(edited by Rump Buffalo.2594)
Thief Burst, Reduce the QQ
I don’t have problem with the burst, from either Thief, or Mesmer.
I have problem with burst combined with invisiblity, disappearance and confusion.
It’s not fun to meet something that can disappear whenever it wants, it’s simply just not fun, there is no battle in it.
The only problem with thieves the morons who use macro expoits that renders them invisible while spamming over 5 heart seekers
Rendering bug makes invulnerable only p/d.
The only problem is “Backstab”.
Backstab>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>other stealth skills
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth_skill
And of course very cheap heartseeker. Guild wars 222222222222222222222222222222
the heart of that problem isnt the macro, its the culling. It needs to be immediate and there is no excuse for it not to be.
yeah Farzo, as i said the damage is fine. Mug does too much, CnD does too little imo. So shift the 33% nerf over and revert CnD. Damage isnt the main problem but the CnD nerf does make s/d really meh
I dont think “backstab” is the problem. Its damage is fine.
I will say if you feel other stealth skills arent up to par maybe they need to be buffed.
Sword blinds/dazes which i think works really welly with its kit and i love, wouldnt mind it to do more damage. Pistol is good for condition builds but it makes pistol a little too schizo since pistol mainhand doesnt know what it wants to be.
the bow is…meh. Id rather have it deal burning so we can have a true condition build with it. “Shadow flame arrow” Blind / Burn small aoe on target
As to heartseeker, i think its crit ratio of bonus dmg needs to be reduced and its damage above 25% needs a reduction. It should be a finisher and a gap closer and only those 2 things. Currently, even tho it is scruby, HS spam works far too well (mainly in non tpvp)
(edited by Rump Buffalo.2594)
yeah Farzo, as i said the damage is fine. Mug does too much, CnD does too little imo. So shift the 33% nerf over and revert CnD. Damage isnt the main problem but the CnD nerf does make s/d really meh
F1
Mind wrack – 10k damage
F1
Steal – max 5k damage too mach?
s/d want a normal “flanking strike”.
That mind wrack damage is a bug and you know it.
We can’t talk balance about a skill that is bugged, is known to be bugged, and has been said that it will be fixed
and yeah 5kdmg is TOO MUCH for a TRAIT. It is a TRAIT remember that. Not even a tier 3 one
…i find it interesting that no one has said a thing about the animation change which i think would be REALLY helpful and good.
(edited by Rump Buffalo.2594)
That mind wrack damage is a bug and you know it.
We can’t talk balance about a skill that is bugged, is known to be bugged, and has been said that it will be fixed
and yeah 5kdmg is TOO MUCH for a TRAIT. It is a TRAIT remember that. Not even a tier 3 one
without bug 2500×4=10000
or 2500X3=7500 aoe
yeah Farzo, as i said the damage is fine. Mug does too much, CnD does too little imo. So shift the 33% nerf over and revert CnD. Damage isnt the main problem but the CnD nerf does make s/d really meh
F1
Mind wrack – 10k damage
F1
Steal – max 5k damage too mach?s/d want a normal “flanking strike”.
S/D wants a buff to OH dagger above all, THEN a working flanking strike. Before nerf, S/D thieves were strong even without flanking strike, which was still used to remove long lasting boons.
FS should be the “high risk, high reward” S/D skill, but it’s not rewarding while being risky, it’s just a mess.
I agree on the damage reduction to mug, and reverted damage to C&D, and the day they’ll fix FS to make it a worthy move, as a former S/D player I’ll happily go back to the “hard to play” side of thieves
it doesnt do 2500 x4 it hits for totals under 4k usually. Yes it is an aoe, which is what i suppose you’re getting at with the x4 and not on a single target. I don’t see how you expect to be hitting 4-5 people repeatedly. That damage is not from a single trait and it is all on one person. It is also HEAVILY countered by aoe and all clones die extremely easily, especially in glass cannon builds. Aside from aegis what is the counter to mug? Dodge? i’d love to see u time a dodge on mug.
Dont know where you are getting your numbers from unless you’re assuming straight 4-5 targets all the time. You are comparing apples and oranges with completely different functionalism and mechanics, your example is flawed. Only thing even getting anywhere near 10-18k are from macro/shatter bug double shatters. Not to mention mug is instant and near impossible to avoid on purpose where shatters are not and any player worth their salt knows to dodge into them to avoid all the damage 99% of the time.
Burst is ok with a wind up, that is one of the main points of this thread. Granted it should be scaled to some number for balanced but the numbers you are using for shatters are just not true without a bug.
HOWEVER
That is not what this thread is about, please stay on topic with the thief. Really no one has anything to say about the CnD Animation idea?
(edited by Rump Buffalo.2594)
i think obvious animations would help a ton,
but something would still need to be done about the absurd damage.
i watched that mesmer shatter video thats been floating around of the BUGGED shatter one shot, but the thing that got my attention most was the thief getting the mesmer to 20% instantly, no bug, no fancy set up or play, just press F1 then 1…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr8l833Gs9I
Certainly interesting that most of these threads get posted by former S/D thieves instead of people concerned in the general well-being of the profession. The problem isn’t that a small nerf has made a single build unusable, it’s that burst on a roaming thief is necessary.
Try playing a thief against a good team. You aren’t going to bring down a bunker by opening up with a burst and in a team fight you’re so squishy you can easily die from aoe before you’re even noticed. Now, let’s say you do well and down someone. Now what? Pop your aoe stealth cooldown and hope that no-one runs into it and pops a knockdown? Hell, someone could just stand over the target while auto-attacking. The damage would be quick enough to kill you before you even finish stomping. Without being able to deal a HUGE amount of damage in a short time and get away (which normally requires several cooldowns due to the majority of init being eaten up by the burst) so teammates can finish the job, the thief would be pigeonholed into gimmicky builds that aren’t quite on par with any other profession. (which seems to be another issue) If anything, the thief profession is starting to lose it’s viability as people begin to figure out that they need to put more emphasis on survival in their builds.
SIDE NOTE: Really no point in comparing us with mesmers. I’m pretty sure AN has already stated that the newly improved might trait is getting reset to it’s original description. Not sure why they haven’t done it yet though.
Certainly interesting that most of these threads get posted by former S/D thieves instead of people concerned in the general well-being of the profession. The problem isn’t that a small nerf has made a single build unusable, it’s that burst on a roaming thief is necessary.
Try playing a thief against a good team. You aren’t going to bring down a bunker by opening up with a burst and in a team fight you’re so squishy you can easily die from aoe before you’re even noticed. Now, let’s say you do well and down someone. Now what? Pop your aoe stealth cooldown and hope that no-one runs into it and pops a knockdown? Hell, someone could just stand over the target while auto-attacking. The damage would be quick enough to kill you before you even finish stomping. Without being able to deal a HUGE amount of damage in a short time and get away (which normally requires several cooldowns due to the majority of init being eaten up by the burst) so teammates can finish the job, the thief would be pigeonholed into gimmicky builds that aren’t quite on par with any other profession. (which seems to be another issue) If anything, the thief profession is starting to lose it’s viability as people begin to figure out that they need to put more emphasis on survival in their builds.
SIDE NOTE: Really no point in comparing us with mesmers. I’m pretty sure AN has already stated that the newly improved might trait is getting reset to it’s original description. Not sure why they haven’t done it yet though.
It’s not about “needing or not”, it’s about “alternatives”.
An S/D thief was a very good off roamer, moreover it was a very good solo capper.
S/D is amazing 1vs1, it still is, but now it’s not tPvP viable due to very bad damage and less control with TS daze duration reduced.
Before nerf, instead of running thief+ele, you could run double thief.
Or run S/D thief + ele.
Hell, with an S/D thief in yourt you could even run with a warrior, because it provided stealth support and was an indipendent class.
Basically, an S/D thief was on par with the ele, while providing different support ( have you ever used a bullrush+ 100blades from stealth ? pro move dude).
Having alternatives is indeed good for a class, so it promotes the class well-being.
Dunno what you were trying to say with your post.
Dunno what you were trying to say with your post.
I must have misread the title. Is this thread about thief burst annoying new players or is it about wanting S/D back? Because it’s starting to sound like the latter.
Something you’d probably be interested in knowing:
Good warriors don’t open with bull rush; that’d be a complete waste, as the target would just pop a stun breaker and get away. It’s also important to note that Bull Rush takes no more than a split second to land. It’s highly unlikely that the warrior being unveiled as the rush connects will gain a significant edge, as the target is most likely going to react to the resulting knockdown, not the animation of the warrior speeding towards him . Stealth is in no way going to aid a warrior in defeating enemies. There are far better types of support a thief can provide with the right builds. Stealth can however:
-Stealth downed players, preventing them from being stomped
-Prevent teammates from being interrupted mid-stomp by making them untargetable
-Hide teammates at a control-point to prevent the enemy from knowing what they’re getting into until they commit to the point
All of these come from the same utility and have absolutely nothing to do with S/D. Unless I’m confused, the build’s primary function was to provide a large amount of Immobilize, which can be accomplished through Venomous Aura from a safe distance just as easily. Boon removal is neat, especially when it takes off stability, but neat is not enough to justify a build. Nothing else in those builds could not be accomplished with one using different weapons.
I apologize if I mislead you, but I thought my post made it fairly clear that I felt thieves needed more survivability; the lack thereof was making alternative builds far less viable. There are many other builds out there, Assassins Reward, Death Blossom, Condi-P/D, etc, and they all work fairly well but ultimately don’t make the cut unless used in an extremely well constructed team comp, which most players aren’t capable of finding.
Dunno what you were trying to say with your post.
I must have misread the title. Is this thread about thief burst annoying new players or is it about wanting S/D back? Because it’s starting to sound like the latter.
Something you’d probably be interested in knowing:
Good warriors don’t open with bull rush; that’d be a complete waste, as the target would just pop a stun breaker and get away. It’s also important to note that Bull Rush takes no more than a split second to land. It’s highly unlikely that the warrior being unveiled as the rush connects will gain a significant edge, as the target is most likely going to react to the resulting knockdown, not the animation of the warrior speeding towards him . Stealth is in no way going to aid a warrior in defeating enemies. There are far better types of support a thief can provide with the right builds. Stealth can however:
-Stealth downed players, preventing them from being stomped
-Prevent teammates from being interrupted mid-stomp by making them untargetable
-Hide teammates at a control-point to prevent the enemy from knowing what they’re getting into until they commit to the pointAll of these come from the same utility and have absolutely nothing to do with S/D. Unless I’m confused, the build’s primary function was to provide a large amount of Immobilize, which can be accomplished through Venomous Aura from a safe distance just as easily. Boon removal is neat, especially when it takes off stability, but neat is not enough to justify a build. Nothing else in those builds could not be accomplished with one using different weapons.
I apologize if I mislead you, but I thought my post made it fairly clear that I felt thieves needed more survivability; the lack thereof was making alternative builds far less viable. There are many other builds out there, Assassins Reward, Death Blossom, Condi-P/D, etc, and they all work fairly well but ultimately don’t make the cut unless used in an extremely well constructed team comp, which most players aren’t capable of finding.
Well, let’s start.
1. S/D role was to control the opponet, while dealing very good pressure as long as you could stick to your foe.
Tactical strike daze was up to 3 secs per hit ( ridicolous, lol ) and you could remove stability any time you desired.
S/D was the only DD alternative to D/D, since S/P covered the same spot of D/D while being far less efficient, more easily countered by reta and stability, and less evasive.
S/D was actually the only 1vs1 set the thief has along with D/P ( which gives better results as a burst build, anyway).
The root on inf strike has nothing to with its former role in PvP.
2. Condi thieves are basically useless in tPvP. They are far too reliant on stealth to mitigate damage ( not preventing capping), they spread few conditions that are easily removed and are totally worthless in larger scale fights.
They’re all 1vsX builds, more suited for WvW than tPvP, altough they can still have a role in some super specialized strat.
Superspecialized strat doesn’t mean “better”.
3. Stealth ress is horrible. You need to be lucky and hope your opponent doesn’t have KBs ready, or is stupid enough to not simply auto-attack in front on the corpse, and down both of you.
There’s a reason why people bring rez signet into tourneys.
Stealth ressing is good only against people with no clue, or in some very specific situation, or when you’re lucky.
Thieves could use some more survivability i suppose but i really dont see that as the main problem (IE AoE damage and bunkers/Spikes meta). It is more a meta issue than a class issue. i dont agree with people who say thieves die instantly because they usually are just glass cannon builds.
This post is far more about the issues of telegraphed burst, not a proving ground to argue, lets stay on topic.
(edited by Rump Buffalo.2594)
It’s also important to note that Bull Rush takes no more than a split second to land.
Actually, Bull’s Charge takes about 1 second to land. The duration of the animation is the same regardless of whether the target is right next to you or at the max range. If you Bull’s Charge right when someone dodge’s, provided they don’t dodge immediately after, it’ll connect. No matter where they start relative to your character.
I just thought I’d throw that in there.
Also, I wouldn’t call Backstab damage “fine”. What does a Thief do to earn such high damage? Stealth? Lock a target in place? I think the crux of the other thread mentioned in the OP is that burst mechanics just like Backstab are far too rewarding. If anything, Backstab should apply a condition, like Confusion, instead of do 10k+ damage. If the best argument for Backstab is that it’s a thief’s only option, then perhaps the class needs to be looked at, because that screams “symptom” to me.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Well, let’s start…
So basically everything I just said, except worded in a way that makes me wonder if you read more than the first paragraph.
1. I mentioned that S/D was mainly for control, and briefly touched on how it could still be done with other builds. As far as 1v1 builds go, my first post touched on how there was no reliable way to down a bunker, and that the thief prof is currently only useful as a “hit and run” build. I could see how this might not be clear, as I was actually addressing the topic proposed by the original poster in that post.
2. The entire point of both my posts was that thieves have no reliable way to mitigate damage, which was making other builds (such as condi) terrible to use. Also, slightly curious as to what you mean by a superspecialized strat. That almost sounds like you are suggesting that every build that isn’t a hybrid is terrible.
3. Nowhere did I suggest ressing someone while they are stealthed. All I said was that stealthing a downed player made stomping them impossible. I’m not entirely sure how you got confused there. I’ll even re-type the exact sentence for you:
“-Stealth downed players, preventing them from being stomped”
EDIT:
Actually, Bull’s Charge takes about 1 second to land.
Almost missed this post. Usually a good idea to use frenzy right before the Rush; need it for 100b to be worth using anyways. (the final strike needs to hit for there to be a big damage gain over auto-attack, hard to do with a 3 1/2 sec cast)
(edited by Geewoody.2017)
I agree that backstab is too rewarding for how easy it is to land.
This goes back to the animation change ive suggested for cloak and dagger that no one seems to have read.
This would allow time to reaction and make the thief think about using it or not against someone who can dodge / block
Maybe backstab could have its initial damage reduced, im not sure that is the main issue though. I believe it is more the low risk and the high frequency at which this combo can be executed that needs to be addressed rather than the actual damage of the singular stealth attack
therefore i believe it is more a mechanical problem and less a number problem
I don’t know what bug you guys are going on about, but I usually only hit for about 6-8k on 4MW total per target if they all crit.
After reading this post I’ve come to the conclusion thieves are broken and should be removed from the game.
For me thief are p balanced for what the meta is, it takes a while to get used to them since the targeting / rendering in this game is kittens and the people that are just starting or have somewhat an idea how the game works rage a lot when they get insta gibbed.
I think they should nerf thief completely by making it more survival but removing the stealth completely since the skill gap is huge ( a guy that knows what he is doing from a guy that knows how to play).
Like i said thief is ok for me but getting used to them takes a while.
Well, let’s start…
So basically everything I just said, except worded in a way that makes me wonder if you read more than the first paragraph.
1. I mentioned that S/D was mainly for control, and briefly touched on how it could still be done with other builds. As far as 1v1 builds go, my first post touched on how there was no reliable way to down a bunker, and that the thief prof is currently only useful as a “hit and run” build. I could see how this might not be clear, as I was actually addressing the topic proposed by the original poster in that post.
2. The entire point of both my posts was that thieves have no reliable way to mitigate damage, which was making other builds (such as condi) terrible to use. Also, slightly curious as to what you mean by a superspecialized strat. That almost sounds like you are suggesting that every build that isn’t a hybrid is terrible.
3. Nowhere did I suggest ressing someone while they are stealthed. All I said was that stealthing a downed player made stomping them impossible. I’m not entirely sure how you got confused there. I’ll even re-type the exact sentence for you:
“-Stealth downed players, preventing them from being stomped”
1. S/D was not really meant for control, S/D main purpose was to be a 1vs1 build, at least in tPvP.
S/D great amount of control allowed an S/D thief to almost solo a bunker, as long as you were able to interrupt heals ( aside the guardian one).
No other thief build had the same amount of control and sustained damage S/D had, and you were trading it for the burst other builds can provide.
Its role was pretty unique, and currently the only class capable to partially cover that role is an ele.
Currently OP proposals are right, since the nerf to OH dagger totally gimped any power based build focused on sustain ( S/D or balanced D/D, even P/D for those who wanted to use it power based) without really touching thief burst.
It was a senseless nerf and needs to be at least partially reverted: it removed any decent alternative to D/D burst.
2. This is not true.
Shadow arts traitline provides TONS of ways to mitigate damage ( cond removal in stealth, 330 health heal per sec while stealthed etc…)
The point is that they all require stealth, and stealth leaves the point uncontested.
Condi builds are 1vsX builds focused on stealth and sustain, more suited for WvW ( where they might even be a little OP) than tPvP, where they can cause more issues than they can solve.
I’m not saying that non hybrid builds are terrible ( why talking about hybrids anyway: the only decent hybrid build in current meta is power/condi AoE necro), i’m simply saying that the thief doesn’t have any choice for competitive play aside D/D burst.
3. My bad.
dont nerf thieves or mesmers, buff all other classes, ranger was a good class in the last Beta Event but they were one of the worst in the release ( they had a BIG NERF ) , mesmer was bad in last Beta Events, and they are semigods now…..
Yea all right, nerf mug along with any other build that actually doesn’t involve a BS burst and everything will be fine… Come on… Think this through…
Yea I think it’s time to reinstate some of those nerfs that were given during and a little after release.
I think Anet was a bit too extreme on some of the professions in terms of the nerfs. Now that the game has been out for quite some time and everyone has become very familiar with the abilities of the professions, it would make sense to reintroduce some of the things taken out.
I think Anet doesn’t even have to do a full reinstating of some of those nerfs but just make some tweaks to the nerfs of the other professions and please work on stealth for the thief.
I can see Mesmer burst coming at me. I can see the clones running towards me. I can know a thief burst is coming, but I can’t see it. Even if I manage to ditch the first burst, the thief goes back to invisible and repeats. I still can’t see the opening hits. It’s just cheese. I can do F3—> Mirror Images —> F1 Mes shatter in the small amount of time it needs to get full burst potential. I have the APM for it, but I still can’t always avoid being bursted by what I can’t see.
Zed Zebes – SBI Mesmer
This goes bad to the telegraphy of the attack and the suggested animation change that hasnt been commented on lol
Yea I think it’s time to reinstate some of those nerfs that were given during and a little after release.
I think Anet was a bit too extreme on some of the professions in terms of the nerfs. Now that the game has been out for quite some time and everyone has become very familiar with the abilities of the professions, it would make sense to reintroduce some of the things taken out.
I think Anet doesn’t even have to do a full reinstating of some of those nerfs but just make some tweaks to the nerfs of the other professions and please work on stealth for the thief.
It’s pointless to allow other professions to burst as hard as a thief ( even though that may never be possible) unless you’ve got stealth..you’ll get one-shotted once your burst fail.
With stealth, professions like mesmer/thieves can go full offense with little problems, furthermore their burst is extremely easy to land and steadily available
furthermore their burst is extremely easy to land and steadily available
this is the main issue, as to my animation change it would help this a lot…
What does a Thief do to earn such high damage? Stealth? Lock a target in place?
Actually if you ever played a thief you should know that bs need positioning AND locking the target in place….you need to lock him and land bs on his back or sides, otherwise bs dmg is halved…you know right? Want to avoid bs? Blind fields, blocks or just staying with your back near a wall is more than enough..
Archaon that doesnt address any of the issues objectively.
We all know there are counters, this doesnt mean the ease of being able to land BS and the complete lack of telegraphy for any defense isnt bad. Give CnD that shadow animation and let us see it coming. Major problem solved.
this doesnt mean the ease of being able to land BS
Uhm…probably you lost the part where i’m saying that you HAVE TO land bs on back or sides to deal a good dmg….thief it’s the only class that needs target positioning before landing a skill, without stealth you can’t get on someone’s back…and if someone is just a little better than brain dead he must know that giving your back to a thief it’s like putting a big “KILL ME I’M NOOB” neon insigna on your head….btw bs can’t kill my roam thief and i simply laugh at them with guardian and ele…so no need “special defenses” at all..
All thieves please reroll and then come back and say your damage is fine and dandy.
Go play Engie, then come back and tell us how wonderful it is that hitting a 2k crit is just right. Yep, go and try other classes then come back with your flawed logic and reasoning.
(By the by, thief is broken in part to the culling issue. But mainly from the stupid idea to not have CDs on moves. Go load up any other class and try to spam there powerful attacks. HMMMMMMMM, yeah, you can pop off about 10 heartseekers in the same time I can use 2 of most other classes most powerful attacks. But no, your right, its clearly all fine. Enjoy your dead game in 6 months)
All thieves please reroll and then come back and say your damage is fine and dandy.
Go play Engie, then come back and tell us how wonderful it is that hitting a 2k crit is just right. Yep, go and try other classes then come back with your flawed logic and reasoning.
(By the by, thief is broken in part to the culling issue. But mainly from the stupid idea to not have CDs on moves. Go load up any other class and try to spam there powerful attacks. HMMMMMMMM, yeah, you can pop off about 10 heartseekers in the same time I can use 2 of most other classes most powerful attacks. But no, your right, its clearly all fine. Enjoy your dead game in 6 months)
Actually i also play ele and guardian in both spvp and tpvp (Not every team have a thief in tpvp expec paids)…and both are much more powerful, flexible and all around useful, guardian is also way more easy to play at good levels than a thief cause you have so much survivability you can actually make mistakes without being facerolled in less than 2 secs…you can pretty much laugh at any thief if you spec just a little on survivability and cond removal..
(edited by Archaon.6245)
The only problem with thieves the morons who use macro expoits that renders them invisible while spamming over 5 heart seekers
This is the main problem and it’s in every match and it’s the most damaging thing to class balance yet goes unaddressed.
reduce burst all around, then QQ will die out on its own. problem solved.
anyway, mug is broken, 6 HS with haste is broken, and there needs to be a stealth nerf as well
reduce burst all around, then QQ will die out on its own. problem solved.
anyway, mug is broken, 6 HS with haste is broken, and there needs to be a stealth nerf as well
Sadly it will never happen because there is someone at the design lvl who is very bad at pvp who only plays a thief and obviously there in charge.
Burst is high because the spvp gamemode of Conquest exists in an eternal sturggle between Burst and Bunker. They probably know that people getting one shotted is not good balance, but they have to have it or yo will have bunker builds that never die. It’s a fustercluck created by their pvp game mode choice.
Zed Zebes – SBI Mesmer