Guild Wars 2

I thought a quick summary of my experience might highlight issues with the game and leaderboards. I’ve played around 2000 tPvP matches (Solo Q and Team Q combined) exclusively. When Solo Q first started, I decided to test as many extreme builds and found myself in the bottom 20%. Before then, I was consistently a top 500 Team Q player.

Observations:

• I rollercoastered between 35% to 75% for a long time, feeling unable to affect the outcome of matches even when I was playing my best . The usual culprit? This range is filled with 4v5s and games with one or two bad teammates. My guess is bad teammates are often a result of new players starting at 50% and/or getting a lucky start. Conquer mode and current game balance are such that unfavorable odds are extremely difficult to surmount. This range has high volatility and gravity towards the center of the bell curve, and unfortunately, it’s mostly artificial due to 4v5s. Once you reach certain rating %s, the outcome is decidedly more deterministic.

• Tweener builds don’t really cut it in Solo Q format, because they take more coordination. If you want to affect the outcome in a game with strangers, you either run faceroll glass or bunker.

• Matchmaking at the top is broken. The best 5 will get matched against 5 scrubs for the majority of matches. I’m pretty sure everyone in the top 200 knows this as fact. Consider that when I hit <500, my win % was somewhere around 53%. My win % is now 60%… this is with hundreds of games weighted against my win%! I didn’t get better; the matchmaking system gave me easier matchups.

• Players don’t start to get “good” until the top 200 (consider how many of these are dual or inactive accounts). I say this as objectively as possible and trying not to be elitist. This is just an unfortunate reality of the state of PvP atm. Matches at rating >500 still regularly have both teams ignoring Stillness at 11:30, both Tranq and Still at 8:30, getting Svanir kill-stolen in the beginning, or still unsure about how to efficiently stomp classes. This unfortunate reality is also why 95% of forum posts are noise.

• As a corollary to the above points, Solo Q is much less frustrating after passing certain %s (I also suspect that there are certain “bad matchup” boundaries one has to pass to get bumped up to the next deviation group).

• There are clearly better times to play if you want favorable matchups. Matches in early mornings or late nights have a high % of being 5 top vs. 5 scrubs due to the small PvP population.

• Queue times for me are now 7-10 min, likely either because of my rating or the population. [edit to add this bullet]

I guess my concluding statement is, “How can this not be a frustrating experience for the majority of players?”

Please read my former thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Open-Alpha-Dishonor-Math-Leaderboard-Rtngs/ (thumbs up to testing grounds, but unsure why other simpler fixes are taking so long)

Similar experiences here, although I don’t think I’ve ever fallen out of top 500, since I had a lucky initial run with no leavers that I can recall, so I can’t comment on that.

The only point I would disagree with is “tweener” builds, if you’re referring to hybrids. I think you’ll find that most of the (active) top 100 is filled with moderate survivability/moderate damage builds. Only thieves are really getting away with glassy builds, mesmers to a lesser extent, and the reasons for that should be fairly obvious. This is NA though, I have no idea what’s going on in EU.

The rest I agree with, and some of it is fairly problematic. Matchmaking in particular needs a fix pretty soon. There’s actually no way I’m a top 50 player. The matchmaking system has carried me there by matching me with excellent players against players who are decent but will never have a shot against the kind of stacked teams you get pretty regularly.

Mathematically it makes sense of course, because if you do manage to lose when you’re favoured you get an appropriate rating loss, and an appropriately small gain for winning, but it still seems off somehow. I just don’t know enough about the math to figure out if there’s a flaw in it somewhere.

My solo Q experience pretty much echoes the OP’s. At worst, I’ve been at 55%, at best in the 300s. Last I checked I was in the 800s (EU).

One thing I would add is that low population seems to compound all of the bad aspects of the current match making. For example, if you get placed in the lower ranked team against the team that is stacked, prepare to lose several games in a row. Since there is no shuffling (rudimentary feature incoming next month, maybe), you get teamed with the same people over and over again. Good times.

It’s best just to ignore the leaderboard and play troll builds for funzies. In its current state the solo Q leaderboard is absolutely meaningless.

Aereniel.7356:

It’s best just to ignore the leaderboard and play troll builds for funzies. In its current state the solo Q leaderboard is absolutely meaningless.

This.

Pretty much everything the OP said is true.

However. I noticed solo-q on EU is better than NA; faster Q times too. They communicate more and have better etiquette. Not saying there isn’t any 4v5 or leavers etc, but overall it is better probably due to a larger player base.

I had exact same experince. Went 1-21 in one day. From 95% to 55%
Note: old system

Rollercoaster started with 8x consecutive 5v4 on my side . Mathematicaly very small chance. Then some unlucky close loses (tempel buffs) and finaly some teammates, who arent leavers, but play just as bad.

My results / experiences:

95% -My normal max. For solo player it was hard to get above this, since here you would start hitting premades.

80% – My normal min. I would reach it when playing funzies builds.

70% – One r9 player , amongst 30-40s… Or just who doesnt know the basic rules, leaving home, attacking far , basicaly hotjoin zerger mentality
Which ever teams gets this player, will lose.

60% – 3x players on each team are like the one above, playing hotjoin free-for-all instead of conquest.

50% – All players are like that, rank15 max. Theyre also all glass canons with mostly no stunbreaks.

Like OP sad, if you find yourself under 70% , DO NOT play any support, since theyre not worth rezzing, just play glass yourself and win 2v1 on far, 10x times in a row. Then you should be back in normal %. Take it slow and steady from there.

Flumek.9043:

I had exact same experince. Went 1-21 in one day. From 95% to 55%
Note: old system

Rollercoaster started with 8x consecutive 5v4 on my side . Mathematicaly very small chance. Then some unlucky close loses (tempel buffs) and finaly some teammates, who arent leavers, but play just as bad.
…

70% – One r9 player , amongst 30-40s… Or just who doesnt know the basic rules, leaving home, attacking far , basicaly hotjoin zerger mentality
Which ever teams gets this player, will lose.

60% – 3x players on each team are like the one above, playing hotjoin free-for-all instead of conquest.

50% – All players are like that, rank15 max. Theyre also all glass canons with mostly no stunbreaks.
…

Thanks for adding your experience; I think the experiences are congruous throughout the community and more people chiming in helps. To me, the obvious issue here is that new players are entered near the middle of the leaderboard (50%) rather than having to work their way up. This is clearly bad and makes games a dice roll of “who gets the nub” for anyone in this range.

I also experienced some of the same things. A couple of thoughts:

—The absolute bottom of most leaderboards (let’s say 15%) will usually be inactive players. Even if every inactive player were wiped from the leaderboard every month, there would still be a section at the bottom of people with like 2 wins and 14 losses that just keep sinking due to decay. No one can fall lower than them. So I’m not sure it’s a great idea to start new players at 0%, since that would likely be skewed (since the “real” bottom is 15%, not 0%). Maybe Anet could run some numbers and find a better starting rating for new players.

—The devs are aware that matchmaking isn’t working correctly and are testing new models. I’m as ready for it to get fixed as anyone.

—You can carry bad teammates with a variety of builds. I’ve learned to expect that if you don’t do something, it won’t get done. If you aren’t in a teamfight, your team will lose it. If you’re not at tranquility, your team won’t get it. If you don’t keep an eye on home, no one will.

Ive had a very similar experience. I fluctuate between top 100 to top 500. I dont usually fall below top 500 but every single time I get in the top 300, I always find myself up against 4 or 5 top 25 players and on occasion one random with 4 of them, while everyone on my team is in the 200-500 rating. Now the other issue is a lot of the time my teammates are top 200 BUT they only have 20 or so games played and just got a few lucky wins, so they still arent experienced and dont rotate properly.

Im pretty sure its impossible to get out of the top 200 unless you got extremely lucky with a couple match ups.

I don’t even bother trying to play solo queue anymore. I think I am sitting around 40% at the moment after not touching it since a couple weeks after it came out. As soon as I figured out how skewed and flawed the matchmaking was I had no desire to try anymore. As a “solo queue” player in team arena I was at 95% (for some reason I feel like it was 98% but maybe they didn’t go that high, can’t remember), currently at 70% as I haven’t touched team arena in even longer. I always queued solo in tpvp.

Of course, when I mentioned this to a solo queue person in the top 500 they just told me I got carried in team arena and that is the reason for the discrepancy. Not at all, it is that I didn’t get matched up with horrid players that drug me down to their level.

Well on the hand, it isnt hard to get back. You can totaly carry the games with new players, in my case i think i got back in about 3-5 gaming days. You just need to adjust your build on the way. Either bunker 1v2 far for whole game or go glassy killing whole teams.

The bad thing is that those lower rank matches, i havent found any fun in them. It was very frustrating losing (at 80%s) because 1 teammate didnt do/knew his job. When you play some funzies, you then have to almost kinda grind your way back to higher ranks, where you can find the pleasure of the challenge

Flumek.9043:

Well on the hand, it isnt hard to get back. You can totaly carry the games with new players, in my case i think i got back in about 3-5 gaming days. You just need to adjust your build on the way. Either bunker 1v2 far for whole game or go glassy killing whole teams.

The bad thing is that those lower rank matches, i havent found any fun in them. It was very frustrating losing (at 80%s) because 1 teammate didnt do/knew his job. When you play some funzies, you then have to almost kinda grind your way back to higher ranks, where you can find the pleasure of the challenge

The only way to can carry a whole team is if you are one of the OP classes: warrior or necro. Otherwise, I’ve never seen someone good enough to carry a team.

style.6173:

Flumek.9043:

Well on the hand, it isnt hard to get back. You can totaly carry the games with new players, in my case i think i got back in about 3-5 gaming days. You just need to adjust your build on the way. Either bunker 1v2 far for whole game or go glassy killing whole teams.

The bad thing is that those lower rank matches, i havent found any fun in them. It was very frustrating losing (at 80%s) because 1 teammate didnt do/knew his job. When you play some funzies, you then have to almost kinda grind your way back to higher ranks, where you can find the pleasure of the challenge

The only way to can carry a whole team is if you are one of the OP classes: warrior or necro. Otherwise, I’ve never seen someone good enough to carry a team.

A bunker guard mid or a particularly talented home point bunker ele are usually enough to give your team the game.

Amazing thread! This is exactly my whole experience in Solo queue!(Except I was from 35% to 400s) I thought I was the only one who’s experiencing this. I noticed below rank 1000, matches are full of frustrating 4v5s, easy wins and easy losses. At top 1000, matches are getting better, less leavers, less 4v5s. At around rank 500, even harder matches coz of the “5 best vs. 5 worst” matchmaking. Sometimes I’d be one of the “best” team, sometimes Id be in the “worst” team. When I’m in the “best” team, chances of winning are higher of course. And when I’m in the “worst” team, chances of losing are higher but there are also a few times that we won against the “best” team, but it is always hard-won(with sweat and blood lol)

I hope ANet fix matchmaking ASAP. I dont get it why they did it this way. Why have the best fight against the worst? Just doesnt make sense.

Thanks for posting this btw. Totally an eye-opener.

style.6173:

Flumek.9043:

Well on the hand, it isnt hard to get back. You can totaly carry the games with new players, in my case i think i got back in about 3-5 gaming days. You just need to adjust your build on the way. Either bunker 1v2 far for whole game or go glassy killing whole teams.

The bad thing is that those lower rank matches, i havent found any fun in them. It was very frustrating losing (at 80%s) because 1 teammate didnt do/knew his job. When you play some funzies, you then have to almost kinda grind your way back to higher ranks, where you can find the pleasure of the challenge

The only way to can carry a whole team is if you are one of the OP classes: warrior or necro. Otherwise, I’ve never seen someone good enough to carry a team.

Long time ago as an engi bunker I managed to do this, but only because enemy team was fooled and tried to take me down 2v1 the whole match on a contested point. If such a thing happens, your team is likely to win, because you drained numbers from your enemy.

IMHO, this only works if 2 or more players on the enemy team overreact.

Aereniel.7356:

It’s best just to ignore the leaderboard and play troll builds for funzies. In its current state the solo Q leaderboard is absolutely meaningless.

Couldn’t agree more. While I have never been in the top ranks (and likely never will be), I had gotten my rating up to 70%, then had a string of 4v5 losses, and now I am back in scrub-land with extremely un-fun games. The majority of games someone leaves on either side, making the outcome moot. Such games should not influence standing as they currently do.

The really fun games where the result is tightly fought over are very few and far between, especially with people leaving as soon as their side seems to not win easily. Dishonored doesn’t do anything in its current incarnation, possibly because it isn’t communicated clearly enough to players that there is a penalty for leaving and what it does (and when you get it).

Overall extremely disappointing.

I was never sure why the solo tournament queue was 5v5, anyway.

We know these maps were not designed for 5v5, and when you join the solo queue you are not looking for a group vs group experience.

I guess it’s a vestige of the classes supposedly being “balanced” around 5v5 as a base point…. but there’s already a place for 5v5 AND the maps aren’t designed for it AND it is almost always one-sided when even 1 person doesn’t show up….

Yup. I had streaks of over 10 consecutive matches I had to play 4v5.

I started to believe that some players where leaving on purpose to let their friends win. Didn’t they add dishonorable? Is it working? I asked myself.

Just in case you don’t know: The leaderboards are broken, but A-Net refuses to admit it. The reason why MMR is so epicly bad and why in every group is an afk/leaver. So much time spent on a feature that isn’t even working.
/Facepalm at how many times they said: “we need more time to make sure when we release this stuff it will work correct”. Great job on that, really.

This is a great thread. I play a lot of solo too much really for my sanity. Lately, I have been doing really poorly to the point where I don’t even look at my percentages anymore. All these quirks mentioned do exist. I will try some of the strategies mentioned though it rings true with glass cannon builds you can pew pew weaker players pretty easily. Most could probably be downed in a few seconds of well time burst. I disagree about the bunker route though at lower of levels of play I have bunkered 2+ for a couple of minutes many times but we really made up little to no ground anywhere else because there is a real lack of understanding about conquest mechanics the lower you get in the ratings.

My experience after going up to >top 500 is completely opposite.

Unless you play at prime time ( something very hard for me since i have training sessions during it) and even around 22:00 – 23:00 pm ( that should be late prime time after all) i will get matched with scrubbity scrubs having literally no idea what they’re doing.

Both in the opposite and my team.

Very often among 10 players i was the only one ranked, and a single loss could drop my rank by 70-80 positions.

The point is that “at the top” ( at least here in EU) very few dare to play, because no one really cares ( dunno why -.-‘’’) and climbing the ladder is ridicolously hard unless you get a good lucky winning streak ( since you earn little when you win and lose a lot when you lose the match).

Overall solo queing is a terrible experience for both ranked players and casuals.

Sidenote: i’m currently around 300 with a 70% win ratio. This explains it all.

Mrbig.8019:

Unless you play at prime time ( something very hard for me since i have training sessions during it) and even around 22:00 – 23:00 pm ( that should be late prime time after all) i will get matched with scrubbity scrubs having literally no idea what they’re doing. Both in the opposite and my team.

Yep, this happens. The reason is that the algorithm thinks one high-MMR player (you) plus four non-rated players equals a balanced team. At the same time, the opposite team might get three or four moderately ranked players plus one total scrub, which, again, is balanced as far as math goes. Guess who wins when the game type is conquest?

No, I really don’t know how this matchmaking ever made it to live. I guess it works fine in a perfect world where no one ever drops queue or AFKs and there is a pool of millions to draw from.

Mrbig.8019:

My experience after going up to >top 500 is completely opposite.
…

Actually, it sounds like your experience is synonymous with my experience and others. Players don’t get good til you hit even higher ranks, and then you have to deal with stacked team vs. unstacked :P.

All the posts and bumps are great, because it shows how congruent community experiences are. I think ANet has unfortunately shown that their testing doesn’t lead to the desired results and that they have an issue recognizing a player’s frustrations in a typical gaming session. The more people chiming in and sharing their experiences, the more we can hope ANet doesn’t miss the boat in the next closed fix.