Well no…that might be true for someone sitting around 500 or if you just soloq…if you have a good team and you aim at high ladder 50% ratio is actually pretty bad (That makes you an average team but for sure not a top 100 one)
Not if we’re matching you against other full rosters with similar skill, which is our goal.
Rank 1: 67 wins, 72 losses, total games = 139
higher than
Rank 8: 38 wins, 8 losses, total games = 46
sounds good and fair to you guys…i really dunno what to say anymore
Rank 1 could be solo and have really accurate matchmaking, giving them better quality matches. Rank 8 could be always going with a full roster and face-rolling due to an inaccurate MMR that is still in the process of stablizing.
If you think win/loss ratio is the metric we should be watching, then I know what to say. You’re wrong.
Win/loss ratio is only a valid metric for skill when the number of participants are low, and each participant players ever other participant a fairly equal number of times. This is not the case with nearly every online game, and is not the case with GW2.
Server Programmer (sPvP)
Isle of Janthir: Flux, Latch, Aegir
Well no…that might be true for someone sitting around 500 or if you just soloq…if you have a good team and you aim at high ladder 50% ratio is actually pretty bad (That makes you an average team but for sure not a top 100 one)
Not if we’re matching you against other full rosters with similar skill, which is our goal.
Rank 1: 67 wins, 72 losses, total games = 139
higher than
Rank 8: 38 wins, 8 losses, total games = 46
sounds good and fair to you guys…i really dunno what to say anymore
Rank 1 could be solo and have really accurate matchmaking, giving them better quality matches. Rank 8 could be always going with a full roster and face-rolling due to an inaccurate MMR that is still in the process of stablizing.
If you think win/loss ratio is the metric we should be watching, then I know what to say. You’re wrong.
I am willing to bet you 1000g that I am better than 24/25 of the people on the front page, and another 1000g there are 25 better than me that arent there
I am willing to bet you 1000g that I am better than 24/25 of the people on the front page, and another 1000g there are 25 better than me that arent there
I believe you. Seeing as we haven’t officially started the season and 0 people before today were taking it seriously, I think its fair to assume the end of season ladder will not look like this one.
Server Programmer (sPvP)
Isle of Janthir: Flux, Latch, Aegir
Not if we’re matching you against other full rosters with similar skill, which is our goal.
Justin…come on, teams always used to qdodge each other do you really think that everyone is just mindlessly going to que up while a potentially better team is in que? Over a certain level you know each other …ppl asking if your team is in que or not, whispering other teams if you stop going so they can safely que up… What you said is probably gonna work on mid ladder i guess, where ppl just randomly go in, but the higher it gets the more ppl start working on their ladder even when they’re sitting in HoM
And just an example….let’s say CM getting on top again, if winning against worse ppl is giving you nothing how are they supposed to stay on top then? And what about teams that (For some reason) can’t que at night when top teams are around…they will never be able to get somewhere even winning everything they get.
Going for 3 matches/week with decay resetting while winning vs scrubs during odd times was bad for sure…but this system is not gonna be any better
You should promote winning vs better teams AND win/loss ratio not just one of them otherwise this is just gonna be broken as before if not worse
I’m ready to bet that in the final top100 there will be people with a really bad win ratio and a huge amount of matches played.
I don’t think this will happen, but if it does happen we can change the table so losing always takes away points. It’s only the narrow losses, or going up against a higher MMR and doing OK, that will let you stay neutral after a loss.
Server Programmer (sPvP)
Isle of Janthir: Flux, Latch, Aegir
I just want to chime in that a lot of us seem to forget that you can get up to +2 points even if you are losing. (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/finding-the-perfect-match/) It happens when you have a close match against much tougher opponent (possibly premade team).
As Justin has pointed out, your points, total games and average points per game regardless of winning or losing matter. It comes to my understanding that your total point, albeit benefiting from grinding more games, decides your relative position on the LB. However if you are more skilled, you can still reach higher points with less total games. The higher number of games is, the better the estimation of your skill level (per statistics rationale). Last but not least, if you are skilled and have a good MMR, it is expected that your average point per game is in between 0 and 0.5.
“Raids are like fortune cookies. You eat the cookie and then read the paper scraps.”
I’m ready to bet that in the final top100 there will be people with a really bad win ratio and a huge amount of matches played.
I don’t think this will happen, but if it does happen we can change the table so losing always takes away points. It’s only the narrow losses, or going up against a higher MMR and doing OK, that will let you stay neutral after a loss.
I want to be more specific, at the end of the season, we will see people with win/ratio > 0.6 but not many matches played be below people who have 0.4-0.5 with a TON of matches played.
And i think it’s not totally fair.
Of course i’m not talking ratio 0.6 with 50 matches but 0.6 with like 500 matches. But i bet top leaderboard will have thousands of matches played at the end of the season (1 month)
I agree, plus it like the other said being a test phase. Let the man observe, tweak and finish his product. As for grinding games, keep in mind the more you play the better you will become. The force has spoken.
I just want to chime in that a lot of us seem to forget that you can get up to +2 points even if you are losing. (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/finding-the-perfect-match/) It happens when you have a close match against much tougher opponent (possibly premade team).
As Justin has pointed out, your points, total games and average points per game regardless of winning or losing matter. It comes to my understanding that your total point, albeit benefiting from grinding more games, decides your relative position on the LB. However if you are more skilled, you can still reach higher points with less total games. The higher number of games is, the better the estimation of your skill level (per statistics rationale). Last but not least, if you are skilled and have a good MMR, it is expected that your average point per game is in between 0 and 0.5.
With this system nobody is going to give a kitten who’s ranked 1— everyone will just be looking at the best win/loss ratio with a decent amount of games.
Its basically pointless now and just something you have to farm if you really care about it.
In my opinion, the leaderboards should still be separate into Solo and Teams and look at your win rate for the past 100 games you’ve played. Or a set amount of time above a certain amount of games (past 2 weeks but you need over 20 games). Something more polished.
This is like starcraft 2 leaderboards. You just have to play a lot of games and keep getting more points than the people above you.
It’s interesting to see people say the leaderboard must be a grind because it’s based on points. Isn’t MMR based on points?
No. MMR becomes more stable and accurate with more games, but there can be two players with equal number of games, even an equal number of wins and losses, that have very different MMR.
Server Programmer (sPvP)
Isle of Janthir: Flux, Latch, Aegir
Question: If someone starts the season with a high MMR, and only gets matched with similarly rated or lower-rated people, giving him a 40 to 100 percent of chance of winning, does that mean he’ll have to grind a lot of one-point games to get to the top of the ladder, even though his MMR is so high?
Possibly, if matchmaking was ideal. Ugg, I’d really hate to argue that matchmaking not being perfect was a positive thing. :P
If the beta ladder does show that sort of behavior, what would you guys like to see? The number of points adjusted by the rating relative to the default rating, instead of just relative to the players in the game?
Server Programmer (sPvP)
Isle of Janthir: Flux, Latch, Aegir
The leaderboards SHOULD be a grind. It SHOULD be a mix of skill and playing alot. Otherwise you get a stagnant community where people only play with their “full” teams and stomp people. And afkers will win the leaderboards. This game will be so healthy if the leaderboards are a bit of a grind. They have tournaments for full teams to lame it up and win something. Leaderboards should primarily be designed to encourage participation.
So I hope these leaderboards are a sign of things to come.
Character: Henry rank million/Duke Henry
Necromancer/Casual Warrior
[Team] Best WvW guild of all time. EASILY.
Look at the top 2 in NA, both with 58 points as of writing this..
First place:
58 points with 65 wins, 75 loses. That’s ~0.43 points per game.
Second place:
58 points with 63 wins, 51 loses. That’s ~.51 points per game.
That .43 vs .51 is the difference between narrower losses, and winning against tougher opponents. That’s where the skill comes in.
Yes, someone with .5 points per game will be higher than other players with .5 points per game the more they play, but someone with a higher point per game stat will need fewer games to get the same number of points.
Addendum:
Yes number of games also matters. We want the players that play more to be higher on the ladder than similarly skilled players who play less. We also want less skilled players to have a chance as well.
This last part is vital to the games success. I posted this many times over the last year on the forums. Please don’t sacrifice this ideal because it is so important. Some people will QQ about it. But they have vested interests. It is so important that less skilled people who play alot are rewarded.
Character: Henry rank million/Duke Henry
Necromancer/Casual Warrior
[Team] Best WvW guild of all time. EASILY.
This last part is vital to the games success. I posted this many times over the last year on the forums. Please don’t sacrifice this ideal because it is so important. Some people will QQ about it. But they have vested interests. It is so important that less skilled people who play alot are rewarded.
I think what people might be forgetting, is that we also have tournaments, ESL cups, etc. to cater to those who want skill to be the absolute determinant.
Server Programmer (sPvP)
Isle of Janthir: Flux, Latch, Aegir
The leaderboards SHOULD be a grind. It SHOULD be a mix of skill and playing alot. Otherwise you get a stagnant community where people only play with their “full” teams and stomp people. And afkers will win the leaderboards. This game will be so healthy if the leaderboards are a bit of a grind. They have tournaments for full teams to lame it up and win something. Leaderboards should primarily be designed to encourage participation.
So I hope these leaderboards are a sign of things to come.
This last part is vital to the games success. I posted this many times over the last year on the forums. Please don’t sacrifice this ideal because it is so important. Some people will QQ about it. But they have vested interests. It is so important that less skilled people who play alot are rewarded.
I think what people might be forgetting, is that we also have tournaments, ESL cups, etc. to cater to those who want skill to be the absolute determinant.
Don’t worry about naysayers, current system is perfect ( on paper).
But you really have to fix the " u can’t do kitten while you’re in queue" issue.
It’s like the most kittening thing ever, even more than “q pop screen” popping every kittening 2 secs while we’re dueling.
You don’t understand how that player could actually be the best, eh?
You should read up on how GW2 rates skill.
You see, it’s a team game. The top players are the best team players.
He is so good that he improved his teams performance the most. So he is the best GW2 player.
I’m really not sure if you’re joking..
If its a mode that rates players rather then teams, then no, he’s not.
If a team of 5 sits and farms duo and soloques all day playing 30 matches they farmed up a maximum of 30 points,(Straight up PVE style) whereas if you win 30 matches out of 30 soloque, you are a way better player because you carried your team to victory.
You don’t understand how that player could actually be the best, eh?
You should read up on how GW2 rates skill.
You see, it’s a team game. The top players are the best team players.
He is so good that he improved his teams performance the most. So he is the best GW2 player.
Put that “best player in the world” on an average team and that team is still an average team. The definition of “best player in the world” (or class) needs to be redefined in GW2… If used at all.
aka FalseLights Rank: Top 250 since Season 2 #5 best gerdien in wurld
Your MMR rises or falls based on how often the team you are on exceeds expectations or fails to meet expectations.
Have you not seen the Ladder Points chart yet?
You can actually gain Ladder points if your team is expected to lose and score only about 150 points, but instead gets 300 points…and loses!
Yeah but if our team is expected to win every time we’ll get 1 point per game. Then we’ll need to play a game for every point we want.. and if we do lose it’ll be like -3
Your MMR rises or falls based on how often the team you are on exceeds expectations or fails to meet expectations.
Have you not seen the Ladder Points chart yet?
You can actually gain Ladder points if your team is expected to lose and score only about 150 points, but instead gets 300 points…and loses!
Yeah but if our team is expected to win every time we’ll get 1 point per game. Then we’ll need to play a game for every point we want.. and if we do lose it’ll be like -3
Then you will have to leave your comfort zone and prove your INDIVIDUAL skill by playing in worse rosters/not premades to move up faster.
Character: Henry rank million/Duke Henry
Necromancer/Casual Warrior
[Team] Best WvW guild of all time. EASILY.
Let’s all just hope that Justin and the team can get the dials set (with the available measures) so that the Expected Winner calculation is correct 99% of the time when the teams are quite uneven in average MMRs, and 50% of the time when the teams are even in MMRs.
The Alien (condi necro),That Wreckin Crew (Mesmer)
Silentshoes (Thief), Wind of the Woods (condi ranger)
Your MMR rises or falls based on how often the team you are on exceeds expectations or fails to meet expectations.
Have you not seen the Ladder Points chart yet?
You can actually gain Ladder points if your team is expected to lose and score only about 150 points, but instead gets 300 points…and loses!
Yeah but if our team is expected to win every time we’ll get 1 point per game. Then we’ll need to play a game for every point we want.. and if we do lose it’ll be like -3
Then you will have to leave your comfort zone and prove your INDIVIDUAL skill by playing in worse rosters/not premades to move up faster.
This game is a team game lol, your supposed to be getting better as a team not showing how u can “carry” bad players
Playing with a team should be the highest reward form in this game, not shunned as “face rolling” and given LESS rewards then LOSING
Your MMR rises or falls based on how often the team you are on exceeds expectations or fails to meet expectations.
Have you not seen the Ladder Points chart yet?
You can actually gain Ladder points if your team is expected to lose and score only about 150 points, but instead gets 300 points…and loses!
Yeah but if our team is expected to win every time we’ll get 1 point per game. Then we’ll need to play a game for every point we want.. and if we do lose it’ll be like -3
unfortunately, the current gw2 spvp player population is not large enough.
there seems to be severe lack of players that can match your team’s MMR.
Your MMR rises or falls based on how often the team you are on exceeds expectations or fails to meet expectations.
Have you not seen the Ladder Points chart yet?
You can actually gain Ladder points if your team is expected to lose and score only about 150 points, but instead gets 300 points…and loses!
Yeah but if our team is expected to win every time we’ll get 1 point per game. Then we’ll need to play a game for every point we want.. and if we do lose it’ll be like -3
Then you will have to leave your comfort zone and prove your INDIVIDUAL skill by playing in worse rosters/not premades to move up faster.
This game is a team game lol, your supposed to be getting better as a team not showing how u can “carry” bad players
Playing with a team should be the highest reward form in this game, not shunned as “face rolling” and given LESS rewards then LOSING
well, highest reward means entering those usd 50k tournaments and winning cold hard cash for you and your team.
otherwise, it is kinda face rolling if your team is destroying all other casual / average / below average teams.
Guys… They said they’ll introduce the new leaderboards (beta version!) on the 16th. Then someone checking for unknown reason the leaderboards, see something that we’re not even supposed to see and the arguments begin. They are still working on it, what about some patience?
Also I just checked my friendlist on the leaderboards, I know the skill level of every single person there. Comparing their skill level PLUS their activity recently, everything looks fair to me.
This is a team game, but Rated is not just a team mode, by taking your MMR out of the context of your team we’ll actually be able to see who’s really good and who’s really not, but that’s after the dust settles and MMR is actually solid.
Right now MMR is kitten. I don’t even know who most of the top 25 is :/
Right now you could be beating bads, that accidentally won a 4v5, then some wvwvw heros who’ve only gotten courtyard for 4 maps in a row and somehow won with buildwars, so your points aren’t kosher either.
Your MMR rises or falls based on how often the team you are on exceeds expectations or fails to meet expectations.
Have you not seen the Ladder Points chart yet?
You can actually gain Ladder points if your team is expected to lose and score only about 150 points, but instead gets 300 points…and loses!
Yeah but if our team is expected to win every time we’ll get 1 point per game. Then we’ll need to play a game for every point we want.. and if we do lose it’ll be like -3
Then you will have to leave your comfort zone and prove your INDIVIDUAL skill by playing in worse rosters/not premades to move up faster.
This game is a team game lol, your supposed to be getting better as a team not showing how u can “carry” bad players
Playing with a team should be the highest reward form in this game, not shunned as “face rolling” and given LESS rewards then LOSING
And your team can enter those esports tournaments and gain the prestige from then. If you want to try hard as a team then this is what is aimed at you. Those of us at a lower level who just want to play and have fun? Then leaderboards being something we can work towards is for us. And it is really good for the game. I dont want another afk leaderboard. I want players who grind to be rewarded with some prestige, and grinding your way up the leaderboard seems really fun.
Character: Henry rank million/Duke Henry
Necromancer/Casual Warrior
[Team] Best WvW guild of all time. EASILY.
Your MMR rises or falls based on how often the team you are on exceeds expectations or fails to meet expectations.
Have you not seen the Ladder Points chart yet?
You can actually gain Ladder points if your team is expected to lose and score only about 150 points, but instead gets 300 points…and loses!
Yeah but if our team is expected to win every time we’ll get 1 point per game. Then we’ll need to play a game for every point we want.. and if we do lose it’ll be like -3
Then you will have to leave your comfort zone and prove your INDIVIDUAL skill by playing in worse rosters/not premades to move up faster.
This game is a team game lol, your supposed to be getting better as a team not showing how u can “carry” bad players
Playing with a team should be the highest reward form in this game, not shunned as “face rolling” and given LESS rewards then LOSING
well, highest reward means entering those usd 50k tournaments and winning cold hard cash for you and your team.
otherwise, it is kinda face rolling if your team is destroying all other casual / average / below average teams.
IM 17, I can’t play with my team in those tournaments. What do I play for?
Addendum:
Yes number of games also matters. We want the players that play more to be higher on the ladder than similarly skilled players who play less. We also want less skilled players to have a chance as well.
IMO, this is absolutely correct. Even if the leaderboard isn’t perfect, having a leaderboard that encourages people to play more, rather than less (like the previous one did) is pretty essential to growing the community.
Basically, even if playing a lot boosts your leaderboard rating more than it should, its still way better than having people not play for the sole purpose of boosting their rating with the way decay used to work.
Your MMR rises or falls based on how often the team you are on exceeds expectations or fails to meet expectations.
Have you not seen the Ladder Points chart yet?
You can actually gain Ladder points if your team is expected to lose and score only about 150 points, but instead gets 300 points…and loses!
Yeah but if our team is expected to win every time we’ll get 1 point per game. Then we’ll need to play a game for every point we want.. and if we do lose it’ll be like -3
Then you will have to leave your comfort zone and prove your INDIVIDUAL skill by playing in worse rosters/not premades to move up faster.
This game is a team game lol, your supposed to be getting better as a team not showing how u can “carry” bad players
Playing with a team should be the highest reward form in this game, not shunned as “face rolling” and given LESS rewards then LOSING
well, highest reward means entering those usd 50k tournaments and winning cold hard cash for you and your team.
otherwise, it is kinda face rolling if your team is destroying all other casual / average / below average teams.
IM 17, I can’t play with my team in those tournaments. What do I play for?
The other tournaments? The ESL tournaments?
Character: Henry rank million/Duke Henry
Necromancer/Casual Warrior
[Team] Best WvW guild of all time. EASILY.
Your MMR rises or falls based on how often the team you are on exceeds expectations or fails to meet expectations.
Have you not seen the Ladder Points chart yet?
You can actually gain Ladder points if your team is expected to lose and score only about 150 points, but instead gets 300 points…and loses!
Yeah but if our team is expected to win every time we’ll get 1 point per game. Then we’ll need to play a game for every point we want.. and if we do lose it’ll be like -3
Then you will have to leave your comfort zone and prove your INDIVIDUAL skill by playing in worse rosters/not premades to move up faster.
This game is a team game lol, your supposed to be getting better as a team not showing how u can “carry” bad players
Playing with a team should be the highest reward form in this game, not shunned as “face rolling” and given LESS rewards then LOSING
well, highest reward means entering those usd 50k tournaments and winning cold hard cash for you and your team.
otherwise, it is kinda face rolling if your team is destroying all other casual / average / below average teams.
IM 17, I can’t play with my team in those tournaments. What do I play for?
The other tournaments? The ESL tournaments?
I have played in these, however that being said, they are held once a week on Sundays. Should I just not play the rest of the week? I want to be rewarded for my time invested. At the moment the only “event” I can do during the week is team Q. I want to be rewarded for playing team Q, and like many I enjoy team Q quite a lot. I WOULD love to lose half of my matches because it would mean that there are other competitive teams that are putting up close games with me. However that isn’t the reality and as it stands only a few players dominate the scene. I am totally for having “grindable” Pvp stuff… Reward tracks are just an example… But for leaderboards which are supposed to represent the best players in the game, and since they are releasing exclusive armor (same amount we got from Winning Tournament of Glory) I feel that the leaderboards should be one thing that is based on skill, NOT time played. That being said I think that 100-200 games should be required to even be on the leaderboards. I don’t think going 60-70 should put you anywhere near r1.
This game is a team game lol, your supposed to be getting better as a team not showing how u can “carry” bad players
Playing with a team should be the highest reward form in this game, not shunned as “face rolling” and given LESS rewards then LOSING
Playing with a team is still better rewarded, since it’s easier to get more points if your team is good and consistently wins.
ya ya this!
but i think they could be also punished by having much longer queue times than other players and teams?
since the match making system would be trying hard to find suitable teams for them but all is vain.
i guess leaderboards are not perfect yet, there are some things that may have to be changed so people with very bad mmr are not top. But i think best is to wait for the testseason. Once its over we have enough data to actually see what is wrong and what is good.
This is what brackets are for, right? I wonder if any system can accommodate people of WIDELY divergent skill levels in one single “bracket”.
Some people have such amazing reaction time, quick thinking time, and super keyboard-dancing skills that they should always be playing against people at their level.
Perhaps they should just stop recording wins and losses.
If it’s going to be “Ladder Points”, so be it. Win/loss confuses things.
The only way Win/Loss would be correct is if there was actual handicapping employed within the match. For example, if high MMR teams got fewer “points per tick” on their score when they play a real underdog team of newbies (because that was the only match available from who was in the queue).
But now that handicapping is done in the Ladder Point Chart…. making the win/loss misleading.
I don’t think match making is ever ideal. In sports for example when you get to the post season, you don’t expect to see 50+ point shutouts in a football game (american).
You also don’t expect to see a series sweep in the world series, or a 4-1 series in the NBA finals.
Theoretically these matchups should average themselves out to being close, as they’re supposedly utilizing better matchups.
But this just isn’t always the case.
Sylvari Elementalist – Mystree Duskbloom (Lv 80)
Norn Guardian – Aurora Lustyr (Lv 80)
Mia A Shadows Glow – Human Thief (Lv 80)
Couldn’t they just make the leaderboards based on the mmr the matchmaking system uses to find you games? Surely the “best” player will have the highest mmr so they will be put at the top.
You don’t understand how that player could actually be the best, eh?
You should read up on how GW2 rates skill.
You see, it’s a team game. The top players are the best team players.
He is so good that he improved his teams performance the most. So he is the best GW2 player.
Lol jejus have you dueled Lexi at least once? I wouldn’t say she is not best player in the world, she is just one of the most-playing player along with Ghaleon, Danny. I have met her in soloq a lot lot of times before new pvp update, i can definitely say this. BTW, do you even know her class and pvp leaderboard rank before patch and how much she have played there? if you knew you wouldnt say current new leaderboard is good system but just grinding.
The leaderboards SHOULD be a grind. It SHOULD be a mix of skill and playing alot. Otherwise you get a stagnant community where people only play with their “full” teams and stomp people. And afkers will win the leaderboards. This game will be so healthy if the leaderboards are a bit of a grind. They have tournaments for full teams to lame it up and win something. Leaderboards should primarily be designed to encourage participation.
So I hope these leaderboards are a sign of things to come.
Problem is that those guys are changing them from afk ftw to play as much a possible not caring about winning….we all know old one was bad with ppl not playing and only going for safe matches to dodge decay, but this is not gonna be any better, as u said they must reward ppl for both playing AND win/loss ratio…otherwise tryhards with lots of time are gonna end up way higher than they actually deserve to be imo…if winning counts nothing how can you possibly call this a competitive game?
