Guild Wars 2

I created this topic to talk about a few thing that have been bother me in in both Tpvp and Spvp. Whats been bother me are three classes/build thieves,great sword warriors and great sword guardians. Whats bothering me about it is how these class just get to run around pressing 2 maybe 3 buttons and doing great damage.

Thieves fine i get it they are supposed to be the sneaky class but really the damage combined with the mobility is just to much. At max initiative (which mean the trait to increase it by 3) they have to wait 15s between using their weapon skill while other classes have to wait sometimes up to 40s for a skill. The problem is that if they kitten up and dont instagib someone 15s they have all their skills ready to go and the other person has to wait on cool downs. Last thing about thieves the mobility is just to much they can screw up and just run away 90% of the time while other classes actually have to pay for their mistakes. What really bother me is how easy it is for thieves to get away and never have to pay for their kitten ups.

Great sword warrior pretty easy counter just dodge the bull rush and don’t stand in hundred blades proceed to kite. The problem is there are just so many of them everywhere and and if they get the jump on you your forced to stand their 4s while they just wail away at you if your stun break isnt up.

Great sword guardians their damage isn’t nearly as insane as the warrior but every kitten one of them has chains of light so you have to stand there once again and take the beating and they only have to wait for 20s for another immobilize.

Now sure i can beat all of these classes most of the time but i have to actually work for it not just press 2 maybe 3 buttons. It may just be me but i feel that they should also have to earn their kills and damage it just seems strange they can be so effective and not have to work nearly as hard as someone playing a necromancer or elementalist for example both have to use all their skills and cant just use 2 or 3 unless they want to get their kitten handed to them regularly.

For those of you who dint want to read the summary is i feel that people should have to earn their kills and damage not just bull rush and hundred blades.

You know that its pretty much a fluke to take a thief into tPvP, right? And it takes alot more kitten skill to pull off a decent thief then be a ‘skilled’ mesmer or warrior :l

I by no means want to sound as though there aren’t skilled great sword warriors and guardians or skilled thieves im just say that way to many of them aren’t good and still do tons of damage and get kills without having to actually work for it.

You mean the 6th warrior that has come in after you dodged 5 of the other warrior’s bull rush doesn’t have to work for it?

The horror. Who cares in sPvP? You should be running multiple stun breaks and mobility utility skills to escape. No reason to get mad that finally, after 5 screw ups, someone actually landed something.

Just laugh and move on.

Tell us OP, what class do you play….i’m gonna guess Mesmer.

I understand where you are coming from Eon. But I just wanted to say about Initiative, that its a double edged blade. While other classes can blow 3 – 4 cooldowns, switch weapons and blow another 3 – 4, thief is the only class that has to manage a resource wich incurs a ‘cooldown’ on every single weapon skill you have, no mather what weapon you switch too.

I play necromancer whyd you guess mesmer? Also whys it mater what class i play?

My guess would be because a mesmer needs time to setup wich can be tricky with burst classes

Well of course burst classes are well bursty but it should require more than just 2 button presses.

Eon.5428:

I play necromancer whyd you guess mesmer? Also whys it mater what class i play?

It doesn’t as mesmer was the hardest gw1 class to masters in gw1, but has become a mess and completely lost the identity to what a mesmer was in this game, to the point that that even players that loved the class (mainly the skilled ones that ran dom) don’t see themselves playing or liking it in this game. If you got killed by a mesmer using a melee weapon in gw1 aside from illusionary weapon he was clearly outplaying you and knew he could do it and was flexing his dominance. IW was bad though too.

Well, if you think that thief is a two button class, by all means, create one and jump into tpvp. It took me a few good weeks to get on the level I’m at now and still people can outplay me quite easily if they know the thief class a little. The problem with thieves is they are just too predictable atm cause you either go backstab or condi/caltrop.

Initiative balancing.

Like thieves have 0 ways of regenning initiative back very quickly?

Don’t make me laugh.

Well to be fair thieves may require more than 2 buttons but still steal back stab and heartseeker spam isn’t real complicated oh also assassins signet before you steal.

The steal, c&d, backstab combo doesn’t instagib anymore unless your enemy is a glass mesmer. A warrior does the dmg as our combo with 1 skill, 100 blades.

Also, phaeris, who are you talking too?

Well to be fair, a BS Thief will press at the very least 9 buttons in under 3-5 secs just to get one kill, assuming their target doesn’t move in a way to throw them off. Also, they can only do that once a minute.

Basilisk Venom -> Assassin’s Signet -> Cloak & Dagger -> Move behind you and Steal -> Backstab -> Heartseeker -> Heartseeker (You’re down, but not out.) -> Any stealth spell -> Stomp.

Please explain how this kill isn’t earned? The thief just used his only profession skill (that he trait-ed for to do damage), 2 (or 3 if his stealth is also one) of his “5-10” slot spells, and a large majority of his initiative. If any class uses this many spells and gets them off, you should be dead.

Rashagal you make a good point that’s a full instagib however most thieves just do what i said assassins signet steal back stab and spam heartseeker. What you described does require some skill but just stealing back stab and heartseek does not require skill and still does a ton of damage even if it wont for sure insta kill.

My point is most thieves just use the basic 3 button combo and still do a kittenon of damage.

Hardly a instagib at all thus… If thiefs really instagibbed, all they needed to do is steal to you and you’re down. Since the meaning of instagib is literally one hit and you’re dead.

You’re problem sounds more like a hotjoin issue, in which case i can only say, deal with the zerging bud…. it annoys me sometimes too and i have to just rage-switch servers if there are too many of the same class, but thats just how it is…

the maps are small and there are too many people on it in hotjoin

in tourneys you might see one warrior, or one thief, anything more than that you should be able to kitten because it wouldnt be the best team comp.

I know what you mean by 100b hurting, but that is the trade off, they hurt if they catch you with it but you will dismantle them if they mess up or if you survive it, unless they are decent and hotswap to their shield/axe then you are still in trouble.

As for the bad thief/warriors/guardians running around getting kills by milking other peoples dmg in hotjoin, theres no way the devs can stop that without hurting the classes too much for competitive play.

Kousetsu.1627:

Hardly a instagib at all thus… If thiefs really instagibbed, all they needed to do is steal to you and you’re down. Since the meaning of instagib is literally one hit and you’re dead.

Fine if you want to get technical not an actual instagib but regardless thieve do way to much damage and they do it way to quickly if you disagree with that then quiet frankly your just lying to yourself about the thief class.

Anyways this isn’t supposed to be a nerf thief thread just some classes i feel have it to easy to dish out large amounts of damage.

And what is wrong with that? I mean, there will ALWAYS be easier classes, harder classes, classes with high skill floor, classes with low skill floor, same goes for skill ceiling, classes that are newbie friendly, classes that are not newbie friendly, classes that are gods in lower skill levels, but get countered in “ultimate” skill level (WoW hunter?) etc etc etc.

You can’t balance the game to suit everyone equally, you have to choose what principle you want to follow. Personally, I am for the “balanced at top end gameplay” principle, as it is most fair and logical and is the only principle that relies on actual balancing.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I am aware that some classes need to be tweaked (some quite a lot), but not because they are easier to get into or friendlier toward facerolling or similar…

Doolio your right i suppose there always will be easier classes and theres nothing really wrong with it. I suppose i just feel a a little bit like classes that have to work hard should get something out of it but at the same time if you do that once people do learn those classes they become to strong. It just seems like bad design to me that something like a bull rush and hundred blades should do so much damage for so little work.

As for balance thats a tricky deal if you dont have a team then tpvp isnt very good solo que tourneys almost always turns out horrible. At the same time if most people are play 8v8 then how can you fairly not balance somewhat around that since its what most people will experience.

Dont get me wrong i play both tpvp and spvp but people shoudnt have to find a team just to get a balanced game but at the same time the team matches need to be balanced also.

Considering those things you mentioned, you make valid points and it’s things like those that make the PvP look like alpha stage of some B game to me. I have just realized that everything I post about PvP comes to me saying that lol.
But, that really sums it up for me. I have a constant impression of a very, very sloppy job when it comes to PvP. So sloppy that I don’t know how much things like patching and not complete overhaul can help it…
I mean, should they balance around 1v1, 5v5, 8v8? Why are solo and premade not separated? Should they balance around conquest mode or around simplified “vs” situations? Should new maps have determined number of players? How would current maps fare in that case? Will the in battle glory gain system be overhauled to actually promote desired gameplay and reflect state of things in battle?

I am under the impression that devs just jumped into this without planning, which is, of course ridiculous, but I don’t have other explanation…

I really enjoy pvp but im not blind to its problems and yes it does need alot of work. For example these ridiculous bunkers build that have been going around for weeks now of course because this pvp is focused around holding points there will always be bunkers of some sort but still no one want to just stand on a point all game doing nothing even if they do win. Lots of bunkers are bored out their skulls because sure they can hold the points but its no fun. Bunkers will always be around but they shouldn’t be nearly as strong as they are and yet anet is taking their sweet time balancing anything. I understand they dont want to do anything drastic and mess up the game but come on doing nothing is just as bad if not worse making changes even if they turn out bad lets people know your trying.

Thief owns glass cannons and bads. Anyone that knows whats up counters them pretty easy. Because i play one, along with 5 other classes they are not hard to beat.
And i asked what class you played because it tells alot about your POV. BTW i feel your pain on the Necro, its a solid class but can get trianed by a good thief.

Rashagal.5867:

Well to be fair, a BS Thief will press at the very least 9 buttons in under 3-5 secs just to get one kill, assuming their target doesn’t move in a way to throw them off. Also, they can only do that once a minute.

Basilisk Venom -> Assassin’s Signet -> Cloak & Dagger -> Move behind you and Steal -> Backstab -> Heartseeker -> Heartseeker (You’re down, but not out.) -> Any stealth spell -> Stomp.

Please explain how this kill isn’t earned? The thief just used his only profession skill (that he trait-ed for to do damage), 2 (or 3 if his stealth is also one) of his “5-10” slot spells, and a large majority of his initiative. If any class uses this many spells and gets them off, you should be dead.

mmm I think that might be the issue. most other classes have to use more than that amount of skills to kill something and majority of those said skills aren’t taking them directly to their target. nor are they hidden in stealth and unable to be targeted negating some of those skills entirely, nor are they moving at a static +25% movement speed and resetting the fight constantly when those skills don’t happen to land. in fact most classes don’t have a set rotation that can almost guarantee a kill. most other classes require thoughtful use of skills and CDs in whichever order the fight demands…

but hey, it definitely takes a little bit of skill to google the build and rotation though. so kudos on that..

Hackks you make a good point and you made me laugh thank you.

Grats, so now you have the build and the rotation. Good luck trying to pull it off vs a team that doesn’t have their heads up their kitten and focus you as soon as you appear in the fight. We need big damage and to be as slippery as a rat without any means of mitigating damage or excessive control like you saw with wow rogues

Kousetsu.1627:

Grats, so now you have the build and the rotation. Good luck trying to pull it off vs a team that doesn’t have their heads up their kitten and focus you as soon as you appear in the fight. We need big damage and to be as slippery as a rat without any means of mitigating damage or excessive control like you saw with wow rogues

Dont forget all the stabilty thiefs have….o wait

Rashagal.5867:

Well to be fair, a BS Thief will press at the very least 9 buttons in under 3-5 secs just to get one kill, assuming their target doesn’t move in a way to throw them off. Also, they can only do that once a minute.

Basilisk Venom -> Assassin’s Signet -> Cloak & Dagger -> Move behind you and Steal -> Backstab -> Heartseeker -> Heartseeker (You’re down, but not out.) -> Any stealth spell -> Stomp.

Please explain how this kill isn’t earned? The thief just used his only profession skill (that he trait-ed for to do damage), 2 (or 3 if his stealth is also one) of his “5-10” slot spells, and a large majority of his initiative. If any class uses this many spells and gets them off, you should be dead.

Try out an elementalist, 9 skills in 3 seconds, I wish. 9 Skills to down someone, possibly, haven’t run glass cannon damage before. My problem is that I’m not a glass cannon build, I’m a glass bunker build against thieves only. Have no troubles with the other classes, thieves just destroy you if you don’t pick it up fast enough.

BTW if your stealth render issue was fixed I wouldn’t care. ATM it is buff buff c&d steal backstab (should unstealth but no) hearseeker (still stealthed) heartseeker (still stealthed) I’m either downed or kiting for my life, then I see you and gone. Your either leaving because I got out of it, or your downing me invisible.

Apparently OP doesn’t understand the concept of ‘Burst DPS’.

Go play League of Legends or similar and get some real perspective.

Yes, I am a hard burst glass cannon Thief with super high mobility. If I catch you in the wrong moment, you’re dead. Don’t get caught.

Too much to ask? Too bad, because Thieves are at danger of getting caught 24/7. As glass cannon we can’t take focus. If you out CC us or catch us, we’re dead.

If OP expects a thief to stick around while your CDs refresh, they’re out of their mind. A good thief knows when to jump in AND when to jump out.

Like I said, study MOBA games if you wanna know how to counter one.

Example: Necro is an easy direct counter to a thief. They have high survivability and sustain, two direct counters to a Thief. If you can outlast our burst we’re pretty much dead.

If I ever meet a HB warrior or a backstab Thief when I’m playing my Mesmer, I just laugh at delight.

They come, they fail, they run.
Point is mine to capture freely!

I don’t see the issue with hundred blades builds, if you see it coming then it is as easy to counter as it is to use – and it’s very very easy to use. Thief is a faceroll class and everybody knows it. As for Guardians, meh, never been impressed by their offensive abilities – except when using Judge’s Intervention to stomp teleporting Thieves in downed state, but that’s because it’s funny more than anything.

I think one-shot type builds (even if they are five shots in one-two second) should be as easy to counter as they are to play – as somebody who has both a Thief and a Warrior who’ve been used in sPvP and WvWvW, I can say they’re extremely easy to use.

pabloedvardo.3058:

If you can outlast our burst we’re pretty much dead.

Haha, please….you thieves would just stealth and run away. What dying is there?

hackks, I get what you’re saying, but is the snarky google comment warranted? I mean yes, I looked up some tips on how most build a BS thief, but isn’t that why everyone on these forums is here: to make themselves a better player? If not for people wanting to learn some of the more intricacies about the game, then isn’t this site just a place for whining and calling for classes you lose against to be nerfed?

The reason I read these threads is to learn how to play effectively against others. The reason I post on here is to share what I know about thieves, and how to play against them. I do this because 99% of these threads about thieves are coming from players that don’t play thieves, and because of that they oversimplify what happened in the fight. That’s fine. I’m not saying that my class is the most difficult or challenging class in the game. I’m saying that when people come on here, they should be looking for tips and tricks. They should be asking for information about how to make their play better, not calling for changes to classes they don’t even attempt to understand the weaknesses of.

Yes – We have a increased move speed, but we pay for it by losing one of our 5-10 slots.

Yes – We have stealth, but we pay for it by giving up stability and still being vulnerable while stealthed.

Yes – We do a lot of damage, but we pay for it by being squishy, especially when considering the BS glass cannon build.

No – It didn’t take any skill to google my build. But it also doesn’t take any skill to read the explanations I have posted about how to throw a thief off and take them out of the fight. There are a lot of ways to counter a thief. The fact that we have an easily known routine for our attack should make it just as easy to see what is coming, and act against us.

Good Luck and Happy Hunting.

Once again guys really this wasn’t meant to be a nerf thieves thread. Ok now all these points about how thieves are so squishy and get bursted down sure you do if you get caught but that’s part of the problem thieves have so much mobility that a good thief will hardly ever get caught because they have so many tools to just run away and come back again in 15s ready to go.

pabloedvardo thanks for jumping in here and imminently telling me how i dont know anything im aware what burst dps is and id like you to consider this isnt league of legends i cant stay near my tower so thieves cant jump me. Also you talk as though there is some simple way to not get caught by thieves please do share? Lets see they are moving around faster than everyone else either with the movement speed signet or just with the short bow, they have stealth or and steal teleports them to the person so there goes your range advantage.

Another thing id like everyone to consider is this join a spvp match there are usually considerably more theives than any other class why? The reason is simple it just doesnt just happen to be the funnest class(or some other crap reason why people think there are so many) there are so many because there is some about the class that cause tons of people to flock to it seems a lot like a op flavor of the month kinda thing to me. Kinda like there were alot more mesmers before they got a few nerfs.

Another thing to consider is this i think there is a problem if people are having to focus there build around a class that instagibs you if you dont spec simi tank which is wrong not everyone should have to build to counter thieves so clearly something is wrong.

Infiniafication.2394:

If I ever meet a HB warrior or a backstab Thief when I’m playing my Mesmer, I just laugh at delight.

They come, they fail, they run.
Point is mine to capture freely!

Playing a mesmer in its current state is nothing to be proud of.

I guess you didn’t see his point.

how about the times when i use shadow refuge only to be blown away and instantly unstealthed, and 60s cooldown to go ? is THAT fair ?
also how about the classes that spam imobilize and stun like crazy ?
…roll to a lvl 1 thief, go to free pvp (free lvl 80 and gear), play some matches, and then come here and complain it is OP, NOT before