Guild Wars 2

Torment, that is, at least not thieves, whose only counter is trying to run away [in vain] from them. Specially those two, two of the strongest classes in the game.

Hint, staff ele are the joke of the game in PvP since you can LITERALLY walk out of most AOE before they go off or do more than 1 [weak] tick, they deserve it the most;

“Do I move and get torment, or do I stay and eat the AoE?” Either way you might finally put some pressure, at least you can clean torment, so it isnt completely uncouterable, I mean, unless we want to keep staff ele being a non-factor, it kinda sucks being that guy, the one pulling your team down; the one that cant heal (even engi, rangers and guardians who arent traited into it do better than us anyways, ever tried landing water #1?), cant deal damage (“let me walk it off, I dont even need to burn a dodge, LOL”), cant support (lots of fields, only 1 finisher, 2 if utility on it, which takes you melee, only good ones are water4 and air5, rest are a joke), cant pressure enemy, I mean do you even care they have close to no representation in PvP?!

Also, lets hope the “leaked” patch notes arent true, otherwise prepare for the kittenstorm, staff wasnt addressed at all, the only “change” was a 33% increase on lava font damage, which guess what; you can have an ability that insta-kill, that if it cant hit anything it is a good as kitten.

Hint; Reduce the activation time plus casting time, fix air#3, reduce fire #1 second casting, followed by slow projectile, and to top it off; can be side stepped. There is still time till then, please look at it again.

EDIT To the guy below me:

Archaon.6245:

Soooo…are you basically saying eles need buffs?

typical response of non-ele knowers, “eles are OP” yes, if you are D/D, but have you ever, really been scared of staff , i mean like REALLY? as scare of seeing a mesmer or a thief or a guardian or a warrior or an engi chargin are you, are you sure you have ever been scared of staff?

Here, let me answer that truthfully for you; – “No”

Im not saying ele need buff, im saying STAFF specifically needs buffs, so yes.

Soooo…are you basically saying eles need buffs?

I’d support an ele buff way before supportin thieves and mesmers getting this gift dropped in their laps.

Guild Wars 2 is an even bigger joke if Torment is given to Thieves and Mesmers.

Have ANY of you people read these leaked patch notes? It’s going to possibly be only on the mesmer’s scepter #2 (their counter) and the thief’s Skale Venom.

Archaon.6245:

Soooo…are you basically saying eles need buffs?

typical response of non-ele knowers, “eles are OP” yes, if you are D/D, but have you ever, really been scared of staff , i mean like REALLY? as scare of seeing a mesmer or a thief or a guardian or a warrior or an engi chargin are you, are you sure you have ever been scared of staff?

Here, let me answer that truthfully for you; – “No”

Im not saying ele need buff, im saying STAFF specifically needs buffs, so yes.

Fortus.6175:

Archaon.6245:

Soooo…are you basically saying eles need buffs?

typical response of non-ele knowers, “eles are OP” yes, if you are D/D, but have you ever, really been scared of staff , i mean like REALLY? as scare of seeing a mesmer or a thief or a guardian or a warrior or an engi chargin are you, are you sure you have ever been scared of staff?

Here, let me answer that truthfully for you; – “No”

Im not saying ele need buff, im saying STAFF specifically needs buffs, so yes.

Even if they give this stuff to staff skills i don’t really think d\d eles would drop a A+ tier build (Well let’s say not just only one since you can range from dps to tanky hybrid with many variations between) for just a condition, that, btw, is probably going to deal kitten dmg without condition dmg….that mesmers and thieves usually dont have…and anyway saying “Yes d\d is op but have you ever tried staff?” It’s like saying “Yes phanatasm mesmers with gs are op (Aswell as worthless in tourneys) but…have you ever tried scepter?” lol off course not…you already have a good build as it is, why do you want to play a crap one instead?

if the changes do actually turn out to be true then i’m going s/p venom share next patch

Archaon.6245:

Fortus.6175:

Archaon.6245:

Soooo…are you basically saying eles need buffs?

typical response of non-ele knowers, “eles are OP” yes, if you are D/D, but have you ever, really been scared of staff , i mean like REALLY? as scare of seeing a mesmer or a thief or a guardian or a warrior or an engi chargin are you, are you sure you have ever been scared of staff?

Here, let me answer that truthfully for you; – “No”

Im not saying ele need buff, im saying STAFF specifically needs buffs, so yes.

Even if they give this stuff to staff skills i don’t really think d\d eles would drop a A+ tier build (Well let’s say not just only one since you can range from dps to tanky hybrid with many variations between) for just a condition, that, btw, is probably going to deal kitten dmg without condition dmg….that mesmers and thieves usually dont have…and anyway saying “Yes d\d is op but have you ever tried staff?” It’s like saying “Yes phanatasm mesmers with gs are op (Aswell as worthless in tourneys) but…have you ever tried scepter?” lol off course not…if you have gs no reason to use scepter..

bad analogy, at least all the stuff you mentioned are relatively viable, staff is, by definition; one of the worst ele weapons in PvP (if somebody drops the WvW raiding mantra I swear I will throw a shoe at you…) next to focus, period.

Like I said, I dont give a rats shiny, stinky and hairy @$$ about D/D, as far as Im concerned that it is not my definition of a “mage”, all I want is staff finally being viable in a non-zerg enviroment

Mesmers and thieves don’t use condition builds. This will open new builds for them, not make existing builds stronger.

Weird how you’re talking about someone giving you a typical non-ele response when you’re entire thread implies you don’t play thief or Mesmer.
Hell I don’t play Mesmer but I remember when I did.
They don’t have a condition spec.
Thieves do not have a condition spec.
Which is quite peculiar considering the GW1 Mesmer and GW1 Assassin (Deadly arts/Critical Strikes) certainly did have Denial, attrition and pressure specs.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Mesmers and thieves don’t use condition builds. This will open new builds for them, not make existing builds stronger.

If you need conditions you are looking for engis and necros…running condition mesmers and thieves just because they gave them this torment stuff? Don’t think so, noone is going to drop a condition engi for a condition mesmer just because of torment…unless they are planning to totally change trait’s effects to make condition thieves and mesmers more viable\effective than actual necros and engis, and this is not gonna happen imo..but anyway, we’ll see soon…

ensoriki.5789:

Weird how you’re talking about someone giving you a typical non-ele response when you’re entire thread implies you don’t play thief or Mesmer.
Hell I don’t play Mesmer but I remember when I did.
They don’t have a condition spec.
Thieves do not have a condition spec.
Which is quite peculiar considering the GW1 Mesmer and GW1 Assassin (Deadly arts/Critical Strikes) certainly did have Denial, attrition and pressure specs.

I’m far more annoyed by their other buffs. I wanted Mesmer to be nerfed, due to their enormous team presence.

ensoriki.5789:

Thieves do not have a condition spec.

Yeah, neither do Guardians, or Eles (Have you ever seen a condition Guardian?). At least there are some P/D Thieves out there.

Also, the general question is that since these two classes are already dominating (albeit not with their condition builds), why is Anet going out of their way to make sure that they get more buffs, instead of fixing classes which actually need it?

I don’t see any reason for this buff. If it’s because Thieves and Mesmers don’t have viable condition builds, then why is the new condition not given to Eles and Guardians?

If it is because Thieves and Mesmers are terrible and need a buff somewhere, then that’s even more ridiculous. Surely you have seen the large number of Thief complaint threads?

RyuDragnier.9476:

Have ANY of you people read these leaked patch notes? It’s going to possibly be only on the mesmer’s scepter #2 (their counter) and the thief’s Skale Venom.

This. Context is everything and so many people on the forums are talking without having any of it.

Mesmer scepter is just about as bad as Ele staff is. I don’t know about Skale Venom since I’ve never played a Thief but I’ve never seen one running it before so I’m assuming it pretty bad too (And on a 45 sec cooldown so it’s not like they can stack it to a reasonable level).

Sunflowers.1729:

ensoriki.5789:

Thieves do not have a condition spec.

Yeah, neither do Guardians, or Eles (Have you ever seen a condition Guardian?). At least there are some P/D Thieves out there.

Also, the general question is that since these two classes are already dominating (albeit not with their condition builds), why is Anet going out of their way to make sure that they get more buffs, instead of fixing classes which actually need it?

I don’t see any reason for this buff. If it’s because Thieves and Mesmers don’t have viable condition builds, then why is the new condition not given to Eles and Guardians?

If it is because Thieves and Mesmers are terrible and need a buff somewhere, then that’s even more ridiculous. Surely you have seen the large number of Thief complaint threads?

^pretty much this.

Eles only have one build; D/D bunker, anything that deviates from that is bad, and yes, even scepter, the main strenght of scepter actually comes from the off hand dagger, scepter is there to set up the might stack and the dagger.

What I see happening is they’re going to be nerfing popular mesmer/thief builds a bit, and are trying to promote build diversity by buffing less popular weapon sets (possibly something like adding this torment condition to offhand torch for mesmer for example, something along these lines seems quite realistic)

Fortus.6175:

Archaon.6245:

Fortus.6175:

Archaon.6245:

Soooo…are you basically saying eles need buffs?

typical response of non-ele knowers, “eles are OP” yes, if you are D/D, but have you ever, really been scared of staff , i mean like REALLY? as scare of seeing a mesmer or a thief or a guardian or a warrior or an engi chargin are you, are you sure you have ever been scared of staff?

Here, let me answer that truthfully for you; – “No”

Im not saying ele need buff, im saying STAFF specifically needs buffs, so yes.

Even if they give this stuff to staff skills i don’t really think d\d eles would drop a A+ tier build (Well let’s say not just only one since you can range from dps to tanky hybrid with many variations between) for just a condition, that, btw, is probably going to deal kitten dmg without condition dmg….that mesmers and thieves usually dont have…and anyway saying “Yes d\d is op but have you ever tried staff?” It’s like saying “Yes phanatasm mesmers with gs are op (Aswell as worthless in tourneys) but…have you ever tried scepter?” lol off course not…if you have gs no reason to use scepter..

bad analogy, at least all the stuff you mentioned are relatively viable, staff is, by definition; one of the worst ele weapons in PvP (if somebody drops the WvW raiding mantra I swear I will throw a shoe at you…) next to focus, period.

Like I said, I dont give a rats shiny, stinky and hairy @$$ about D/D, as far as Im concerned that it is not my definition of a “mage”, all I want is staff finally being viable in a non-zerg enviroment

….pls…don’t bother to talk to this…whatever…
@Fortus you play an ele, one of the professions with the highest skill floor and you waste time arguing with somebody playing both entry level professions in this game – mesmer and thief?
Pls…dont

-edit- was just able to hold off 3 s/d spammers alongside a necro for god knows how long…managed to finish off one of them after several attempts as they were spamming shadow retreat, in the end we’ve got killed as we could never really catch those shadow retreat spammers on top of shadow refuge, thief is an idiotproof profession..anybody can use one and think to be a pro

Sunflowers.1729:

ensoriki.5789:

Thieves do not have a condition spec.

Yeah, neither do Guardians, or Eles (Have you ever seen a condition Guardian?). At least there are some P/D Thieves out there.

Also, the general question is that since these two classes are already dominating (albeit not with their condition builds), why is Anet going out of their way to make sure that they get more buffs, instead of fixing classes which actually need it?

I don’t see any reason for this buff. If it’s because Thieves and Mesmers don’t have viable condition builds, then why is the new condition not given to Eles and Guardians?

If it is because Thieves and Mesmers are terrible and need a buff somewhere, then that’s even more ridiculous. Surely you have seen the large number of Thief complaint threads?

I don’t think I’ve said anything against Guardian and Elementalist condi’s.
There is something wrong with this player base when things that aren’t being played are improved and people rage. Like improving the game is a problem.
When things that should be complained about “The lack of improvements” aren’t supposed to be criticized or “why are you even on this forum”.

How the hell can you say at this point fixes for other professions aren’t coming when they’ve blatently said they’ve been working on other professions.
Will they be enough? Who knows but I thing you’re conjuring delusions in order to suit your QQ.
There is a new condition, it’s not profession specific, 3 professions have it, Cry. Meh. Deh. River.

Anet on some level seems to care about class identity and so not everyone does the same things. My thief does not pop out confusion or burning, nice as it would be to do so. They seemingly feel this new condition fits the class identities of thief and Mesmer (and historically they do) in addition to the Necro so they got it as well. While simultaneously aiding in their current build deficits.

Anyways not sure why I’m having this conversation it’s completely juvenile
“W-why are they buffing underused specs!” Get real.

If Ranger spirits get buffed are we going to complain about Spirits getting buffed. Completely ridiculous.

As a thief all I know is that if these patch notes are real, the developers are either listening to the wrong people or just clueless. The long anticipated boon-hate mechanics for thieves took 3+ months to implement and they lasted all of 4 weeks, because there’s simply no way to keep playing S/D with the changes to Shadow Return and Larcenous.

But that’s not even the worst part. I can somehow understand a knee jerk reaction and nerfing S/D because of all the complaints, but how in the name of all that’s holy can you go and buff D/P like that.

And who thought that lowering Panic Strike’s ICD from 60 to 30 seconds was a good idea? Do you realize that this is a 5.2+ second immobilize on pretty much every single target that happens to drop below 50% (in reality targets will get immobilized when they are at maybe 30%, because it doesn’t trigger on the hit that takes them below 50%)? It was borderline overpowered with a 60s ICD and if anything I expected this to go up to 90 seconds some day, but I guess I was wrong.

Then they go and buff Signets of Power. Do I have to remind you guys over at Anet that just a few months ago you were trying to reduce the burst damage and now you are increasing it again? Furious Retaliation? You must be kidding. Pretty much every thief thought that a 10 second Fury on a kitten ICD was already quite strong for a tier 1 trait, yet here we are lowering the ICD to 30.

You are pushing people to play an all out glass cannon spec that, if it happens to fail to down somebody in a blink of an eye, it leaves the thief without any defenses.

I am wondering whether you guys want the forums to crash from all the “Backstab” rants.

The sky is falling….
They have increased the ini cost of larcenous strike by 1…I mean 1 freaking ini point more omfg..I hope my grandma ( who of course play thief) will be able to cope with this horrible change -_-

ensoriki.5789:

stuff

I’m just posting the general train of thought, no need to get all worked up over it.

Edit: And your argument about ‘class flavor’ is just nonsense. Warriors would fit well with this condition, they need it, but they aren’t getting it.

Arheundel.6451:

The sky is falling….
They have increased the ini cost of larcenous strike by 1…I mean 1 freaking ini point more omfg..I hope my grandma ( who of course play thief) will be able to cope with this horrible change -_-

Yes, why don’t we boost all of your cooldowns, too, given that thieves only have one CD pool? In fact, why don’t we take off insta-CDs from weapon swapping as well? Oh, and why don’t we screw over the majority of your weapon skills in the meantime, while making your good ones more expensive to use?

Arganthium.5638:

Arheundel.6451:

The sky is falling….
They have increased the ini cost of larcenous strike by 1…I mean 1 freaking ini point more omfg..I hope my grandma ( who of course play thief) will be able to cope with this horrible change -_-

Yes, why don’t we boost all of your cooldowns, too, given that thieves only have one CD pool? In fact, why don’t we take off insta-CDs from weapon swapping as well? Oh, and why don’t we screw over the majority of your weapon skills in the meantime, while making your good ones more expensive to use?

It’s cray, but don’t take those patched notes srs.

ensoriki.5789:

Sunflowers.1729:

ensoriki.5789:

Thieves do not have a condition spec.

Yeah, neither do Guardians, or Eles (Have you ever seen a condition Guardian?). At least there are some P/D Thieves out there.

Also, the general question is that since these two classes are already dominating (albeit not with their condition builds), why is Anet going out of their way to make sure that they get more buffs, instead of fixing classes which actually need it?

I don’t see any reason for this buff. If it’s because Thieves and Mesmers don’t have viable condition builds, then why is the new condition not given to Eles and Guardians?

If it is because Thieves and Mesmers are terrible and need a buff somewhere, then that’s even more ridiculous. Surely you have seen the large number of Thief complaint threads?

I don’t think I’ve said anything against Guardian and Elementalist condi’s.
There is something wrong with this player base when things that aren’t being played are improved and people rage. Like improving the game is a problem.
When things that should be complained about “The lack of improvements” aren’t supposed to be criticized or “why are you even on this forum”.

How the hell can you say at this point fixes for other professions aren’t coming when they’ve blatently said they’ve been working on other professions.
Will they be enough? Who knows but I thing you’re conjuring delusions in order to suit your QQ.
There is a new condition, it’s not profession specific, 3 professions have it, Cry. Meh. Deh. River.

Anet on some level seems to care about class identity and so not everyone does the same things. My thief does not pop out confusion or burning, nice as it would be to do so. They seemingly feel this new condition fits the class identities of thief and Mesmer (and historically they do) in addition to the Necro so they got it as well. While simultaneously aiding in their current build deficits.

Anyways not sure why I’m having this conversation it’s completely juvenile
“W-why are they buffing underused specs!” Get real.

If Ranger spirits get buffed are we going to complain about Spirits getting buffed. Completely ridiculous.

The buff to Mesmer scepter 2 might cause more condition mesmers to come out… Currently how many mesmers run scepter in pvp? Hm? Even pseudo-condi mesmers use sword over scepter and since its supposed to be our “condition” weapon… you would think people could understand why Anet is buffing it. It is still not going to be that great of a weapon considering that the wind up on skill 3 is just WAYYY to long to be meaningful. And thieves get torment on a venom… Not that big of a deal honestly. When was the last time in pvp you saw a thief with skale venom and thought “Awww crap i’m screwed” Noone worries about weakness in pvp and with the only few skills getting torment it won’t blow the meta up and screw everything over.

Just throwing in my 2cents. But ensoriki is right. This should help build diversity because currently thieves have power/bs and or ls builds. And mesmers have shatter and…. to be viable in pvp. Not a single Mesmer condi build is currently on par with a necro/engi/ even warrior condi build. (yes there are bleed warriors out there. And they scary)

Quick question to the pro staff ele getting buffs crowd….I’m legitimately curious. Is staff more condition based or power based? I was under the impress power based. As such this condition will do sweet kitten all for a staff ele. The damage will be negligent enough to easily opt to run out of AoE than have to seriously consider the option of avoiding a kitten weak condition.

Archaon.6245:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Mesmers and thieves don’t use condition builds. This will open new builds for them, not make existing builds stronger.

If you need conditions you are looking for engis and necros…running condition mesmers and thieves just because they gave them this torment stuff? Don’t think so, noone is going to drop a condition engi for a condition mesmer just because of torment…unless they are planning to totally change trait’s effects to make condition thieves and mesmers more viable\effective than actual necros and engis, and this is not gonna happen imo..but anyway, we’ll see soon…

They are trying to make new builds viable. Stop whining about it. It doesnt happen overnight either. jesus. Doesnt really matter that thieves and mesmers get it, they have to start somewhere because you know everybody has like 1 build only. And imo it makes sense for thieves to have this torment, mesmers not so much but they probably need it because their conditions are just that bad (have not played condi mesmer so personally dont know). Might be related to the gutting of Confusion.

personally i see warriors beeing the free kills in pvp, they barely do anything before they are taken down, the survivability of mersmers and rangers for example are way to high despite the dmg a warior can do which is mostly done only if warrior is face to face kissing the other players…so yeah most powerfull classes in pvp got buffed,,,yipidee duu daah

ensoriki.5789:

Anet on some level seems to care about class identity and so not everyone does the same things. My thief does not pop out confusion or burning, nice as it would be to do so. They seemingly feel this new condition fits the class identities of thief and Mesmer (and historically they do) in addition to the Necro so they got it as well. While simultaneously aiding in their current build deficits.

I think you’ve touched up on something very important.

People often forget that Anet created all these professions, and with the rich Lore behind GW 2 consider this.

When a reader reads a book, they will support the characters they like the most, when an author creates a book, he will love all characters because they are all his creations, even the bad ones, a good author will try to give them a depth and motivation so their situation is understandable if not easy to relate to (sort of like a problem child a parent can’t hate).

I think you hit the nail on the head, why on earth would Anet, the creator of all these classes, who has ultimately tried their best to flesh them out and keep them even+equal while trying to make them unique (harder than you think), not feel 100% more passionate about each class than a player who decides to pick one or two favourites and only support their own.

It is fine to make suggestions, but in general I find players thinking they care more about their professions than Anet does, which has to be silly. (Ele forums all over again).

Anyway its not really on topic but I just thought you made a nice observation that must be considered in general in a lot of these threads.

Anet likes Mesmers and Thieves, but Anet also likes Ele’s, Anet ‘gave birth’ to both, and is trying their best to make all 3 the same, and yet unique, this is very difficult.

Arheundel.6451:

you play an ele, one of the professions with the highest skill floor and you waste time arguing with somebody playing both entry level professions in this game – mesmer and thief?
Pls…dont

Said the ele to the other ele…

You’re really convinced your class requires so much skills compared to others, aren’t you?

GankSinatra.2653:

Archaon.6245:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Mesmers and thieves don’t use condition builds. This will open new builds for them, not make existing builds stronger.

If you need conditions you are looking for engis and necros…running condition mesmers and thieves just because they gave them this torment stuff? Don’t think so, noone is going to drop a condition engi for a condition mesmer just because of torment…unless they are planning to totally change trait’s effects to make condition thieves and mesmers more viable\effective than actual necros and engis, and this is not gonna happen imo..but anyway, we’ll see soon…

They are trying to make new builds viable. Stop whining about it. It doesnt happen overnight either. jesus. Doesnt really matter that thieves and mesmers get it, they have to start somewhere because you know everybody has like 1 build only. And imo it makes sense for thieves to have this torment, mesmers not so much but they probably need it because their conditions are just that bad (have not played condi mesmer so personally dont know). Might be related to the gutting of Confusion.

I’m simply saying that thieves and mesmers are probably not going to change build just because they gave them a new condition, there are way better classes with way better specs for condition damage, thieves (Even more after caltrops nerf) and mesmers in tpvp are made for dps…and this is not gonna change because of torment…

Of course they got the new condition. We wouldn’t want the id iot demographic to leave the game or feel like they actually have to try in pvp. Thieves and mesmers are already such monumental failures of pvp class design it’s simply mind boggling. So why stop now?

Sweetbread.2679:

Of course they got the new condition. We wouldn’t want the id iot demographic to leave the game or feel like they actually have to try in pvp. Thieves and mesmers are already such monumental failures of pvp class design it’s simply mind boggling. So why stop now?

Monumental failures of pvp class design. I can’t help it. I want to give you all my gold!

Imo it’s ok that staff eles didn’t get Torment.

I’m pretty sure this won’t make condition builds the new meta which means in the end nothing will change. If it helps thiefs and mesmers so what? I don’t really mind if other professions are being improved.

Here is the good thing for staff eles though:

Since we didn’t get any real improvement there are still a lot of reasons to complain. If staff would have this new “OP” condition there would be no reason for Anet to improve the staff anymore since we already got a buff. I know it will probably take another few months until Anet is willing to do something about it but it’s still better than nothing.

In the end it sucks that there was no big change since release but I prefer a real buff instead of a new condition which doesn’t solve any of the old problems.

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Art imitating life?

Anet is just implementing a new condition. That’s not necessarily a buff, it’s just the new shiny thing. Looking at it as if it will be a straight buff is wrong.
Especially since this condition will only deal damage. It will be another deal, if it will be comparable to immobilize and chill. From what we know, it isn’t. If it would completely shut down all movement, the damage would just be overpowered and if you take a look at confusion, that’s easily fixed.
You have to compare it with burning and confusion. That means the impact of this new implementation comes from it being an additional condition to be cleansed. My problem is that a Mesmer can already apply a relative wide variety of conditions. Necros and Thiefs have to rely on stacking bleeds for the most part. I guess that’s also the reason why Necros will get burning. In this case the classes don’t get a straight up damage buff, but only get more diverse. In Mesmers case not so much.
In the end torment won’t be a huge impact, as it isn’t a straight buff, it is just an increase in diversity, so why not give it to classes it fits best lore wise?

On a less serious note: In my opinion it will be more fun to be the one that get’s torment applied, rather than being the one that apllies it. You apply it with just a button press, but the one the gets it applied has to try to negate it, or it’s damage in different ways.