Guild Wars 2

I’m 40+ r from mostly tourni’s and main a condi necro. In my experience I dominate most classes in 1v1 situations and feel like the MVP in team fights . Not trying to toot my own horn, but I feel a well played necro is beyond good, so reading the threads about tier lists and overall hate for the necro came as a shock.

Why do people feel that way about the necromancer?

Necro can fit into a team and do a good job. It just isnt essential or defining like guardian, ele or mesmer. Those classes are way more powerful than a necro.

No mobility, no blocks, fairly weak attacks, etc etc

Login.5102:

I’m 40+ r from mostly tourni’s and main a condi necro. In my experience I dominate most classes in 1v1 situations and feel like the MVP in team fights . Not trying to toot my own horn, but I feel a well played necro is beyond good, so reading the threads about tier lists and overall hate for the necro came as a shock.

Why do people feel that way about the necromancer?

Nothing stop baddies from chatting crap, that’s why

The “tier list” is pointless and uninformed. There is no data to back it up, only just how some people “feel.” There is at least 1 necro in the top 10.

It’s not like in a fighting game with tons of players and 1v1 tournaments to draw on. It’s a team game with millions of builds.

I don;t feel like the balance is too bad in gw2 honestly, and I know I’m in the minority on that. My teir list, groups not in order:

Ele
guard

Engi
Ranger
Necro

Thief
Warrior

I have thief and warrior at the bottom but they can both be very good

You have no Mesmer either.

I think the thing about Tier lists are ; top group is what a premade requires to be competitive. mid tier is what classes are viable. bottom tier is the kitten tier.

Its not so much about the balance of the classes as their ability to play domination games.

Yeah I don’t really think the “tier lists” have necros low cause the creators think they’re bad, but cause the other classes are either more useful or just OP in some regard.

I mean every tourney team needs a guardian to bunker, and most usually search for mesmers for home point guards cause they’re OP 1v1 and have portal, then thieves make the best burst cause they also have a lot of utility, and eles are simply OP in general so why not take several of them?

So I personally put necro after those 4 classes but ahead of engies, rangers, and obviously the UP warrior. But there are some frustratingly good engie builds coming out and due to the necros higher skill cap more people are favoring the engie now (higher then these newer engie builds, i know the engineer has an incredibly high skill cap in general, hold the flaming…).

Cam Ron.4170:

I have thief and warrior at the bottom but they can both be very good

That’s half true half false.

Thieves can be very useful in MANY different ways in small and large fights. Warriors on the other hand literally have NOTHING going for them, so no they can not be “very good.”

Also you didn’t even put mesmer on your list.

I personally see it like this:

TOP TIER:

-Ele
-Guardian
-Mesmer

MID TIER:

-Thief
-Necro
-Engie
-Ranger

LOW TIER:

-Warrior

And in that order, the first three are almost essential for tourney teams (with ele simply being OP, essential or not). The next four are all viable options in some way but are not necessary, an ele can replace any of them basically. Finally the warrior, there is no reason to take a warrior over any of the other classes.

Vicarious.3047:

Yeah I don’t really think the “tier lists” have necros low cause the creators think they’re bad, but cause the other classes are either more useful or just OP in some regard.

I mean every tourney team needs a guardian to bunker, and most usually search for mesmers for home point guards cause they’re OP 1v1 and have portal, then thieves make the best burst cause they also have a lot of utility, and eles are simply OP in general so why not take several of them?

So I personally put necro after those 4 classes but ahead of engies, rangers, and obviously the UP warrior. But there are some frustratingly good engie builds coming out and due to the necros higher skill cap more people are favoring the engie now (higher then these newer engie builds, i know the engineer has an incredibly high skill cap in general, hold the flaming…).

Cam Ron.4170:

I have thief and warrior at the bottom but they can both be very good

That’s half true half false.

Thieves can be very useful in MANY different ways in small and large fights. Warriors on the other hand literally have NOTHING going for them, so no they can not be “very good.”

Also you didn’t even put mesmer on your list.

I personally see it like this:

TOP TIER:

-Ele
-Guardian
-Mesmer

MID TIER:

-Thief
-Necro
-Engie
-Ranger

LOW TIER:

-Warrior

And in that order, the first three are almost essential for tourney teams (with ele simply being OP, essential or not). The next four are all viable options in some way but are not necessary, an ele can replace any of them basically. Finally the warrior, there is no reason to take a warrior over any of the other classes.

I shall not hold the flaming sir. Necros are ez mode in comparison to HGH engis and are far inferior in general due to a lack of burning, lack of condi variety and lack of physical damage. They’re also less reactionary in the sense that their main damaging abilities are also their main CC and access to poison. Their lack of a stun break in builds running signet of undeath hampers their survivability immesnely. The “fix” to epidemic just kicked em while they were already down. While you could consider them “good”, other classes do their job and do it MUCH, MUUUUUUCH better.

But seriously, engis are not easy to play. God kittening kitten

Ostricheggs.3742:

But seriously, engis are not easy to play. God kittening kitten

Vicarious.3047:

… i know the engineer has an incredibly high skill cap in general…

As I said, I know.

And I just personally found HGH engie builds to be kinda easy to play where as necros with their DS management and, as you said, lack of stability/stun breakers makes them fairly difficult to no only do their job but live while doing it. HGH engies have it easy in that regard cause once again AS YOU SAID they do everything at once.

I guess I just view necros as “better” for teams cause someone who is good at necros and can do all that stuff I mentioned will wipe an entire team in no time, you just don’t see those necros around all that often, where as it’s EASY to steam roll people with the new engie builds making them a more common appearance.

I never said engies are easy to play, just with those builds it’s easier to be good, as you have said yourself.

yes it’s easier to be good, because necros are bad. Good necros playing near the skill cap CAN wipe teams so quick that you’ll kitten yourself, but no where near the rate someone like me can with an engi. The objective differences are clear, the major one being burning. The differences in skillcap are subjective but also, in my opinion, clear because of grenades being the hardest skillshot in the game as well as the larger variety and single-application condis. Death shroud management is hardly “management” in any real sense and marks are kitten easy to land in comparison to something like grenades. They also have notably less impact outside of putrid mark in comparison to grenades.

Jugglign might stacks with elixirs is a double edged sword and requires an experienced player. Knowing when to move in and out of a fight is something almost unheard of on a necro because their abilities are hardly range dependent in the slightest. Understanding when to be, and when not to be, in kits, understanding how to kit swap properly and understanding how to react to every single class and spec is the bare MINIMUM for playing an HGH engi. Calling a necro harder is kinda crazy IMO and I object greatly >:(

Ostricheggs.3742:

yes it’s easier to be good, because necros are bad. Good necros playing near the skill cap CAN wipe teams so quick that you’ll kitten yourself, but no where near the rate someone like me can with an engi. The objective differences are clear, the major one being burning. The differences in skillcap are subjective but also, in my opinion, clear because of grenades being the hardest skillshot in the game as well as the larger variety and single-application condis. Death shroud management is hardly “management” in any real sense and marks are kitten easy to land in comparison to something like grenades. They also have notably less impact outside of putrid mark in comparison to grenades.

Jugglign might stacks with elixirs is a double edged sword and requires an experienced player. Knowing when to move in and out of a fight is something almost unheard of on a necro because their abilities are hardly range dependent in the slightest. Understanding when to be, and when not to be, in kits, understanding how to kit swap properly and understanding how to react to every single class and spec is the bare MINIMUM for playing an HGH engi. Calling a necro harder is kinda crazy IMO and I object greatly >:(

ok man engie is fun we know it! but saying necro is much easier is not true..you keep oversimplify every action other classes require from the player while at same time you praise and give more than enough credit to ..throwing grenades.
Come on..its just aoe spam with delay..staff ele has more delay on his kitten only much much less impact.Thief shortbow has gtaoe with delay too etc..
Just be happy thats actually viable

point is that i can give similar class/build description (perhaps even more sophisticated) for any class you want..:P

Wel I object greatly to you in return, cause as you said in your opinion.

I personally found kit swapping to be an easy task where as DS jumping takes more finesse. And not all necros are ranged, mind you, the most difficult necro builds are the DS jumping dagger melee necros, which are very powerful if played right.

And understanding how to react to each class isn’t an exclusive engineer requirement you know, every class aside from eles maybe need to be good at that.

But you’re obviously set in stone on your OPINIONS as I am mine, so I won’t push this any further, it would be pointless.

kostbabis.8791:

point is that i can give similar class/build description (perhaps even more sophisticated) for any class you want..:P

True facts.

I know it’s an oversimplification and probably condescending. And no, it’s not aoe spam in tourneys. AoE spam is standing off a point and throwing nades on a point and hoping someone walks into them. actually LANDING grenades on a moving target actively engaging you requires far more skill than landing a mark in the same situation. Cluster bombs can (and should) be blown up mid air when over the target making them far easier to land because of the speed of the slow moving cluster bombs. Staff eles are just lol, I can’t really comment on them.

All I’m objecting to is calling HGH easier than playing a necro. Necros are easier by a mile.

Login.5102:

I’m 40+ r from mostly tourni’s and main a condi necro. In my experience I dominate most classes in 1v1 situations and feel like the MVP in team fights . Not trying to toot my own horn, but I feel a well played necro is beyond good, so reading the threads about tier lists and overall hate for the necro came as a shock.

Why do people feel that way about the necromancer?

When a necro has all of its cooldowns up, it’s one of the strongest classes in the game and can give anybody a run for their money. Once those are down, they drop off and are not as strong as the t1 classes (ele, engi, ranger, guard, mesmer).

If they had better long fight sustain, I would put them in tier 1. Thief has the same issue IMO.

Ostricheggs.3742:

clear because of grenades being the hardest skillshot in the game

I don’t recall grenades being any harder to land than Cluster bombing or Arcing Arrow at the same distance.

Necro is support classs. You can do many build’s but in the end you will be supporter and thats why you can’t say necro is tier 1.
Firstly Sry for my bad english.
If you want to compare Necro and Eng – In cond. builds Eng is harder to play ,but in Power builds Necro [Never play’d Necro in Tank builds, cuz my team doesnt need any].

Necro is NOT the strongest class even in full Power build, ’cuz its not so mobile nor leak of defence as :Mesemer, Ele or Thief

The worst thing for necro is Public games, because Necro is team player.

hope Arena net will fix Minions AI soon, so it would be possible [effective] to play as MM Necro as well.

Necros are not a weak class, they might be one of the best balanced classes.

I think Necros, played well, are very, very powerful tools.

On the other hand, at least your class doesn’t have people complaining that it’s OP and people whining that it’s insanely weak… Thieves, on the other hand…

realistically, more about the player than class that is important. but of course, that’s not the point of class tiers.

the other day, i faced a necro who literally just stood on point. didn’t move AT all and would barely lose any health. any health lost would be regained. extremely tanky and by doing so, bought time for his teams or distracted more than 1 or 2 players while the rest of his team could go cap other stuff. very awesome.

akamon.2769:

realistically, more about the player than class that is important. but of course, that’s not the point of class tiers.

the other day, i faced a necro who literally just stood on point. didn’t move AT all and would barely lose any health. any health lost would be regained. extremely tanky and by doing so, bought time for his teams or distracted more than 1 or 2 players while the rest of his team could go cap other stuff. very awesome.

sound great, but i rearly think tanky necro can support team on point fight as Guardian.
But as i said before – Necro is team supporter and it is realy hard to play necro on solo

When you can bring a necro without staff or corrupt boon/well of corruption, then you can say they’e a strong class.

The only reason necros exist is because the meta revolves around boon stacking, and necros and mesmers are the only classes with counters to it.

You don’t bring a necro for his damage, because it’s bad. Or his survivability, which is easily the worst in game after warriors in spvp.

You bring the necro for the staff aoe chiil, condi transfer, and fear interrupt and boon removal. A dagger or axe necro is nothing special that any other class cannot replace better, and all necro utilities that are not corrupt boon/epidemic wells/signet are not being used. How many necros are using spectral wall or poison cloud or minions or axe weapon?

Zenith , i have to disagree with you!
Necro is good example for class balance.
Necro can play most of the roles in game. The problem with necro is that other classes are still not in balance [same Ele].
With Necro you can deal good dmg while controlling enemy,can be great distance supporter with conditions and pretty good tank . Only thing that isnt working are Minions .
I understand that some classes can deal much more dmg and survive longer [acutaly only 2 classes can do that :Ele and Ranger], but it is only because of disbalance and nothing more.

Shame that most of the teams are using Necros exactly as you said, but Dager necros are really cool )

ensoriki.5789:

Ostricheggs.3742:

clear because of grenades being the hardest skillshot in the game

I don’t recall grenades being any harder to land than Cluster bombing or Arcing Arrow at the same distance.

No, but you don’t see a thief devoting all of his time trying to land a clust bomb at 900 range.

We get NO mid range abilities worth a kitten outside of grenades. Our 1’s on both pistols and grenades are the worst in the game. The worst in the game.

It’s the hardest skill shot in the game because it’s the most used when taken.

Ostricheggs.3742:

I know it’s an oversimplification and probably condescending. And no, it’s not aoe spam in tourneys. AoE spam is standing off a point and throwing nades on a point and hoping someone walks into them. actually LANDING grenades on a moving target actively engaging you requires far more skill than landing a mark in the same situation. Cluster bombs can (and should) be blown up mid air when over the target making them far easier to land because of the speed of the slow moving cluster bombs. Staff eles are just lol, I can’t really comment on them.

Must be really hard to land those on a small node, especially on a melee class, or someone trying to kite around on that tiny node in order to prevent it being uncapped, or especially (!) after using that whooping supply kit elite, rite?

The engi really has it all:
- OP cond damage which can only be parralleled by necros when a dozen of boons is corrupted successfully, or a dozen of cond stacks is returned successfully (how sad is dat),
- OP boon stacking (seen my fair share of engins running around with 25 might stacks and a handful of other boons at the same time),
- Good CC (moar knockbacks please),
- OP damage from both weap sets and the kitten turrets.
Talk about ritualist gone bad. At least it takes somewhat more skill ( I guess?) than a ritualist does, and than eles do, so that’s a plus.

Having said that, I really love playing with engis as a necro. Most likely my n1 choice of a ‘partner’ next to a good warrior that can quickly discern a corrupt on a stack of boons, including stability, and follows up with their damage.

P.S. Necro wand and dagger offhand aoe are a pain in the meow to land, because they hit with half a sec/one sec delay on top of their nearly 1 s cast time.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Ostricheggs.3742:

I know it’s an oversimplification and probably condescending. And no, it’s not aoe spam in tourneys. AoE spam is standing off a point and throwing nades on a point and hoping someone walks into them. actually LANDING grenades on a moving target actively engaging you requires far more skill than landing a mark in the same situation. Cluster bombs can (and should) be blown up mid air when over the target making them far easier to land because of the speed of the slow moving cluster bombs. Staff eles are just lol, I can’t really comment on them.

Must be really hard to land those on a small node, especially on a melee class, or someone trying to kite around on that tiny node in order to prevent it being uncapped, or especially (!) after using that whooping supply kit elite, rite?

The engi really has it all:
- OP cond damage which can only be parralleled by necros when a dozen of boons is corrupted successfully, or a dozen of cond stacks is returned successfully (how sad is dat),
- OP boon stacking (seen my fair share of engins running around with 25 might stacks and a handful of other boons at the same time),
- Good CC (moar knockbacks please),
- OP damage from both weap sets and the kitten turrets.
Talk about ritualist gone bad. At least it takes somewhat more skill ( I guess?) than a ritualist does, and than eles do, so that’s a plus.

Having said that, I really love playing with engis as a necro. Most likely my n1 choice of a ‘partner’ next to a good warrior that can quickly discern a corrupt on a stack of boons, including stability, and follows up with their damage.

P.S. Necro wand and dagger offhand aoe are a pain in the meow to land, because they hit with half a sec/one sec delay on top of their nearly 1 s cast time.

Knock backs? Are we talking the same build here? The trade mark of HGH is the relative lack of CC compared to other engibuilds. 1 sec aoe imob on 20 or something cooldown and the freeze grenade. Supply crate if things get rough, and that got 180 sec recharge for that stun. HGH isn’t extremely hard to play but it isn’t as braindead as everyone wants to claim (funny i thought DD ele and shatter mes was equally at least as “easy” when i played it but people claim that it requires skill, different taste i suppose). The HGH have to deal with the fact that he haven’t got so many tricks up his sleeve to survive as is usually recommended when running it, maybe because engineers in general are like a frolicking pinata for points and stomping the engineer in a teamfight is as natural and easy as making a sandwich.

Oh and about those turrets, an engi running turrets have to sacrifice for traits in a relatively bad traitline and more traits in decent traitlines, sacrifice his primary mechanic (toolbelts are bad outside of SD builds and the net attack), sacrifice weaponsets, sacrifice stunbreaks, sacrifice decent conditionremoval and personal defense. Oh and turrets are immobile and mindbogglingly dumb (they will for example attack the point if you do not own it, attack clones, pets, and destructible objects to mention a few. Don’t you think they ought to have some kind of advantage vs 1 lone player without a pet, summon, or so? Or maybe you are talking the supply drop turrets? I rarely see them as they evaporate in about the same second one drops the crate. And of course you can still destroy turrets if one in particular bothers you. They go on a full cd after they are destroyed, not while being deployed. But i must apologize as i realize that turrets can probably be a royal pain in the kittens when fully condition based as they are thankfully immune to that.

I was talking in general more than about a specific builds, although they often combine(d) multiple of things I listed in one build.

As far as turrets are concerned, it matters little whether or not they’re immobile – you only ever drop them to contest or defend a point, and we all know how small most nodes are. And yea, killing them as a condi nec is pretty funny – you can do it with plague form (takes about half its duration), while the engi leisurely pewpews at you from a distance :P. The main offender in the turret line is the immobilize one though. I can imagine classes with pets are at an advantage, but then again, turrets are in a way pets too, so…

P.S. How does a turret ‘attack a point’?

I remember one night I tried necro in pvp and I got this one build down pretty good and was just straight wrecking people and was asking the same question to myself

KarlaGrey.5903:

I was talking in general more than about a specific builds, although they often combine(d) multiple of things I listed in one build.

As far as turrets are concerned, it matters little whether or not they’re immobile – you only ever drop them to contest or defend a point, and we all know how small most nodes are. And yea, killing them as a condi nec is pretty funny – you can do it with plague form (takes about half its duration), while the engi leisurely pewpews at you from a distance :P. The main offender in the turret line is the immobilize one though. I can imagine classes with pets are at an advantage, but then again, turrets are in a way pets too, so…

P.S. How does a turret ‘attack a point’?

The point is an object, you can see this extra clear when a thief is attacking you with trickshot while you are defending the point. It will bounce between you and the point “entity” and back again (doubling their auto dps) as it recognises the point as belonging to the enemy and as it being an enemy. In the case of turrets they will keep from attacking it as long as you own it.

Ostricheggs.3742:

yes it’s easier to be good, because necros are bad. Good necros playing near the skill cap CAN wipe teams so quick that you’ll kitten yourself, but no where near the rate someone like me can with an engi. The objective differences are clear, the major one being burning. The differences in skillcap are subjective but also, in my opinion, clear because of grenades being the hardest skillshot in the game as well as the larger variety and single-application condis. Death shroud management is hardly “management” in any real sense and marks are kitten easy to land in comparison to something like grenades. They also have notably less impact outside of putrid mark in comparison to grenades.

Jugglign might stacks with elixirs is a double edged sword and requires an experienced player. Knowing when to move in and out of a fight is something almost unheard of on a necro because their abilities are hardly range dependent in the slightest. Understanding when to be, and when not to be, in kits, understanding how to kit swap properly and understanding how to react to every single class and spec is the bare MINIMUM for playing an HGH engi. Calling a necro harder is kinda crazy IMO and I object greatly >:(

It’s subjective. You believe they are harder because you have more to think about, he believes Necros are harder because they have more to WORRY about. Subjective discussion is subjective.

But in my opinion, I think you overstate the difficulty of playing the HGH Engie. Most of the things you speak of about entering or exiting a fight is what most classes with a damage oriented role have to think about too. An HGH engie could sit on the sidelines chucking grenades and not have to worry about getting into the centre fight because he’s still relatively effective chucking grenades than jumping in the middle.

And I’ve seen you play your Engie. You play it with some next level camera spin that I don’t think anyone else playing the build would attempt. Not even Teldo has that level of camera movement and he plays a similar build.

The truth is, the HGH engie has the same things to worry about as any other class, just with some slight differences. Landing grenades on a moving target is hard but chucking grenades on an ongoing fight on a point? So easy I could do it blind.

All in all, this is PvP in an MMO… it doesn’t take long to pick up any profession with any build.

On topic, necros are an example of one of the more balanced professions. As others have mentioned, you can get more for less with classes like eles, guardians, and mesmers.

I havent found Necro to be that low on the scale… Some I’ve meet have been close to Guardians in terms being unkillable bunkers.

The difference between necro and engi is that necro’s are MUCH easier to blow up. I’ve played my share of necro as well as Thief and I can tell you a necro makes for a much easier target. Dead necro = no dps.

Yes, I know DS, chills etc all hamper them dying against a thief, but a necro focused on AOE’ing a point is usually caught unaware. Lack of stun breaks is their downfall. Engi can do just as much and is a harder kill.

Interesting that this became a discussion about engi v. necro difficulty.

Anyway, Necro in all of its forms has a higher skill floor than engi, but the HGH engi and the viable necro builds both have high skill caps. I suppose it is a subjective debate with regards to this aspect of the discussion.

What can be said about Necro relative to other classes is that their stun breaks are trash, they have no access to blocking, invulnerable, vigor, stealth, stun/daze (other than the minion elite which is not as good as plague or lich and warhorn 4 which is arguably the worst off hand for a necro regardless of if they are power or condi)or knock back (except when in Lich). That is a heavy price to pay for the utility of shroud. The class cannot do damage in any form as well as other classes, can’t support as well as other classes, can’t bunker as well as other classes, has no mobility, and if it is trained and chain CC’d can’t survive and can’t escape.

It isn’t that Necro is awful, infact it has better versatility than most classes. For a Necro to be truly effective in any role, though, it needs team support. All of the other classes have better ways to be self sufficient and easier ways to play.

I would submit that the biggest problem with necro is that it is balanced around an assumption of passive damage from minions that no competent player is really using in any serious way, where other classes (I’m looking at Mesmer in particular) didn’t get the same treatment with respect to their ability to generate passive damage.

Dirame.8521:

Ostricheggs.3742:

yes it’s easier to be good, because necros are bad. Good necros playing near the skill cap CAN wipe teams so quick that you’ll kitten yourself, but no where near the rate someone like me can with an engi. The objective differences are clear, the major one being burning. The differences in skillcap are subjective but also, in my opinion, clear because of grenades being the hardest skillshot in the game as well as the larger variety and single-application condis. Death shroud management is hardly “management” in any real sense and marks are kitten easy to land in comparison to something like grenades. They also have notably less impact outside of putrid mark in comparison to grenades.

Jugglign might stacks with elixirs is a double edged sword and requires an experienced player. Knowing when to move in and out of a fight is something almost unheard of on a necro because their abilities are hardly range dependent in the slightest. Understanding when to be, and when not to be, in kits, understanding how to kit swap properly and understanding how to react to every single class and spec is the bare MINIMUM for playing an HGH engi. Calling a necro harder is kinda crazy IMO and I object greatly >:(

The truth is, the HGH engie has the same things to worry about as any other class, just with some slight differences. Landing grenades on a moving target is hard but chucking grenades on an ongoing fight on a point? So easy I could do it blind.

I agree with you 100%. However in 90% of cases where I have the opportunity to chuck grenades onto a point I’ll choose not to because the engi becomes far, far more effective changing range around the fight and kiting. A lot of our pistol abilities are extremely strong but require us to be in near melee range to get the real effect.

THAT is the hallmark of a good engi IMO. Being able to survive while kiting in and out of a fight to maximize damage and focus fire. Simply spamming nades on a point is ineffective in comparison and very quickly becomes worthless once you throw about three in an HGH condi build.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Interesting that this became a discussion about engi v. necro difficulty.

What can be said about Necro relative to other classes is that their stun breaks are trash, they have no access to blocking, invulnerable, vigor, stealth, stun/daze (other than the minion elite which is not as good as plague or lich and warhorn 4 which is arguably the worst off hand for a necro regardless of if they are power or condi)or knock back (except when in Lich). That is a heavy price to pay for the utility of shroud. The class cannot do damage in any form as well as other classes, can’t support as well as other classes, can’t bunker as well as other classes, has no mobility, and if it is trained and chain CC’d can’t survive and can’t escape.

It isn’t that Necro is awful, infact it has better versatility than most classes. For a Necro to be truly effective in any role, though, it needs team support. All of the other classes have better ways to be self sufficient and easier ways to play.

That’s the problem right there. It NEEDS support moreso than any other class. If need be any class designed to be a teamfighter should hold its own in a 1v1 situation or should be able to roam very quickly.

Explicitly saying that X class/build is only useful around teammates makes that class or build worth far less than a class that can do just as well in a team fight but also roam with speed and efficacy.

For how much support necros NEED to survive they don’t bring very much to the table.

Arguing about skillcaps of different classes in this kind of a game is moot. Games like SC2 have a high skill cap. Mastering whatever class you choose to play in a game such as this is not a hard endeavor if you put in the time. Being good in this game is almost entirely derived from team composition/strategy/communication/chemisty.

Back on topic, I think Necros are misunderstood. Do engi’s dish out more raw condi DPS? Yes. Better condi application? Best in the game. More escape options and mobility. Again, very obviously yes. However Necro’s have better condi management (ask your guardian if he would appreciate a full condi cleanse from you), boon strips (strong in current meta), can fight at 100% effectiveness at max range and their AoE’s are much larger. Necro’s also have the best rez in the game.

What this basically amounts to is Engineers are stronger in small engagements and Necros are stronger in large team fights, relatively speaking. They also have great synergy together. Both have their strengths and weaknesses and I feel both are underrated on class tier lists that people put out.

Ostricheggs.3742:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Interesting that this became a discussion about engi v. necro difficulty.

What can be said about Necro relative to other classes is that their stun breaks are trash, they have no access to blocking, invulnerable, vigor, stealth, stun/daze (other than the minion elite which is not as good as plague or lich and warhorn 4 which is arguably the worst off hand for a necro regardless of if they are power or condi)or knock back (except when in Lich). That is a heavy price to pay for the utility of shroud. The class cannot do damage in any form as well as other classes, can’t support as well as other classes, can’t bunker as well as other classes, has no mobility, and if it is trained and chain CC’d can’t survive and can’t escape.

It isn’t that Necro is awful, infact it has better versatility than most classes. For a Necro to be truly effective in any role, though, it needs team support. All of the other classes have better ways to be self sufficient and easier ways to play.

That’s the problem right there. It NEEDS support moreso than any other class. If need be any class designed to be a teamfighter should hold its own in a 1v1 situation or should be able to roam very quickly.

Explicitly saying that X class/build is only useful around teammates makes that class or build worth far less than a class that can do just as well in a team fight but also roam with speed and efficacy.

For how much support necros NEED to survive they don’t bring very much to the table.

That’s what I don’t understand about a lot of these posts. As a condi necro I do not need any support in a 1v1. I usually come up on top vs most classes and builds. In a 2v1 i have no chance, but still can hold my point long enough for support to come with plague form.

Then in team fights we do need support because we get focused. But that’s only because the other team knows what condi/epidemic can do.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Ostricheggs.3742:

I know it’s an oversimplification and probably condescending. And no, it’s not aoe spam in tourneys. AoE spam is standing off a point and throwing nades on a point and hoping someone walks into them. actually LANDING grenades on a moving target actively engaging you requires far more skill than landing a mark in the same situation. Cluster bombs can (and should) be blown up mid air when over the target making them far easier to land because of the speed of the slow moving cluster bombs. Staff eles are just lol, I can’t really comment on them.

Must be really hard to land those on a small node, especially on a melee class, or someone trying to kite around on that tiny node in order to prevent it being uncapped, or especially (!) after using that whooping supply kit elite, rite?

The engi really has it all:
- OP cond damage which can only be parralleled by necros when a dozen of boons is corrupted successfully, or a dozen of cond stacks is returned successfully (how sad is dat),
- OP boon stacking (seen my fair share of engins running around with 25 might stacks and a handful of other boons at the same time),
- Good CC (moar knockbacks please),
- OP damage from both weap sets and the kitten turrets.
Talk about ritualist gone bad. At least it takes somewhat more skill ( I guess?) than a ritualist does, and than eles do, so that’s a plus.

Having said that, I really love playing with engis as a necro. Most likely my n1 choice of a ‘partner’ next to a good warrior that can quickly discern a corrupt on a stack of boons, including stability, and follows up with their damage.

P.S. Necro wand and dagger offhand aoe are a pain in the meow to land, because they hit with half a sec/one sec delay on top of their nearly 1 s cast time.

Some of what your posting isn’t accurate. For example good knockbacks. Grenade kit has no knockback, and so one would have to take rifle over p/p. Regretfully rifle reduces conditions.

Engies can have great conditions, or great knockbacks, not both at same time.

Login.5102:

That’s what I don’t understand about a lot of these posts. As a condi necro I do not need any support in a 1v1. I usually come up on top vs most classes and builds. In a 2v1 i have no chance, but still can hold my point long enough for support to come with plague form.

Then in team fights we do need support because we get focused. But that’s only because the other team knows what condi/epidemic can do.

If you just outskill the opponents you see, then this can happen, but against an equally skilled opponent you are unlikely to win that engagement (warriors aside) unless you spec solely to 1v1.

If you spec purely to 1v1, then you can do fine in that scenario even against equally skilled players, but consider that it is one of the least likely encounters you will face in a tPvP with 2v1, 1v2, 2v2,2v3, 3v2, 3v3 all being more likely (I have no stats to back this, but it feels accurate, do correct me if you have data). If you have spec’d to 1v1, then you are suboptimal in the more likely engagements, thus hurting your team a larger % of the time than helping.

The other issue is the time it takes you to kill. The longer it is, the more likely for enemy support to arrive. As a Necro you have very little potential for a viable burst if you are running conditions (what a terror chain for a few thousand that is completely mitigated by stun breakers, passive condition removals, well timed stability, etc), and even if you go for max condi damage and ignore survivability trying to win duels as fast as possible it takes a long time to push a kill compared to the classes that have better condition application and/or viable burst. Additionally, even if you do win a 1v1, but another foe shows up on the heels of one that you have just dispatched, then all your skills are on CD and you have no realistic means of escape versus an equally skilled opponent where other classes (except arguably guardian) have at least a chance of avoiding the engagement.

That is what Ostrich and I are getting at.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Interesting that this became a discussion about engi v. necro difficulty.

Anyway, Necro in all of its forms has a higher skill floor than engi, but the HGH engi and the viable necro builds both have high skill caps. I suppose it is a subjective debate with regards to this aspect of the discussion.

What can be said about Necro relative to other classes is that their stun breaks are trash, they have no access to blocking, invulnerable, vigor, stealth, stun/daze (other than the minion elite which is not as good as plague or lich and warhorn 4 which is arguably the worst off hand for a necro regardless of if they are power or condi)or knock back (except when in Lich). That is a heavy price to pay for the utility of shroud. The class cannot do damage in any form as well as other classes, can’t support as well as other classes, can’t bunker as well as other classes, has no mobility, and if it is trained and chain CC’d can’t survive and can’t escape.

It isn’t that Necro is awful, infact it has better versatility than most classes. For a Necro to be truly effective in any role, though, it needs team support. All of the other classes have better ways to be self sufficient and easier ways to play.

I would submit that the biggest problem with necro is that it is balanced around an assumption of passive damage from minions that no competent player is really using in any serious way, where other classes (I’m looking at Mesmer in particular) didn’t get the same treatment with respect to their ability to generate passive damage.

Warrior has block,immunity,vigor, stability,mobility, escapability(lol), stun/daze, and stun breaks. But Warrior is the worst class in pvp.

Why are mesmers up there? I guess in theory the aoe glamours could be good, but i mostly see mesmers just spamming shatters, which have a kittenty blast radius and require some huge sacrifices to survivability to be viable.

All eles have is aoe damage. Bunker eles fall like lead against condition-built characters with half a brain, and dps eles are just awful unless nobody sees them in the fight and they are free to rain hell.

The only good guardian build i’ve seen is one that has a lot of cc, and bunker guards can just be taken out by anyone with a balance of dps and condition damage with conditions taking precedence. Both engis and necros, in my experience, have no trouble making the most skilled bunker guard explode relatively quickly.

Ostricheggs.3742:

Vicarious.3047:

Yeah I don’t really think the “tier lists” have necros low cause the creators think they’re bad, but cause the other classes are either more useful or just OP in some regard.

I mean every tourney team needs a guardian to bunker, and most usually search for mesmers for home point guards cause they’re OP 1v1 and have portal, then thieves make the best burst cause they also have a lot of utility, and eles are simply OP in general so why not take several of them?

So I personally put necro after those 4 classes but ahead of engies, rangers, and obviously the UP warrior. But there are some frustratingly good engie builds coming out and due to the necros higher skill cap more people are favoring the engie now (higher then these newer engie builds, i know the engineer has an incredibly high skill cap in general, hold the flaming…).

Cam Ron.4170:

I have thief and warrior at the bottom but they can both be very good

That’s half true half false.

Thieves can be very useful in MANY different ways in small and large fights. Warriors on the other hand literally have NOTHING going for them, so no they can not be “very good.”

Also you didn’t even put mesmer on your list.

I personally see it like this:

TOP TIER:

-Ele
-Guardian
-Mesmer

MID TIER:

-Thief
-Necro
-Engie
-Ranger

LOW TIER:

-Warrior

And in that order, the first three are almost essential for tourney teams (with ele simply being OP, essential or not). The next four are all viable options in some way but are not necessary, an ele can replace any of them basically. Finally the warrior, there is no reason to take a warrior over any of the other classes.

I shall not hold the flaming sir. Necros are ez mode in comparison to HGH engis and are far inferior in general due to a lack of burning, lack of condi variety and lack of physical damage. They’re also less reactionary in the sense that their main damaging abilities are also their main CC and access to poison. Their lack of a stun break in builds running signet of undeath hampers their survivability immesnely. The “fix” to epidemic just kicked em while they were already down. While you could consider them “good”, other classes do their job and do it MUCH, MUUUUUUCH better.

But seriously, engis are not easy to play. God kittening kitten

QFT and Engi is pretty hard to play. :X

Necro should have access to burning. I mean there are STDs that cause burning o.O

miriforst.1290:

The point is an object, you can see this extra clear when a thief is attacking you with trickshot while you are defending the point. It will bounce between you and the point “entity” and back again (doubling their auto dps) as it recognises the point as belonging to the enemy and as it being an enemy. In the case of turrets they will keep from attacking it as long as you own it.

I suppose that isn’t intended..or is it.

miriforst.1290:

as for fighting turrets

hide spoiler

And for the net turret, yes it is pretty sweet, the general idea is to use deploy able turrets to throw them out of harms way of splash directed against you and when a single target, be it a necro without minions like the elite or a DD ele who thinks hes the boss they will be struck by imobilize, two stuns chaining followed by two knockdowns and more imobilize. While on fire. I’ve had some fun playing full turretineer but as soon as a mesmer shows his face (or a decent ranger for that matter) or anything with more than one target you are pretty screwed if they are at least not horrible. This also goes for 1vsX. One target is easy to stunlock so to speak, and you really need that to survive. So its a bunker, without the extreme durability of a bunker and that cant do well against more than 1 target at a time but that to compensate for this he/she can not only hold against you but also kill you should you rush into the fire without using los and planning to actually wreak havoc on his defense. If you are having problems versus a turret engineer, get out of there and kitten the situation: Where are his turrets? What types of turrets do he use? The net turret and rocket can be negated by bringing a minion to draw its fire (yes this sounds odd, but if you really feel like going in there solo use what tools are given), both the net and the rocket turret are quite squishy. Infact the only relatively “tanky” turret is the thumper turret which got a small pbaoe attack and is still brought down rather fast. What makes them durable is deplying them on walls and such to lessen splash, a power focused ranged class can simply take them down one by one from smart angles without the engineer being able to leave his safe nest (and do you trick him out of it hes in for a hell of a ride, he can actually have only 1 weapon and no utilities to fight you outside of the point if he is dedicated to it, and does not sacrifice a turret for toolkit. As for being condition based it works as well, just make sure to not rush headlong into an area defended by someone going dedicated for something which sole role is defending the point. His condition removal is probably lackluster (1 clunky cleanse on 60 sec cd on healing turret if he got it or 1 removal every 15 or so sec if bringing medkit instead ) so figure out the best angle of attack where you are not in LOS of his turrets and pressure him and the point to hell and beyond, just don’t rush onto the point like a tf2 scout on an intelligence and expect the engineer to just move along because you came. That’s what mesmers do. Also i don’t know if the necros ive encountered have noticed it, but the aoe drain in DS can be devastating against such a defense, its just that they never follow up on it and finish them off so they slowly regen again due to traits. But most of the time there is this thief/warrior/necro/elementalist etc. who just walks into an area that is more decorated by military technology than the us navy and expect me to hand over the keys without a fight who gets horribly slaughtered by the time they emerge from the umpteenth stun/launch/kd/immobilization. The philosophy is essentially tie them to the floor and pound them with everything from rockets to bullets. I won’t disagree that it can be tough for the necro to crack that point solo, but most of all i advise a plan of attack first, decide if you bring his turrets down slow but steady or if you want to keep out of the turrets range and focuse the engineer down first (the turrets die with the engineer). Or attack with a buddy and whipe the floor with him bigtime. But it is nice to be feared. :P

Ps. Have you tried the lich form elite just for that fight? i have no idea how that would work.

Hehe, that was a nice read. Made me chuckle :P
It’s so much like the prenerf GW1 ritualist spirit spam of doom.

I didn’t try lich in pvp as a condi nec, because the auto attack, and the rest of damage would be laughable on a cond damage/toughness/sr spec. I can imagine it’d own the turrets big time though (in a power spec), not only because of the aoe and the hard-hitting auto, but also because of the minion summoning.

Pity that tpvp isn’t worth it even on a casual note now that they in effect turned solo queuers into cannon fodder. Owell.

ReverendChan.8467:

Ostricheggs.3742:

Vicarious.3047:

Yeah I don’t really think the “tier lists” have necros low cause the creators think they’re bad, but cause the other classes are either more useful or just OP in some regard.

I mean every tourney team needs a guardian to bunker, and most usually search for mesmers for home point guards cause they’re OP 1v1 and have portal, then thieves make the best burst cause they also have a lot of utility, and eles are simply OP in general so why not take several of them?

So I personally put necro after those 4 classes but ahead of engies, rangers, and obviously the UP warrior. But there are some frustratingly good engie builds coming out and due to the necros higher skill cap more people are favoring the engie now (higher then these newer engie builds, i know the engineer has an incredibly high skill cap in general, hold the flaming…).

Cam Ron.4170:

I have thief and warrior at the bottom but they can both be very good

That’s half true half false.

Thieves can be very useful in MANY different ways in small and large fights. Warriors on the other hand literally have NOTHING going for them, so no they can not be “very good.”

Also you didn’t even put mesmer on your list.

I personally see it like this:

TOP TIER:

-Ele
-Guardian
-Mesmer

MID TIER:

-Thief
-Necro
-Engie
-Ranger

LOW TIER:

-Warrior

And in that order, the first three are almost essential for tourney teams (with ele simply being OP, essential or not). The next four are all viable options in some way but are not necessary, an ele can replace any of them basically. Finally the warrior, there is no reason to take a warrior over any of the other classes.

I shall not hold the flaming sir. Necros are ez mode in comparison to HGH engis and are far inferior in general due to a lack of burning, lack of condi variety and lack of physical damage. They’re also less reactionary in the sense that their main damaging abilities are also their main CC and access to poison. Their lack of a stun break in builds running signet of undeath hampers their survivability immesnely. The “fix” to epidemic just kicked em while they were already down. While you could consider them “good”, other classes do their job and do it MUCH, MUUUUUUCH better.

But seriously, engis are not easy to play. God kittening kitten

QFT and Engi is pretty hard to play. :X

Engi is like Necro: Easy to play,but hard to master

emon.1863:

Zenith , i have to disagree with you!
Necro is good example for class balance.
Necro can play most of the roles in game. The problem with necro is that other classes are still not in balance [same Ele].
With Necro you can deal good dmg while controlling enemy,can be great distance supporter with conditions and pretty good tank . Only thing that isnt working are Minions .
I understand that some classes can deal much more dmg and survive longer [acutaly only 2 classes can do that :Ele and Ranger], but it is only because of disbalance and nothing more.

Shame that most of the teams are using Necros exactly as you said, but Dager necros are really cool )

What does a dagger necro bring besides boon removal that another melee class doesn’t do better?

Engineers are better condition specs than necros, with better control and better bunkering ability.

Necro is just good at boon removal. Corrupt boon, marks from staff, and well of corruption is why they are brought.

Bleeding is the least threatening of all conditions. Confusion bombing+ burning hurt people far more, and in terms of poison an engineer can apply that reliably just as well.

The necro is extremely reliant on team support to not get rooted and trained to the ground. There’s basically nothing you can do to escape a focus fire outside using Plague or using the Wurm minion.

They should have never removed the death shroud teleport.

What I would like to say to anet:

So you decided to crap all over the best necro build by ruining our best skill (epidemic) whilst doing kitten all to compensate us (lower epidemic cast time should of been done).

Yeh have fun epidemicing with a 1 second cast time on an ele who has infinite dodges or vs a guardian who can throw up a block at any moment – hint – this is impossible to skillfully do because of the long cast time unlike corrupt boon which is fine.

We need some buffs to the necro now imo. (o yeh and not to kittening minions). Give us some buffs to the staff auto attack and give us reduced epidemic cast time.

Lordrosicky.5813:

What I would like to say to anet:

So you decided to crap all over the best necro build by ruining our best skill (epidemic) whilst doing kitten all to compensate us (lower epidemic cast time should of been done).

Yeh have fun epidemicing with a 1 second cast time on an ele who has infinite dodges or vs a guardian who can throw up a block at any moment – hint – this is impossible to skillfully do because of the long cast time unlike corrupt boon which is fine.

We need some buffs to the necro now imo. (o yeh and not to kittening minions). Give us some buffs to the staff auto attack and give us reduced epidemic cast time.

QFT

Given that poor necros have the lowest variety of conditions and the highest cooldowns of almost any condi classes, the only thing that made them even slightly decent was the fact that they could piggy-back off other classes condis (like eles and guards for burning). Now that epidemic was “fixed” it becomes a far less effective build with no compensation at all. It was hard to get off before; good players poop themselves when they see more than three damage condis and start cleansing or running. That’s not to mention the amount of AoE team cleanses flying around or the fact that all conditions are lost when a player goes down.

Getting a good epidemic off on a target was difficult before and now almost impossible.