Guild Wars 2

chaos just investigated , when you interrupt d/p thieve’s stealth combo their HS isnt put on usual 5sec cd (like anyone else’s), it just costs them 3init. this largely leaves their gameplay out of counters.

i wonder if other init based skills are interruption cd immune.

and id appreciate red response whether this is a bug, or by design.

No weapon skills are put on CD when interrupted.

It’s by design, not a bug.

nyqwist.2360:

No weapon skills are put on CD when interrupted.

It’s by design, not a bug.

i think they should. else thief gameplay largely remains beyond informed counter.

gesho.9468:

nyqwist.2360:

No weapon skills are put on CD when interrupted.

It’s by design, not a bug.

i think they should. else thief gameplay largely remains beyond informed counter.

Need to make this clear.

Interrupt will normally put that ability on a 5 secs CD.

Interrupt on a thief will cancel the attack and COST the thief the init to cast it.

I’m just going to state what I think about it too;

It’s stupid.

A-Net probably thought that having to activate the skill again when interrupted would be enough as a “punishment” since you would have to spend twice as much initiative for one skill, as the initiative acts like a resource instead of a cooldown.

Theoretically that would be perfectly fine, but in reality it is not. Because of two reasons;

1. You loose initiative, not pressure or not survivability. Whilst initiative equals this, it’s first when you’re on ZERO that the consequences will apply. It’s easy to disengage before this happens.

2. The initiative loss only applies on channeling movement skills (heartseeker). So called “stationary” channel skills are left with the initiative remained, for example, pistol whip, black powder, choking gas and body shot. This obviously means that the interrupt is in a way, useless.

A three second cooldown is a lot of time for a glasscannon. Imagine a S/P thief not being able to PW for three seconds, what kind of counterplay that would present. If it would atleast consume the 5 initiative, you would have to be somewhat more careful about the mindless spamming.

Weapon skills are also not affected by chill, which is a huge deal as well.

It’s been said so many times that the initative system is broken, which is true. I think it’s a innovative system which could be balanced to a great state, but as it is right now, I would rather have thief as it is removed.

I’ve mained thief for a decent while on a decent level, so I would say my opinions are decently credible.

MIrra.3604:

Interrupt on a thief will cancel the attack and COST the thief the init to cast it.

Not really, it basicly only applies on heartseeker. It would also apply on flanking strike, but that’s a evade, so it doesnt

nyqwist.2360:

MIrra.3604:

Interrupt on a thief will cancel the attack and COST the thief the init to cast it.

Not really, it basicly only applies on heartseeker. It would also apply on flanking strike, but that’s a evade, so it doesnt

You saying PW is not interruptable?

He’s saying most thief attacks do not cost initiative when interrupted before they are executed. Heartseeker used to be the same, before people abused it to perma Heartseeker for mobility by cancelling the ability before it ended.

That’s when Heartseeker was changed to have its initiative cost up front and that’s the reason why interrupting it will still cost the thief initiative. If you interrupt a Pistol Whip before the stun has been executed, the thief does not lose initiative. If you interrupt it at the end of the 3rd whirl, the initiative will have already been expended, though the benefit for doing so is marginal at best.

MIrra.3604:

nyqwist.2360:

MIrra.3604:

Interrupt on a thief will cancel the attack and COST the thief the init to cast it.

Not really, it basicly only applies on heartseeker. It would also apply on flanking strike, but that’s a evade, so it doesnt

You saying PW is not interruptable?

Ah, I guess i didnt make it clear that it was the iniative part that’s not true, even though you can interrupt it and cancel the attack. Read my post, I have some more information there. My bad

MIrra.3604:

You saying PW is not interruptable?

it is interrupt-able with negligible consequences. if you interrupt ele fire grub or engi healing combo, its game over. if you interrupt pw, there is another one coming 5 init down the road.

gesho.9468:

MIrra.3604:

You saying PW is not interruptable?

it is interrupt-able with negligible consequences. if you interrupt ele fire grub or engi healing combo, its game over. if you interrupt pw, there is another one coming 5 init down the road.

Why are you comparing it to healing abilities now?

Oh well, let me ask you how do you interupt a guardian shelter?

MIrra.3604:

Oh well, let me ask you how do you interupt a guardian shelter?

You can use the traited fearmark as a necromancer to interrupt the guardians shelter.

MIrra.3604:

Why are you comparing it to healing abilities now?
Oh well, let me ask you how do you interupt a guardian shelter?

every prof has blocks, but no prof has interruption (cd) immunity over their entire weapon skill set. its not as if here is one (with 30 sec cd) thief skills, which is immune. it is a backbone gameplay (stealth), which can not be essentially countered.

and its not about hs alone. stimes i might want to interrupt even dagger autoattack. or can i interrupt sb #2 spam? anything?

it’s just too many goodies for one child. this is imba.

Wasting a thief’s initiative is counterplay.

Dahkeus.8243:

Wasting a thief’s initiative is counterplay.

not so much. it’s barely a dent. gameplay (stealth, reset) is essentially intact. interrupts are precious, they are supposed to be one-or-two-per-engagement game changing skills. not so much against thieves.

gesho.9468:

Dahkeus.8243:

Wasting a thief’s initiative is counterplay.

not so much. it’s barely a dent. gameplay (stealth, reset) is essentially intact. interrupts are precious, they are supposed to be one-or-two-per-engagement game changing skills. not so much against thieves.

Interrupts in GW1 were big and important. An interrupt on a heal or stomp can be clutch in GW2, but outside of that, they don’t matter nearly as much as just simply stunning or dazing.

Thief seems to be the flavor of the month for the forums to complain about. Some of these complaints are based on legitimate concerns, but there’s also a lot of random complaint threads that are really just riding that wave of dissent with nonsense like this one.

Dahkeus.8243:

Thief seems to be the flavor of the month for the forums to complain about. Some of these complaints are based on legitimate concerns, but there’s also a lot of random complaint threads that are really just riding that wave of dissent with nonsense like this one.

Oh, so you feel like my post was nothing but nonsense? It’s simply the truth, thieves are not even close to as affected by interrupts as the other professions are.

I’m a open minded person, if you’re going to throw out theese kind of things and actually do have some arguments or a bit of reason behind what you’re saying I can change my mind. The problem is that you don’t, at the moment atleast

nyqwist.2360:

Dahkeus.8243:

Thief seems to be the flavor of the month for the forums to complain about. Some of these complaints are based on legitimate concerns, but there’s also a lot of random complaint threads that are really just riding that wave of dissent with nonsense like this one.

Oh, so you feel like my post was nothing but nonsense? It’s simply the truth, thieves are not even close to as affected by interrupts as the other professions are.

I’m a open minded person, if you’re going to throw out theese kind of things and actually do have some arguments or a bit of reason behind what you’re saying I can change my mind. The problem is that you don’t, at the moment atleast

Ok, here are my arguments:
1) Interrupting a weapon skill isn’t a big deal.
2) Interrupting a HS when a thief is stealthing for 5 seconds would be much, much, much more punishing than just kicking a regular attack skill of another profession for 5 seconds.
3) Reducing the ini pool of a thief is counterplay, even if you wish it was more penalizing than it is.

Out of curiosity.. In regards to the D/P Blackpowder+Heartseeker combo, how debilitating to the thief is it if you interrupt the HS and cost them 9 initiative? Do they still have a lot of options afterwards? Gesho had asked if they could still combo stealth from Cluster Bomb but Im thinking now thats too much initative cost in too little time? … I really needa play thief more.

(Also, interrupting the thief heal is glorious. Not withdraw of course, the one that grants stealth.)

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Out of curiosity.. In regards to the D/P Blackpowder+Heartseeker combo, how debilitating to the thief is it if you interrupt the HS and cost them 9 initiative? Do they still have a lot of options afterwards? Gesho had asked if they could still combo stealth from Cluster Bomb but Im thinking now thats too much initative cost in too little time? … I really needa play thief more.

(Also, interrupting the thief heal is glorious. Not withdraw of course, the one that grants stealth.)

chaos, should we count 9 init as cost? for bp is still there, isnt it? only 3 init lost (from that single interrupted HS), and normally thief would still have enough init to x2 HS in the same old bp. that’s what needs to be prevented. if BP was gone and whole thing was to be started anew (after a while), that’s what i would call fair.

gesho.9468:

chaos, should we count 9 init as cost? for bp is still there, isnt it? only 3 init lost (from that single interrupted HS), and normally thief would still have enough init to x2 HS in the same old bp. that’s what needs to be prevented. if BP was gone and whole thing was to be started anew (after a while), that’s what i would call fair.

What do you mean “normally thief would still have enough init to x2 HS” ? Are you talking about a 15 initiative Thief? Someone that did nothing at all so far? The first reaction the thief that did nothing yet had when he saw you was start his flee combo?

Can you prevent a “no CD at all so far” warrior from escaping by interrupting a single of their skill? No.

Dahkeus.8243:

Ok, here are my arguments:
3) Reducing the ini pool of a thief is counterplay, even if you wish it was more penalizing than it is.

a very negligible counterplay (3/15 init gone) for interrupting a backbone mechanics. you come with a gun, i come with a spoon. you can call both weapons, but it’s not a level playing field.

Dahkeus.8243:

Ok, here are my arguments:
1) Interrupting a weapon skill isn’t a big deal.
2) Interrupting a HS when a thief is stealthing for 5 seconds would be much, much, much more punishing than just kicking a regular attack skill of another profession for 5 seconds.
3) Reducing the ini pool of a thief is counterplay, even if you wish it was more penalizing than it is.

But you see, that’s not arguments, that’s statements. But I’ll respond to them anyways

1. It is a big deal. You should simply understand that by interrupting a skill that’s supposed to be used for a purpose will ofcourse put that specific person in a un-optimal spot that he doesnt wanna be in for 3 seconds. This could range from a elementalist that needs to remove those last ticks of burning from a dying ally with cleansing wave, to a mesmer interrupting a stomp or ress with illusionary wave.

2. Yes, this is true. The dagger mainhand is in a better spot balance-wise compared to the sword, where the real issue is. Ofcourse, that doesnt make the concept of being able to activate the skill again fine, though it is a lot more punishing.

3. But I qoute myself;

The initiative loss only applies on channeling movement skills (heartseeker). So called “stationary” channel skills are left with the initiative remained, for example, pistol whip, black powder, choking gas, body shot and in a way, flanking strike. This obviously means that the interrupt is in a way, useless.

A three second cooldown is a lot of time for a glasscannon. Imagine a S/P thief not being able to PW for three seconds, what kind of counterplay that would present. If it would atleast consume the 5 initiative, you would have to be somewhat more careful about the mindless spamming.

It seems like you are a thief, mainly playing dagger-pistol which you want to defend. I would agree that it’s more balanced than S/X and more counterplay exists as well, but there is no way that interrupting black powder measures up the efficieny of doing so to other professions.

stof.9341:

What do you mean “normally thief would still have enough init to x2 HS” ? Are you talking about a 15 initiative Thief? Someone that did nothing at all so far? The first reaction the thief that did nothing yet had when he saw you was start his flee combo?

Can you prevent a “no CD at all so far” warrior from escaping by interrupting a single of their skill? No.

does this thief has any init whatsoever? if he can stealth, at least once, he most likely got reset.

also, not just HS should be subject to same interrupt rules. sb#2. PW. you name it. you say thief should not be spammy? then pay for skilled interrupts. and init cost doesnt cut it. pay means, when interrupted in backbone mechanics, game should really turn against you.

gesho.9468:

does this thief has any init whatsoever? if he can stealth, at least once, he most likely got reset.

If you interrupt the thief HS once, then that thief required having 12 initiative to do a second HS anyway to stealth. That’s a far cry from “any init whatsoever”. That’s in fact a full initiative bar.

If the thief didn’t have a full initiative bar in the first place, which tends to happen very quickly if he’s trying to do any threatening action at all, then that interrupt you did would prevent him from doing the second HS in the first place.

stof.9341:

If you interrupt the thief HS once, then that thief required having 12 initiative to do a second HS anyway to stealth. That’s a far cry from “any init whatsoever”. That’s in fact a full initiative bar.

If the thief didn’t have a full initiative bar in the first place, which tends to happen very quickly if he’s trying to do any threatening action at all, then that interrupt you did would prevent him from doing the second HS in the first place.

Dec 10: Increased the base rate of initiative gain from .75 per second to 1 per second.

even if he has 1 init after interrupt (which is extreme), that blinding powder will be there for another 4-1 sec (from which melee enemy better stay away from anyway), and with buffed regen he still gets stealth. meanwhile he can safely melee you while blinding, or (if you are ranged) switch to sb, auto you and sb#2 in the end. and i’m talking about most unfavorable (to thief) situation, with base init pool only, and 0 init after interrupt. still can reset.

True, but the main point stands : a thief that at worse was out of initiative after Black Powder => HS is a thief that was at 9 initiative before he decided to flee. IE, he was nearly at full initiative and so obviously didn’t use much in the first place.

Also please note that you can prevent Shortbow #2 from stealthing him by getting hit by the blast in that case :p

Hi, I play a thief and can confirm that interrupts causing the skill to go on a 3-second CD rather than draining my initiative would be a huge buff to the D/P weapon set I use (not so much for S/P users). My suggestion to all the forum theorycrafters is to spend some time playing the professions you make these brilliant suggestions for. This helps in two ways – teaches you how the class works (as clearly, you have 0 idea) and helps you counter it whenever you come across this class.
My qualm with pistol whip is the fact that it takes little skill to execute. As much as I’d like this FOTM build to be nerfed, you guys have to understand that as a thief, there really isn’t much you can do with most of your weapon skills, as not all weapon sets synergize as well as the current D/P does. Take a look at a few sets:

S/P: Good auto-attack, utility port for slot #2, good damage/CC for 3, .25 sec situational daze on 4 and a situational blind field from 5 (one you can still melee through, btw). The only option a thief has to pressure an opponent with this set is either the 3 skill or the auto-attacks.

S/D: Good auto-attack, utility port on 2, good damage/evade on 3, situational cripple on 4, situational stealth on 5.

compared to

D/P: Good auto-attack, gap closer/finisher/leap on 2, gap closer with blind with good damage on 3, situational interrupt on 4, situational blind field and on demand stealth on 5 (the stealth actually helps this weapon set, so it’s not useless compared to say S/D).
A D/P thief would rely on everything from Shadow Shot to Backstab to auto-attacks and interrupts and blind fields to pressure an opponent. S/D or S/P on the other hand rarely get to use their other skills.
Now, in case of the weapon sets that are not D/P, if you interrupt the only damaging ability a thief has, that would be absolutely detrimental as that only skill that the thief is using does a lot for the thief. This would be okay if the other skill slots helped pressuring your opponent or defending yourself. But that’s really not the case.

Forget the numbers and just know that if you interrupt a thief that is trying to Heartseeker through his Black Powder, that it is probably the most effective interrupt you can do in this game after rezz/stomp and heal interrupts.

Heartseeker has an activation time of .75s itself and the thief will have to quickly de-target you, wait for the daze/stun to end and do a 180 degree turn to take advantage of the Black Powder. You can barely do this in time, if your reflexes are top notch, especially if you are crippled or chilled.

You will, as a consequence, observe how many thieves will try to shadow step into their black powder for the Heartseeker to speed up things, because losing the Black Powder and the Heartseeker is a loss of 9 initiative, which is huge and on top of that, not only will they be horribly out of position for the time it takes them to recoup, but they will also not be able to deal any meaningful damage to you.

Rome.3192 no-one said anything about no init cost, ofc it should cost init. i do have some experience with d/p thief (and other thief builds too), around 200 spvp thief games (mostly d/p, my fav thief) and lvl 40 pve questing. i feel while nothing particularly is op, a little bit of everything adds up to too much in the sum. especially i hate when you succeed in bringing thief down and then he vanishes in thin air.

@Slim.3024 interrupting chain is not that easy either. if you succeed, imo there should be no more chances for thief.

• you fought, you brought him down, he didnt
• thief gets 2nd chance with stealth-shadowstep, okay, i guess this much is fair
• you shot that 2nd chance down
• there should be no 3rd chance, too much.

gesho.9468:

Rome.3192 no-one said anything about no init cost, ofc it should cost init.

So you want that the interrupts should cost the thief initiative while putting the skill on CD while for other classes, the interrupt just puts the skill on CD? Why the thief hate, brah?

gesho.9468:

especially i hate when you succeed in bringing thief down and then he vanishes in thin air.

Sounds like a player skill issue.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Out of curiosity.. In regards to the D/P Blackpowder+Heartseeker combo, how debilitating to the thief is it if you interrupt the HS and cost them 9 initiative? Do they still have a lot of options afterwards?

In a thief vs thief fight, which is somewhat common in matches, there are a couple things you want to interrupt to secure the kill and get the most easy 100 – 0 situation possible. That is to interrupt the heartseeker, and to interrupt their heal. Both of these situations can be more easily accomplished by simply reading your opponent and learning how they operate. For example, do they always pop blackpowder right after they get revealed? Do they always pop their heal right after they shadowstep away from a bassi backstab? That sort of thing.

In short, interrupts on a d/p thief will kill a thief if the opponent is good and knows how to take advantage of it.

Another critical component, outside of interruptions, is to land the immob from surprise shot. 2 seconds of immob is very powerful.

What you guys fail to realise is that initiative is a cooldown mechanic. If you interrupt the HS into BP then you have cost them 3 initiative which takes 3 seconds to regenerate passively. That means that every time you interrupt a Thief skill that costs initiative, you take away from them the amount of seconds it requires to get it back.

Not to mention that if they dropped BP and then you interrupted HS, they’ve lost 9 initiative, which is a 9 second cooldown to regain.

I seriously can’t explain this in any other way. Thief = interruptible, just like every other profession.

Incurafy.6329:

What you guys fail to realise is that initiative is a cooldown mechanic. If you interrupt the HS into BP then you have cost them 3 initiative which takes 3 seconds to regenerate passively. That means that every time you interrupt a Thief skill that costs initiative, you take away from them the amount of seconds it requires to get it back.

Not to mention that if they dropped BP and then you interrupted HS, they’ve lost 9 initiative, which is a 9 second cooldown to regain.

I seriously can’t explain this in any other way. Thief = interruptible, just like every other profession.

^ best explanation!!!

I wish the PvP forums would be divided between solo/TQ and Hotjoins… would improve discussions so much.

I hate on Pistol Whip as much as the next guy, but yeah, losing initiative is enough punishment in my opinion

The correct is:

• To loose initiative in start of skill (The thief will loose initiative when canceled).
• If disabled, the weapon skills will enter in CD (disable need affects all classes, without exception)

Maybe there should be a delay on initiative regen for the duration of the interrupt.

Morderger.6298:

Maybe there should be a delay on initiative regen for the duration of the interrupt.

Maybe other classes should have their weapons cooldowns freezed for 5s each time they are interrupted?

nyqwist.2360:

MIrra.3604:

Oh well, let me ask you how do you interupt a guardian shelter?

You can use the traited fearmark as a necromancer to interrupt the guardians shelter.

Even though it’s the most niche way to interrupt shelter( greater marks in spvp :@)
Yet on the necromancers side, Fear doesn’t interrupt ^^.. mechanics in this game man..

Not sure why people trying to justify their own opinion while never put themselves in Thief’s shoe.

It is true that D/P, D/S and S/P are strong when speced right but the real problem does NOT lie here.

Incurafy.6329:

What you guys fail to realise is that initiative is a cooldown mechanic. If you interrupt the HS into BP then you have cost them 3 initiative which takes 3 seconds to regenerate passively. That means that every time you interrupt a Thief skill that costs initiative, you take away from them the amount of seconds it requires to get it back.

Not to mention that if they dropped BP and then you interrupted HS, they’ve lost 9 initiative, which is a 9 second cooldown to regain.

I seriously can’t explain this in any other way. Thief = interruptible, just like every other profession.

“Thief = interruptible, just like every other profession.”
This is not true.

For this to be true when a thief is interrupted he should lose 5 iniciative (= 5seconds cd) and the skill must be on cd for those 5 seconds. When those 5 seconds end they have the skill and the iniciative again. This is how it works on every other profession.

edit= if a skill uses 6 ini and is interrupted, the thief should only lose 5 ini and not 6+5=11 ini. Just to be clear.

If you make a mistake with another class you are punished by game cd mechanic , Thieves, to be on par with other classes, should gain initiative with X skills to be able to use more powerful skills, now, is a Burst skill spam.

after giving a second thought to what @Rome was saying, if going by analogy with the rest of profs, it would indeed be fair to refund init upon interrupt and put skill on 5 sec cd. but true, that would be a buff (which under current circumstances is no-no). so in the end, i guess keep it as it is. but overall thief is a little too much.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Another critical component, outside of interruptions, is to land the immob from surprise shot. 2 seconds of immob is very powerful.

what would follow sb#1 immob? you cant backstab after that, can you? i mean you prob just did bp, which means you just swapped weapon. unless you have separate smoke field from skill slot. and even then it would be clunky. sb#2 & 4?

gesho.9468:

what would follow sb#1 immob?

After a Shortbow 1 Immob, its usually followed up by a clusterbomb, or a poison field (usually if the target blocks with a shield or something), or a steal item skill like mace crack, throw goop, ice shard, etc. With D/P trickery, sometimes they steal up to them with a point blank clusterbomb shot because they know they can get a free steal off (which landing your steal is critical for D/P trickery).

Thieves rarely use clusterbomb in blackpowder in combat unless they wish to stealth a downed ally to prevent a stomp.

Dahkeus.8243:

Wasting a thief’s initiative is counterplay.

It is only counter play if the initiative resource can be easily wasted, and regenerated at a moderate rate. Currently their is a plethora of skills that help reduce, regen and resupply initiative. This diminishes the notion of counter play. When paired with the fact that many thief ‘gives’ have little to no tells and other mechanics such as stealth not being revealed on blocked hits creates a situation where universal balance idea’s will always be unbalanced due to the fact that one profession operates in a completely different way to all the rest. The strongest balancing feature of gw1 was cooldown/energy cost of all skills in game. Whether they were augmented by adrenaline or not, the cooldown/energy cost feature was the common link mechanic that all professions operated off of. This meant interrupts held the same punishing effect on any profession if you managed to interrupt the wing nut skill/heal to their build.

Incurafy.6329:

…
Not to mention that if they dropped BP and then you interrupted HS, they’ve lost 9 initiative, which is a 9 second cooldown to regain.
….

lol sure.

bp is a field with a duration. u dont use it for the blinding projectile. so only initiative for hs is wasted… good try

Did you miss the part of the entire thief class design where they don’t have weapon skill cooldowns?

Chicago Jack.5647:

After a Shortbow 1 Immob, its usually followed up by a clusterbomb, or a poison field (usually if the target blocks with a shield or something), or a steal item skill like mace crack, throw goop, ice shard, etc. With D/P trickery, sometimes they steal up to them with a point blank clusterbomb shot because they know they can get a free steal off (which landing your steal is critical for D/P trickery).

Thieves rarely use clusterbomb in blackpowder in combat unless they wish to stealth a downed ally to prevent a stomp.

I thought steal was one move that was nearly guaranteed for thief. its insta, isnt it? if you see target shielded, just wait it out. what other counter does steal has, other then some perfectly timed prescience, which might easily waste dodge/evade/etc?

gesho.9468:

I thought steal was one move that was nearly guaranteed for thief.

This is one of the things that separates the good players from the bad. Again, it’s a thing about reading your target. D/P Trickery thieves are forced to do this, especially against other thieves, and have been forced to do this for a while now. D/P Shadow arts is laughably predictable, though – espeically those which insta blackpowder into heartseeker. Does the thief always immediately attack out of stealth? Does he not attack? If not, how long does he usually wait? You can also try to bait it out by about facing, then dodge roll, then about face again and then activate your defenses and whail in the area if you see an evasion on you. Against thieves, I usually bait it out, evade, then activate blackpowder. It’s not easy to deal with, but it can be done as long as no panicking happens.