Guild Wars 2

People suck at PvP.

Results:
-No competition.
-No incentive.
-No fun.

Matchmaking won’t help when there’s still only 2 good teams in the game.

-The Truth Hurts

Edit: This was a catalyst for conversation, however it is true for the general population. The game needs competition and there are several ways to bring this about, but the most consistent – in my opinion – is to try to develop a community that helps each other improve so that when new players enter the game they have the resources to learn the game with as little frustration as possible.

^ This is so true and to the point. Its not even funny but true. What anet needs to realize is when people aren’t at that good at something(specially pvp) they stray away and move onto something. What usually keeps them around is there are other pvp modes their teams can play. Just like in gw1, not everyone was good at the matchmaking GvG or the best team, but they still had HA, RA, TA etc… The fact that there is only one game mode for every kind of pvp you have in this game; frees, paids, hotjoins, people get bored. Even your top players are getting tired of waiting anet, and if your entire pvp community leaves, what will you guys do anet?

+1
Get good NA.

Narcarsis.5739:

People suck at PvP.

Results:
-No competition.
-No incentive.
-No fun.

Matchmaking won’t help when there’s still only 2 good teams in the game.

-The Truth Hurts

Bold for emphasis. No point in getting better when this game is about making face-roll team compositions around “Objectives.”

Schwahrheit.4203:

Narcarsis.5739:

People suck at PvP.

Results:
-No competition.
-No incentive.
-No fun.

Matchmaking won’t help when there’s still only 2 good teams in the game.

-The Truth Hurts

Bold for emphasis. No point in getting better when this game is about making face-roll team compositions around “Objectives.”

qft

yeah umm.. the reason is not because people suck at pvp. it’s because there’s no incentive. a lot of people don’t take the pvp seriously because the pvp is designed in such a fashion that it all seems like it’s

just for fun

when you have that feeling, there is no incentive to get better. so the source of why people suck is no incentive.

When there is no competition there is no incentive or fun.

There is no competition because people suck at PvP.

Narcarsis.5739:

When there is no competition there is no incentive or fun.

There is no competition because people suck at PvP.

ok now you’re just plain wrong… or trolling. either way i’m out lol

he’s right unfortunately lol

8 team queues ruined NA tbh. 98% winrate teams in every tourny leaving no room for anyone else. #frontrunnersyndrome

leashmaygoss.2140:

he’s right unfortunately lol

he’s wrong lol. the reason there is no competition and the reason everyone seems to suck is because the pvp in the game isn’t serious. there is no ladder, no rating, no stats. just a rank that shows you’ve put 700 hours into the game.

when they add more incentive, people will start striving to be better at pvp.. not only that, but good pvpers from other games will be attracted to the game and start playing here.

right now we just have a bunch of carebears logging in to pvp for fun and they don’t care about being “good” at all, because there is no reward for being good.

You might have this feeling after this change becouse alot of players from “hotjoin” have moved into paids. So the quality is very low.
But with help and time, those will grow as all of us did and there will be more players involved into paid scene.
Wasnt this what most of us asked for?

For most people getting good at anything takes a lot of time and lots and lots of practice.

But every choice carries with it an opportunity cost. One can choose to allocate their time to becoming exceptional at a game like GW2 but the time that one spends on GW2 is necessarily time that isn’t spent doing something else.

So the question is: why would someone spend lots and lots of time practicing in GW2 when they could be spending it on any number of other games and/or activities?

If you want good GW2 players you have to give people a reason to spend large amounts of time practicing GW2. I believe it is, as has already been said, a problem of incentives.

Ok im gonna act like a wierdo, but there is no other way to explain it to you.

This is the conversation of a Casual and Esport player:

Casual: Hey “esport player”
Esport: Hey “casual player”
Casual: I’ve been playing GW2 and its fun mate.
Esport: Ya well, me dont care.
Casual: Has pvp, good pivipi!
Esport: Me play fo money, has it has money?!!!!!!!!
Casual: No money yet, but soon™, they promised!!!!!
Esport: Me money play, No money No play.

I know but is freaking true.

Pharexys.4280:

Ok im gonna act like a wierdo, but there is no other way to explain it to you.

This is the conversation of a Casual and Esport player:

Casual: Hey “esport player”
Esport: Hey “casual player”
Casual: I’ve been playing GW2 and its fun mate.
Esport: Ya well, me dont care.
Casual: Has pvp, good pivipi!
Esport: Me play fo money, has it has money?!!!!!!!!
Casual: No money yet, but soon™, they promised!!!!!
Esport: Me money play, No money No play.

I know but is freaking true.

exactly

Powerr.3649:

8 team queues ruined NA tbh. 98% winrate teams in every tourny leaving no room for anyone else. #frontrunnersyndrome

good joke

Oh my god the game is meant to be played for fun!!! Get the pitchforks out guys I think it’s time to go hunt some witches….

Seriously, if you’re not enjoying playing the game then why play? Play for fun and you’ll have a lot more.. well, fun.

V Man.8512:

Oh my god the game is meant to be played for fun!!! Get the pitchforks out guys I think it’s time to go hunt some witches….

Seriously, if you’re not enjoying playing the game then why play? Play for fun and you’ll have a lot more.. well, fun.

er… don’t be such a carebear. competitive pvpers and esport teams get “fun” out of competition… they don’t find it “fun” just to pvp for no reason, except for maybe like 30 mins.

it’s fun when your time means something… and don’t just say “stop playing the game then”

we like the game and see it’s potential, thats why we keep criticizing it. if we really disliked it, we would be gone in a heartbeat.

It must be lonely at the top.

If you think people are so terrible, why don’t you invest time to help the community get better?

No Incentive

When the game is bad, you blame the player, obv.

TwoBit.5903:

When the game is bad, you blame the player, obv.

lmfao

I wont argue that this game needs better incentives it really does and I also wont argue that this game needs more options and game modes that cater and attract more casual players, because that’s what spvp needs MORE people.

this is why games like LOL are so popular, easy to play hard to master and F2P so its a casual players gold mine while still able to cater to the hardcore and appeal to the e-sport crowd

Anet does not have this niche . at least not yet they don’t, so they need to work on attracting more players to pvp before any thing else atm and a good start would be making more game modes and making your spvp more appealing to new players because making the spvp just around a small group of players is bad for business.

I’d like to join in to this conversation as a average player who more often than not is down the lower end of players.
People suck at pvp because the current balance of the game is frustrating beyond all reason to learn.
Those of you that were already good sat around the top and learned quickly, for those of us that want to learn we play for a little and get frustrated and leave.
Why is that you may ask?
Because in every single patch, nerf after nerf someone finds a build of a class somewhere that has the simple premise of ‘If your opponent isn’t quick enough or doesn’t know how to counter it yet he dies… instantly. Basically a build that is easy to do well with (if in some cases hard to do very well with) and whose difficulty is only made by facing opponents who have already learnt to counter the iwin button’
First it was 100blades, then it was backstab thieves, now its d/d elementalists and shatter mesmers.

Now of course I could learn to stop these builds… and over time I do. The problem really kicks into gear when it becomes common knowledge and suddenly a 16 person match contains 5 elementalists and 7 mesmers….
Taking from my own experience I know I can use x/y/z to counter that mesmers ‘look at me spam clones and shatter while I GS zap you’ but I then proceed to die to the other 3 mesmers cause hey look, my skills and dodges are all gone and without the mitigating abilities you instantly die. Because the build takes skill to avoid but only takes skill to pull off if you are against someone who already has the necessary skill to avoid it in the first place.
This is frustrating. This turns people off wanting to learn the game. When almost everybody in hotjoins is running the same FOTM insta gibb builds and it is physically impossible to have enough access to skills and dodges to not die over and over again you really cease wanting to play, and without that experience no one gets better and if no one gets better the player base at the top stagnates gets boring and then they start leaving

TheAngryLlama.7641:

I’d like to join in to this conversation as a average player who more often than not is down the lower end of players.
People suck at pvp because the current balance of the game is frustrating beyond all reason to learn.
Those of you that were already good sat around the top and learned quickly, for those of us that want to learn we play for a little and get frustrated and leave.
Why is that you may ask?
Because in every single patch, nerf after nerf someone finds a build of a class somewhere that has the simple premise of ‘If your opponent isn’t quick enough or doesn’t know how to counter it yet he dies… instantly. Basically a build that is easy to do well with (if in some cases hard to do very well with) and whose difficulty is only made by facing opponents who have already learnt to counter the iwin button’
First it was 100blades, then it was backstab thieves, now its d/d elementalists and shatter mesmers.

Now of course I could learn to stop these builds… and over time I do. The problem really kicks into gear when it becomes common knowledge and suddenly a 16 person match contains 5 elementalists and 7 mesmers….
Taking from my own experience I know I can use x/y/z to counter that mesmers ‘look at me spam clones and shatter while I GS zap you’ but I then proceed to die to the other 3 mesmers cause hey look, my skills and dodges are all gone and without the mitigating abilities you instantly die. Because the build takes skill to avoid but only takes skill to pull off if you are against someone who already has the necessary skill to avoid it in the first place.
This is frustrating. This turns people off wanting to learn the game. When almost everybody in hotjoins is running the same FOTM insta gibb builds and it is physically impossible to have enough access to skills and dodges to not die over and over again you really cease wanting to play, and without that experience no one gets better and if no one gets better the player base at the top stagnates gets boring and then they start leaving

a fair point my friend. i think another problem is.. in hot join like you said.. they are all mesmers and eles and kitten. and it’s almost impossible to fight them in a team fight situation.. there will be over 20 clones on the battlefield and it’s too much too handle. it’s discouraging, even though they are just clones, to see 20+ players on the field in front of you. I honestly think the clone mechanic along with the pets necros can summon are a bad design for pvp… but that’s just my opinion. every mesmer seems to disagree with it

Narcarsis.5739:

People suck at PvP.

Results:
-No competition.
-No incentive.
-No fun.

Matchmaking won’t help when there’s still only 2 good teams in the game.

-The Truth Hurts

nah gw2 pvp is dead because:

pugs face premades
hot join is zerg fest
quitters are not punished
no middle ground for mid tier players
4v5 games in tournament for solo/duo queuers
no skill based ranking
one boring game mode

TwoBit.5903:

When the game is bad, you blame the player, obv.

lol this reminds me of warhammer fanbois. “Guys they gave us a great game you just aren’t playing it right” resulting from people complaining how boring RvR was and how it was just circle zerging keeps/towers since that was rewarded the most.

hey here is a crazy tougth… maybe maybe this pvp sucks and not too many ppl are interested .. oh and its not dying it was never alive.

Sprawl.3891:

Narcarsis.5739:

People suck at PvP.

Results:
-No competition.
-No incentive.
-No fun.

Matchmaking won’t help when there’s still only 2 good teams in the game.

-The Truth Hurts

nah gw2 pvp is dead because:

pugs face premades
hot join is zerg fest
quitters are not punished
no middle ground for mid tier players
4v5 games in tournament for solo/duo queuers
no skill based ranking
one boring game mode

I only hotjoin sPVP and I can tell you from a gladiator WoW player here, that if people had to face gladiators in large group battles, you may have some people getting owned 1v1. But when decent random teams (usually ranked like 1800-2000) face gladiator teams (2200+) they got facerolled. For this to happen on a daily basis in paids (which is what I hear) would make me stop queueing until a RANKING system was put into place.

Good players should not be stomping the newbies out of the game, there MUST be a ranking system, because then the good players will actually want to pvp because they know they will be facing a good team.

The mechanics in this game are better than WoW, but the PVP is complete garbage.

You have one game mode…

Back in September people actually tried to play the game, by holding nodes etc…nowadays it is literally like 99% zergfest in hotjoin (where the majority of people pvp in this game).

Any class can do fine when it is like 5v2 or 6v3. Zerging is a huge issue, because it discourages everything. NO matter what build you are, you’re about to get owned because your team is just bad.

At least use some of the concepts from WoW like ctf, make bosses not be able to get solo’d by anyone… remember when you needed at least like 20 people at the end of AB to take down the boss? And even then you might get wiped.

*You should need at least 50% of the game to to take down a boss, or even sav/chief for that matter.

Skill based ranking is another thing, do you honestly think I am going to PVP for fun? It is called an incentive…give us incentives for rank to unlock the cooler looking armor, you are not changing the playing field, but you are giving us something to look forward to. <—- simple fix that would greatly kick start any ranking system that ANET hopefully imposes.

Good day.

Are you sure its not just because sPvP is just plain dull with the same game mode 24/7 which forces the meta of guardian bunkers and mesmers?

Royce.6835:

er… don’t be such a carebear. competitive pvpers and esport teams get “fun” out of competition… they don’t find it “fun” just to pvp for no reason, except for maybe like 30 mins.

it’s fun when your time means something… and don’t just say “stop playing the game then”

we like the game and see it’s potential, thats why we keep criticizing it. if we really disliked it, we would be gone in a heartbeat.

That mentality, and the people that hold it are so very sad.

Is it just me or does the average American have a shorter attention span than the average European? Europe’s player base has shrunk as well but it’s still totally playable.

It seems the American sPvP scene has just completely died by the sound of things. The exact same thing happened in Bloodline Champions. The queues for the US servers in BLC are so long; there are almost no teams left. To be fair that game is just dying generally but it happened on the US servers much sooner.

Do Americans just get bored of things more quickly? Or do they tend to move onto other games sooner? Maybe it’s a money thing… If you have more money, you can afford to play lots of different games in quick succession. If you have less money, you’re more likely to really savour the experience of what you can afford.

This is purely speculation of course as I’m basing this on a trend that I’ve only seen in 2 games. And for the record, I’m not anti-American. It’s just a cultural observation! I speak as a Brit and we tend to have short attention spans too. Maybe the cause is the same.

Narcarsis.5739:

People suck at PvP.

Results:
-No competition.
-No incentive.
-No fun.

Matchmaking won’t help when there’s still only 2 good teams in the game.

-The Truth Hurts

I’m glad you have four friends of equal skill level that are continually online to face stomp anyone you play against. Consider that half the population is bad and half are decent to above average. Of course the bads will be bad.. and this is inevitable in any game. But the problem with games such as this is that the good players are further segregated into who has a core group of competent other good player friends to run with and those who basically just pug.

I’m sure there are alot of talented players out there that are pugging tournies and are getting face stomped. You probably don’t realize it because the majority of time you are squashing them in 1v2 and 1v3 matchups all over the map because their pug teams are just wilting and your rotations are perfect. Catch those players 1v1 and your success becomes average and they likely beat you.

So no, the answer is not that all people playing the game suck. The answer is that not all people are able to group with four other people and face stomp. It is a classic case of the rich get richer. And it is so true. Those that have, faceroll and will continue to do so. Those that pug…will continue to get facerolled no matter how good they are because it’s a team game and you will not beat five competent players using voice playing regularly.

To solve – match making with some kind of skill matchup. This will work. Sure there will be one team that rises above the rest. If that is you…congratulations…but the rest of the teams in the 90 to 100% echelon will still have very viable and very competitive matches playing against other well coordinated teams.

This current setup is just complete fail. With the law of averages the best teams likely face another competent team 1 out of 10 or even 20 times in tourny matchups. This leads to the faceroll feeling and the boringness of pvp. Imagine the 19 teams u just facerolled too… wow… they likely just give up and don’t even play anymore. Leaving in their wake 19 more completely noob teams trying tournies for the first time to get facerolled.

Eventually there is a light at the end of this tunnel.

A – matchmaking comes into place and while the upper echelon may have longer que times…they will be matched against other upper echelon teams for competitive play. Lower level players will get better at the game playing against same level competition and learning the incremental steps that must be taken to just edge out their opponent. They won’t give up from being roflstomped in the first five seconds of the match.

B – anet does nothing…eventually the lower level players give up entirely…only upper echelon players remain…they get bored…they leave too… no one is left… game is dead.

MATCHMAKING – it is absolutely necessary.

Xiomaro.2563:

Is it just me or does the average American have a shorter attention span than the average European?
Do Americans just get bored of things more quickly? Or do they tend to move onto other games sooner?

Yup.
Culture of ADD/Instant gratification.

Xiomaro.2563:

Is it just me or does the average American have a shorter attention span than the average European? Europe’s player base has shrunk as well but it’s still totally playable.

It seems the American sPvP scene has just completely died by the sound of things. The exact same thing happened in Bloodline Champions. The queues for the US servers in BLC are so long; there are almost no teams left. To be fair that game is just dying generally but it happened on the US servers much sooner.

Do Americans just get bored of things more quickly? Or do they tend to move onto other games sooner? Maybe it’s a money thing… If you have more money, you can afford to play lots of different games in quick succession. If you have less money, you’re more likely to really savour the experience of what you can afford.

This is purely speculation of course as I’m basing this on a trend that I’ve only seen in 2 games. And for the record, I’m not anti-American. It’s just a cultural observation! I speak as a Brit and we tend to have short attention spans too. Maybe the cause is the same.

NA players have higher standards and less patience for overpromising and underdelivering

I wish I sold cars in Europe.

“Here you guy sir a shiney new car!”
“thanks this is awesome!”
“no prob!”
“hey wait i thought you said this would be able to compete in races”
“oh yes sir it sure will, i can’t tell you how right now but it will soon”
“oh ok sounds good”
“err wait this other car has all these features i thought this one would have”
“oh yes sir, but you see that car has been out for 7 years, ours is brand new, so give us 7 years”
“oh ok i watched a video of that other car anyway and it looked boring but “um wait it only has 1 gear mode?”
“yes we will look into adding more gears in the future but our focus is on airbags”
“shouldnt air bags be a core feature”
“sir did you see how awesome the horn sounds”
“oh wow this is great car!”

American version

“here you go sir shiney new car”
“wheres my murica power V8 you promised?”
“sorry sir we did not have time to implement that feature”
*refund

Sprawl.3891:

“oh yes sir, but you see that car has been out for 7 years, ours is brand new, so give us 7 years”

now that is classic!

The eSports scene is much larger in Europe. Something in the water, maybe? Extrapolating from that, it’s reasonable that the region with a larger pool or players would have more people willing to stick around.

Instead of ruing the facets of a certain culture, isn’t better to find ways to accommodate it? I’m sure teams of more successful game companies take the entirety of their audience into account and build around them. In my opinion, the type of mentality that creates threads like these and the derogatory sentiments within do little to help.

TwoBit.5903:

The eSports scene is much larger in Europe. Something in the water, maybe? Extrapolating from that, it’s reasonable that the region with a larger pool or players would have more people willing to stick around.

Instead of ruing the facets of a certain culture, isn’t better to find ways to accommodate it? I’m sure teams of more successful game companies take the entirety of their audience into account and build around them. In my opinion, the type of mentality that creates threads like these and the derogatory sentiments within do little to help.

i think it has more to do with not being many good alternatives and euros seem to be willing to keep playing something that’s bad rather than play nothing. I’d rather play nothing.

I get that you’re frustrated with not finding a team, but what did you look to accomplish out of making this thread? It just makes the problem worse.

I can’t find a team because there is a lack of good players in PvP.

So, in short: yes.

so make a thread saying you’re looking for a team or looking for players to start a team.

When a new, or any player, opens up this thread, do you think they are more or less likely to play pvp? Probably less.

If they want to PvP they’ll play regardless. If anyone believes everything they read on the internet without checking it for themselves then they will have a lot of difficulty down the road.

Narcarsis.5739:

If they want to PvP they’ll play regardless. If anyone believes everything they read on the internet without checking it for themselves then they will have a lot of difficulty down the road.

Why don’t you try psychology instead of wasting time on a game ?

You’ll surely have a brilliant carreer, you have a great feel for it.

Mrbig.8019:

You’ll surely have a brilliant carreer, you have a great feel for it.

I already do, but continue to assume things about people over the internet. I’m sure it makes your feel better about yourself ^^

i just want to input something from a not top player but i like to think i’m not awful :P . the way the paid tourney is (the 8 team tourney) is very disheartening. You que in knowing you can beat most meh teams but you hit tp/pz/dtc/alfa in the first round get kitten and then you have to wait for the next round of paids. or if not first round you have a good chance to get them second round. Getting kitten by these teams does nothing to help learning. you never got an edge the whole game to know where to improve on you just come away going well we just need to be better in every way. Which is true, But this does not allow for a smooth learning curve and for players to enjoy getting better. Right now we have to smash our heads against a brick wall in hope that some how someday many paid tickets later we will get a win against a team that has been playing together for far longer than we have. I’m not saying we should win I’m saying we need to go against teams our level and get better gradually rather than having to fight a titan first time and get smashed.

Its just not fun.
Only one spvp mode and its not fun.
Maps are convoluted and confusing so that scares new players, and are not fun.

They should have started with Death match, we already have conquest mode with wvwvw.

@ The OP i understand you are frustrated and want the chance to play the best and thats not happening but i think saying NA players suck is a bit harsh lol

The main problem is untill observe and rankings implemented Just not gonna happen
Also you can play the best euros when proper monthlies arrive with QP

I suggest just chillin n wait to see what happens jon (chaplin) allready mention a blog coming about spvp anytime

Narcarsis.5739:

Mrbig.8019:

You’ll surely have a brilliant carreer, you have a great feel for it.

I already do, but continue to assume things about people over the internet. I’m sure it makes your feel better about yourself ^^

I’m happy you’re having a brilliant career, but don’t assume facts about what other people will or won’t do.

All this “QQing” about the lack of competition, no incentives and stuffs simply drives away people from taking the PvP in this game seriously, or even believing it will get any more serious than it is now ( because this game currently has tons of e-sport potentials, as long as they tune builds/proffs and find a decent way to get competition right).

If people keep on talking about " how bad, how bla, how bleh, how crap " this game is, people will slowly start to believe it that way, even if it isn’t true.

This thing, in psychology, is called self-fulfilling phropecy , and you would be ASTOUNISHED knowing how strong this effect is in reality.

Basically, rants like this only damage the game image in consumers’ eyes, and damage people like you who are supposed to want to have good players around them in order to form a team.

Follidus is right, and you’re wrong.

If you want to find a team, and have skilled people around to play with, create a thread with constructive criticism in it to find out WHY there are no skilled PvPers in this game, WHY there are no incentives, WHY there’s no real competition, and try to find a solution for it.

Hopefully aNet will take a look, listen to you, and we’ll all be happy.

But what you’re actually doing is simply the act of a kid who’s crying because he doesn’t have friends to play with.

I have offered to help people, improve the game, and raise the skill cap. The issue is that people aren’t willing to improve, very few people took me up on my offer.

I also never said the game was bad. It’s a great game, and far more dynamic than the general population realizes. But when people get stomped in games they leave, reducing the amount of players in the queue. Eventually it gets to a point where people either fight the same players, or stomp new players forcing them to quit. When there are only 2 good teams matchmaking will force them to play each other over and over again until one gets bored and quits (this is how matchmaking works, they will climb higher and higher and no one will be able to catch up). While new players will slowly start to get better and be in a good environment the competitive/advanced players will slowly leave the game due to lack of competition. From there you either get lucky and find the newer players surpassing the older generation, or they will become capped and the cycle continues. The game needs multiple teams are able to compete at a higher level, so that it causes the meta to form (it won’t happen when it’s just 2 teams) and evolve. Issue with that is that there aren’t enough good players at the moment to form these teams. It’s critical for the game’s health and needs to be assessed.

P.S. Self Fulfilling Prophecy is a sociological term.

^. He has a good point. If matchmaking were to come out the top 2 teams would hopefully rated number 1 and 2. But the rank 3 and 4 teams wouldn’t even feel as if they are worth that rank jut because the competition other than those two teams is mediocore. Those two teams would almost feel as if nothing has changed if matchmaking were to come out because the top 10 teams face each other. But of the top 10 only 2 are really good. The only reason the others are top 10 because there is no other good competition out there anymore. A lot of the top players have left. Maybe they will come back or maybe not. Since there is no subscription fee, there might be a possibility.

Rezz.8019:

It’s dead because all “top” NA players do the following in paid tourneys:
- start the match as mesmer -> drop timewarp -> change class -> have another person in team reroll to mesmer -> drop timewarp -> repeat and have timewarp there for each time fight = lots of qualifier points to show off to other 5-6 teams that still play PvP.

No one worth anything does this.