Guild Wars 2

So, recently some ppl and I decided to try 5v5 here and there. We played decent number of games.

Here is my short observation about 5v5:
5v5 game is dominated by “downed state management” and AOE spamming (as a part of AOE spamming). It really really dumbs down the game. While game mechanics are decent at 1v1 (duel) level which essentially filters out downed state, larger fights become very boring and stupid and dominated by two aspects above (synchronized rezzing, aoe spamming).

What do I mean by this:
1. What distinguishes really good teams in team fights is not so much their ability to ‘not get downed and down the enemy first’ but rather their management of the downed state (of their own members and of enemy). By this I primarily mean synchronized rezzing of their downed ppl and AOE spam on the downed enemy.
2. Downed state management makes it essentially impossible to 1v3 and stomp someone (and in 1v2 it is really really hard). Dumbed down mechanics of the game (such is autofacing on skills etc) make it already very difficult to down someone 1v3 (since most of the crap 3 guys throw at you will hit even if they are clueless positioning/facing wise). However, the fact that synchronous rez of the other two guys will get the guy up before you execute your stomp (and I am not even going to go into them cc-ing you while you are sitting duck for 3+ seconds). This, in my opinion, simply diminishes importance of individual skill and dumbs down the game. You give us oh up to 20-30 skills to use them skillfully and down the guy but then you completely negate that by his two oh-so-skillfull teammates pressing single button to heal him up. Wow….what a stupid design.
Simply said: it is more important that the two team-mates of the downed guy be quick to press single key and rez him once their buddy is downed in 3v1, rather than for them to actually play well and down the single guy before he downs one of their own. It also completely negates the effort of single guy who actually managed to stay alive and down the enemy in 1v3 (while juggling whatever number of skills).

Does this sound as a proper design of a game? I think it is beyond stupid. And no wonder game is dead and ppl do not want to play stupid 5v5 mode and are requesting smaller games (1v1, 2v2 and 3v3). Sorry ANET, just big fail here.

I am not gonna go into the huge differences in ability to stomp or prevent being stomped in team fights by different classes. It is just laughable. In our first tourney together we ended up fighting PZ. Ranger buddy and I were fighting two eles most of the game. Let us just say that between non-downed guy mist form rezzing and downed guy vapor forming and non-downed guy aoe knockbacks it is really comical trying to stomp the guy even in 2v2 when ppl know what they are doing.

If they want 5v5 game to be meaningful, downed state should be such that if someone downs the guy in 1v5, he still has at least 50/50 chance of stomping that guy (yes versus other 4 trying to ’rez’him; it is enough he has to survive 5 ppl on him while dealing sufficient dmg to down one of them, what is the kittening point of negating all that effort by making it impossible to stomp the downed guy?).
I have some idea how to do this:
1. Stomp should be much quicker (but not too quick as to make it impossible to interrupt by someone who reacts on time). 3+ sec sitting duck is enough to die like 5 times to burst of single glass cannon.
2. Invulnerable ppl should not be able to stomp/rez (no mist form stomping, no mist form rezzing).
3. healing of rezzed person should be such that if 4 teammates start rezing at the same time the stomper starts stomping they should not rez him on time. Wow you will say, but yeah, if they cannot manage to interrupt the stomper, then they should not win that particular case (rezing as opposed getting stomped).

In other words…downed guy should be pretty much a dead guy with very significant effort needed to bring him back.

I agree, downed state i just another example of bad pvp design that makes it almost impossible to distinguish yourself against numerically superior enemy, especially in spvp and free tourneys where leavers are common because there are no features to punish such behavior. And people leave because in spvp there is no real incentive to win, its just a place to farm glory, while in free tourneys people leave because no one likes to be farmed by premades,
Basically entire pvp system in place now is rotten to the core, because they wanted to reinvent hot water and did not want put in place any of the standard obligatory pvp features common to most MMO games.

From my perspective, you’re a vocal minority and only someone that would post this would be an elitest jerk. If you’re so good at this game, learn to play it. You’re asking to be able to stomp someone before 4 teammates can res him? HA

I really don’t think the problem is in 5vs5, of course 4vs4 and 3vs3 will be more than welcome in the near future (as im sure those modes will come), but 5v5 is fine aswell. And about aoe, they already said theres a nerf inc.

Mufa.1326:

I am not gonna go into the huge differences in ability to stomp or prevent being stomped in team fights by different classes. It is just laughable. In our first tourney together we ended up fighting PZ. Ranger buddy and I were fighting two eles most of the game.

This would be the problem. Matchmaking is coming, so (hopefully) soon first-time tournament players won’t be pitted against the best teams in the world (500+hours of practice together vs. team’s first tournament…good luck).

Also, if you’re in a 2v2 against 2 eles, you gotta down the same one twice within about a minute, or down both at the same time. I’m not qq-ing (we have plenty of pages on that already) but it’s an extremely harsh learning curve for teams trying tournaments together for the first time. The “rules” aren’t exactly intuitive.

Almost everyone loves the downed state because it adds a whole new layer of excitement to the game. Its just plain fun and adds for new strategies and different builds are viable because of it.

The day the remove downed state almost everyone will quit the game. Those who hate down state are beyond a minority. They are a tiny proportion of the community. This isnt a fact but just what is seen even on the forums where everyone QQs ALMOST everyone likes the downed state. In game everyone loves it. Nobody ever has moaned in chat about the downed state in any game I have ever played on GW2.

So yeh. Downed state is amazing. L2p

they were supposedly going to address AoE, but obviously they havent done anything yet and since the big pvp/wvw patch is not happening in february now i dont we wont see any meaningful changes to pvp for another 2 months despite them talking about aoe changes a month ago.

Sprawl.3891:

they were supposedly going to address AoE, but obviously they havent done anything yet and since the big pvp/wvw patch is not happening in february now i dont we wont see any meaningful changes to pvp for another 2 months despite them talking about aoe changes a month ago.

Really? Didn’t Jonathan Sharp say that February and March patches are big patches, focused mostly on PvP. What the hell is going on, I guess they said something about it in SotG video, which I couldn’t watch.

Sprawl.3891:

they were supposedly going to address AoE, but obviously they havent done anything yet and since the big pvp/wvw patch is not happening in february now i dont we wont see any meaningful changes to pvp for another 2 months despite them talking about aoe changes a month ago.

Actually the were talking about aoe changes as far back as november.
Proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hByqoWsnz-I If you watch the stream take notice how Jonathan Sharp uses derogatory term " noobs" for new/casual players constantly during a show ( example 19:40 ) No wonder we are getting screwed constantly.

Krilce.7864:

Sprawl.3891:

they were supposedly going to address AoE, but obviously they havent done anything yet and since the big pvp/wvw patch is not happening in february now i dont we wont see any meaningful changes to pvp for another 2 months despite them talking about aoe changes a month ago.

Really? Didn’t Jonathan Sharp say that February and March patches are big patches, focused mostly on PvP. What the hell is going on, I guess they said something about it in SotG video, which I couldn’t watch.

they did but then they made a post about WvW patch getting pushed and mentioned in SoTG there will be no big spvp patch in feb either.

Yeah 5v5 is about downed state management, and yeah 5v5 is dominated by AoEs… but how in the hell does that lead you to the conclusion that you should be able to stomp ppl 1v5 LMAO. That doesn’t solve anything other than you being able to dominate hot joins even more.

They need to balance out the downed states among the classes first and see how that plays out and then take it from there.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Mufa.1326:

I am not gonna go into the huge differences in ability to stomp or prevent being stomped in team fights by different classes. It is just laughable. In our first tourney together we ended up fighting PZ. Ranger buddy and I were fighting two eles most of the game.

This would be the problem. Matchmaking is coming, so (hopefully) soon first-time tournament players won’t be pitted against the best teams in the world (500+hours of practice together vs. team’s first tournament…good luck).

Also, if you’re in a 2v2 against 2 eles, you gotta down the same one twice within about a minute, or down both at the same time. I’m not qq-ing (we have plenty of pages on that already) but it’s an extremely harsh learning curve for teams trying tournaments together for the first time. The “rules” aren’t exactly intuitive.

Actually matchup was not a problem. Problem is what I described above: dumbing down the game by making ‘downed state management’ essentially more important than what is supposed to be ‘main’ game. And of course, severe imbalances in ‘downed state survivability’ of different classes.

As someone who was strongly against Downed State when the game first released, I can say that I honestly enjoy it now. I think once I realized the nuances of it and its importance in team fights, I fell in love.

I still think it needs some tweaks, i.e. rallying and some balancing between professions, but I do very very much enjoy it now. It adds another dynamic to the combat.

2c

Skyro.3108:

Yeah 5v5 is about downed state management, and yeah 5v5 is dominated by AoEs… but how in the hell does that lead you to the conclusion that you should be able to stomp ppl 1v5 LMAO. That doesn’t solve anything other than you being able to dominate hot joins even more.

They need to balance out the downed states among the classes first and see how that plays out and then take it from there.

That did not ‘lead’ me to the mentioned conclusion. Where did you read that?

AOE being way too strong is obviously a problem. And game artificially limiting what single guy can do is another problem. I just talked about both of them in one post.

What I claim is this: if skill is to have meaning in this game, as it currently has very little meaning in 5v5, then they need to allow for decent chance to stomp the guy you down. So if you down the guy in 1v5 you should also have decent chance of stomping him,; you should not be in position where you have no chance whatsoever. As it stands, 1v3 is pretty much impossible to finish stomp unless two guys are brain dead. It is however not impossible to 1v3 and down one guy. That, in my opinion, is very bad design catered to people with low skill. Whenever game artificially limits single guy in how large group he can defeat, it is a bad design. Terribly badly designed downed mechanic does exactly that. It just makes me laugh when two guys press single button and bring their guy up in 1 second or so, it is a joke.

As it stands 1v1 in this game requires some skill (less than it should due to dumbed down mechanics such is autofacing).

5v5 unfortunately requires pretty much no skill to do well, just well synchronized team doing very low skill kitten in synchronized manner. All you need is bunch of aoe spamming classes and synchronized rezzing. Whichever team has those two aspects down better is likely to win. I know people call that ‘skill’/‘communication’ etc…but let us face it; it is stupid. Who da kitten wants to play such game?

You tell me how much skill it requires to bring engi, necro, 2 eles and trap ranger and spam AOE as fast as possible and to rez the downed guy together?

Sprawl.3891:

they were supposedly going to address AoE, but obviously they havent done anything yet and since the big pvp/wvw patch is not happening in february now i dont we wont see any meaningful changes to pvp for another 2 months despite them talking about aoe changes a month ago.

Well, no wonder 5v5 game is dead.
First it is very inconvenient to make teams and I thought that is the biggest problem.
However, after playing 5v5 for about 10 days, I can tell you that problem is that it is severely dumb (AOE spam being too strong and downed state allowing for too easy rezzing).

ahuba.6430:

I really don’t think the problem is in 5vs5, of course 4vs4 and 3vs3 will be more than welcome in the near future (as im sure those modes will come), but 5v5 is fine aswell. And about aoe, they already said theres a nerf inc.

It is not just aoe.
It is too high importance of playing ‘downed state’ well. Game should not be dumbed down to the point where “downed state management” becomes more important than ‘getting person into downed state’.

AOE is simply laughably bad design. You have to be pretty dumb not to realize in advance that making AOE as strong as single target dmg is gonna cause problems in 5v5 where you fight for points that are size of aoe field.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Almost everyone loves the downed state because it adds a whole new layer of excitement to the game. Its just plain fun and adds for new strategies and different builds are viable because of it.

The day the remove downed state almost everyone will quit the game. Those who hate down state are beyond a minority. They are a tiny proportion of the community. This isnt a fact but just what is seen even on the forums where everyone QQs ALMOST everyone likes the downed state. In game everyone loves it. Nobody ever has moaned in chat about the downed state in any game I have ever played on GW2.

So yeh. Downed state is amazing. L2p

Yeah, L2P, meaning learn-to-press-X-to-rez-teammate-all-together-as-soon-as-possible maaaan.
Do you think that should be the main skill differential between teams as it is now the case?

Those who hate downed state are beyond minority? Let me tell you a secret: People who play 5v5 are a beyond minority in this game. One big reason for that is that it is dumbed down to the point where it is painful how dumb it is.
It is so dumb that pressing single (rez) key quickly after your teammate goes down is more important than everything else in the game. Another reason it is so dumb is that aoe spam is so strong.
I am trying to help here. You guys are fumbling around asking why is the game dead. Well, big reason is because it is dumb. There are other reasons (it is inconvenient, etc). But after playing for 10 days I am convinced that it is because 5v5 is super super dumb.

Only person who can ‘love’ the downed state as it stands now is a person who sucks in actual game (getting person from full health into downed state) and needs to ‘bailed out’ in 1sec by his teammates’ synchronized rez, while running aoe spam classes so when enemy gets downed they can all just aoe spam the downed body and players trying to rez the enemy.

Sorry, it makes the 5v5 game very dumb. And if you do not believe me, just look at the population. Pretty much everyone agrees with me that 5v5 as is now is severly dumb.

My team ran composition without pretty much any aoe. It happens we down the guy 5 times and 5 times he gets rezzed. If one of ours gets down, expect severe aoe spam on the body.

Who wants to play that nonsense? Do you think I want to practice with my teammates how to rez quickly? Come on.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Mufa.1326:

I am not gonna go into the huge differences in ability to stomp or prevent being stomped in team fights by different classes. It is just laughable. In our first tourney together we ended up fighting PZ. Ranger buddy and I were fighting two eles most of the game.

This would be the problem. Matchmaking is coming, so (hopefully) soon first-time tournament players won’t be pitted against the best teams in the world (500+hours of practice together vs. team’s first tournament…good luck).

Also, if you’re in a 2v2 against 2 eles, you gotta down the same one twice within about a minute, or down both at the same time. I’m not qq-ing (we have plenty of pages on that already) but it’s an extremely harsh learning curve for teams trying tournaments together for the first time. The “rules” aren’t exactly intuitive.

Matchmaking was not a problem. It was a good and pretty close game. The problem is what i described. Extremely badly designed game (downed state) in 5v5 setting.

There is also problem in this community: reflexive defense of ANET, reflexive L2P by morons I can just destroy in duel, reflexive ‘you are minority’ by people who are playing mode that is pretty much dead.

I will tell you this: People want to play the ACTUAL game which is: getting enemy from full health to downed state.
This stomping and downed state nonsense is bearable if it is SMALL part of the game. Once it becomes DOMINANT, as it currently is in 5v5, to the point where it is more difficult to stomp the guy than to get him downed (yes, unless your team composition is AOE spam), game becomes DUMB. Noone will want to play it. Witness the dead population of the game.

One more thing: ANET seems to be very dumb/slow to realize and correct mistakes. They were being told for ages to make single game 2 teams que but they kittened around with 8 team que until the killed the population.

Now you guys are defending this nonsense where if guy has enough skill to down ppl in 1v5, he has no chance whatsoever to finish him off and it takes half a sec for his other 4 teammates to rez him up. So 1v5 is impossible, 1v4 is impossible, 1v3 is impossible, 1v2 is barely possible. Again…who will want to play that game?

Where is the skill demonstrated if it is impossible to go and do something exceptional? Is the meaning of skill now in synchronized rezzing and ‘bringing good composition that can do good AOE spam’?

let’s see if I read the OP correctly
1) you got kitten because the enemy team was so coordinated that managed to die right next to 2 friends and avoid stomping? good for them, you got outplayed. Also, if you maybe didn’t try stomping someone with 3 people together (for example), and had 2 dps doing damage on the downed (or cc the ressers, or whatever), maybe you could have the stomp down. BTW, ever tried to haste stomp? (ranger pet switch, mesmer’s time warp, thief haste after a cnd/steal/bs combo)
2) you’re not supposed to kill someone 1vs3 or 1vs2, unless they’re really bad.

btw, downed state is the only thing that keeps this game to be COMPLETELY dominated by glass cannon setups.

also, a team without any form of aoe damage? wtf were you running?
Elementalist: any build has some form of aoe (except bunkers, they do no damage anyway)
Engineer: bombs, grenades
Guardian: bunker, doesn’t count
Mesmer: shatters, blurred frenzy
Necromancer: everything is kind of aoe
Ranger: traps
Thief: cluster bomb spamming
Warrior: lol@trying to ress someone with a warrior using 100b on him

every class in this game is capable of some aoe, so what were you running, 5 guardians? XD

Shar:
1. Yeah very coordinated to press one key after their guy goes down. We were severely ‘outrezzed’.
2. Why am I not supposed to kill ppl 1v2 or 1v3? ANET decreed so? I already down ppl 1v2 and 1v3, downed state makes it very difficult to impossible to stomp them.
3. Downed state is NOT the only thing that keeps game from being completely dominated by GC setups. One has to be very bad player or have his cooldowns down to be bursted down by glass cannon. So 5v5 glass cannons have no chance against balanced players. I think you have no idea what you are talking about.
4. Of course, every class has some AOE, I was not talking about that.

This is becoming too long. Point is:
Making downed state such that it becomes the most important part of the game is a bad design. It is not fun, it is not what people want to play, people will not play it.
Proof is in the pudding as they say. Look at the kittening population of 5v5.

I don’t know why you people are whining about Down State, its an aspect of PvP that is easily controllable and if you’re playing tournaments its the way you can easily outplay your opponents and get yourself the win.

You can easily apply fear/knockdown to interrupt revives on the downed person, you can burst down the ressers themselves or you can control where & when you down an opponent and you can also just quickness stomp if you have it available.

Having 4 people ressing a single target is quick, but its at a loss of damaging opponents and defending themselves it’s an ideal time to burst down another target leave them ressing, don’t forget you still get a penalty for being downed.

You shouldn’t be looking to automatically stomp anyone except a warrior unless they are defending a cap point, downed state is essentially half a player and being able to keep them from healing themselves with a single attack or condition gives you an even bigger advantage.

5 vs 5 is more about skilled play rather than zerg rushing like the 8 vs 8 hot joins.

Mufa.1326:

2. Invulnerable ppl should not be able to stomp/rez (no mist form stomping, no mist form rezzing).

I see what you’re saying, and I agree with everything but this. If the idea is to have to interrupt rezzers/stompers , then the rezzers/stompers need an equal counter — invulnerability.

the counter to invulnerable ressers is to knock away (guardian hammer works very well) the downed enemy
that works with necro signet ressing as well, just yesterday I made a necro waste his ress by simply updrafting the downed enemy a bit while he was casting.

ThatShortGuy.4672:

Mufa.1326:

2. Invulnerable ppl should not be able to stomp/rez (no mist form stomping, no mist form rezzing).

I see what you’re saying, and I agree with everything but this. If the idea is to have to interrupt rezzers/stompers , then the rezzers/stompers need an equal counter — invulnerability.

Counter for interrupt should be stability, which can be countered by “boon to condition” type of skill or “boon rip” type of skill, which can be countered again by “condition to boon” and so on. Invul rezzing has no counter, and I don’t thing that’s intended. If you can’t rez/stomp someone having already invul, you shouldn’t be able to get it in the middle of rezzing / stomping.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Almost everyone loves the downed state because it adds a whole new layer of excitement to the game. Its just plain fun and adds for new strategies and different builds are viable because of it.

The day the remove downed state almost everyone will quit the game. Those who hate down state are beyond a minority. They are a tiny proportion of the community. This isnt a fact but just what is seen even on the forums where everyone QQs ALMOST everyone likes the downed state. In game everyone loves it. Nobody ever has moaned in chat about the downed state in any game I have ever played on GW2.

So yeh. Downed state is amazing. L2p

cant tell if trolling

I DO love downstate. It adds another layer of strategy to teamplay which I like a lot. As was already said before, there are lots of ways to prevent people from rezzing their mates or getting a stomp. Managing downstate is exactly what makes the difference between good and bad teams. You call the one the better player who bursts the health away faster, but if the enemy team focusses on getting bursted people back up, aren’t they the better players because they made you waste your cooldowns for a useless burst? I honestly think so. It is a valid strategy, obviously it is at least a valid counter to your strategy.

This is a teamgame. If you want to pwn people on your own and feel like the big hero go elsewhere. As easy as that. You can not win every fight. If you do not adapt to basic game mechanics, than this is not the game for you.

Finally I’d like to quote something for you to think about (do not remember where it comes from):

“Nerf (strategy/class/comp I loose against), it is OP! (strategy/class/team comp I always win against) is fine. Buff (my strategy/class/team comp).”

Azadoras.2790:

“Nerf (strategy/class/comp I loose against), it is OP! (strategy/class/team comp I always win against) is fine. Buff (my strategy/class/team comp).”

That is a pointless quote since individual player skill has nothing to do with an overpowered/underpowered game mechanic. You cant tell one way or the other whether it is the player’s fault or the game’s fault based solely on player input. You need to do some objective reasoning to find the answer.

A lot of people like to l2p spam without really taking the time to objectively consider if that mechanic is overpowered or not. Its far easier to just ignore the issue and assume someone is bad than to devote brain power to figuring out how to fix it.

Sand Beagle.9867:

Azadoras.2790:

“Nerf (strategy/class/comp I loose against), it is OP! (strategy/class/team comp I always win against) is fine. Buff (my strategy/class/team comp).”

That is a pointless quote since individual player skill has nothing to do with an overpowered/underpowered game mechanic. You cant tell one way or the other whether it is the player’s fault or the game’s fault based solely on player input. You need to do some objective reasoning to find the answer.

A lot of people like to l2p spam without really taking the time to objectively consider if that mechanic is overpowered or not. Its far easier to just ignore the issue and assume someone is bad than to devote brain power to figuring out how to fix it.

I am not sure in which way the stomp mechanic is overpowered? Seems to me it is just the same for both sides though the team accepting it exists and acting accordingly wins.

I think the population in every game is divided into:
Regular Players: Dont read the forums often, on-the-fence regarding most issues, or formulate their opinions on whatever would result in the most fun outcome; just play to have fun.

Highbrows: Frequently browse the forums, and usually give their input on important game topics like balance and future prospects, using mostly logic, reasoning, and sound argumentation.

Elites/Pro’s: Frequently browse the forums, give their input like highbrows, but are generally much more subjective and base opinions off of their own skill/experience as a player.

Trolls: Frequently browse the forums, and offer no real constructive input (consciously or unconsciously).

I think people are missing the point. People are now giving me tips on how to manage down state, or telling me how it is good that “management of downstate” is exactly the difference between better and less good teams. Problem is not that I need tips, or that I am unaware of the importance of ‘management of downstate’.

My message to you was that after 10 days of playing 5v5 I already got very bored with it BECAUSE it severely over emphasizes downstate over the ACTUAL (by actual i mean ‘upstate’, i.e. getting ppl from full health to downed state) game. And even the ACTUAL game is dumbed down with the strength of the AOE spam.

You need to think about this. Do you want new people coming into GW2 or existing playerbase in pve and wvw to ask about 5v5 spvp and get an answer:
O yeah, the most important aspect of 5v5 is to be coordinated in rezzing and to aoe spam the downed enemy. So bring a lot of aoe and make sure you practice good rezzing coordination with your team. All these skills you have in “upstate” and how you use them? Not that important after all, it can easily bypassed by bringing aoe class and doing an aoe spam, but make sure you get your downed state management right.

If you think you will attract people into game with this type of game then OK. Forget my post. If you think this type of game will have a problem appealing to the large population, then you and ANET have a problem with their spvp structure. SO do not defend it but suggest to them to fix it.

I guarantee you this: If 3v3, 2v2 and 1v1 games were offered, they would instantly become much more popular then 5v5 as it currently stands. Both because it is more convenient to make teams for those and because they are much more fun because downstate management is much less important and ‘upstate’ management becomes more central (and aoe also significantly scales down with less spammers).

I dunno why they advertise ‘upstate’ skills when they are selling the game when they made downstate actually more important in their only official version (5v5).
They should advertise how this game is great because of virtues of synchronized rezzing.
Something like this: Come to GW2, imagine the fun you will have rezzing donwed buddy together with your 3 teammates in less than 0.5s and getting back up in the same manner.

It is just laughable how low-skill-requirement the 5v5 actually is.
Just try 1v1-ing some of those people from some of the top teams to see what I mean. And those people can be part of the top team exactly because it is not that important how terrible they are in ‘upstate management’, important thing is how good they are in downstate management (which is filtered out in duel) and if they bring aoe spam with them.

Notice how 5v5 makes downed state nonsense and aoe spam by far the most important aspect of the game and how this dumbs the game down. So no wonder ppl do not play it as long as it is like this, it is a game that deemphasizes skill and emphasizes long hours spent playing with the same bunch of guys.

Azadoras.2790:

Sand Beagle.9867:

Azadoras.2790:

“Nerf (strategy/class/comp I loose against), it is OP! (strategy/class/team comp I always win against) is fine. Buff (my strategy/class/team comp).”

That is a pointless quote since individual player skill has nothing to do with an overpowered/underpowered game mechanic. You cant tell one way or the other whether it is the player’s fault or the game’s fault based solely on player input. You need to do some objective reasoning to find the answer.

A lot of people like to l2p spam without really taking the time to objectively consider if that mechanic is overpowered or not. Its far easier to just ignore the issue and assume someone is bad than to devote brain power to figuring out how to fix it.

I am not sure in which way the stomp mechanic is overpowered? Seems to me it is just the same for both sides though the team accepting it exists and acting accordingly wins.

First, just because elementalist is ‘available’ to both teams, does not mean it is not OP.

Second, it is not matter of it being ‘overpowered’. It is a matter of whether it is FUN for downstate mini game nonsense to become more important than what is advertised as ACTUAL (upstate) game.
Let us face it, downstate is pretty simple little nonsense, if you allow ‘the skill in downstate’ to become the most important part of your 4v4 and 5v5 engagements, you simply have a dumbed down game that ppl will avoid.

Third, people talk about ‘skill’ in downstate. Problem is that there is not much opportunity to be skillful in downstate nonsense. It is very easy for very clueless ppl to become really good at downed state management especially if they have tools (frequent interrupts like hammer guardian, mass interrupts like aoe fear). If you do not have the interrupt tools then you can just try to rez/(stomp|dps).

Downstate, in many situations, is like playing a game (call it game_X) where you have one button that you can press and you need to press it as fast as possible after the light bulb changes color from green to red. Tell me, who wants to play such game? Noone, you are correct.
Now, tell me who wants to play a mmo where all the skill of getting ppl down is negated by the stupid minigame that is exactly like game_X? THat is exactly what GW2 5v5 currently is.

You talk about ‘upstate’ and ‘downstate skill’ all the time, but it seems to me YOU are missing the point here. To prevent others from stomping/AOEing or whatever your downed teammates you HAVE to use your ‘upstate’ skills in a strategic matter and not just spam them mindlessly around while everybody is in ‘upstate’. If someone starts to AOE your downed buddy why not just CC the spammer? If you just press your rezz-button mindlessly a good enemy team will just crush all of you, downed guy included.

I have to admit though that this may be hard to grasp for new players but once you get used to this it adds a lot of strategic depth to the game. Personally I do not like games which are to easy to get good at just by practicing your personal skill a lot. Making strategic decisions as team instead of just spamming all my damage into sombody else’s face until he is dead is what makes this game very appealing to me and many others I know. Take this away and you will loose lots of good players (I mean the really good ones to which I do not count myself) who are actually carrying the PvP at the moment.

I simply do not share your opinion and wanted to represent the part of the playerbase feeling this way here. Downstate probably will never change the way you are suggesting, so the solution is as simple as to explain to new people how important the downstate management is for winning, at least at higher skill levels. You have been able to figure this out after a few days of playing but you are obviously not liking it.

You think it is dumb, I like it a lot. All we can do is agree to disagree.

Azadoras, it is very simple thing for me to grasp after very little play what the focus of 5v5 is (I already mentioned it many times)

You find it fun? Good for you, because very few ppl apparently do as well. I am aware than even the stupidest aspects of game will always have its defenders. Question is whether this appeals to wider gaming population.

I was merely commenting about what I find to be aspects of 5v5 that are out of sync with what people expect and what is generally perceived as fun/boring.
Given how good mechanics of ‘upstate’ are and how interesting 1v1 is, 5v5 has potential to become much more than it currently is. Due to bad design 5v5 has actually been dumbed down where focus has severely shifted from ‘upstate management’ to ‘downstate management’, and downstate management is just too simple and too boring. Not only that but even upstate management has been reduced more toward AOE spamming than actually playing the class with skill.

Don’t speak for others. Vast majority I know love the downed state. You have no way of knowing how many like it.

Ayestes.1273:

Don’t speak for others. Vast majority I know love the downed state. You have no way of knowing how many like it.

Vast majority are zerging gangbangers.Vast majority love the downed state.

You guys need to ask yourself if gaming population is going to join and stay in 5v5 in order to play the mode where the most important aspect of the game is “downed state management” and “upstate management” is (mostly) dumbed down to AOE spam.
So far it did not work, but if you think it is going to be fine from now on then ok.

You can talk about the love ‘vast majority of ppl you know’ has for the current state of 5v5, but that does not fit the reality in which 5v5 is a dead game currently.

I have to somewhat agree with the OP on this point. I can do just fine with the current-state, but I do not like that 1v3 is almost impossible to win simply because of down state. If someone is able to bring 3 people’s life to 0 while maintaining their own life then they deserve to win in my opinion. Of course, I don’t expect this to happen often, but these epic moments are what I like to watch, experience and can really highlight your playing experience.

With that said, I think the downed state is here to stay, but that does not mean the numbers can’t be tweaked. Just like how the downed state health was nerfed for pvp, I believe it may be beneficial if the life gained on rez was reduced to rally levels (I am not a fan of rally in pvp, but I will leave that out). This way someone can still stop your stomp with coordinated rezzing, but it gives you the option of just maintaining dps as their gain for the time spent rezzing their teammate is worth less. Instead of rezzing a healthy team mate they will spend this time to rez someone who is one big hit from dying again and will take longer to pick up a second time.

If you’re downing a player in a one versus five, and if you use a glass cannon burst thief…. In this case I’m not sure how Coming out of stealth unsuspected and then instantly bursting someone down with a cheese combo or macro is “skilled”

Regardless of that, I still dislike downstate but I have no idea how they should fix it.

I’m sorry and maybe this is just me, but I’m having a bit of a hard time taking someone who has only played for 10 days seriously. It’s great that you’re open about your experiences with the game and I think it’s important that first time pvp players talks about how they experience the pvp in Guild Wars. What annoys me though, is that you don’t want to listen.

You sound like that you after only 10 days of playing is just as good as the pros in a 1v1 and the only thing keeping you from being a top player is that you simply cannot stomp the three guys you managed to down on your own. This kind of players really annoys me and I really do wish you would listen to what people have said so far in this thread. I would gladly help you out on positioning and the likes which in many cases renders AOE spam not useful.

I would also love to hear your thoughts on the game when you have played some more, but right now I’m having a bit of a hard time taking you serious.

Cheers :-)

Ps: sorry for spelling mistakes. It’s late and I’m on my phone

Briix.6872:

I’m sorry and maybe this is just me, but I’m having a bit of a hard time taking someone who has only played for 10 days seriously. It’s great that you’re open about your experiences with the game and I think it’s important that first time pvp players talks about how they experience the pvp in Guild Wars. What annoys me though, is that you don’t want to listen.

You sound like that you after only 10 days of playing is just as good as the pros in a 1v1 and the only thing keeping you from being a top player is that you simply cannot stomp the three guys you managed to down on your own. This kind of players really annoys me and I really do wish you would listen to what people have said so far in this thread. I would gladly help you out on positioning and the likes which in many cases renders AOE spam not useful.

I would also love to hear your thoughts on the game when you have played some more, but right now I’m having a bit of a hard time taking you serious.

Cheers :-)

Ps: sorry for spelling mistakes. It’s late and I’m on my phone

Yes, if someone manages to down enemy player in 1vs2 or 1vs3 that person clearly is a noob. /sarcasm off* Its like advising someone who spent 10 days banging his head against a wall to not complain and keep banging until he has a bit more experience with that.

Mufa.1326:

You guys need to ask yourself if gaming population is going to join and stay in 5v5 in order to play the mode where the most important aspect of the game is “downed state management” and “upstate management” is (mostly) dumbed down to AOE spam.
So far it did not work, but if you think it is going to be fine from now on then ok.

You can talk about the love ‘vast majority of ppl you know’ has for the current state of 5v5, but that does not fit the reality in which 5v5 is a dead game currently.

The problem is there’s too much of an emphasis on 8v8 in hot join, 5v5 servers are all but dead unless your testing a build or playing tournament pvp, i’d prefer to see a shift in the hot join away from 8v8 and into 5v5 only and a better scoring system, but lets just actually discuss how it is right now.

“Upstate management” in tPvP is more than just laying down your AoE abilities, its about controlling the most important areas (cap points & buffs) and not allowing your opponent to capture them and while ensuring your best chances to capture them. Typically through the use of stability/fear/knockback/burst to neutralize your opponents effectiveness through numbers or superior positioning.

“Downstate management” in tPvP is again about control, you only need to take care of an opponent when he is a threat to your objectives (cap points & buffs) being able to effectively down your opponent at the correct time allows you the extra time to 1. recover your position 2. nullify their effectiveness 3. move to another target and again down & take them out of the game.

If your bunker is killed while defending your point and you take over defense at the point, being able to control your opponent’s downstate and your own becomes key.

example:

You: Warrior
Teammate: Bunker

Your bunker dies and you as a warrior then step in to defend the point, you are able to down your opponent but he also downs you too. Opponent’s team mate comes in and has 2 options: 1. Stomp you 2. Revive team mate. If he goes for option 1. you have your knockdown to interrupt the stomp, If he goes for option 2. he’s got a chance to revive his team mate before you can activate your vengeance and stomp his team mate and get a full rally.

All of this is happening in the 14 seconds + run time for your bunker to get to your point and support you, this is where the true skill of managing downstate lies. You’re still in control of the point and gaining points for every tic, your opponent is downed and you force your opponent into making a tough decision.

People who understand this understand how important it is tactically to competitive level pvp, unfortunately it isn’t covered in general hot join play and is only learned through playing with team mates and playing against better teams.

Khyras.8021:

Yes, if someone manages to down enemy player in 1vs2 or 1vs3 that person clearly is a noob. /sarcasm off* Its like advising someone who spent 10 days banging his head against a wall to not complain and keep banging until he has a bit more experience with that.

That’s not what I was trying to say and I hope that most of you understood that. What I was trying to say was that you can’t play for 10 days and be the best player or anything near it. I also did say that it’s important to listen to first time pvp players, but they also need to listen if they want to understand/get better at the game.

This game is of course not for everyone, surely. Maybe it’s not for Mufa. Maybe it’s not for Mufa because he hasn’t been learnt some basic stuff about spvp that A Net really should be better at teaching new players.

You can’t compare playing spvp to banging your head against the wall. At least, that’s what I think.

I honestly have no idea how anyone who has every played a PvP game could disagree with what Mufa has been saying on downstate and AoEs. Hardly anybody stomps anymore, unless they are forced to, because stomping basically puts you at a disadvantage due to all the AoE and damage focusing on the downed target.

This is why rezz utilities have become so popular, this is why AoEs have become so popular. If your team has to stomp to secure a kill and your opponents do not, you have lost the fight. Most bunkers I know are more worried about dying while rezzing stomping than when they are actually being attacked. Do you honestly think this makes sense?

And this is not even touching on the subject of imbalanced down states.

10 days in PvP and this guy has understood what most can’t seem to. Just because you’re winning or exploiting this ridiculuous mechanic better than others, doesn’t mean it’s good for the game or rational.

Why do we have messages for “downing” people on the lower right corner of the screen, when it’s meaningless? Have you ever wondered? Makes you think that down state was never intended to be as critical as it is to “winning” a fight.

If you are of the opinion that down state is necessary to counter burst classes like I have read many times, then take a step back and think, perhaps you will realize that you’ve got it backwards and that maybe burst and bunker builds are way too extreme and need to be adjusted, so that down state can be thrown out of the window.

Mufa.1326:

arcana & the rest who post like him… please ppl, stop offering to teach me the game. It makes me laugh.

It is not that our new team cannot hold our own against the ‘top’ teams, and we need advice or pitty if we get matched up against them.

I was simply commenting how to make 5v5 better and what aspects of it make it dumb and boring and unappealing to the wider population.

If you think that 5v5 can become esport and widely followed by audiences because top teams are ‘fast rezzers’, or because upstate is dominated by AOE spam, then you are sorely mistaken. What people want to see is exactly what this game currently makes impossible because of the bad downstate design: They want to see one guy coming in and in 2 minute fight bringing down 3 guys turning around the fight. Can you imagine audience watching 4 guys insta rezz their downed teammate and they all go ‘ahh-ohh-what-an-amazing-skill’…just LOL at you. Can you imagine them admire at the AOE spam of team composed of AOE classes? again LOL at you. As it currently stands, 5v5 is beyond boring, stupid and unwatchable.

Game killed heroes just by bad design of the downed state. And without heroes, you will not have esport and you will not have audiences. Ppl want to see Jordan kick kitten

Top teams wont always insta-res there may be better situations to down two people and then res or stomp to res their team mate.

Tell me what the problem with AoE is? cluster bomb spam? ele fire fields? every AoE has a clearly marked area which is avoidable and again this is part of the strategy you can either stand in it and take damage or you can stay out of it or better yet down the player spamming AoE, they cant use the skills when their downed.

5v5 wont be made better by removing one of the core mechanics because you believe that a single glass cannon should be heroing around killing everything, you know what the meta would be 5 basilisk venom thieves and that would be truly boring to play and watch.

It’s super fricking boring. <- My main observation.

Just remove the point capping and make it an actual PvP game where downing players is what scores.

Rezzet.3614:

Just remove the point capping and make it an actual PvP game where downing players is what scores.

Biggest problem with this is that there will need to be serious balance changes.

For example, thieves have the highest untelegraphed burst and best disengage, but their downside is that they are very bad at contesting/defending points.

I kinda have to agree with the OP. I have seen a lot of a current players defend the downed state but that is why they are the current players and others are not. Really hard to say which group is the minority given how many have left.

For me the downed state seems like a safety net, not only that it helps prevent burst but also something good teams can cling to as their distinguishing factor. And wow does using the downed state in your favor win games. It does help increase the skill cap and reward having synergy with your team. But I find this method inferior than having the combat itself reward the greatest amount of synergy as who is going to clap for a great res play as opposed to timing interrupts on healers during a burst?

Existence of the ‘downstate’ is not an issue, but numbers should be significantly tweaked.
It cannot dominate the fight as it currently does. Game is advertised for its ‘upstate’ , and that is where the skills are. Then you negate that completely with 0.5 sec rez that relies on single button click after the teammate going down runs to his team.

And then there is scaling of AOE from 1v1 to 5v5. AOE builds are comparable to single target dmg builds in 1v1 and then they just insanely scale to 5v5 (up to 5x the dmg) while single target dmg builds still do the same dmg whether there is 1 or 5 ppl around the dmg area. Just insanely bad design.