ronpierce.2760:

With the change to Bloodthirst they actually nerfed the healing I receive from them, even if they do more damage. They nerfed staff in various crippling ways. I don’t use shadow fiend, and not that many do because its pretty squishy. The casted pet abilities only really affected rigor mortis, which in the grand scheme of things wasn’t that big. MMs don’t spend much time in DS because the more time you do the less you can cc your enemies and your minions die, and you also don’t gain healing from them when you are in it, its actually kind of setting yourself up for failure. A good mm can survive just fine with little DS use. That said, they also nerfed DS in the sense that it has roll over damage from bursts.

I didn’t say they didn’t get buffed, but they also received nerfs too, and none of them except the siphon damage really changed much. And the damage buff (at the cost of some healing and a screwed up staff) was about 90×5/3= 150 dps buff in BEST conditions, assuming you never use your bone minion ability and pets never die. Or you use shadow fiend which is notorious for dying. Of course this is high end tpvp I’m talking about, not 1v1, which everyone should know by now isn’t how they balance.

The nerf to the healing of minions was worthless anyway, since the sustain they provide wasn’t relevant anyway to the survivability of the Necro.

Also, I didn’t expected such kind of statements from you, ron, because as far I know you have a good amount of experience with Necromancers.
Are you actually trying to push the argument that MMs should avoid to get into Death Shroud to survive?
Come on.
The survivability of Necromancer is strictly tied to Death Shroud, not to the low heals that minions provide when attacking. The sustain provided through Death Shroud is far superior to any form of healing Necromancer has access to, not to say that the best defensive CCs are in Death Shroud.

Staff nerfs are unrelated to MM and they don’t hit that build at all, unless you run conditions. You can run Dagger & Axe on MM builds without any problems, having much more survivability because of the high LF generation.

The damage spilling to HP on low LF amounts is nowhere close to the huge buff of the DS damage “fix”.

The fact that activated minion skills are insta-casts help a lot to increase the fluency of the fight. In the time you’re not casting those skills, you are, of course, casting other skills and perhaps putting further pressure on your enemy.

Shadow Fiend is far from squishy. It has about 16000 HP and 2125 armor and it is the fastest hitting minion, at one attack every 1.64s. In comparison, only Flesh Golem and Blood Fiend are more survivable, while only Flesh Golem attacks faster.

Also, your calculation of DPS increase is extremely wrong. Assuming you have 5 minions skills, only Summon Blood Fiend provides provides just one Vampiric Master trigger every 3s. Flesh Golem provides one trigger every 1.2s, Bone Minions and Bone Fiend provides 2 triggers every 3s each, Shadow Fiend provides 2 triggers every 3s. Jagged Horror provides Vamp triggers too.

I don’t have time to get into a full debate right now, class soon. But I will later. And you’re incredibly wrong about staff. Staff is superior for power in tpvp for group utility. I run staff/Dagger focus. DF/AW works too but I’ve only ever felt it lowers survivability, and takes away your best shot at having any cleave damage/Kiting potential in dire moments. Especially since axe 1 is terrible and axe 2 easily gets interrupted due to line of sight unlike dagger 2. Staff provides Chill, poison, spot condi removal, a blast finisher, Aoe fear* from 1200 range and Aoe regen. All of which is super useful. The nerf of Putrid mark, Blast finisher weakness, and moving greater marks to Masters were huge nerfs since FotM is mandatory. This is the set up I was running in top 10. Simply put axe isn’t very good/useful and further holes mm into single target pressure, effectively making them cruddy team fighters.

I agree Death nova can be problematic but Fetid consumption is mandatory for a good mm in high end or conditions wreck you. And it even helps alleviate issues with immobilize, fear, chill and cripple. Death nova is OP in the sense that its niche. If you have 3 mms on point and people are aoeing a lot, people take a ton of passive damage in Aoe poison fields. Again, that’s a problem with class stacking and the trait being niche (and in my opinion) bad and bad for the game. So, sure you have any point you want to make about death nova.

As far as the death shroud, I won’t take back what i said. I use DS a lot, but I never sit in it for it to drain because while I do I’m wasting time I could be ccing, healing from minion hits, keeping them alive or resummoning dead ones. Also I never risk not having any lf in case of an emergency doom needed while being cced. Believe me, I know how to play mm lol.

And for the siphon damage, you’re right. I forgot to factor in the double hit from bone fiend, but also many mms (who aren’t trying to win as passively as possible or know how to use blood fiend well) run consume conditions. (I do however use Blood fiend). And not all mm run full minions, and will drop shadow/wurm for a utility like well of power for tpvp. While more than it used to be, full mm bars are more viable than they were. Yes it can stack to maybe about 250 dps, you have to realize they die, some get sacrificed, don’t have perfect uptime etc. we’re not fighting dummies. (This is actually why mm is so powerful against noobs.)

Also, all minions are squishy… 16k, 25k hp all is an illusion. Pets don’t have evades, a huge self heal or fancy footwork to back that HP up. In real fights (not paper notes) they die very frequently and very fast. Especially when the enemy team has an engineer, warrior*, Condi necro, so on and so-forth. They are strong 1 on 1 and don’t die too much if the enemy isn’t one of the above, which is why they end up as side-bunkers. That said, smart players, specifically thieves can kite minions away from the platforms and fight with relatively little pressure, since they know they won’t have the point until you are gone, they don’t feel obligated to fight on point. And again, if this turns into 2v1 you don’t have NEARLY the staying power of most true-bunks. This includes having no stability and cc breakers.

Mm damage could used toned down a little and death nova could be canned for all I care, but Mm are NOT without their glaring flaws that people dismiss so easily. Likely be fuse they speak while having no clue whatsoever. And considering I’m one of the VERY few MM to have played in the top 50, I don’t see how a lot of people could tell me otherwise. I’ve never once denied that MM is an absolute noob killer. But it’s not the only one and it’s not even close to the top of the meta in tpvp, only annoying in niche teams.

The necro mm can be micro managed by skilled players but, like the spirit ranger it is screen clutter. How would you change the mm so that it softens its moa counter?

ronpierce.2760:

cut.

Fact is that staff is a weapon for any build.
Saying that staff was nerfed is irrelevant since it isn’t a requirement for MM builds more as it is for any build, neither it is related to minions.

Let me get this straight, did you tried to say that DS isn’t a core defensive mechanic of Necromancers and having higher DS pool added to increased LF generation capability isn’t an huge boost to survivability? Because if you didn’t, you did not contraddicted my point.

Whats exactly the point of saying that minions die? They don’t die more often as they did before and a 100 damage buff on attacks that usually hit for about 200 to 800 depending on minions is huge.

Minions are not squishy.
Yes, they don’t dodge, but they don’t get focused by players too and are in lower priority on the AoE cap of 5 entities, which is the only reasonable way to kill minions.

Yes, one minionmaster will lose all of his minions in a midfight, but stacking 2 or even 3 of them will not lead to the same output, since the AoEs just can’t keep up to the huge amount of minions (again because of the 5 entities cap).
They are extremely good in small scale fights, while being also good in teamfights when stacked up.

The main problem with minions is the screen clutter they create, the AoE cap when they stack up and the insane DPS they can output even on bunky characters while being completely passive.
Minions, also, are too tough to consider to kill them in 1vs1, making them pretty much impossible to fight against when they bunk a point.

Blood fiend is viable to kill, and little known fact it is simply a weaker Healing signet with a TON of drawbacks, one being that it CAN die. And the point of saying they can die means even in best scenario the added 250 MAX dps is only against a dummy target. Point being: it wasn’t as big of a boost as can be claimed. And with the nerfs it evens itself out a bit. The changes simply made all mm builds more oriented toward damage than hybrid/bunkering.

Yes clutter is an issue. But one culprit of clutter shown in just about EVERY picture of people complaining about MM is that enemy pet name plates are on. (As is in my sig) if nameplates are turned off for enemy minions (not players), that clutter is far less HINDERING. Fact is, Blood fiend, Flesh wurm and Bone fiend are ranged attackers with no flashy animations. That isn’t very hindering. People have a hard time even noticing bone minions, so what are the biggest issues? Fleshy is too big and shadow fiend is annoying. (You can’t even have all of these at once). Now, class stacking IS an issue. But this isn’t just an mm issue. 5 warriors, 5 mesmers, 5 nade engies, 5 guardians is all annoying regardless of clutter. Maybe they need a 2 cap per class on spvp teams? (solo and team). That would alleviate some of that issue, plus fixing name plates and life suddenly isn’t so bad.

Additionally, like they did with tab targeting, make aoes prioritize any players before minions, then anything hitting minions is just bonus for the other player, and doesn’t stop them from hitting the primary targets. I’d be fine with this! But people would rather kitten about mm and not discuss the real issues or ways to fix it without saying it should just be banished. Or instead of wanting everything handed to you on a platter you could think, “Wow, minions are an interesting COUNTER to Aoe spam, as they provide Aoe absorbing UTILITY to a group.” But nah, its way easier to complain if you die to something. I don’t like belong stunned… Maybe they should remove all stuns just because it messes with the flow of my playing, right? Its a slippery slope.

Also if you don’t tab target and only click that isn’t an mm issue. That’s a l2p issue. You’re intended to use both not one or the other. No sympathy given. That’s like complaining you can’t kite effectively because you refuse to strafe and prefer to backpedal… Also they ready changed it so tab targeting prefers players. People still suggest this, and don’t realize this is already the case. Goes to show how much they test before they start complaining.

And I never said DS isn’t vital for survivability. You’re taking what I say out of context to make a moot point. I said I don’t sit in it. If you sit in it any time you have some life force and drain it constantly, you won’t have any when you need to twitch play using doom or suck up unavoidable damage while being stunlocked. Clearly you aren’t getting this, nor trying to get what I’m saying so just leave death shroud out of this. Point is while DS is a good defensive tool, it stops you from doing a lot of other things when using it, and life force isn’t ALWAYS entirely readily available, meaning even our anti cc measure (doom) and gap closer (dark path) isn’t always available. Hence; its best to never fully drain yourself of life force below 10-15%.

ronpierce.2760:

Yes clutter is an issue. But one culprit of clutter shown in just about EVERY picture of people complaining about MM is that enemy pet name plates are on. (As is in my sig) if nameplates are turned off for enemy minions (not players), that clutter is far less HINDERING. Fact is, Blood fiend, Flesh wurm and Bone fiend are ranged attackers with no flashy animations. That isn’t very hindering. People have a hard time even noticing bone minions, so what are the biggest issues? Fleshy is too big and shadow fiend is annoying. (You can’t even have all of these at once). Now, class stacking IS an issue. But this isn’t just an mm issue. 5 warriors, 5 mesmers, 5 nade engies, 5 guardians is all annoying regardless of clutter. Maybe they need a 2 cap per class on spvp teams? (solo and team). That would alleviate some of that issue, plus fixing name plates and life suddenly isn’t so bad.

Additionally, like they did with tab targeting, make aoes prioritize any players before minions, then anything hitting minions is just bonus for the other player, and doesn’t stop them from hitting the primary targets. I’d be fine with this! But people would rather kitten about mm and not discuss the real issues or ways to fix it without saying it should just be banished. Or instead of wanting everything handed to you on a platter you could think, “Wow, minions are an interesting COUNTER to Aoe spam, as they provide Aoe absorbing UTILITY to a group.” But nah, its way easier to complain if you die to something. I don’t like belong stunned… Maybe they should remove all stuns just because it messes with the flow of my playing, right? Its a slippery slope.

Also if you don’t tab target and only click that isn’t an mm issue. That’s a l2p issue. You’re intended to use both not one or the other. No sympathy given. That’s like complaining you can’t kite effectively because you refuse to strafe and prefer to backpedal… Also they ready changed it so tab targeting prefers players. People still suggest this, and don’t realize this is already the case. Goes to show how much they test before they start complaining.

And I never said DS isn’t vital for survivability. You’re taking what I say out of context to make a moot point. I said I don’t sit in it. If you sit in it any time you have some life force and drain it constantly, you won’t have any when you need to twitch play using doom or suck up unavoidable damage while being stunlocked. Clearly you aren’t getting this, nor trying to get what I’m saying so just leave death shroud out of this. Point is while DS is a good defensive tool, it stops you from doing a lot of other things when using it, and life force isn’t ALWAYS entirely readily available, meaning even our anti cc measure (doom) and gap closer (dark path) isn’t always available. Hence; its best to never fully drain yourself of life force below 10-15%.

The issue is not about targeting, neither about nameplates (which hiding them makes everything harder too). The issue is about animations and small character models sneaking around big minions unnoticed. Nameplates is the only thing which gives you a chance to notice that asura sneaking in all of that clutter and you’re suggesting to disable it? Really?
Sometimes you can’t even notice an asura stomping you when you have all of this mess on your downed body and when you see the asura jumping before the stomp, it is too late to interrupt him. Sometimes it happens even on humans because how big Shadow Fiend and Golem are.

AoEs already prioritize human targets, it was changed in one of the last patches and that is the real issue.
If you stack as much AI as possible, huge amounts of AoE aren’t enough to wipe that amount of AI because of the AoE cap.
AoE isn’t the issue, AoE is a core part of the game which is incentivate by the node design and it isn’t even that much of a problem, unless you want to walk with your AI army on the midpoint node and expect to walk out intact.

About DS, I seriously start to think that you’re trying to make up arguments just to say that I have no clue. I’ll quote you the sentence which started all of this.

The DS bug was fixed, buffing the survivability of Necromancers with proper Life Force generation (so MMs) greatly.

Then you’ve said that MMs can survive with little DS use, which is a flat out lie and any decent Necromancer knows that.

I’ve never talked about sitting in Death Shroud, that’s something you made up entirely.

Omg… why isn`t this community like the wow one, I never once thought I will miss it. at least there, they cry about a class only when it concerns high rating pvp. MM necro is as OP as blood death knight… against unskilled players.

Poplolita.2638:

Omg… why isn`t this community like the wow one, I never once thought I will miss it. at least there, they cry about a class only when it concerns high rating pvp. MM necro is as OP as blood death knight… against unskilled players.

Honestly, where are these mythical crying posts?

I think ron and sorrow are discussing pre vs post mm changes. The mm build is micro managing screen clutter with a hard counter. Would you soften the counter and if so how?

All this arguing back and forth is silly.

You simply can’t argue with the fact that MM falls into the passive build category. You have passive healing coming from Blood Fiend and siphons and you have passive damage that comes from all the minions. You can’t say it’s not a passive build because you still get to click some buttons from time to time. Stop trying to defend the build as anything but.

If Anet was smart and wanted to leave MM as a viable option without it being a brain dead no skill build then they would take away the passive healing/passive attacks and make it so that minions ONLY interact when their skill is triggered. Make it so that minions don’t absorb any damage or count towards AoE cap and don’t intercept projectiles.

Then and ONLY then would this build not be considered something lame and for the skill-less masses.

Kryshade.6075:

All this arguing back and forth is silly.

You simply can’t argue with the fact that MM falls into the passive build category. You have passive healing coming from Blood Fiend and siphons and you have passive damage that comes from all the minions. You can’t say it’s not a passive build because you still get to click some buttons from time to time. Stop trying to defend the build as anything but.

If Anet was smart and wanted to leave MM as a viable option without it being a brain dead no skill build then they would take away the passive healing/passive attacks and make it so that minions ONLY interact when their skill is triggered. Make it so that minions don’t absorb any damage or count towards AoE cap and don’t intercept projectiles.

Then and ONLY then would this build not be considered something lame and for the skill-less masses.

If they did this, then it would be useless. Where’s the compensation for the load of downsides? Where’s our protection, aegis, endurance regen, etc? You know. Stuff that’s also passive bonuses once applied (sometimes not even needing to be applied)… You pretend MM is unique, it’s only unique in its form of play, which is good, but passive benefits are absolutely NOT unique to MM. You, just like any other player who hates “x” build, has a bias and only wants 1 thing, to destroy what you a.) don’t understand and b.) what you don’t like. By that logic boons, conditions, criticals, 80% of the traits and abilities with secondary effects should just not exist.

Why not have the game simplified to block, roll, kick and punch? Oh wait… That’s Street Fighter… Go enjoy. This IS an MMO, and thus not everything has to be streamlined. You just have to adapt and learn to deal with things that annoy you. Not complain until it’s dead. (Which is what usually happens anyways)

One person said it beautifully. MM is a class about strategy and setting up the target for failure, while most classes are built less “strategically” and more based around twitch play and button mashing. I’m not here to say either is wrong, but don’t shoot the other guy because it is how they prefer to play. I can guarantee you good MMs have more to worry about/watch over than just about any class you play, which often boil down to combos, aoe spams and evading a lot. The game isn’t hard, and doesn’t need to be oversimplified because you can’t deal with 1 thing or the other.

Also, to Sorrow, this is why I said drop the Death shroud conversation. We’re misinterpreting what the other is saying entirely. I didn’t say I use it minimally as in rarely use it. I mean I stand in it minimally so that I can use it for twitch reactions and DS abilities on demand. I said this because you were going on and on about huge LF pools, but essentially the only time you sit in your “huge” LF pool is when you’re about to die anyways. If you’re on the winning side of a fight sitting in DS makes you lose traction. Lets just say we’re saying the same thing and fighting about misunderstanding of word choice and leave it at that.

Do what I do, roll a heavy aoe spec, KILL ALL MINIONS, run out. Don’t even bother killing the necro. They think they could troll…. lol It’s a little funny because I run shatter mesmer. So 1 mindwrack basically wrecks all minions to shreds. Once the necro brings them up again, I just sneak in Moa Morph and watch the minions going mass murdered with joy.

ronpierce.2760:

If they did this, then it would be useless. Where’s the compensation for the load of downsides? Where’s our protection, aegis, endurance regen, etc? You know. Stuff that’s also passive bonuses once applied (sometimes not even needing to be applied)… You pretend MM is unique, it’s only unique in its form of play, which is good, but passive benefits are absolutely NOT unique to MM. You, just like any other player who hates “x” build, has a bias and only wants 1 thing, to destroy what you a.) don’t understand and b.) what you don’t like. By that logic boons, conditions, criticals, 80% of the traits and abilities with secondary effects should just not exist.

Why not have the game simplified to block, roll, kick and punch? Oh wait… That’s Street Fighter… Go enjoy. This IS an MMO, and thus not everything has to be streamlined. You just have to adapt and learn to deal with things that annoy you. Not complain until it’s dead. (Which is what usually happens anyways)

One person said it beautifully. MM is a class about strategy and setting up the target for failure, while most classes are built less “strategically” and more based around twitch play and button mashing. I’m not here to say either is wrong, but don’t shoot the other guy because it is how they prefer to play. I can guarantee you good MMs have more to worry about/watch over than just about any class you play, which often boil down to combos, aoe spams and evading a lot. The game isn’t hard, and doesn’t need to be oversimplified because you can’t deal with 1 thing or the other.

Also, to Sorrow, this is why I said drop the Death shroud conversation. We’re misinterpreting what the other is saying entirely. I didn’t say I use it minimally as in rarely use it. I mean I stand in it minimally so that I can use it for twitch reactions and DS abilities on demand. I said this because you were going on and on about huge LF pools, but essentially the only time you sit in your “huge” LF pool is when you’re about to die anyways. If you’re on the winning side of a fight sitting in DS makes you lose traction. Lets just say we’re saying the same thing and fighting about misunderstanding of word choice and leave it at that.

Obviously if they took away the passive benefits I would expect they boost some of the active skills of the minions. I don’t expect a complete gutting of the build, what I want is to see the PASSIVE PLAY taken out. I would like to see that for all builds to be honest.

Where I’m disagreeing with you is in your defense that the build is not a PASSIVE BUILD. I would personally love to see more viable builds for every class. What I can’t stand to see and personally feel is part of the decline of PvP is that Anet has started shifting toward more and more passive abilities. This is stupid and the unskilled masses will flock to AI builds because it requires very little on their part.

MM is passive anyway you look at it. Understand I’m not calling you a bad player. I’m saying the MM build is an AI controlled passive build that is a “bit” too strong for the low skill ceiling required to play it.

My bias isn’t towards MM but it’s with ALL AI builds. I have had the exact same feelings and discussions about Phantasm Mesmer and Spirit Ranger as well. People defending those builds is what I find funny. Don’t defend something that requires no skill to play. You might be good at it and it might fit your play style but at least acknowledge and be willing to say that it doesn’t require very much thought or skill to play since the AI is doing the work.

Kryshade.6075:

If Anet was smart and wanted to leave MM as a viable option without it being a brain dead no skill build then they would take away the passive healing/passive attacks and make it so that minions ONLY interact when their skill is triggered. Make it so that minions don’t absorb any damage or count towards AoE cap and don’t intercept projectiles.

This is honestly where I wish they went with Guardian Spirits. Right now they’re just a weaker form of Necromancer minions. They’d also would have needed to change the traits though.

As to the rest of your post, passive builds are fine as long as they’re as easy to counter as they are to run. MM has it’s weaknesses which is why players tend to use them on side points or other engineered 1v1 situations: it increases their chances of success since most people aren’t running much AoE for those situations.

Which is why the MM gets so many complaints. Most people don’t run AoE. Most run glass cannon burst builds for the big numbers. MM necros, in particular, destroy those builds.

90% of my battles as an MM go like this. A thief or some other burst glass jumps me and unloads all their skills. Depending on how I react, which is usually very little, I take about 50% to 75% damage from a large health pool. Now they are standing in the middle of my minions, while I have all my skills at hand (plus death shroud, usually), and they’ve just used up their skills/initiative. The battle is decided.

How do I fight MMs? As a glass cannon, I don’t unless I’m with an ally. As anything else, I pressure them. Keep the damage steady and use CCs. Most of the minions can be ignored, with the following exceptions: Blood fiend (I’m baffled that no one kills these things) and Flesh golem (just need to watch for its charge). In most of my battles as an MM, my minions are gone pretty fast, and I still do well. I remember one battle when a mesmer Moa’d me. First, I pecked the hell out of him, then finished him off with my axe.

In general, I don’t have any problem fighting MMs. Other types of necros are far more troublesome. If you’re not able to beat MMs consistently, look at your build and style of play. There’s no reason that I can beat them and you can’t. I truly believe that this is simply a learning curve as it was with the shatter mesmer, which is no longer near the threat it used to be back when people didn’t understand it. Just like mesmers, MMs are going to challenge new players and those unwilling to improve or adapt.

You just reminded me that one of the ways people managed to beat Mesmers was understanding their burst and how to dodge it, then rushing the Mesmer down. PU is more annoying because they’re putting out Phantasms that stay further back and out of most AoE and cleave. You have to go out of your way to kill some them. And the Mesmer himself is more protected with stealth and defensive boons, so you can’t rush him down as easily anymore.

haviz.1340:

Cynz.9437:

i faced 4 mm necros (playing asuras heh) and 1 engi…. i wanted to afk tbh

lv 50 fractal dredge map is more fun than this crap

anet should just give every class army of pets so we can all roll asuras, sit afk at points and watch pokemon battles while entire map is covered in puddles of death

And you were asking people why they prefer pve over pvp.

spirts ranger is the same
but u need L2P to counter MM team
split for just capping or play 2 war hammerchain or play with 3 mesmer or condi thief
or DD ele or ecc

its no l2p issue
its just annoying when i have to fight a zerg in an 1v1

all this nameplates is clutter on screen and not needed in gw2 pvp

DaShi.1368:

Which is why the MM gets so many complaints. Most people don’t run AoE. Most run glass cannon burst builds for the big numbers. MM necros, in particular, destroy those builds.

90% of my battles as an MM go like this. A thief or some other burst glass jumps me and unloads all their skills. Depending on how I react, which is usually very little, I take about 50% to 75% damage from a large health pool. Now they are standing in the middle of my minions, while I have all my skills at hand (plus death shroud, usually), and they’ve just used up their skills/initiative. The battle is decided.

How do I fight MMs? As a glass cannon, I don’t unless I’m with an ally. As anything else, I pressure them. Keep the damage steady and use CCs. Most of the minions can be ignored, with the following exceptions: Blood fiend (I’m baffled that no one kills these things) and Flesh golem (just need to watch for its charge). In most of my battles as an MM, my minions are gone pretty fast, and I still do well. I remember one battle when a mesmer Moa’d me. First, I pecked the hell out of him, then finished him off with my axe.

In general, I don’t have any problem fighting MMs. Other types of necros are far more troublesome. If you’re not able to beat MMs consistently, look at your build and style of play. There’s no reason that I can beat them and you can’t. I truly believe that this is simply a learning curve as it was with the shatter mesmer, which is no longer near the threat it used to be back when people didn’t understand it. Just like mesmers, MMs are going to challenge new players and those unwilling to improve or adapt.

First off, this meta has marginal representations of glass cannons, as it is a quite tanky meta and it is well known that a glass cannon isn’t supposed to rush a far point anyway, so…

The problem comes when someone who is supposed to rush a far point, so a Warrior or an Engineer, has incredibly hard time because of how tough are minions to put down. When you’re trying to kill minions, you are completely ignoring the Necromancer, which is free to use all the CCs he has to hinder you. Then it is just a matter of how tough you are and how much the Necromancer is spamming his CCs.

Most times, you will just end up downed if the Necromancer knows at least to not autoattack when minions are alive before you can manage to kill them.
On the other side, focusing the Necromancer at first place is the fastest way to die.

In most cases, the effectiveness/efforts ratio is way too high for that build. Even the dumbest player can at least survive an assault for enough time for a teammate to come, making far point assaulting when a MM is bunkering it completely worthless.

All this without counting the “meat shield” minions provide (i.e. projectile blocking) and the screen clutter they provide.

In the teldo steam was a very nice fight against a MM necro. The necro did not see Teldo coming and run into the wrong direction like a monkey. Still won the fight.

So much minors
very skill
wow

sorrow.2364:

DaShi.1368:

Which is why the MM gets so many complaints. Most people don’t run AoE. Most run glass cannon burst builds for the big numbers. MM necros, in particular, destroy those builds.

90% of my battles as an MM go like this. A thief or some other burst glass jumps me and unloads all their skills. Depending on how I react, which is usually very little, I take about 50% to 75% damage from a large health pool. Now they are standing in the middle of my minions, while I have all my skills at hand (plus death shroud, usually), and they’ve just used up their skills/initiative. The battle is decided.

How do I fight MMs? As a glass cannon, I don’t unless I’m with an ally. As anything else, I pressure them. Keep the damage steady and use CCs. Most of the minions can be ignored, with the following exceptions: Blood fiend (I’m baffled that no one kills these things) and Flesh golem (just need to watch for its charge). In most of my battles as an MM, my minions are gone pretty fast, and I still do well. I remember one battle when a mesmer Moa’d me. First, I pecked the hell out of him, then finished him off with my axe.

In general, I don’t have any problem fighting MMs. Other types of necros are far more troublesome. If you’re not able to beat MMs consistently, look at your build and style of play. There’s no reason that I can beat them and you can’t. I truly believe that this is simply a learning curve as it was with the shatter mesmer, which is no longer near the threat it used to be back when people didn’t understand it. Just like mesmers, MMs are going to challenge new players and those unwilling to improve or adapt.

First off, this meta has marginal representations of glass cannons, as it is a quite tanky meta and it is well known that a glass cannon isn’t supposed to rush a far point anyway, so…

The problem comes when someone who is supposed to rush a far point, so a Warrior or an Engineer, has incredibly hard time because of how tough are minions to put down. When you’re trying to kill minions, you are completely ignoring the Necromancer, which is free to use all the CCs he has to hinder you. Then it is just a matter of how tough you are and how much the Necromancer is spamming his CCs.

Most times, you will just end up downed if the Necromancer knows at least to not autoattack when minions are alive before you can manage to kill them.
On the other side, focusing the Necromancer at first place is the fastest way to die.

In most cases, the effectiveness/efforts ratio is way too high for that build. Even the dumbest player can at least survive an assault for enough time for a teammate to come, making far point assaulting when a MM is bunkering it completely worthless.

All this without counting the “meat shield” minions provide (i.e. projectile blocking) and the screen clutter they provide.

Your on the money Anet needs to read this and do somthing about it

Romek.4201:

its no l2p issue
its just annoying when i have to fight a zerg in an 1v1

all this nameplates is clutter on screen and not needed in gw2 pvp

Then TURN OFF THE NAMEPLATES. (See my signature)
And like I’ve explained. Yes MM has a lot of passive DAMAGE, but the minion damage alone should never kill someone, unless they’re a noob and just terrible, like many are. Most people who have the hardest times with mm are either glass cannons (it’s fine to have counters in the game, hell, moa and any other aoe build against an mm?). And people who stand in 1 place and take everything to the face.

Basically instead of having huge passive DEFENSES like other classes get through boons and so forth, they get passive DAMAGE, and focus most of their time supporting their minions by ccing the enemy so that they CAN do damage and not die, while doing still 50% of the damage themselves. Get it? The whole game has passive crap, its just that MM necros have their passive benefits in a different field while having a huge lack of mobility/cc breaks/evades/blocks/defensive boons/on demand condition removal/so forth. It boils down to you not liking the playstyle, but in reality there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. You just have to learn to adapt or…. well, or don’t and just keep crying about it until your tears drown all of the minions.

ronpierce.2760:

Romek.4201:

its no l2p issue
its just annoying when i have to fight a zerg in an 1v1

all this nameplates is clutter on screen and not needed in gw2 pvp

Then TURN OFF THE NAMEPLATES. (See my signature)
And like I’ve explained. Yes MM has a lot of passive DAMAGE, but the minion damage alone should never kill someone, unless they’re a noob and just terrible, like many are. Most people who have the hardest times with mm are either glass cannons (it’s fine to have counters in the game, hell, moa and any other aoe build against an mm?). And people who stand in 1 place and take everything to the face.

Basically instead of having huge passive DEFENSES like other classes get through boons and so forth, they get passive DAMAGE, and focus most of their time supporting their minions by ccing the enemy so that they CAN do damage and not die, while doing still 50% of the damage themselves. Get it? The whole game has passive crap, its just that MM necros have their passive benefits in a different field while having a huge lack of mobility/cc breaks/evades/blocks/defensive boons/on demand condition removal/so forth. It boils down to you not liking the playstyle, but in reality there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. You just have to learn to adapt or…. well, or don’t and just keep crying about it until your tears drown all of the minions.

Justifying MM counters ‘glass cannons’ because moa form kills minions seems ‘confusing’

As mentioned the build doesn’t use mobility/cc breaks/evades/blocks/defensive boons/on demand condition removal.

So it basically counters skilled, well practised players running any sort of skill shot.

MM is an easy spec to play. How can it be a hard spec when you can have insane dps, decent condition damage, tankiness, high hp and an army of ai’s around you? i dont get it why these people are still defending this build.

Lupanic.6502:

In the teldo steam was a very nice fight against a MM necro. The necro did not see Teldo coming and run into the wrong direction like a monkey. Still won the fight.

So much minors
very skill
wow

Man, it is obvious that Teldo just needs to L2P.

ronpierce.2760:

Then TURN OFF THE NAMEPLATES. (See my signature)
And like I’ve explained. Yes MM has a lot of passive DAMAGE, but the minion damage alone should never kill someone, unless they’re a noob and just terrible, like many are. Most people who have the hardest times with mm are either glass cannons (it’s fine to have counters in the game, hell, moa and any other aoe build against an mm?). And people who stand in 1 place and take everything to the face.

Basically instead of having huge passive DEFENSES like other classes get through boons and so forth, they get passive DAMAGE, and focus most of their time supporting their minions by ccing the enemy so that they CAN do damage and not die, while doing still 50% of the damage themselves. Get it? The whole game has passive crap, its just that MM necros have their passive benefits in a different field while having a huge lack of mobility/cc breaks/evades/blocks/defensive boons/on demand condition removal/so forth. It boils down to you not liking the playstyle, but in reality there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. You just have to learn to adapt or…. well, or don’t and just keep crying about it until your tears drown all of the minions.

It’s not a problem of nameplates, it is a problem of 3D MODELS. Minions are big, asuras are small. Got it?

Of course minions can’t kill someone all of themselves, but they output pretty much the 70-80% of damage, ontop of the damage and CC provided by the Necro himself. It would be a complete joke if you can just kite the damage and let minion kill everything alone.

The justification of “but look at other classes” has always been a flawed point.
What you have to do is explain to us why it is fair in your opinion that a build which relies on 80% on AI is always a tough encounter even against experienced and good players.

ronpierce.2760:

it’s fine to have counters in the game, hell, moa and any other aoe build against an mm?

That is the direction I tried to move the discussion in. Does the mm need to be changed in order to soften its hard counter? In a nutshell the mm build to many is not fun due in part it can be hard countered by one skill.

sorrow.2364:

ronpierce.2760:

Then TURN OFF THE NAMEPLATES. (See my signature)
And like I’ve explained. Yes MM has a lot of passive DAMAGE, but the minion damage alone should never kill someone, unless they’re a noob and just terrible, like many are. Most people who have the hardest times with mm are either glass cannons (it’s fine to have counters in the game, hell, moa and any other aoe build against an mm?). And people who stand in 1 place and take everything to the face.

Basically instead of having huge passive DEFENSES like other classes get through boons and so forth, they get passive DAMAGE, and focus most of their time supporting their minions by ccing the enemy so that they CAN do damage and not die, while doing still 50% of the damage themselves. Get it? The whole game has passive crap, its just that MM necros have their passive benefits in a different field while having a huge lack of mobility/cc breaks/evades/blocks/defensive boons/on demand condition removal/so forth. It boils down to you not liking the playstyle, but in reality there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. You just have to learn to adapt or…. well, or don’t and just keep crying about it until your tears drown all of the minions.

It’s not a problem of nameplates, it is a problem of 3D MODELS. Minions are big, asuras are small. Got it?

Of course minions can’t kill someone all of themselves, but they output pretty much the 70-80% of damage, ontop of the damage and CC provided by the Necro himself. It would be a complete joke if you can just kite the damage and let minion kill everything alone.

The justification of “but look at other classes” has always been a flawed point.
What you have to do is explain to us why it is fair in your opinion that a build which relies on 80% on AI is always a tough encounter even against experienced and good players.

This is why after this post, I’m done discussing this with you. I told the guy I QUOTED to turn off nameplates because he was complaining about them… I’ve also explained why only 2 of the pets REALLY cause that much clutter and I even agreed to that.

As for minion damage, a FULL bar of minions maxed out for pure minion dps only does 50% of the damage that a SOLDIER necromancer does with a dagger (tested). Minions don’t scale with stats, thus a zerker necromancer can still out dps basically an entire set of his pets. And again, pets have a harder time making contact than a necromancer (controlled by a human) should, of course unless their bad, but if they’re that bad and you died, well… Get better. It’s a noob killer build, I’ve said that… who cares? Can’t balance around the terribles and decent players at the same time…

And I did explain the difference, you are just so into wanting to argue and cry about MMs, you won’t listen. MMs have more passive damage while they have to struggle with their defenses more actively (CCing, managing Life force, actually timing dodges since they’re less plentiful, and relying on accuracy for defenses even, when it comes to landing CCs, where as most defenses are activated and don’t require you to hit someone to be effective). While MM focus more on staying alive and controlling the enemy and (good mms) still focus on keeping damage pressure up all at once while watching the HPs of all pets and their placements/controlled status to make the best of their quirky AI, mms have PLENTY to watch for. You think people who PLAY MMs are somehow magically immune to clutter? Think about it. That sort of thing swings both ways. Oh AND we actually have to give a kitten about our clutty (ie, watching health of bone minions and blood fiend, and flesh wurm if used) so that we can ensure we get the best use out of them. I’m talking about GOOOD mms, not terrible people who play MM just to utterly destroy bad players… Yes its a good 1v1 build and VERY effective against bad players who don’t move around… I admit it. I don’t know how many times I can say that before it sinks in. I’m not defending that. YESS MINION MASTERS DESTROY BAD PLAYERS! <———————-
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

But play an MM in the top 10, and not just based on your stupid “paper math” and “paper theories”, actually do it, then come tell me how easy it is.

ronpierce.2760:

This is why after this post, I’m done discussing this with you. I told the guy I QUOTED to turn off nameplates because he was complaining about them… I’ve also explained why only 2 of the pets REALLY cause that much clutter and I even agreed to that.

As for minion damage, a FULL bar of minions maxed out for pure minion dps only does 50% of the damage that a SOLDIER necromancer does with a dagger (tested). Minions don’t scale with stats, thus a zerker necromancer can still out dps basically an entire set of his pets. And again, pets have a harder time making contact than a necromancer (controlled by a human) should, of course unless their bad, but if they’re that bad and you died, well… Get better. It’s a noob killer build, I’ve said that… who cares? Can’t balance around the terribles and decent players at the same time…

And I did explain the difference, you are just so into wanting to argue and cry about MMs, you won’t listen. MMs have more passive damage while they have to struggle with their defenses more actively (CCing, managing Life force, actually timing dodges since they’re less plentiful, and relying on accuracy for defenses even, when it comes to landing CCs, where as most defenses are activated and don’t require you to hit someone to be effective). While MM focus more on staying alive and controlling the enemy and (good mms) still focus on keeping damage pressure up all at once while watching the HPs of all pets and their placements/controlled status to make the best of their quirky AI, mms have PLENTY to watch for. You think people who PLAY MMs are somehow magically immune to clutter? Think about it. That sort of thing swings both ways. Oh AND we actually have to give a kitten about our clutty (ie, watching health of bone minions and blood fiend, and flesh wurm if used) so that we can ensure we get the best use out of them. I’m talking about GOOOD mms, not terrible people who play MM just to utterly destroy bad players… Yes its a good 1v1 build and VERY effective against bad players who don’t move around… I admit it. I don’t know how many times I can say that before it sinks in. I’m not defending that. YESS MINION MASTERS DESTROY BAD PLAYERS! <———————-
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But play an MM in the top 10, and not just based on your stupid “paper math” and “paper theories”, actually do it, then come tell me how easy it is.

Too biased to have a proper discussion with you.
L2P has always been the back-up argument of profession biased players when talking about balance.

LOL, was on engie, ran into a power necro that would go into a 30s Lich form w/ Blasts taking 4-5k dmg, and in order to stay on the point, I had to Shield 4, Shield 5, TK 4, and still had to LOS off point to survive.

Switched to my MM necro and he started raging and quit.

Went back to my engie, got raged at for playing a bunker engie and was told to die.

Also, most MM don’t run Blood Fiend and we often switch between Melandru for surv or Speed for mobility.

anet, can we just all get pet army and be done with it? or rather just sit afk and have game play for us… i mean that is obviously what you guys promote considering the latest addition to petting zoo

the problem with MM is not that if it is hard or not to kill but rather how little effort it takes to play it and how much effort enemy has to put to actually get point from MM necro