Guild Wars 2

Here is what I HOPED the blog post to look like. Some of these statements that I made up may not even fall in line with what Anet believes, but I guess in my own world, this is the way I had envisioned it:

Hi, we here at Anet just wanted to take a moment to let all of you know what is currently in the works and some of our thoughts on the state of SPvP.

First and foremost, let me start by saying that we here at Anet love this game. We know that those of you who are on these forums and constantly providing feedback also love this game. So, please understand that we share a common interest. Having said that, here are some things we are discussing.

Balance: We have been carefully taking a look at the meta data and we do indeed see some things that need attention. At this current time we can’t state exactly what these changes may be, but please be assured that we are playing the same game as you and our data allows to even go deeper than that. Of course we see class X that is suddenly being heavily played where it wasn’t at the start. Of course we play TPvP and we see how class Y is featured more often than others. What we here at Anet need to determine however is: are classes X and Y truly broken or is it an issue with people not understanding counters. We are actively working day and night to make that determination.

Ladders / Rankings: We are currently in the process of implementing these things. We don’t have all the kinks worked out yet, but they are definitely in the pipeline and we understand how important this is the the sustainability of SPvP. Be patient my friends, we want this feature as much as you.

TPvP Pugs vs Premades: We currently see this as an issue but we believe that our new introduction of paid tournaments will help to alleviate many of these issues. Most of the great teams don’t like facerolling pugs, to the same degree that you don’t like being facerolled by them. We think that a large percentage of these great teams will start entering paid tournaments which should reduce the issues here. Having said that, we also are working on a system that will try to keep fully premade groups from constantly facing off against fully pug groups (because we know paid tournaments aren’t going to fix this 100%). Please keep in mind however that queue times are also a concern. We don’t want to put in place a fix for this that then in turn causes insane queue times. Just know, we are working on this.

Duels – We know most players want to be able to duel. It is a great way to test your build and be able to find good counters for 1v1 battles. This options is currently only available by joining an empty hot-join match. We are looking to implement this feature soon and it is definitely in the works. In the meantime, please continue to utilize the empty room strategy.

New Game Modes: This is something we hear constant feedback about. We are planning on implimenting more game modes in the future, but currently we are focusses on conquest for our E-sport crowd. We want to perfect this game mode and have it be the staple of our E-sport crowd. We do plan on adding other game modes for hot-join and even look at expanding our TPvP in the future to add these game modes. We understand that many of the people playing this game don’t do so in professional / ultra-competitive mode and many people play for fun alone. For those of you, I assure you we have plans for you and aren’t neglecting your desires.

Hot-Join with friends: This one is a bit touchy. We fully understand the desire to play with people you know, but we also find hot-join to be a system where we don’t want premades dominating new players and pugs. We do think it’s important to play with 1 or even 2 people you know, but were looking at the effects this may have on the overall hot-join experience. If we can determine that by adding the ability to stay with friends in a party, that it won’t cause negitive effects. Of course we’ll add it.

Spectator Mode: This feature is vital to E-sports and streaming. We will be adding this soon.

Bug Fixes: This one is a no-brainer but needs to be stated. We monitor the forums and we play the game. We see bugs constantly and we are squashing them as they arise. Please, continue to report bugs in an appropriate way and we’ll continue to address them.

SPvP Glory Gains: We currently see that the way players accumulate glory in hot-join PvP is discouraging team play. We find that zerging is rewarded while defensive team-play is punished. We are looking at ways to alter the scoring system to encourage players to win.

Final thoughts. There may be a few things that are important to you that were not mentioned here. If that’s the case, it’s not because it’s not important to us. Again, we love this game as much if not more than you do. It is our baby after all. Please continue to be patient with us as we address all of our concerns. We want this game to succeed and its long term success is reliant upon proper planning and implementation. If you see a feature that isn’t added right away, chances are, we’re still finding the most appropriate way to add it.

Thanks to all who frequent these forums. Your input is vital to the process and we don’t take your desires lightly.

See you in game!

If only that was the blog post. And it took you what 5-10min? Not even that?

Instead what we get was information that we already knew about and didn’t care about.

We could have some real fun and see how long it takes to translate that into another langue. Still bet it takes less then a week.

I guess I don’t really see how what you wrote and what they wrote were so different that it warranted ANOTHER thread on the subject.

EDIT: The only difference may be the balance paragraph, and even still I think they said the same thing but with a positive spin on it.

Sky.9347:

I guess I don’t really see how what you wrote and what they wrote were so different that it warranted ANOTHER thread on the subject.

EDIT: The only difference may be the balance paragraph, and even still I think they said the same thing but with a positive spin on it.

You really don’t see a difference? How could you not see a difference. What A.Net said was nothing but hot air, it had no substance at all. It was just a way for them to buy some time.

Sky.9347:

I guess I don’t really see how what you wrote and what they wrote were so different that it warranted ANOTHER thread on the subject.

Again, for me it’s all about wording. I understand that there are many many features that are desired and not all of them can be added. I just see a blog post centered around 2 paid features and barely, some not at all, addressing other key issues. I just felt as the post was more of a way to announce two additional ways people can spend money and not a means to quell the unrest of many people.

If the priority was

Ladder > private servers > spec mode

I’d have been happy with it.

But at the moment its

paid tournies > private servers > w/e next.

Which is not half as pleasing.

Hsulf.9370:

If the priority was

Ladder > private servers > spec mode

I’d have been happy with it.

I would have preferred – Balance – Ladders – Spec Mode. But to each their own

That was really well put,

The private/rent servers will probably promote third party Leagues. Reminds me of the good old days where i had to scour iRC to find someone to scrim or the CAL leagues for Counter-strike.

Hsulf.9370:

If the priority was

Ladder > private servers > spec mode

I’d have been happy with it.

But at the moment its

paid tournies > private servers > w/e next.

Which is not half as pleasing.

Right now is more like Paid >>>> Fun. That’s the root of the whole issue.

Well I can see that your priorities are different in this post than theirs, but really…

You seem to think “balance” is the utmost pressing issue right now.
ANet seems to think giving more experienced/skilled players a place to play, thus separating them from newer or less skillful players is the utmost pressing issue right now.

Seems like two takes on the same problem.

You seem to think rank (leaderboards) are more important than custom arenas.
ANet seems to think custom arenas are more important than leaderboards.

They said they know leaderboards, spectating, streaming are important. They said “we are listening”. They said they would love to say more but they just can’t, yet.

So, outside of the fact that you disagree with their priority, how is your post that different? A lot of the stuff you put in your post has already been addressed by ANet, and the blog just focused on the immediate future.

ShRNA.4376:

Right now is more like Paid >>>> Fun. That’s the root of the whole issue.

Yep agreed.

The problem is with

Paid Tournies > Private servers

All this means is, comparative to now, is that I can play vs more organised teams (with more of a que time I suppose). But still there’s no ranking.

On the flip side, Private Servers which is the best of the two, means you can train etc and play vs other teams.

But what for!? We have nothing to train for at the moment.

It only leaves open outside sources to create tournaments like Dragon Arena etc, but then again you can’t get paid for streams and I reckon prize pools is a touchy subject also.

The two primary development options don’t compliment themselves well enough and I don’t think it will actually change anything in it’s current state. It’s not going to get everyone back playing instantly.

Plus it will take time for anet time to implement both of these, and time to implement both of the next two functions i.e ladder/spec mode, whatever it may be.

At complete speculation I’d say 1 month for paid tournies and private servers, then another 2 months for ladders/spec modes, whatever it may be.

So at a good guess 3 months minimum before any form of rated stuff appears?

Baring in mind it took 3 weeks for this mini blog post, they still haven’t ironed out all the bugs in spvp, wvwvw, pve, I don’t think 3 months is far off from a minimum for proper ranked tournaments/ladder.

Are people gonna stick around happy with the game for that long?

I know i’ve been very vocal on a few of these threads, but that’s only because I see great potential in this game. But that’s all it is, potential. iI love gw2, but the next featues ANET create are going to be very important to the future of the game, I just hope they make the right choices or it could be a very very tough ride.

Sky.9347:

Well I can see that your priorities are different in this post than theirs, but really…

You seem to think “balance” is the utmost pressing issue right now.
ANet seems to think giving more experienced/skilled players a place to play, thus separating them from newer or less skillful players is the utmost pressing issue right now.

Seems like two takes on the same problem.

You seem to think rank (leaderboards) are more important than custom arenas.
ANet seems to think custom arenas are more important than leaderboards.

They said they know leaderboards, spectating, streaming are important. They said “we are listening”. They said they would love to say more but they just can’t, yet.

So, outside of the fact that you disagree with their priority, how is your post that different? A lot of the stuff you put in your post has already been addressed by ANet, and the blog just focused on the immediate future.

You do understand that for “pro-teams” to even play in the Paid Tournies they have to either pay RM to do so or they have to play Free Tournies. Adding Paid Tournies will in no way separate the two groups.

You can’t have competitive pvp with out a ranking system. It just will not work. Do you really think the “pro-teams” are going to be happy crushing bad teams all the time in Paid Tournies? Do you think its going to be fun for the middle of the ground teams to play teams that are way better than them? How do you get better if you don’t play teams of equal level. Its like asking high school teams to play in the NFL, and then telling them they suck because they don’t get better. You don’t become a better player by getting crushed, you get better by playing vs equal skills players. It gives you time to see what your doing what the other players are doing and gives you a means of seeing improvement.

Angry Flying Squirrel.3041:

Sky.9347:

Well I can see that your priorities are different in this post than theirs, but really…

You seem to think “balance” is the utmost pressing issue right now.
ANet seems to think giving more experienced/skilled players a place to play, thus separating them from newer or less skillful players is the utmost pressing issue right now.

Seems like two takes on the same problem.

You seem to think rank (leaderboards) are more important than custom arenas.
ANet seems to think custom arenas are more important than leaderboards.

They said they know leaderboards, spectating, streaming are important. They said “we are listening”. They said they would love to say more but they just can’t, yet.

So, outside of the fact that you disagree with their priority, how is your post that different? A lot of the stuff you put in your post has already been addressed by ANet, and the blog just focused on the immediate future.

You do understand that for “pro-teams” to even play in the Paid Tournies they have to either pay RM to do so or they have to play Free Tournies. Adding Paid Tournies will in no way separate the two groups.

You can’t have competitive pvp with out a ranking system. It just will not work. Do you really think the “pro-teams” are going to be happy crushing bad teams all the time in Paid Tournies? Do you think its going to be fun for the middle of the ground teams to play teams that are way better than them? How do you get better if you don’t play teams of equal level. Its like asking high school teams to play in the NFL, and then telling them they suck because they don’t get better. You don’t become a better player by getting crushed, you get better by playing vs equal skills players. It gives you time to see what your doing what the other players are doing and gives you a means of seeing improvement.

Yes, I understand. But really by the time a “pro-team” is ready for paid tournaments, they should have quite a few tickets saved up from all the other PvP they’ve done. And if they are that good, they will likely win often. And if they are getting crushed, they will go back to free tournaments to practice and get more tickets. And if they are doing the crushing they will rent a server (maybe even with their winnings?!) and challenge other good teams for some serious practice/bragging rights.

Yea, rank is important. So is spectating (probably my most desired feature atm). But seriously ANet has limited resources and they have made a decision to prioritize certain things. Let’s not be petulant.

Last I checked, DotA 2 doesn’t have rankings, just hidden brackets so you can kind of match up against people who are at a similar skill level. Pubs also don’t matter.

All of the competitive/e-sports events in DotA 2 take place in private matches. Then, the match-making is up to a community that wants to sponsor tournaments held on their private server.

So, really, a matchmaking/ranking/ladder system is often just something for casuals or non-competitive players to dink around in. Actual e-sports take place in private arenas organized by third parties.

Kind of makekittenlad private servers are coming up right after the paid tournaments. In the interim, paid tournies will be a better opportunity for more serious PvPers to play against more serious PvPers more often. Then, custom arenas will allow serious teams to scrim one another privately, and third parties will be able to start looking into organizing tournaments on their servers. Then, when spectator mode arrives, the foundation will be in place for actual e-sports to happen.

That’s how I see it anyway, and it makes all the sense in the world to me.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Last I checked, DotA 2 doesn’t have rankings, just hidden brackets so you can kind of match up against people who are at a similar skill level. Pubs also don’t matter.

All of the competitive/e-sports events in DotA 2 take place in private matches. Then, the match-making is up to a community that wants to sponsor tournaments held on their private server.

So, really, a matchmaking/ranking/ladder system is often just something for casuals or non-competitive players to dink around in. Actual e-sports take place in private arenas organized by third parties.

Kind of makekittenlad private servers are coming up right after the paid tournaments. In the interim, paid tournies will be a better opportunity for more serious PvPers to play against more serious PvPers more often. Then, custom arenas will allow serious teams to scrim one another privately, and third parties will be able to start looking into organizing tournaments on their servers. Then, when spectator mode arrives, the foundation will be in place for actual e-sports to happen.

That’s how I see it anyway, and it makes all the sense in the world to me.

Last I checked Dota 2 is in beta. Are you saying GW2 is still in beta? Also hidden brackets is still better than nothing at all.

@cogbyrn

For a game to be an esport, people have to be able to make money from it by streaming, youtube, tourny winnings, sponsorships, whatever it may be.

Dota doesn’t have these retrictions in place, Gw2 does.

Therefore, even if private servers were opened, you wouldn’t get truely good teams until the money arrives, which won’t happens till they drop the money ball and people can actually make chedda from their product.

Till then we won’t have an esport. You’ll have a great game with private servers with no professional teams playing.

As soon as they drop the money bomb, which will be when the game is balanced, you may even see teams like fnatic and TSM showing up.

But even the most experienced promoters will have issues with the current T&C’s.

This is why comparing Gw2 to Dota, lol, or any competetive game at the moment pales into comparrison, and also why intoroducing private servers without lifting $$$ rectrictions won’t change the current feeling in the community.

Hsulf.9370:

@cogbyrn

For a game to be an esport, people have to be able to make money from it by streaming, youtube, tourny winnings, sponsorships, whatever it may be.

Dota doesn’t have these retrictions in place, Gw2 does.

Therefore, even if private servers were opened, you wouldn’t get truely good teams until the money arrives, which won’t happens till they drop the money ball and people can actually make chedda from their product.

Till then we won’t have an esport. You’ll have a great game with private servers with no professional teams playing.

As soon as they drop the money bomb, which will be when the game is balanced, you may even see teams like fnatic and TSM showing up.

But even the most experienced promoters will have issues with the current T&C’s.

This is why comparing Gw2 to Dota, lol, or any competetive game at the moment pales into comparrison, and also why intoroducing private servers without lifting $$$ rectrictions won’t change the current feeling in the community.

This is true, and it is a shrewd insight.

But I would ask you… do you think it is wise for them to release the hounds (so to speak) before everything is ready? By waiting until they feel the structure is there and the meta is solid, they are hoping the first big eSport invasion will stick. If they don’t do that, they might never get a second chance at becoming an eSport.

Sky.9347:

This is true, and it is a shrewd insight.

But I would ask you… do you think it is wise for them to release the hounds (so to speak) before everything is ready? By waiting until they feel the structure is there and the meta is solid, they are hoping the first big eSport invasion will stick. If they don’t do that, they might never get a second chance at becoming an eSport.

I completley 100000% agree with you. I couldn’t actaully agree more.

On another thread I said i wouldn’t have minded them not saying anything for another two weeks, or even a month, but coming back with something 100% concrete.

All I want to get across is, Anet need to implement a proper strategy and make the right decision on the next feature.

They need to think of content vs keeping the community happy. Also making sure their responses are spot on also.

The marketing and sales guys did the best job possible. They created this buzz around the product and the hype around the game was one of the best I’ve ever seen.

However, now the design team need to deliver, and due to perhaps the content getting rushed (imo probably due to pandas release date), and also due to recent blunders i.e saying a blog then no communication, bugs, general spvp errors with tournies and the weight of expectation, they need to make sure their move is 100% the correct one.

If the community feels let down again and again by introducing stale content, i.e content that doesn’t actually change an iota in game, then they will have a problem.

Also, I’m not sure putting “Less qq more pewpew” at the end of a blog did Jon any favours… no offence Jon.

Hsulf;

Yes, I agree that now is the time for careful, critical, cut-to-the-bone type decisions.

I think they should go ahead with their current plan for paid tourneys and paid servers, and then very carefully choose their next step.

And in my mind, this blog post wasn’t bad at all. A little disapointment I can understand because some player didn’t get his pet project named… but really if we all just take a step back and try to see where they are headed with this, that blog made perfect sense.

I am not a fan boy (I especially want to see these bugs/hacks fixed ASAP), but I do have faith that ANet gives a kitten about this game, and wants it to succeed. I have seen them thus far hold on to their stated design philosophy, and I respect that.

Hsulf.9370:

@cogbyrn

For a game to be an esport, people have to be able to make money from it by streaming, youtube, tourny winnings, sponsorships, whatever it may be.

Dota doesn’t have these retrictions in place, Gw2 does.

Therefore, even if private servers were opened, you wouldn’t get truely good teams until the money arrives, which won’t happens till they drop the money ball and people can actually make chedda from their product.

Till then we won’t have an esport. You’ll have a great game with private servers with no professional teams playing.

As soon as they drop the money bomb, which will be when the game is balanced, you may even see teams like fnatic and TSM showing up.

But even the most experienced promoters will have issues with the current T&C’s.

This is why comparing Gw2 to Dota, lol, or any competetive game at the moment pales into comparrison, and also why intoroducing private servers without lifting $$$ rectrictions won’t change the current feeling in the community.

I thought we were talking about features. You’re absolutely right, but if that’s a T&C problem, then odds are it wouldn’t come from a blog post from the game designer.

So where’s the uproar? People are complaining that they won’t have a ladder, or they won’t have spectator mode, or this class/that class is OP, or that they are disappointed in hot-join scoring. If ANet is going to hammer down on potential third-party revenue as a result of their game, that seems to be a much bigger issue.

Perhaps I missed the thread that has been since lost to the winds of the forum that raised appropriate concern. If so, let’s revive it. Make more noise about the crux of the issue. If this stranglehold suggests that ANet is committing e-sports suicide by trying to control all revenue-creating GW2 content on the internet, where’s the passionate “Ummm… hello?”

Perhaps I missed an important release/ANet addressing that issue already, and if so, I’ll do some searching. However, that doesn’t seem like a feature to me, just a thing that needs to happen for the game to really explode on the scene.

Also, DotA 2 is in beta just like Gmail was in beta for years. I’m starting to think every single game should ship with the stipulation that it’s still in beta for 6 – 12 months even though it’s basically finished. Then, another 6 years down the road, they’ll have to start shipping games in alpha, because people expect the game to be basically finished in beta (sort of how betas now are expected to be free/pre-plays instead of actual beta tests).

But I digress. These threads are getting a little stale, so I’m just going to go enjoy my time elsewhere.