Guild Wars 2

i mean something like 0,25-0,5s just to prevent spam SAME skill 2-4times?

thief have initiative so they cant have normal CD on skills like other classes but for sure they need some internal CD to prevent spam SAME skill 2-4 times withou any delay.

i will repeat again, this is just to prevent spam SAME skill, they should be able (if have initiative) use 2-3 skills without any delay but only if those skills arent the same.

thief are the only class can spam same skill 2-3x (sometime even 4x) withou any delay, this need to be changed.

All skills already have gcd 0.25.

Marduh.4603:

All skills already have gcd 0.25.

than need to have a bigger CD.

im a mesmer and 0,25s on shatter they put is almost nothing but are shatters and only 1 do damage the rest is mostly defensive.

on thief they are skills and some with great damage, not HS isnt just for noobs, if your target is below 50% health use HS is one of best option to kill the target.

im not a thief expert but something need to be done about this issue.

JonPeters.5630:

This is not true, skills have a cast time and after cast based on the animation they use. To ease any thief worries we are not limiting back to back skill use on purpose. This is in fact the point of initiative and why thieves feel different than other professions.

tks for the reply. my english isnt very good so what are you saying is that thief dont have any internal CD on same skill?

JonPeters.5630:

This is not true, skills have a cast time and after cast based on the animation they use. To ease any thief worries we are not limiting back to back skill use on purpose. This is in fact the point of initiative and why thieves feel different than other professions.

just curious, are you happy with and is it your intention for moves with no cast time to be able to be used in the middle of a move with a cast time? For instance lightning flash during churning earth and steal during cloak and dagger.

JonPeters.5630:

This is not true, skills have a cast time and after cast based on the animation they use. To ease any thief worries we are not limiting back to back skill use on purpose. This is in fact the point of initiative and why thieves feel different than other professions.

But autoattack chain have GCD.
nocast time + 0.5 cast time+0.5 cast time=2 sec full autoattack chain

Why dont you give Thieves .25 GCD like mesmer?

JonPeters.5630:

felivear.1536:

JonPeters.5630:

This is not true, skills have a cast time and after cast based on the animation they use. To ease any thief worries we are not limiting back to back skill use on purpose. This is in fact the point of initiative and why thieves feel different than other professions.

just curious, are you happy with and is it your intention for moves with no cast time to be able to be used in the middle of a move with a cast time? For instance lightning flash during churning earth and steal during cloak and dagger.

Yes this is part of the design of the combat.

was it designed for HS to be a spammable gap closer that requires no skill to land on target?

we have 45 secs cd . but thx for suggestion

JonPeters.5630:

felivear.1536:

JonPeters.5630:

This is not true, skills have a cast time and after cast based on the animation they use. To ease any thief worries we are not limiting back to back skill use on purpose. This is in fact the point of initiative and why thieves feel different than other professions.

just curious, are you happy with and is it your intention for moves with no cast time to be able to be used in the middle of a move with a cast time? For instance lightning flash during churning earth and steal during cloak and dagger.

Yes this is part of the design of the combat.

IMO isnt a good design. initiative even if skills have internal CD of 0,25s dont exist any other class beside thief that can use same skill with such low CD (not even close).

stealth need some rework especially shadow refuge with insane bonus stealth at the end of skill

mesmer illusionary leap could have be more obvious , maybe a animation like warrior charge i dont know. the illusionary leap is like the charge of warrior, a skill before the combo burst.

im a mesmer and i agree that sometimes illusionary leap is hard to see. if all pre burst skills have a obvious animation like warrior charge the game will be much more fun.

and please change some skill animations. lot of them are very similar (some are basically the same)

JonPeters.5630:

felivear.1536:

JonPeters.5630:

This is not true, skills have a cast time and after cast based on the animation they use. To ease any thief worries we are not limiting back to back skill use on purpose. This is in fact the point of initiative and why thieves feel different than other professions.

just curious, are you happy with and is it your intention for moves with no cast time to be able to be used in the middle of a move with a cast time? For instance lightning flash during churning earth and steal during cloak and dagger.

Yes this is part of the design of the combat.

Does it only work with utility skills? Because i cant cast heal and ride the lightning for example, while rtl is instant cast. Same with updraft and other instant cast skills. Maybe this only applies to casting skills that pins you in place?

possante.8310:

JonPeters.5630:

felivear.1536:

JonPeters.5630:

This is not true, skills have a cast time and after cast based on the animation they use. To ease any thief worries we are not limiting back to back skill use on purpose. This is in fact the point of initiative and why thieves feel different than other professions.

just curious, are you happy with and is it your intention for moves with no cast time to be able to be used in the middle of a move with a cast time? For instance lightning flash during churning earth and steal during cloak and dagger.

Yes this is part of the design of the combat.

IMO isnt a good design. initiative even if skills have internal CD of 0,25s dont exist any other class beside thief that can use same skill with such low CD (not even close).

stealth need some rework especially shadow refuge with insane bonus stealth at the end of skill

mesmer illusionary leap could have be more obvious , maybe a animation like warrior charge i dont know. the illusionary leap is like the charge of warrior, a skill before the combo burst.

im a mesmer and i agree that sometimes illusionary leap is hard to see. if all pre burst skills have a obvious animation like warrior charge the game will be much more fun.

and please change some skill animations. lot of them are very similar (some are basically the same)

they need to fix iLeap first. it doesn’t work half the time.

ilJumperMT.4871:

Why dont you give Thieves .25 GCD like mesmer?

Because they already have. They can’t cast 2~4 skills at the same time (weapon skills). It would be like using HS + Death Blossom together, it doesn’t happen.

hharry.1967:

JonPeters.5630:

felivear.1536:

JonPeters.5630:

This is not true, skills have a cast time and after cast based on the animation they use. To ease any thief worries we are not limiting back to back skill use on purpose. This is in fact the point of initiative and why thieves feel different than other professions.

just curious, are you happy with and is it your intention for moves with no cast time to be able to be used in the middle of a move with a cast time? For instance lightning flash during churning earth and steal during cloak and dagger.

Yes this is part of the design of the combat.

Does it only work with utility skills? Because i cant cast heal and ride the lightning for example, while rtl is instant cast. Same with updraft and other instant cast skills. Maybe this only applies to casting skills that pins you in place?

No what he means is that certain skills can be used on top of others that have a duration. For instance, Shout skills can be used at any point in time regardless of actions being taken by the player or effects being placed on the player. You can be knocked down and use “For Great Justice” as a warrior.

Now that isn’t to say that certain skills don’t still need balance work around what they can and cannot do, but it was intentionally built that way.

Asomal.6453:

ilJumperMT.4871:

Why dont you give Thieves .25 GCD like mesmer?

Because they already have. They can’t cast 2~4 skills at the same time (weapon skills). It would be like using HS + Death Blossom together, it doesn’t happen.

you are confusing instant skills with no CD between skills. any class beside thief cant use same skill more than once because have a CD (lowest is like 5-6s), thief just need to wait the skill animation end and than can cast it again if they have initiative.

HS for example can be cast 4 times withou any delay

Jon, on a related note, can u or anyone say if the chilled effect slows thief initiative regen?

typingofthedead.5614:

Jon, on a related note, can u or anyone say if the chilled effect slows thief initiative regen?

pretty sure not , 60% slow regen on thief initiative will make them useless.

Asomal.6453:

ilJumperMT.4871:

Why dont you give Thieves .25 GCD like mesmer?

Because they already have. They can’t cast 2~4 skills at the same time (weapon skills). It would be like using HS + Death Blossom together, it doesn’t happen.

Forcing you to use one skill at a time is not a GCD. You can’t say that skills have a GCD because there’s a cast time or an animation duration. GCD is a cooldown that is placed across the board. Most skills cannot be used while using another skill. That’s how most of these games work. If you had a GCD on your weapon skills, that would mean all your weapon skills get a “greyed-out” effect for the duration of the GCD. This does not happen.

Edit: possante beat me to it, but yeah.

ilJumperMT.4871:

Why dont you give Thieves .25 GCD like mesmer?

Um… What?
.25s is the cast time for backstab…
I don’t know why you’re so mad, but stop spamming the forums with it. You’re embarrassing yourself.

But autoattack chain have GCD.

Auto attacks don’t have GCD, they just have animations they need to get through to move to the next attack, as all moves do (aside from a very few “non-animation” moves in the game that can be done in the middle of other moves).

Why dont you give Thieves .25 GCD like mesmer?

As mentioned in the Mesmer threads, the GCD on Shatters is not an intended design decision, it’s a patch for an exploit. Basically, they don’t want Mesmers to have a GCD, but there was some exploit people were doing in which they were apparently getting multiple shatter effects off the same group of illusions, and they can’t figure out exactly what’s allowing that, so their two solutions were to A: allow the exploit to continue, or B: make a change that fixes the exploit (which also stopping some behavior they have no issue with), until they can figure out a more precise solution.

So, long story short, don’t take out your frustrations on other classes, this would be a completely different issue.

Does it only work with utility skills? Because i cant cast heal and ride the lightning for example, while rtl is instant cast. Same with updraft and other instant cast skills. Maybe this only applies to casting skills that pins you in place?

Instant-cast are their own thing, different from “moves that go off instantly.” Instant casts have no animation of their own, they just happen. For example, on the Guardian Shouts can be cast during other moves, while dropping shields cannot. I can’t think of any weapon skills that are instant-cast, even if they activate immediately.

Jumper.9482:

ilJumperMT.4871:

Why dont you give Thieves .25 GCD like mesmer?

Um… What?
.25s is the cast time for backstab…
I don’t know why you’re so mad, but stop spamming the forums with it. You’re embarrassing yourself.

what this post have something to do with this topic? we are not talking about skills cast time….

and IMO that 0,25s on mesmer shatter could be permanent, dont know why people complain much about it. im a mesmer and IMO is step in diretion of balance the game ( SS huge buff no one understand so dont do anything like that again please arenanet)

possante.8310:

typingofthedead.5614:

Jon, on a related note, can u or anyone say if the chilled effect slows thief initiative regen?

pretty sure not , 60% slow regen on thief initiative will make them useless.

i mean, i think thats more fair then them being largely immune to a condition just because of the nature of their class mechanic

Then what’s the point of this topic? Adding a 0.25s between skills wouldn’t change much, since the animation takes longer than that to finish. More than that? Like 2 seconds? I don’t think this will happen.

“This is in fact the point of initiative and why thieves feel different than other professions.”
Meant to spamm.

Asomal.6453:

Then what’s the point of this topic? Adding a 0.25s between skills wouldn’t change much, since the animation takes longer than that to finish. More than that? Like 2 seconds? I don’t think this will happen.

“This is in fact the point of initiative and why thieves feel different than other professions.”
Meant to spamm.

what i want is a 0,25CD after animation end

typingofthedead.5614:

possante.8310:

typingofthedead.5614:

Jon, on a related note, can u or anyone say if the chilled effect slows thief initiative regen?

pretty sure not , 60% slow regen on thief initiative will make them useless.

i mean, i think thats more fair then them being largely immune to a condition just because of the nature of their class mechanic

Their utility, heals and elites are affected by chill.
The classes gimmick is mobility and Chill strips the majority of that power as well.
They’re not largely immune.

Anyways all skills are supposed to be usable at least twice in a row for thieves. That’s the point of initiative. You can use anything twice, but it’ll impair your ability to do anything else.

I’d like a 0.25 CD on thief skills, I hate using two of them at once, thief skills should never que.

ensoriki.5789:

typingofthedead.5614:

possante.8310:

typingofthedead.5614:

Jon, on a related note, can u or anyone say if the chilled effect slows thief initiative regen?

pretty sure not , 60% slow regen on thief initiative will make them useless.

i mean, i think thats more fair then them being largely immune to a condition just because of the nature of their class mechanic

Their utility, heals and elites are affected by chill.
The classes gimmick is mobility and Chill strips the majority of that power as well.
They’re not largely immune.

obvious they are. initiative is only used for weapon skill

JonPeters.5630:

Yes this is part of the design of the combat.

First of all, thank you very much for the answers.

Once you’re here, can I ask you about the current state of the necromancer.
Do you think necro has a viable power build right now?
What are the odds of necro axe receiving a revamp (since its pretty much a copy of a dagger mechanic-wise)? Is there a chance necro gets at least one movement/evade weapon skill in the future?

These are the fields community feels are lacking for necro. We would, as a necromancer community, welcome any hints.

Leman

JonPeters.5630:

This is not true, skills have a cast time and after cast based on the animation they use. To ease any thief worries we are not limiting back to back skill use on purpose. This is in fact the point of initiative and why thieves feel different than other professions.

Coud i make a suggestion of considering putting a vote system on the forum that lets the community vote if something needs a change ?

a 6 sec recharge on “cloak and dagger” skill woud be 1 of my suggestions.
its the only problem on thief class in my eye’s.

It woud give people 2 seconds of reacting to the thief popping out of stealth.
Just unables the thief to go wright back into stealth with same skill he just used before.
Doesnt unable him to use utility’s to pop back into stealth tho , just stops the unlimited stealth in a fight.
and it woud punish thiefs that miss there cloak and dagger

else the spamming of evrything is ok on thief i think ( just not for endless stealth ).

ty for your time
i hope you consider the voting on forum by the community to resolve problems

regards Jim

Sprawl.3891:

was it designed for HS to be a spammable gap closer that requires no skill to land on target?

if a thief spams HS as a gap closer, when he lands on the target he has NO initiative left to hit him besides auto attack, if you see a thief do that he is a bad players and if you are not you can easily take him down.

possante.8310:

what i want is a 0,25CD after animation end

Sorry man but no one cares about what you want…

Daecollo.9578:

I’d like a 0.25 CD on thief skills, I hate using two of them at once, thief skills should never que.

I had the same problem coming from an MMO were spamming was needed due to no ability queue, but with time you get use to it, just requires concentration at start, then it becomes automatic

Volrath.1473:

Sprawl.3891:

was it designed for HS to be a spammable gap closer that requires no skill to land on target?

if a thief spams HS as a gap closer, when he lands on the target he has NO initiative left to hit him besides auto attack, if you see a thief do that he is a bad players and if you are not you can easily take him down.

possante.8310:

what i want is a 0,25CD after animation end

Sorry man but no one cares about what you want…

Daecollo.9578:

I’d like a 0.25 CD on thief skills, I hate using two of them at once, thief skills should never que.

I had the same problem coming from an MMO were spamming was needed due to no ability queue, but with time you get use to it, just requires concentration at start, then it becomes automatic

no one cares about what i suggest but i see lot of guys agree with me and even get 2 dev reply…..

possante.8310:

ensoriki.5789:

typingofthedead.5614:

possante.8310:

typingofthedead.5614:

Jon, on a related note, can u or anyone say if the chilled effect slows thief initiative regen?

pretty sure not , 60% slow regen on thief initiative will make them useless.

i mean, i think thats more fair then them being largely immune to a condition just because of the nature of their class mechanic

Their utility, heals and elites are affected by chill.
The classes gimmick is mobility and Chill strips the majority of that power as well.
They’re not largely immune.

obvious they are. initiative is only used for weapon skill

I’m actually massively suprised by this.

I run a power necro in spvp as he has access to quite alot of chill effects.

Since Chill is listed as ‘skill cooldown increased by 66%’ and since a thieves skill cooldown is his initiative recharge. I have absolutely no idea why its not affected?

It seems more like a design oversight than a design choice.

To me, it feels alot like saying ’Warriors need mobility to fight. Chill counters mobility, so all Warriors should be immune to any snares and slows.

I actually really would love some Dev replies to some more of the questions posed in this thread. They seem to be on a roll at the minute with descriptive and open replies

Visionary.5681:

possante.8310:

ensoriki.5789:

typingofthedead.5614:

possante.8310:

typingofthedead.5614:

Jon, on a related note, can u or anyone say if the chilled effect slows thief initiative regen?

pretty sure not , 60% slow regen on thief initiative will make them useless.

i mean, i think thats more fair then them being largely immune to a condition just because of the nature of their class mechanic

Their utility, heals and elites are affected by chill.
The classes gimmick is mobility and Chill strips the majority of that power as well.
They’re not largely immune.

obvious they are. initiative is only used for weapon skill

I’m actually massively suprised by this.

I run a power necro in spvp as he has access to quite alot of chill effects.

Since Chill is listed as ‘skill cooldown increased by 66%’ and since a thieves skill cooldown is his initiative recharge. I have absolutely no idea why its not affected?

It seems more like a design oversight than a design choice.

To me, it feels alot like saying ’Warriors need mobility to fight. Chill counters mobility, so all Warriors should be immune to any snares and slows.

I actually really would love some Dev replies to some more of the questions posed in this thread. They seem to be on a roll at the minute with descriptive and open replies

Lowering Initative System by 66% would be devastating, it would mean we would have to wait almost 3 seconds to get 1 initiative, it might as well be a daze for the duration.

Imagine being dazed for 5-8 seconds in pvp, or 30 seconds in pve, not fun.

Thieves might be able to use the same skill over and over, but we can’t use as many skills as other classes can.

Think of thieves like mages in other games, we have a big pool to use abilitys from and we can use them back to back, but then we have to wait awile to use them again, unlike other classes.

Thieves seem powerful but not too powerful.

I dont really have much trouble with them to be honest. And youll never win a 1on1 vs a good bunker with the way thieves spec in the meta because its for burst.

Void.4239:

Coud i make a suggestion of considering putting a vote system on the forum that lets the community vote if something needs a change ?

While that does sound nice at first, pure direct democracy usually results in poor decisions, because propaganda and kneejerk reactions are not the best advisors.

Also, balancing in favor of the lowest common denominator is basically a surefire way to eliminate all serious competition in the upper tiers of spvp.

wintermute.4096:

Void.4239:

Coud i make a suggestion of considering putting a vote system on the forum that lets the community vote if something needs a change ?

While that does sound nice at first, pure direct democracy usually results in poor decisions, because propaganda and kneejerk reactions are not the best advisors.

Also, balancing in favor of the lowest common denominator is basically a surefire way to eliminate all serious competition in the upper tiers of spvp.

:D yeah probably a lot of work to figure out a system that works. tho never a bad idea to see how majority of the people feel about something ( yes /no answers).

Just as backup .
Maybe they could also ask the top x teams in tpvp to vote on 1 exclusive for them.
So they can compare if the results are close or not ( get out those false negatives), at least they get a clearer picture on how folks think about stuff instead of all the QQ topics from kids that overwhelm the forums.

(i assume the top pvp teams know the game pretty well and hopefully are mature enough to help get a healthier game )

really think its worth the trouble at the end.

Volrath.1473:

Sprawl.3891:

was it designed for HS to be a spammable gap closer that requires no skill to land on target?

if a thief spams HS as a gap closer, when he lands on the target he has NO initiative left to hit him besides auto attack, if you see a thief do that he is a bad players and if you are not you can easily take him down.

possante.8310:

what i want is a 0,25CD after animation end

Sorry man but no one cares about what you want…

Daecollo.9578:

I’d like a 0.25 CD on thief skills, I hate using two of them at once, thief skills should never que.

I had the same problem coming from an MMO were spamming was needed due to no ability queue, but with time you get use to it, just requires concentration at start, then it becomes automatic

you dont need to spam to use it as a gap closer, it IS a gap closer by itself (ranged use ability) and requires zero skill to land on your target in that it automatically moves you to the target vs manually aimed ability that requires skill.

Coud i make a suggestion of considering putting a vote system on the forum that lets the community vote if something needs a change ?

A voting system wouldn’t provide very useful data. For example, if only 1/8th of players play any given class, then wouldn’t a call to nerf just about any trait of another class that people tended to fin annoying result in more than 50% of the people saying “sure?”

JonPeters.5630:

felivear.1536:

JonPeters.5630:

This is not true, skills have a cast time and after cast based on the animation they use. To ease any thief worries we are not limiting back to back skill use on purpose. This is in fact the point of initiative and why thieves feel different than other professions.

just curious, are you happy with and is it your intention for moves with no cast time to be able to be used in the middle of a move with a cast time? For instance lightning flash during churning earth and steal during cloak and dagger.

Yes this is part of the design of the combat.

I wish ya’ll would add a 0.25 second cast/animation to steal, it would address so many complaints of thief burst without affecting its intended purpose of a gap closer / unique ability after use on various classes. Thieves could still use shadowstep as instant cast gap closer but without the complaints of the stacking damage of mug/c+d+backstab leading to insta-gibs.

Ohoni.6057:

Coud i make a suggestion of considering putting a vote system on the forum that lets the community vote if something needs a change ?

A voting system wouldn’t provide very useful data. For example, if only 1/8th of players play any given class, then wouldn’t a call to nerf just about any trait of another class that people tended to fin annoying result in more than 50% of the people saying “sure?”

in that case you could ask the top x pvp teams to do an exclusive vote
so that they can compare it with the general public.( get out those false negatives)

in cases of 60% for Nerf and 40% against it , that would show that they do not need to Nerf it seeing a huge part of the public finds it ok.

if 80 % says nerf and 20 % is against it , then its sad but probably true that the class is to strong and needs adjusting( or will need adjusting in the future )

But they need to find a way to get a better understanding of what the community really wants to see changed in pvp . ( vote is 1 kind of solution)
Instead of only seeing QQ topics on forums and assuming a huge part of the public finds it a problem

just trying to trow the idea to the devs , maybe they can brainstorm around it a bit or something.

I support the 0.25s cooldown between the same Thief weapon skills – not even for balance reasons.

I have the problem that I burn initiative by accidentially activating the same skill twice. (Then again, I also tend to insta-leave Death Shroud or Plague…)

What skills would u want to put on 0.25s cd when there is already higher cd on them?
HS has 0.75s cast time. So if you spam that there is at least 0.75s delay between consecutive hits.
I heard ppl talk about ‘backstab’ spam. That is nonsense: if you hit with backstab, you cannot enter stealth (prerequisite for another backstab) for another 3sec or so (revealed debuff). Hence, minimum time between two consecutive backstabs is at least 3 sec. Same thing with all other attacks from stealth.
If you are talking about ability to instant cast steal in the middle of other skills (like C&D) without interrupting them, other classes have that ability as well.
So what is the issue?

issue= haste……..

pmnt.4067:

I support the 0.25s cooldown between the same Thief weapon skills – not even for balance reasons.

I have the problem that I burn initiative by accidentially activating the same skill twice. (Then again, I also tend to insta-leave Death Shroud or Plague…)

sounds like you need to start using your fingers instead of your face.

in that case you could ask the top x pvp teams to do an exclusive vote
so that they can compare it with the general public.( get out those false negatives)

Why would PvP players matter? for one thing, they’d be no less biased than the general population. For another, it would dismiss more than 80% of the game’s content, and the vast majority of the players.

But they need to find a way to get a better understanding of what the community really wants to see changed in pvp . ( vote is 1 kind of solution)

What players want to see isn’t particularly relevant when it comes to balance. What players need is. If a given element is leading to genuine imbalance, they should fix it. If not, then they shouldn’t, no mater how many people complain. They have metrics to determine if a given class tends to outperform others, or if certain move/trait set-ups tend to get overused, those provide far more useful data than player anecdotes.

Shukran.4851:

issue= haste……..

Even with haste, what is the issue? Stealth skills are still on same cd, even with haste you cannot re-enter stealth sooner.
As for ‘hs-spam’, please, hasted thief who is hs spamming can be dodged-away from (two times). He will do not dmg to you to speak of and he is out of initative and out of endurance at the end of his ‘burst’. Besides when hasted hs has like 1/2 of leap distance (is that a bug?).
Haste is on 60s cooldown and it can be easily countered with any short term invul: two dodges, or mist form, or mesmers invul, or pain response, or…whatever.

Why do you see fit for one profession to have a spammable gap closer, homes right to target, conditions, combo finishers, and huge damage to boot. Why? All in one SPAMMABLE move.

Why do you see fit for one profession to have a spammable gap closer, homes right to target, conditions, combo finishers, and huge damage to boot. Why? All in one SPAMMABLE move.

Which profession are you talking about? I play a thief and I wish we had a spammable gap closer, especially one that did condition damage. We have Infiltrator’s Arrow, which can blind, but deals no damage and you can’t use it more than a couple times in a row. It’s also not a finisher.