Guild Wars 2

When most people here discuss balance, I keep seeing the discussion of skill cap come up. People compare Effort to Reward and point to some class having to less to achieve the same effect. I see some major flaws in this with regard to balance.

First, high/low skill cap is commonplace among nearly every competitive game. Shooters have easier to use guns, rpgs have easier classes, fighters easier characters, etc. Saying that a skill cap difference is imbalanced is untrue, as players have the option to devote themselves to reach the skill cap to be effective. Note, this does lead to many people rolling particular classes. However, number of played professions does not necessarily have a direct correlation with balance. Just because more people play something because they think something is OP, doesn’t make it so.

Second, while some professions may have to put forth less effort to achieve a particular goal(ie damage output) they are often not providing something that other ones do. Or, they cannot provide it as well as others can. Take, for example, the thief and the elementalist. A thief can run a backstab build and do less to achieve maximum damage output than that of the elementalist. However, that is all the thief contributes is a quick downed state. (note that downed state does not mean a kill, meaning that if a team mate is able to revive you the thief has effectively done nothing) An ele, while going through his damage “rotation” will be utilizing combo fields that are providing boons to nearby allies. The ele is bringing more to the team as a whole than the thief is. Each profession provides effectiveness in a different way. To look at balance in regards to a single aspect(ie damage, longevity) in certain situations is detrimental to balance as a whole.

Lastly, and to digress slightly from the original subject, we should stop considering balance in such limited perspective. There is much more to it than 1v1, and the numbers above the enemies’ head. There is a group synergy to be had among professions, as this is a team game.

You know, I would normally agree with you. The problem is that this stems from Anet’s own wording. They wanted every profession to be viable. Therefore, in my mind, to rectify this each class should have easy to play weapon sets and hard to play sets. But each and every profession should have similar skill caps. To achieve the maximum damage allowed shouldn’t come with a remarkably low skill cap, this should be true for all professions.

Diage.6451:

You know, I would normally agree with you. The problem is that this stems from Anet’s own wording. They wanted every profession to be viable. Therefore, in my mind, to rectify this each class should have easy to play weapon sets and hard to play sets. But each and every profession should have similar skill caps. To achieve the maximum damage allowed shouldn’t come with a remarkably low skill cap, this should be true for all professions.

While I am initially inclined to agree with you, I think that the implementation of this would be extremely challenging. Like I said in the second point, usually the profession working “harder” for the damage output is also giving more to the group. I think that classes giving more should be harder to do that with. My necro runs a power based build and I don’t do as much damage as a thief, nor is it as simple. However, I am also utilizing AoE damage and condition/boon control that is effective for point control and influencing more of the fight as a whole. So shouldn’t it then be harder for me to do large amounts of damage?

I believe that saying the “same” effect is a fallacy in this game. There are so many other variables in each and every situation.

It’s a problem when one class can achieve the same thing with remarkably less effort. Your elementalist example doesn’t address that because your whole point is the elementalist is doing more than just dps even though it takes a lot more work.

Things like HS spam are bad for the game. They allow bad players to be more effective than they should be. Every class should be more like the elementalist and less like the thief.

Eh, you missed a little nuance. I suppose it comes from the fact I wasn’t clear. Each profession, according to Anet, offers you a choice of play style. So a thief is naturally more damage oriented than say a warrior. So their maximum damage potential is higher than that of a warrior, however, the skill to obtain that maximum number should come with relatively equal consequences and be equally as difficult. Now, I said relatively because whats squishy for a warrior is not the same as squishy for a thief due to different mechanics, but if you go full damage, you should have to do so at the loss of other options. This should sound familiar, because it is exactly what you said. But, they should be equally difficult to obtain that relative position among that given profession. Your desire ought to be that a thief, although more damage oriented, shouldn’t max out in their respective field with such a low skill cap. Same can be said with any profession trying to do their thing the best. Example a guardian probably needs to have his skill cap raised for the amount of defense he can offer.

Yukishiro.8792:

It’s a problem when one class can achieve the same thing with remarkably less effort. Your elementalist example doesn’t address that because your whole point is the elementalist is doing more than just dps even though it takes a lot more work.

Things like HS spam are bad for the game. They allow bad players to be more effective than they should be. Every class should be more like the elementalist and less like the thief.

I think you misunderstood the point of the example. The fact that the elementalist is doing more, while aiming for the same goal(damage output) is reason for it to be harder to do. Why should the thief have to do the button gymnastics that the elementalist is doing when they are only downing a single target? The elementalist is providing for his team at the same time, so why should it be easier for him to do high damage?

Sorry, you cannot compare HS spam to an Ele playing to it’s potential, HS spam is not a viable build and is not playing the Thief to it’s max potential. A Thief playing to it’s full potential and an Ele playing to it’s full potential are not a million miles away like people like to make out. It may be harder, but it’s still not hard.

Yes, in theory balance is more than your 1v1 capabilities. That is why an Elementalist is actually quite popular in high-ranking games.

However in practice this isn’t how players evaluate balance. They tend to regard 1v1 capabilities as an indicator of power. And that has quite some merit. Nobody expects to constantly win 1v2s unless they are really confident in their abilities.

And logically, a game that is balanced in 1v1, will also by extension be relatively balanced around 2v2 and 3v3 situations. Especially without dedicated support roles like Healers etc.

Ultimately people will always assess balance based on 1v1 performances and developers would be wise to accept that. It’s much easier to balance out a handful of support skills around group situations than it is to balance entire classes around various situations.

Diage.6451:

Eh, you missed a little nuance. I suppose it comes from the fact I wasn’t clear. Each profession, according to Anet, offers you a choice of play style. So a thief is naturally more damage oriented than say a warrior. So their maximum damage potential is higher than that of a warrior, however, the skill to obtain that maximum number should come with relatively equal consequences and be equally as difficult. Now, I said relatively because whats squishy for a warrior is not the same as squishy for a thief due to different mechanics, but if you go full damage, you should have to do so at the loss of other options. This should sound familiar, because it is exactly what you said. But, they should be equally difficult to obtain that relative position among that given profession. Your desire ought to be that a thief, although more damage oriented, shouldn’t max out in their respective field with such a low skill cap. Same can be said with any profession trying to do their thing the best. Example a guardian probably needs to have his skill cap raised for the amount of defense he can offer.

Well, I don’t see anything wrong with the high damage output being relatively easy to achieve because it is relatively easy to counter. A thief runs in, and blows his load on a player. Said player is downed, I cast signet of undeath and rez downed player. I have effectively countered his easy combo with an easy solution.

Dee Jay.2460:

Yes, in theory balance is more than your 1v1 capabilities. That is why an Elementalist is actually quite popular in high-ranking games.

However in practice this isn’t how players evaluate balance. They tend to regard 1v1 capabilities as an indicator of power. And that has quite some merit. Nobody expects to constantly win 1v2s unless they are really confident in their abilities.

And logically, a game that is balanced in 1v1, will also by extension be relatively balanced around 2v2 and 3v3 situations. Especially without dedicated support roles like Healers etc.

Ultimately people will always assess balance based on 1v1 performances and developers would be wise to accept that. It’s much easier to balance out a handful of support skills around group situations than it is to balance entire classes around various situations.

balance around 1v1 =/= balance around 2v2 or higher. If everything is balanced around 1v1, then it promotes class stacking over more mixed options. The only reason balance around 1v1 is plausible in GW2 is because more important fights are a 1v1 fight. This to be is bad design, but hey, who am I to say. It just means that if you went in with 5 of one thing and everything was balanced around 1v1, then you would have a pretty easy time.

MiniAchilles.4617:

Sorry, you cannot compare HS spam to an Ele playing to it’s potential, HS spam is not a viable build and is not playing the Thief to it’s max potential. A Thief playing to it’s full potential and an Ele playing to it’s full potential are not a million miles away like people like to make out. It may be harder, but it’s still not hard.

I didn’t claim he was running HS. Backstab build is, effectively, one the maximum potential burst builds of the thief. I don’t understand how you are nullifying my argument here. You are acknowledging a skill cap difference, and difference in effectiveness.

Dee Jay.2460:

Yes, in theory balance is more than your 1v1 capabilities. That is why an Elementalist is actually quite popular in high-ranking games.

However in practice this isn’t how players evaluate balance. They tend to regard 1v1 capabilities as an indicator of power. And that has quite some merit. Nobody expects to constantly win 1v2s unless they are really confident in their abilities.

And logically, a game that is balanced in 1v1, will also by extension be relatively balanced around 2v2 and 3v3 situations. Especially without dedicated support roles like Healers etc.

Ultimately people will always assess balance based on 1v1 performances and developers would be wise to accept that. It’s much easier to balance out a handful of support skills around group situations than it is to balance entire classes around various situations.

A game balanced around 1v1 then promotes “sameness” throughout the professions available. When you balance to 1v1, then each class has to have the utility to react to every single situation. Then, you get professions that are all effectively the same with only different spell names and animations.

That would make sense if HS were just dps. But it isn’t. It’s also a gap closer AND a leap finisher. Those combo fields the ele is laying down? They mean nothing if you don’t have finishers. HS is a spammable finisher. Pretty nifty.

O ya, and then when you want to play support or tank your sol because you cant feasibly kill someone or do anything other than help allies get something done. It is the direct opposite of a team game, it would then be a game of 5 individuals. Consider a damage skill which is balanced because it is a highly front loaded damage source but doesn’t 1 hit anyone. Well, if we take two of those then you can easily drop someone even tho that wasn’t the intention. If you balance around 1v1, you won’t have a balanced game.

Yukishiro.8792:

That would make sense if HS were just dps. But it isn’t. It’s also a gap closer AND a leap finisher. Those combo fields the ele is laying down? They mean nothing if you don’t have finishers. HS is a spammable finisher. Pretty nifty.

Kind of grasping at straws there. An ele is constantly finishing his own combo fields, providing himself and others boons or apply condition. The HS is a spammable finisher yes, but is useless as a finisher without a combo field that has to be generated by someone else. (unless the poison field from his ranged is up, then he would only be reapplying an already active condition) So said thief is not generating more without others helping. So his effectiveness remains the same as it was.

No ele spec is constantly finishing its own combo fields. Staff is the only ele weapon with a lot of combo fields, and it has only a few finishers. Scepter uses one single fire field to stack might using multiple finishers but that’s about it. Dagger/dagger has limited combo fields and limited finishing options.

Constantly was a generous word, I’ll admit. However, they can finish their own combo fields, granting boons to others around them. Also, their damage is typically an AoE or a conic output. As opposed to the single damage output of HS. HS really isn’t the ridiculous, awe-inspiring skill people make it out to be.

Edit: they also have utility skills that benefit the team as a whole, and offer more than simple damage output.

What’s ridiculous about HS is how it’s spammable damage + leap + finisher all rolled into one so even very bad players can just press one button and do ok in small engagements. It’s not the ability is overpowered per se it’s that it makes even very bad players marginally competent in small fights in a way that is bad for the game.

tOss.9024:

MiniAchilles.4617:

Sorry, you cannot compare HS spam to an Ele playing to it’s potential, HS spam is not a viable build and is not playing the Thief to it’s max potential. A Thief playing to it’s full potential and an Ele playing to it’s full potential are not a million miles away like people like to make out. It may be harder, but it’s still not hard.

I didn’t claim he was running HS. Backstab build is, effectively, one the maximum potential burst builds of the thief. I don’t understand how you are nullifying my argument here. You are acknowledging a skill cap difference, and difference in effectiveness.

And I never gave any indication I was addressing you directly, my argument was simply that people who play these classes with a higher “skill cap” like to lay on the holier than thou attitude, when there class is hardly difficult to master any way.. It’s a game and not a very hard one at that.

Each class should have different skill caps and reward:effort ratios, but higher effort and skill cap should be rewarded more. Something like a Thief is very 1 dimensional, pretty easy to play and do OK with. Pick up an Ele, and there is a lot more effort required to achieve any results. Thieves tend to only bring damage, and sometimes venoms with the venom share build, while a good ele build brings AoE boons, regen, condition removal on top of their own personal stuff. Maintaining all of this and using it properly requires more effort, but that’s fine because the reward is greater.

I don’t understand too many of the effort vs. reward arguments. I’ve come to see what a class/build brings to the table as a whole, instead of focusing on one element of it. Take the Thief vs. Elementalist. Thieves can provide a bit of control, and plenty of damage, and an AoE stealth but it requires little effort. Elementalists can’t do as much damage, but all of the other stuff they bring to a fight is important, and makes them quite effective in numerous situations. We can’t burn down a bunker like a Thief, but we bring a lot of team support in exchange. The effort:reward ratio for damage is skewed, but looking at the classes as wholes instead shows a clearer picture.

OP,

Your FPS comparison is flawed in that no matter what kit you use, and what gun you have, you still have to aim. If you go with a sniper kit, you need to worry about positioning, concealment, projectile falloff and wind (in some games), etc. If you are close quarter, you need to worry about mobility (strafting), aim (head, chest?) and miscellaneous effects (such as flashlight in the eyes glare). And medium range you have to worry about all that explosive goodness (frag grenades, RPGs, M203s) that are too dangerous in CQC and too short range for sniping.

But all kits share the same basic requirement – your aim has to be good, otherwise you’ll suck with every single kit.

In GW2 this is not the case. You have classes that can do almost passive damage (reflection and retaliation), classes that can do obscene damage with 3-4 keypresses (more than sufficient to kill someone), and then you have classes that have to type like mad monkeys in order to perform mediocre at best.

As an FPS example, imagine a kit that has no full-auto, but also doesn’t gain any extra range or damage. The only difference between you and the other kits is that you need to squeeze off every round manually, possibly screwing your aim, while the other guy can just hold down his mouse button and release bursts or even go full auto. In CQC, you are on uneven footing simply because of it. Similarly, imagine his gun has a 200 round drum, yours is a single shot bolt action. Who’s going to win? The guy who has to reload after every shot, or the guy who can fire 200 rounds without reloading? By this I mean class with cooldowns vs Thief with initiative.

I’m sorry, but this game is very poorly balanced right now. You have absolutely unique mechanics (initiative), classes that don’t require “aim”, and at the same time classes that require heavy “stance-dancing” (Elementalists and Engineers) that have to work extra hard just to have similar effect to someone pressing just 1 button.

Sabbathius.1465:

OP,

Your FPS comparison is flawed in that no matter what kit you use, and what gun you have, you still have to aim. If you go with a sniper kit, you need to worry about positioning, concealment, projectile falloff and wind (in some games), etc. If you are close quarter, you need to worry about mobility (strafting), aim (head, chest?) and miscellaneous effects (such as flashlight in the eyes glare). And medium range you have to worry about all that explosive goodness (frag grenades, RPGs, M203s) that are too dangerous in CQC and too short range for sniping.

But all kits share the same basic requirement – your aim has to be good, otherwise you’ll suck with every single kit.

In GW2 this is not the case. You have classes that can do almost passive damage (reflection and retaliation), classes that can do obscene damage with 3-4 keypresses (more than sufficient to kill someone), and then you have classes that have to type like mad monkeys in order to perform mediocre at best.

As an FPS example, imagine a kit that has no full-auto, but also doesn’t gain any extra range or damage. The only difference between you and the other kits is that you need to squeeze off every round manually, possibly screwing your aim, while the other guy can just hold down his mouse button and release bursts or even go full auto. In CQC, you are on uneven footing simply because of it. Similarly, imagine his gun has a 200 round drum, yours is a single shot bolt action. Who’s going to win? The guy who has to reload after every shot, or the guy who can fire 200 rounds without reloading? By this I mean class with cooldowns vs Thief with initiative.

I’m sorry, but this game is very poorly balanced right now. You have absolutely unique mechanics (initiative), classes that don’t require “aim”, and at the same time classes that require heavy “stance-dancing” (Elementalists and Engineers) that have to work extra hard just to have similar effect to someone pressing just 1 button.

Sure you have to aim, but, as with any fps, some guns have lower skill caps that help when you aren’t the best at aiming. You think the guy in metro running shotgun has to aim as well as the guy using a sv8? No, stick to the center and aim to the middle, win. However, the guy with the sv8 who isn’t getting as many kills is probably scouting down the sides and marking players. (thus the ideal of “effectiveness” balance)In battlefield 3 you can compare more than guns even.(in regards to skill cap) I mean…you don’t have to be a master gamer to wreck kitten with a tank, but you have to be pretty good to fly a jet. Also, the bolt action user could win as long as he was better.

In regards to, “obscene damage; mediocre at best” again, the classes are still sacrificing one thing or the other. The thief doesn’t bring much for his team, and the ele brings more for the team and less for his uber-big number fetish. Eles and engineers are working harder because they are contributing to more people, or damaging more people at a time. If a thief downs you fast, you can be ressed. There are several cast revives and the regular hard-revives to use. If an ele, engi, or necro, runs up to a point you can be sure they will have better point control than a thief will.